Lisbon Treaty

[deecay]

Ive read most of this thread and can I ask any 'yes' people for the main one or two points ye are making

[Block G Raptor]

Perhaps this is a joke whooshing over my head.

Check my nomination of Osarusans post in this months POTM thread. then you'll get the joke

[mypost]

Ive read most of this thread and can I ask any 'yes' people for the main one or two points ye are making

Watched the drivel from Mickey Martin on Primetime last night. To sum up, the usual waffle about how great we've become as a result of membership, and no answers on the real issues as a result of the referendum, which appear to be the strategy of the campaign. :rolleyes: If that's how elected representatives do it, what do the rest of the side campaign on?

[jebus]

Mickey Martin posts here??

[pete]

Sorry for dragging this off-topic (I'm not a farmer by the way).

Poll pete ? :)

Will open a new thread with the farming posts above when I get a chance.

Should the EU subsidise the production of some food but not others? Does it subsidise beef but not vegetables?

[mypost]

Ideas!
http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/2968/cornerflaglk3.png

Clever Clogs :rolleyes:

That old chestnut again I see. The definition of "misquoting" in a nutshell.

For the newbies, it relates to a thread where I complained about the blatant, annoying, and sometimes counter-productive time-wasting by players at corner flags at the end of games. I wanted it to be treated the same as other forms of time-wasting, and still do. A yellow card was one of several suggestions put forward, some were practical, others debated.

That was 3 full years ago. Obviously some posters still haven't got over it. :rolleyes:

[pete]

Latest opinion poll has Yes vote up 3% so leading by 10% overall. Still 1/3 of voters undecided & I think can assume a lot of them will not vote.

I predict a very low turn out & Yes to win easily.

[mypost]

Anyone could predict the above, given that the only Lisbon coverage in the media this week, has been various TD's telling us how we should vote. All one way and despite the bullying, threats, and intimidation tactics, the gap has only increased by 3% in a small poll.

When the real rat race starts, I expect that gap to close, as less people are undecided, and the electorate realise exactly what they're voting on.

[mypost]

Taoiseach Brian Cowen today unveiled Fianna Fáil’s campaign for a Yes vote in the Lisbon Treaty referendum on June 12th.

He insisted ratification of the treaty was vital to allow the EU to meet ongoing challenges.

“To tackle modern forces such as globalisation, climate change and cross-border crime, countries cannot stand alone; and for us this means that we need an EU which has the structures, policies and procedures capable of having an impact,” Mr Cowen said.

“This is what lies at the heart of the Lisbon Reform Treaty and this is why it is important for Ireland and for Europe that it be ratified.”

The People Before Profit Alliance group is launching its campaign for a No vote on Wednesday.

As usual, no explanation as to why this is "vital."

The part in bold gives the game away really, as it confirms that we are neither able nor responsible to decide how to tackle these issues ourselves, further eroding our sovereignty to unaccountable politicians based 600 kilometres away. :(

[Macy]

Martin was on the Last Word last night and was asked repeatedly to give one benefit to Ireland of the treaty being passed. He couldn't and went down the "Europe has been good for us and this treaty will help it continue to be" route. To be out debated by Mary Lou is some going - and he was thought as a potential leader of FF only a few years ago!

[pete]

To be out debated by Mary Lou is some going - and he was thought as a potential leader of FF only a few years ago!

That sounds bad as she is hopeless. He will never be FF leader.

[mypost]

Martin was on the Last Word last night and was asked repeatedly to give one benefit to Ireland of the treaty being passed. He couldn't...

...because there isn't any benefit to us.

Even the date of the referendum is timed, so that the little Slovenians have to deal with the fall out if we vote the "wrong" way, rather than the all-powerful Sarkosy in July. :rolleyes:

[BohsPartisan]

Its being portrayed as if "you vote no, you're anti Europe" and that really shows the yes side have nothing to say.

[dahamsta]

Listening to Martin being singularly incapable of listing just one thing that would benefit Ireland was a revelation.

[mypost]

Minister for Finance Brian Lenihan warned today that a No vote on the Lisbon Treaty would be a "step into isolation for Ireland."

Mr Lenihan, who made the comments after a meeting of EU finance ministers in Brussels, said a No vote would damage the Irish economy.

Earlier in the day, the Minister addressed the EU American Chamber of Commerce where he said that membership of the European Union had brought “countless benefits” for Ireland.

“We are the only Member State to hold a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. We have an opportunity to demonstrate once again our strong commitment to Europe, which has been of such enormous benefit to Ireland, and our strong commitment to the principle of reform of institutions to improve their efficiency and effectiveness, said Mr Lenihan.

“A Yes vote to the Lisbon Treaty will ensure that Ireland remains at the centre of a more effective and efficient European Union. It is precisely this status that has brought us the high level of foreign direct investment that we have achieved thus far. I believe the single market will become even more important as we focus on export led economic growth to compensate for the readjustment of housing construction to more sustainable levels,” he said.

The same tactic again. :rolleyes:


Labour MEP, Proinsias De Rossa said that the treaty would safeguard and promote public services. “The Treaty makes considerable progress in the long-running campaign to achieve better protections for public services in the context of EU competition law,” said Mr De Rossa.

And this waffle benefits us in what way?? :confused:

[pete]

Brian "I never read the Treaty" Cowan doesn't help matters. Still though just because out elected leaders are idiots should not be a reason to vote No.

The debate on both sides has been fairly useless. Why the Yes side cannot come up with tangible benefits many on the No side just coming up standard anti-EU "think of the children" claims.

[dahamsta]

The ignorance of the No camp doesn't negate the ignorance of the Yes camp. At its most basic, there has to be an argument for, or there shouldn't be an argument at all.

Amending legislation to retain the status quo doesn't make sense; and let's be honest, has to be considered pretty shifty.

This treaty is all about power distribution for politicians, not countries or their citizens.

adam

[Sheridan]

I'm in favour of a federal Europe, a common defence force and any pan-European enterprise you care to mention, but I plan to vote against the treaty. What made up my mind was this quote from Patricia Callan of the Small Firms Association: "The Lisbon Treaty will safeguard our low corporate tax regime, our attractiveness as a destination for foreign direct investment and our flexible labour market."

I think we all understand what euphemisms like that coming from loathsome organisations like IBEC and the SFA actually mean. No wonder the employers' lobby is backing it so strongly.

[Kingdom]

The ignorance of the No camp doesn't negate the ignorance of the Yes camp. At its most basic, there has to be an argument for, or there shouldn't be an argument at all.

Amending legislation to retain the status quo doesn't make sense; and let's be honest, has to be considered pretty shifty.

This treaty is all about power distribution for politicians, not countries or their citizens.

adam


Thats the first post that I've looked at and thought "that makes sense, he's calling it as most of the ordinary folk have seen it so far, and he's not trying to pull the urine out of another poster!"

I really want someone who supports voting "yes" to submit a tangible reason for doing so. GavinZac is trying to but the condescending nature of his posts get annoying after a while.

[John83]

I plan to vote against the treaty. It actually has very little to do with the contents of the treaty.

Nice was voted against in a fair referendum here, and the vote was ignored. The EU constitution was voted against in Holland and France, and those votes have been ignored - the constitution repackaged as this treaty and kept away from referenda in every country but here. The politicians of Europe are not taking no for an answer. I think that attitude has to be beaten out of them.

[dahamsta]

I'm in favour of a federal Europe, a common defence force and any pan-European enterprise you care to mentionFor the record, me too, although I'd highlight the word defense. Chad isn't defense. And of course this treaty isn't about any of those things.

[pete]

What made up my mind was this quote from Patricia Callan of the Small Firms Association: "The Lisbon Treaty will safeguard our low corporate tax regime, our attractiveness as a destination for foreign direct investment and our flexible labour market.".

You liked the 1980s? Would be interesting to hear your alternatives to the above :rolleyes:

I will vote Yes as I could not find anything in the Treaty I disagreed with. I have mainly ignored the politicians efforts.

BTW I have no problem with the EU peace enforcing. The UN is a lame duck & we complain too much about the US. I would approve the EU going to Sudan without UN approval.

[dahamsta]

I will vote Yes as I could not find anything in the Treaty I disagreed with.That's a very odd way of putting it. Did you find anything you agreed with, anything that will tangibly benefit you or your country?

[sligoman]

Any chance of adding a poll to see which way people intend to vote? I know it's private but if people don't want to say then don't vote in it.

[mypost]

I think most people in this thread have already declared what way they will vote.

[Angus]

Not sure if this should be in th Lisbon Treaty thread but walking in this morning it became clear that both sides of the "argument" are treating the public with utter contempt.

Your choices are:

"Vote for Jobs" / "Vote for Ireland"

and

"People dies for your freedom" / "It will cost you"

These people are well funded and it is apparent that they certainly think that there are enough uninformed people out there to make a difference in this election.

Utterly feeble.

It comes back to one of my other ridiculous threads - we don't live in a democracy - if we did, there would be a much better way of avoiding this kind of intellectually moribund referendum

[pete]

That's a very odd way of putting it. Did you find anything you agreed with, anything that will tangibly benefit you or your country?

The EU needs changes for decision making & voting because there are 27 members now. I largely see the Treaty as an administrative device. The qualified majority voting changes seem realistic and fair. I am also happy that we keep control over tax policy. I can't remember what direct benefit the previous Treaties gave Ireland.

[mypost]

The EU needs changes for decision making & voting because there are 27 members now. I largely see the Treaty as an administrative device. The qualified majority voting changes seem realistic and fair.

The EU doesn't need change with regard to decision making. The current system used will protect Ireland's say. The majority voting system (and related voting rights) is weighed very heavily against Ireland/other small and new EU countries, and is very unfair.

[jebus]

The EU doesn't need change with regard to decision making. The current system used will protect Ireland's say. The majority voting system (and related voting rights) is weighed very heavily against Ireland/other small and new EU countries, and is very unfair.

How is it very unfair? Why should a country as small as ours have anything near the same voting rights as Germany, France or Britain for example?

[holidaysong]

The EU doesn't need change with regard to decision making. The current system used will protect Ireland's say. The majority voting system (and related voting rights) is weighed very heavily against Ireland/other small and new EU countries, and is very unfair.

Voting power is not weighted against Ireland or any other small countries. Ourselves, as well as the other small countries, have a greater say per person than the bigger countries.

[Block G Raptor]

Voting power is not weighted against Ireland or any other small countries. Ourselves, as well as the other small countries, have a greater say per person than the bigger countries.

Whats wrong with all countries having an equal say irrespective of population

[pete]

Whats wrong with all countries having an equal say irrespective of population

The current system is undemocratic. It would allow say Cyprus to veto legislation that the other 26 countries representing hundreds of millions of people want passed.

The new system still ensures that smaller countries get more votes per head of population & it also ensures need a minimum percentage of countries to get votes passed which ensures big countries can't force through on their own.

[mypost]

The current system is undemocratic. It would allow say Cyprus to veto legislation that the other 26 countries representing hundreds of millions of people want passed.

So if it allows Cyprus to veto legislation, how is it undemocratic? :confused:

The proposed system is undemocratic. It requires merely majority voting. "If you're in the minority well, fk you". :mad:

[Student Mullet]

I largely see the Treaty as an administrative device. ... I can't remember what direct benefit the previous Treaties gave Ireland.I think that's a part of the problem with this treaty. A lot of the previous ones contained a big ticket item. Nice allowed the 12 new countries to join, Maastricht brought in the euro. Both issues you could hold an opinion on. From what I can tell, this treaty does little other than redistribute the voting weights in Europe so it's difficult to get excited about it.

[pete]

So if it allows Cyprus to veto legislation, how is it undemocratic? :confused:

The proposed system is undemocratic. It requires merely majority voting. "If you're in the minority well, fk you". :mad:

You may not be aware but the definition of democracy is basically majority rule. :rolleyes:

Vetos will still remain but just removed for some areas.

[mypost]

You may not be aware but the definition of democracy is basically majority rule. :rolleyes:

The definition of democracy is your voice gets heard. Only happening for 3 million people regarding this constitution. :rolleyes:

[pete]

The definition of democracy is your voice gets heard. Only happening for 3 million people regarding this constitution. :rolleyes:

Other countries have their own rules. Who are we to tell them they must have a Referedum?

:confused:

[SligoBrewer]

The proposed system is undemocratic. It requires merely majority voting. "If you're in the minority well, fk you". :mad:

I asked google a question today

Define: Democracy

Here's what came up.

majority rule: the doctrine that the numerical majority of an organized group can make decisions binding on the whole group

:rolleyes:

[mypost]

Other countries have their own rules. Who are we to tell them they must have a Referedum?

Under the original constitution, approximately half of the EU states were scheduled to hold referendums. Most never got the opportunity.

[SligoBrewer]

Under the original constitution, approximately half of the EU states were scheduled to hold referendums. Most never got the opportunity.

Because how many countries voted no?

[gilberto_eire]

I was going to vote no up until about a week ago, informed myself a bit using this thread and also bits and pieces here and there.

Surprised to see the vote so close, i would have taught the ''Yes'' camp would have been much higher considering all the main political parties are pushing for this.

IMO anyway if anyone informed themselves to even the jist of the treaty they would see it's good for Ireland and Europe as a whole, so with that i'd conclude that anyone who's too lazy to inform themselves are also the crowd who are too lazy to register or even vote on the day, so i'd say at the ballot itself there will be much more pushing for a ''Yes''.

[John83]

IMO anyway if anyone informed themselves to even the jist of the treaty they would see it's good for Ireland and Europe as a whole, so with that i'd conclude that anyone who's too lazy to inform themselves are also the crowd who are too lazy to register or even vote on the day, so i'd say at the ballot itself there will be much more pushing for a ''Yes''.
People who haven't read the document are lazy? The actual document is both long and difficult - the clause "46) Articles 27 A to 27 E, on enhanced cooperation, shall be replaced by Article 10 in accordance with point 22 above." will give you a taste if you haven't tried it yourself. There's little to be gained for the average punter to actually read it. Instead, you've read a summary. Whose summary? Was their a bias to it?

Among the Yes camp will be those who unconditionally do whatever their political party tells them (a condition for which I enthusiastically endorse euthanasia), which strikes me as a fairly intellectually lazy group too. Truth is, the vast majority of people voting in this referendum will not have read the treaty. I'll warrant that over half of them won't have even read a summary.

[mypost]

Because how many countries voted no?

How many other countries would have voted no? The Brits for starters....


if anyone informed themselves to even the jist of the treaty they would see it's good for Ireland and Europe as a whole

You fail to say why it's good for Ireland.


"46) Articles 27 A to 27 E, on enhanced cooperation, shall be replaced by Article 10 in accordance with point 22 above."

We have to pass this?? :confused:

[John83]

We have to pass this?? :confused:
We have to vote on it, yes. Most substantial pieces of legislation are pretty convoluted, amendments doubly so.

[Student Mullet]

The actual document is both long and difficult - the clause "46) Articles 27 A to 27 E, on enhanced cooperation, shall be replaced by Article 10 in accordance with point 22 above." will give you a taste if you haven't tried it yourself.If you read the consolidated text you'll find it much easier. Reading the edits to a document you haven't read is always going to be difficult.

[gilberto_eire]

People who haven't read the document are lazy? The actual document is both long and difficult - the clause "46) Articles 27 A to 27 E, on enhanced cooperation, shall be replaced by Article 10 in accordance with point 22 above." will give you a taste if you haven't tried it yourself. There's little to be gained for the average punter to actually read it. Instead, you've read a summary. Whose summary? Was their a bias to it?

Among the Yes camp will be those who unconditionally do whatever their political party tells them (a condition for which I enthusiastically endorse euthanasia), which strikes me as a fairly intellectually lazy group too. Truth is, the vast majority of people voting in this referendum will not have read the treaty. I'll warrant that over half of them won't have even read a summary.

I hardly meant i read the whole document itself:rolleyes:

I was referring to http://www.lisbontreaty2008.ie/index.html

[John83]

If you read the consolidated text you'll find it much easier. Reading the edits to a document you haven't read is always going to be difficult.
I actually have read it (them technically), though it's been a while. At any rate, the consolidated text has only been made available this month. I've been pretty ****ed off at that actually. I haven't had time to read it yet.


I hardly meant i read the whole document itself:rolleyes:

I was referring to http://www.lisbontreaty2008.ie/index.html
Ah, yes, the Referendum commission. As much as I can't to read a summary by such an intellectual heavyweight as the Ombudsman ("I will be an ombudswoman"), I will actually read the damned thing myself first.

At any rate, well done on reading that much. Few enough will.

[Student Mullet]

I actually have read it (them technically), though it's been a while. At any rate, the consolidated text has only been made available this month. I've been pretty ****ed off at that actually. I haven't had time to read it yet. Cool,
I'll let you fill me in on what's in it so. I won't be at the game this Friday.

[John83]

Cool,
I'll let you fill me in on what's in it so. I won't be at the game this Friday.
I'm unlikely to read it by Friday, John. Maybe the Treaty on European Union, but definitely not the other one.

EDIT: Will/won't. So much room for confusion. :)

[Macy]

I was referring to http://www.lisbontreaty2008.ie/index.html
The Government appointed commission? Since Nice 1, the remite of the supposed independent information released to the public is severly restricted.