Clubs divided over future LOI format?

[peadar1987]

I can't see what the attraction of such a league would be to, for example, SPL clubs. Say what you like about Scottish football (and I'm not a fan myself), but they have a fully functioning, internally coherent football culture. They might like the idea of an away cup trip to Ireland, but that'd be about it.

Iinteresting to see the Shamrock Rovers's Chairman making an essentially similar argument for a cross-national league as our own FD clubs are currently making for a single division.

I think the only attraction for the Scottish clubs would be the potential for a greater market, and more money further down the line. Short term, over the first decade or two, it wouldn't be to their advantage. Over a longer timescale, strength in numbers and all that.

An all-Ireland league would probably boost attendances a little bit, to be fair, how much less attractive a fixture than SD Galway are Ballinamallard? You could hardly get a lower attendance, but big games such as those involving Linfield would probably attract decent crowds.

If it ever goes ahead, the big advantage won't be something inherent about an all-Ireland league, it will be the chance to launch it as a completely new competition to the Irish public, separate from the LOI and IL they have already dismissed beyond recovery.

[marinobohs]

I think the only attraction for the Scottish clubs would be the potential for a greater market, and more money further down the line. Short term, over the first decade or two, it wouldn't be to their advantage. Over a longer timescale, strength in numbers and all that.

An all-Ireland league would probably boost attendances a little bit, to be fair, how much less attractive a fixture than SD Galway are Ballinamallard? You could hardly get a lower attendance, but big games such as those involving Linfield would probably attract decent crowds.

If it ever goes ahead, the big advantage won't be something inherent about an all-Ireland league, it will be the chance to launch it as a completely new competition to the Irish public, separate from the LOI and IL they have already dismissed beyond recovery.

I actually agree with the idea of a celtic league and believe now may well be a good time to look at doing something. fresh chance to promote "new" shiny entity. increased level of interest with new clubs etc. timing may also be good as SPL teams come to terms with the (financial) loss of Rangers and the two horse race becoming a one horse race. They may well be prepared to look at a radical change rather than maintain the Status Quo while they still have a fanbase.

Would have to be a ten team division(s) for me, to keep down travel costs and to make it manageable in the early years, Who would get the golden tickets will be great fun :o so perhaps a cup competition for one season would not be a bad idea.

[pineapple stu]

Scottish clubs won't touch a Celtic League with a ten-foot bargepole. Anyone who reckons otherwise is deluding themselves. Rangers will be back in the SPL in three years' time. In the meantime, there's effectively an extra European spot going. Scotland - like England - values tradition way too much to think a Celtic League is a panacea.

So if we're going to join up with Wales and the North, it'll add nothing to what we have now.

[Charlie Darwin]

From what I understand a Celtic league would not affect the number of places being allocated to each country in UEFA competitions.

[pineapple stu]

Weird. How would that work - top Irish side gets the Champions' League spot? Last Irish side in the Cup gets a UEFA Cup spot?

My point though was that Rangers being gone from the SPL is offset to an extent by an effective extra place for the smaller clubs to compete for - Motherwell in this year's Champions' League, for example. So Rangers' demotion isn't a complete disaster for the SPL.

Granted, their coefficient may well fall far enough that they lose that place anyway.

[Dodge]

From what I understand a Celtic league would not affect the number of places being allocated to each country in UEFA competitions.

IS 'what you understand' based on a couple of speculative articles recently? not like there's been anything seriusly discussed

[Charlie Darwin]

Weird. How would that work - top Irish side gets the Champions' League spot? Last Irish side in the Cup gets a UEFA Cup spot?

My point though was that Rangers being gone from the SPL is offset to an extent by an effective extra place for the smaller clubs to compete for - Motherwell in this year's Champions' League, for example. So Rangers' demotion isn't a complete disaster for the SPL.

Granted, their coefficient may well fall far enough that they lose that place anyway.
I'd imagine so. I think Scottish clubs would prefer to have the biannual fixture at home to Rangers than the remote possibility of European football. One side might benefit but the other 5 or so lose an important source of revenue.


IS 'what you understand' based on a couple of speculative articles recently? not like there's been anything seriusly discussed
Based on the fact that UEFA have no reason to reduce the number of clubs in European competition and the fact that Liechtenstein's highest ranked team is accommodated in the Europa League.

[pineapple stu]

Liechtenstein's team qualified via the Cup. They have their own Cup competition. Vaduz tend to win the Cup every year and are also about four divisions higher than any other Liechtenstein team. Vadus weren't in Europe this year cos they lost the Cup last year (first time since 97)

[mypost]

Anyone who reckons otherwise is deluding themselves. Rangers will be back in the SPL in three years' time.

You seem to be certain of that. They're not even winning the fourth tier atm.

[pineapple stu]

They should easily come up. Their latest signing scored twice on his debut, two days after scoring for Hearts in Anfield in the UEFA Cup. With the likes of Kevin Kyle, Neil Alexander, Lee McCullough and Andrew Little, they'll be grand. It's every opponent's biggest game ever, so naturally their opponents will be really up for it. But through in all the Cups, including a double against First Division Falkirk, and 17 goals in four home games says they'll be up. Once they get used to playing in pokey little grounds, they'll start walking the leagues.

[mypost]

Atm, it's all new to them. But the novelty will wear off soon. They are struggling away from home, playing in front of small crowds and small grounds eventually takes it's toll, and they'll end up being dragged down to their opponents level. That's before you mention all the players who have walked out and drastic reductions made in their budget. It's going to be a long hard road back to the big league for Rangers, and much more difficult than some people assume,

[Sam_Heggy]

So it's official, Glasgow Rangers are playing their football in a mediocre league with poor footballers...

Just like last season.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Interesting thread. Or has become with that IT story.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0901/1224323462066.html

Obviously have no time for The Rangers/Sevco etc. However they should walk that division.

And their current side is probably just about good enough to beat even an LOI 'Select'.

Not that I'd want them to...

[pineapple stu]

much more difficult than some people assume,
It's the Scottish Third Division FFS. If Gretna could cruise from the Third to the Premier, Rangers can.

The players who've walked are irrelevant; it's the players who they have who are important.

And they're getting the same crowds for East Stirling as they were for Hearts, so the budget will be plenty big enough to get back into the Premier without a bother.

[peadar1987]

The real challenge for them will come when they get back to the SPL and find themselves unable to compete with Celtic, and possibly Dundee United, Aberdeen, Hibs, or Hearts for a few seasons. The crowds might turn up to see them hammer Annan Athletic, but watching them struggle to fourth place in the league might have a worse effect.

[Real ale Madrid]

The real challenge for them will come when they get back to the SPL and find themselves unable to compete with Celtic, and possibly Dundee United, Aberdeen, Hibs, or Hearts for a few seasons. .

What makes you think they wouldn't be able to compete with Dundee Utd / Hibs / Aberdeen etc when the return to the SPL ? They will probably beat Motherwell in the cup in a few weeks - Motherwell who are currently top of the SPL.

[peadar1987]

What makes you think they wouldn't be able to compete with Dundee Utd / Hibs / Aberdeen etc when the return to the SPL ? They will probably beat Motherwell in the cup in a few weeks - Motherwell who are currently top of the SPL.

Because they will have had four seasons of reduced revenue, and the other clubs will have been picking up TV money and European windfalls. I think it will take Rangers a few more years to catch up with them.

[Real ale Madrid]

TV money

Rangers have already been on TV more times than all the other clubs you mention above combined and its only the 4th of September


European windfalls.

How much money do they get exactly for getting knocked out in the 1st qualifying round they enter ?

[Dodge]

The Europa Clubs got €90k, Motherwell will get €200k (ish)

[Real ale Madrid]

Thanks! But more of a rhetorical question for Peadar and his "european windfalls" now that Rangers are out of the SPL!

[Dodge]

Thanks! But more of a rhetorical question for Peadar and his "european windfalls" now that Rangers are out of the SPL!

its hard to tell whats rhetorical and what's serious in this thread. There's 10+ posts on whether rangers will qualify out of the Scottish 4th tier FFS

[Spudulika]

How much are they in debt? As in, how much can they actually afford to pay players, even despite the big crowds etc.

[peadar1987]

Rangers have already been on TV more times than all the other clubs you mention above combined and its only the 4th of September

I thought they were under the standard SFL TV rights deal though. As in they'd get the same as any other club in Division 3, no matter how often they were on TV. I know the extra exposure will earn them more in advertising, but I doubt it's enough to offset the loss.

This (http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/spl-loses-17m-in-tv-deal-1198156) source, seems to suggest that the SPL will be splitting £50m between the 12 clubs over the next 5 years, whereas the SFL will be splitting £15m between 30 clubs over the same time period.

If Rangers get back-to-back promotions all the way to the SPL in three years, they'll still have lost out on roughly £2m, which is a lot in SPL terms.



How much money do they get exactly for getting knocked out in the 1st qualifying round they enter ?
No need for sarcasm.

And no reason to assume that the runners-up will be knocked out in the first qualifying round each year they enter as well.

[Real ale Madrid]

If Rangers get back-to-back promotions all the way to the SPL in three years, they'll still have lost out on roughly £2m, which is a lot in SPL terms.


Can't for the life of me see how a £2m difference in revenue in 3 years is going to hinder competitiveness when Rangers get back into the SPL. Especially when you compare Rangers' other revenue streams with Aberdeen/Hibs/Hearts etc.



No need for sarcasm.


Don't be so sensitive - the assertion that Rangers will lose out on "european windfalls" to other SPL clubs, looking at SPL clubs abysmal record in europe this year, Celtic aside, is ridiculous, and has no basis in reality whatsoever. In fact I think Rangers would have a better chance in Europe themselves if they qualified through the cup - if it weren't for the fact that they are banned.

[pineapple stu]

If Rangers get back-to-back promotions all the way to the SPL in three years, they'll still have lost out on roughly £2m, which is a lot in SPL terms.
If they can sign starting players from Hearts when they're in the Third Division, they'll have no problems building a squad capable of second when they get back to the SPL. Whether they can challenge Celtic - in the immediate term anyway - is another matter.


How much are they in debt? As in, how much can they actually afford to pay players, even despite the big crowds etc.
They're not in any debt. It's a new company. Only issue is that there's now a transfer embargo on them (I think it came into effect on deadline day, which is why they could sign yer man Templeton)

[El-Pietro]

they cant sign any new players until January 2014 (dunno about free agents though?)

[Sam_Heggy]

The League Of Ireland - where fans of clubs get fed up talking about fixing their own broken league and move onto solving the crisis at Rangers.

[ArdeeBhoy]

How much are they in debt? As in, how much can they actually afford to pay players, even despite the big crowds etc.

They have the potential of still having to pay part of an almost £100 million+ VAT bill still, surely?

[pineapple stu]

Why? Company went into liquidation, new company formed. Same as Cork and Derry, who haven't needed to pay (financially) for their old clubs' messes.

[Hibs4Ever]

Why? Company went into liquidation, new company formed. Same as Cork and Derry, who haven't needed to pay (financially) for their old clubs' messes.

Still same club

http://www.scottishfootballleague.com/club/rangers/

[pineapple stu]

"New company formed", I said.

Let's not start all this again though...

[ArdeeBhoy]

Except some of the people involved in the 'new' club were involved in the old one...

And Rangers fans will tell you they're the 'same' club...

[Charlie Darwin]

Still same club

http://www.scottishfootballleague.com/club/rangers/
It's the same club because Sevco bought the intellectual property rights and the league ratified it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Derry and Cork (after a year as Cork City Foras Co-op) are in the same boat.

[Mr A]

Which all goes to prove that even the average LOI fan gives more of a %&^* about the Scottish 3rd division than they do about the 1st division of their own league.

[BonnieShels]

No no... You have that all wrong. They don't give a %&^* they give a %&^*&#

[Schumi]

If Rangers get back-to-back promotions all the way to the SPL in three years, they'll still have lost out on roughly £2m, which is a lot in SPL terms.

Wouldn't the gate receipts from two full houses cover that?

[peadar1987]

Okay, having crunched the numbers, it looks like Rangers are probably not going to suffer financially as much as I'd assumed. It'll still be interesting to see how they get on if and when they return to the top flight.

[Sean South]

Which all goes to prove that even the average LOI fan gives more of a %&^* about the Scottish 3rd division than they do about the 1st division of their own league.
It proves nothing. If the good people of Donegal and the surrounding region don't give a %&^* about Finn Harps why should anyone else care about them or the first division? Sort your own clubs problems out and the "league" will fix itself

[gormacha]

Sort your own clubs problems out and the "league" will fix itself

No it won't. You could have the best run club in the country, and it could still die in a sh1tty seven or eight team league.

[Dodge]

No it won't. You could have the best run club in the country, and it could still die in a sh1tty seven or eight team league.

I presume he meant if EVERY club sorts themselves out, the league will look after itself. if he's implying that some clubs look to lay blame off on FAI (and others), then he's 100% right

[ArdeeBhoy]

http://www.wsc.co.uk/forum-index/27-football/706952-anyone-for-a-celtic-league-then

[Macy]

I presume he meant if EVERY club sorts themselves out, the league will look after itself. if he's implying that some clubs look to lay blame off on FAI (and others), then he's 100% right
Isn't licencing supposed to ensure that clubs sort themselves out/ don't get into crap? Who's responsible for that continuing debacle?

A club takes responsibility for themselves, it is the FAI's job to take responsibility for the league in general, and to protect well run clubs from poorly run clubs.

[Dodge]

Isn't licencing supposed to ensure that clubs sort themselves out/ don't get into crap? Who's responsible for that continuing debacle?
No, licensing just gives minimum standards for entry into the league. It doesn't make clubs have to budget long term, make them efficient marketeers or give them any sort of impetus to get to a stage when licensing is a foregone conclusion


A club takes responsibility for themselves, it is the FAI's job to take responsibility for the league in general, and to protect well run clubs from poorly run clubs.
Right. So if there was no poorly run clubs, that'd be easier

[peadar1987]

No, licensing just gives minimum standards for entry into the league. It doesn't make clubs have to budget long term, make them efficient marketeers or give them any sort of impetus to get to a stage when licensing is a foregone conclusion


However, there's nothing that says that submitting a long term budget and sticking to it, or investing a certain amount in marketing couldn't be a licensing condition.

[A N Mouse]

However, there's nothing that says that submitting a long term budget and sticking to it, or investing a certain amount in marketing couldn't be a licensing condition.

Nothing except commonsense - given the current financial climate and hand to mouth existance of some/most clubs. (Of course commonsense would also dictate that this should be being done by forward thinking clubs irregardless - sadly there's nothing more uncommon (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Common_sense))

Its easy to knock licensing, and the annual fudge fest, but despite its shortcomings its dragged us to a situation where most clubs are being pragmatic.

I applaud Monaghan for what they did, in looking after themselves, but feel that without licensing it would actually have been harder for them give a one finger salute to frank and irene.

[Macy]

Its easy to knock licensing, and the annual fudge fest, but despite its shortcomings its dragged us to a situation where most clubs are being pragmatic.

I applaud Monaghan for what they did, in looking after themselves, but feel that without licensing it would actually have been harder for them give a one finger salute to frank and irene.
Licencing approved Monaghans budget. So yes, it is very easy to knock licencing when it approves budgets that result in a club pulling mid season because they don't meet (the apparently ridiculous) assumptions in the budget. Licencing made no difference whatsoever to what Monaghan chose to do.

[culloty82]

http://www.wsc.co.uk/forum-index/27-football/706952-anyone-for-a-celtic-league-then

Well, after the original article was mentioned, thought I'd get the Scottish and Welsh views on the idea.

[A N Mouse]

Licencing approved Monaghans budget. So yes, it is very easy to knock licencing when it approves budgets that result in a club pulling mid season because they don't meet (the apparently ridiculous) assumptions in the budget. Licencing made no difference whatsoever to what Monaghan chose to do.

But you have to distinguish between a flawed system, and a system with flaws.

Licensing could be better implemented, but collectively we're slightly better off for it - even if the reality is we're all doomed!

[Macy]

But you have to distinguish between a flawed system, and a system with flaws.

Licensing could be better implemented, but collectively we're slightly better off for it - even if the reality is we're all doomed!
I think the evidence stacks towards it being a flawed system. Mons getting a licence, and not being able to see out the season because of a budget licencing passed, is just the latest evidence.

[A N Mouse]

I think the evidence stacks towards it being a flawed system. Mons getting a licence, and not being able to see out the season because of a budget licencing passed, is just the latest evidence.

You seem to be claiming licensing is without merit.

Would you advocate scrapping licensing, as opposed to improving it? (baby/bathwater?)

A flawed system was ill-conceived, and unnecessary, in the first place.

On the other hand every system has flaws, and these should be eliminated/minimised.