Lisbon Treaty

[dahamsta]

Didn't realise it was paid for by the individual states. The obvious answer is for the EU to fund it. I would have thought it should have been that way from the outset.

[Bald Student]

I don't think it's something the EU could pay for. A small country pretty much goes ungoverned for 6 months during the presidency. There's no practical way that the EU could pay a country to have a second civil service for the term.

[mypost]

I've always thought that 6 months was a very short term for a presidency. There's no way a country-based presidency should be as long as a person-based one, but sure nothing gets resolved in the political arena in 6 months.

Ireland's last Presidency was one of the most successful of recent times. One of the least was Italy's 6 months before. If they had it for 2 and a half years, with the damage Berlusconi caused and was capable of causing, it would have taken years for EU diplomatic relations to recover. That's the safety net of what the 6 month system allows.

We've had 6 EU Presidency's. Despite the costs and our small nation status, we've handled them well. It has allowed us to make key EU appointments, raise our influence, and host important summits. We shouldn't have to give that up, because the big states want to centralise the whole operation.

[Poor Student]

Presidency incurs a huge extra cost for the country holding it. Both in terms of actual money spent and man hours. Some of the smaller countries simply couldn't afford to hold it for more than 6 months

Anecdotally the feeling I got from Slovenians it felt too much of a burden during their presidency and detracted from effective national governance.

[bennocelt]

usual good stuff from Kerrgian in the Indo today saying that maybe the government should ask the Eu for money in return for getting a yes vote - not a bad idea:)

[pete]

usual good stuff from Kerrgian in the Indo today saying that maybe the government should ask the Eu for money in return for getting a yes vote - not a bad idea:)

Haven't they already given us something like 30-50 billion over the years?

[bennocelt]

Haven't they already given us something like 30-50 billion over the years?

true, but then we also could talk about them nicking our fish:p

[Dodge]

We've had 6 EU Presidency's. Despite the costs and our small nation status, we've handled them well. It has allowed us to make key EU appointments

What key appointments have been made during Ireland's presidency?

[Macy]

Haven't they already given us something like 30-50 billion over the years?
Is that net (no pun intended) of the extensive fishing rights we gave up? Farmers and roads paid for by our fishing industry...

[pete]

Is that net (no pun intended) of the extensive fishing rights we gave up? Farmers and roads paid for by our fishing industry...

I know the value of fish industry is commonly used by some to suggest the EU haven't given us much money but cou;ld we really sustain an economy with fish? Are there other similar countries making billions from fish?

[Macy]

I know the value of fish industry is commonly used by some to suggest the EU haven't given us much money but cou;ld we really sustain an economy with fish? Are there other similar countries making billions from fish?
Iceland? :D It's worth enough that some scandinavian's didn't join the EU... I'm not saying it's a total break even, but it was a significant contribution made by Ireland. Now if only the Irish Navy were as hard on foreign fleets as they are on our own, maybe it wouldn't have had such an impact.

[pete]

Iceland? :D It's worth enough that some scandinavian's didn't join the EU....

Times are good there now? ;)

Norway have a lot of fish but I am sure the oil is some important.

[mypost]

usual good stuff from Kerrgian in the Indo today saying that maybe the government should ask the Eu for money in return for getting a yes vote - not a bad idea:)

They can throw 3 billion, 30 billion, or 300 billion of Monopoly Money, in order to buy a Yes vote off us, but my vote is not for sale. My voice is more important to me than the size of my wallet. The government is responsible for our economic crisis, it is responsible to get us out of it. Ratifying Lisbon won't.


Is that net (no pun intended) of the extensive fishing rights we gave up?

Was down in Arklow Harbour last Autumn, where the fishermen made it very clear why they would reject the treaty, displaying their anger on blackboards at the EU's fisheries policy.

[Dodge]

What key appointments have been made during Ireland's presidency?

Any answer yet mypost?

[John83]

Pete, I don't know if it's even vaguely fair to compare, but this link (http://www.fao.org/fi/oldsite/FCP/en/JPN/profile.htm) gives Japan's 2003 fishing industry as outputting US$14 billion gross. That's a lotta tuna.

[mypost]

Any answer yet mypost?

Barroso was appointed as European Commission President under our last term in charge. 10 new countries were welcomed into the EU in the Phoenix Park.
At the end of the Presidency, Ireland's EU Commissioner was given one of the most important EU positions, with responsibility for the Internal Market.

In February, the WCQ fixture list was arranged in Dublin, specifically because of holding the Presidency at the time, which contributed to a more favourable fixture list for us.

[mypost]

Libertas and SIPO:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0403/1224243934744.html

[mypost]

Spotlight on Caroline Simons and Libertas

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0421/1224245071285.html

Caroline is a solicitor, and can quote random lines from the Treaty all day, but unlike Declan, isn't the best debater in the world. She'll face a difficult campaign to get elected, in the toughest constituency to get across anti-Treaty views.

[pete]

Reform Libertas Executive Director defects to Yes side (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0428/1224245518261.html)



IRELAND DOES not have the luxury of a second No vote in the Lisbon Treaty referendum and voters should vote Yes, one of the architects of last year’s Libertas campaign has said.

Naoise Nunn, who resigned as executive director of Libertas last September said: “The circumstances have changed: internationally, economically, financially and domestically.

“We don’t have the luxury of doing anything else. I am glad that we had a referendum. We were the only member state to do so, to have a proper debate, or something like a proper debate,” Mr Nunn told The Irish Times .

[superfrank]

That should read "former" or "ex-" Libertas director. Come on pete, I hate Libertas as much as the next guy but you are misleading with that one.

[mypost]

The circumstances have changed: internationally, economically, financially and domestically.

Apart from this case, I find that it's usually women are a lot more open to changing minds, and demanding collective "political unity" to deal with current situation, conveniently forgetting that we live in a democracy, there is a democratic process to go through, and final decisions to be made.

The circumstances haven't changed much from June. We were in recession then, now, and after the next ref. It is temporary. If ratified, Lisbon is permanent.

No means No.

[pete]

That should read "former" or "ex-" Libertas director. Come on pete, I hate Libertas as much as the next guy but you are misleading with that one.

Edited.

[OneRedArmy]

Apart from this case, I find that it's usually women are a lot more open to changing minds, and demanding collective "political unity" to deal with current situation, conveniently forgetting that we live in a democracy, there is a democratic process to go through, and final decisions to be made.

The circumstances haven't changed much from June. We were in recession then, now, and after the next ref. It is temporary. If ratified, Lisbon is permanent.

No means No.Since you are so keen on the democratic process being followed, can you point me to where in the Constitution it says decisions made are final?

You can use previous referenda on divorce and Europe as examples.

[mypost]

Reform Libertas Executive Director defects to Yes side

Ganley's response (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0429/1224245598796.html)

[Réiteoir]

Have we had any figures released by Libertas as to the sources of their funding - as Ganley promised?

Surely if they have nothing to hide as they said - then we'd have seen something...

[mypost]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0429/1224245598813.html

[Lionel Ritchie]

...So it took seven months from the time of asking Declan Ganley to provide details of loan agreements and repayment schedules for him to provide confirmation that Libertas is indeed a one-man show. I'd say that Irish politics needs an operator like this about as much as it needs a bad dose of the clap -but I supppose one in -all in. :rolleyes:

Anyone know how much one of them More-O'Farrell advertisement hoardings costs to rent for a given period of time? I counted SIX of them featuring Ganleys Libertas between Limerick and Ennis on the N18 last weekend.

[holidaysong]

That Simons one that is running in Dublin has her name and face everywhere too. They seem to have an ad on every single bus in the city.

[BohsPartisan]

...So it took seven months from the time of asking Declan Ganley to provide details of loan agreements and repayment schedules for him to provide confirmation that Libertas is indeed a one-man show.

True but after several tribunals we're still trying to get to the bottom of where FF's money came from.

Yeah Libertas are shady, but its a bit pot/kettle for FF to point the finger isn't it?

[Lionel Ritchie]

True but after several tribunals we're still trying to get to the bottom of where FF's money came from.

Yeah Libertas are shady, but its a bit pot/kettle for FF to point the finger isn't it? Absolutely true, but just because we've come to expect no better from them is no reason to just accept it as the modus operandi for anyone in the field. Which is why I said...


... I'd say that Irish politics needs an operator like this about as much as it needs a bad dose of the clap -but I supppose one in -all in. :rolleyes:
.

[pete]

Irish Times (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0505/1224245942995.html)



THE SECOND referendum on the Lisbon Treaty will be held in the autumn, Minister for European Affairs Dick Roche said yesterday.

[mypost]

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fine-gael-candidate-warns-on-lisbon-rejection-1738398.html


Mr Mitchell accepted a rejection of Lisbon would not affect Ireland's ability to draw down structural funds.

The underlined bit is what matters to most people.

[OneRedArmy]

We are ineligible for the vast majority of structural funds and have been for a while:confused:

[Bald Student]

We are ineligible for the vast majority of structural funds and have been for a while:confused:
Funnily, Libertas have been complaining about the cost of regional funds, which some parts of Ireland are still eligible for. They say they could cut 10 billion from the budget and list some sports facilities in foreign countries they'd cut funding to.

[OneRedArmy]

Funnily, Libertas have been complaining about the cost of regional funds, which some parts of Ireland are still eligible for. They say they could cut 10 billion from the budget and list some sports facilities in foreign countries they'd cut funding to.BMW regions are the only eligible IIRC and even then are way down the pecking order.

Raises an interesting question now that Libertas are pan-European. Do they campaign in every country that they will reduce foreign funding? Seems like exactly their kind of populist nonsense.

[mypost]

http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=46840


"The treaty will actually increase the democratic legitimacy of EU policy making by increasing the powers of the European Parliament as well as giving more powers to national parliaments to control what happens at the EU level,"

"There is even the possibility of citizens to become directly involved though the Citizens Initiative, whereby one million citizens can make a proposal for legislation to the European Commission."

"the Lisbon Treaty would make the EU more capable to act for example in the field of foreign affairs as it will concentrate authority in the hands of a high representative for foreign policy, If the treaty is ratified, the EU will function more efficiently, and we will be able to leave behind the debate on treaty reform and instead focus on actual policies."

There is no explanation there, on how Lisbon will assist/revive/help out member state's economic crisis, or save/create jobs. Yet, that is how it's been sold here. :confused:

There is a lot of talk about power, positions, proposals, and policies however. Because that's what it is all about. Power, not finance.

[OneRedArmy]

Libertas have now come out and advocated the end of free movement and right to work within the EU.

"Pro-European"? You're having a laugh.

Good to see Ganley is polling abysmally. The sooner he practices what he preaches and returns to Watford to continue being a US Department of Defense lackey the better.

[mypost]

Good to see Ganley is polling abysmally. The sooner he practices what he preaches and returns to Watford to continue being a US Department of Defense lackey the better.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/ganley-hits-out-at-dirty-tricks-1746392.html

[pete]

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/ganley-hits-out-at-dirty-tricks-1746392.html


The Libertas leader has made an official complaint to the gardai that up to 2,000 of his posters have been illegally stolen in what his supporters say is a "systematic and organised" campaign.

I have never before heard a losing politician allege they are all out to get him.



Some of the canvassers are former Fianna Fail members and one woman says she previously canvassed for former MEP and Eurovision winner Dana Rosemary Scallon who tapped into the pro-life and religious vote that is strong in the north west constituency.

The Ganley campaign is hoping to follow suit -- which is why he was in touch with those at the prayer meeting in Claddagh Church during this canvass.

Proof again Ganley will adopt any policy for votes.

I am sure hw will tell farmers he will get them EU money but at the same time want EU budget cut.

The Lisbon Treaty is strange as lot of people are anti-FF but pro Lisbon yet seems can't be anti Lisbon & anti Libertas?

[mypost]

The Lisbon Treaty is strange as lot of people are anti-FF but pro Lisbon?

Some people see Lisbon as the saviour of our economy, because that's the political spin operation. Which is like saying that pigs do fly. This is a government so broke, that it will continue to run up deficits until at least the next scheduled election!!!

Quality article from Asia though:

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/opinon/2009/05/137_45404.html

[pete]

Full text of the assurances which the Government wants the EU to agree to.

We should be embarrassed as a nation. I am surprised Brian Cowan has not entered an assurance that the Treaty does not force everyone to wear hats or dye their hair blue. :rolleyes:

This also highlights how poorly the government negotitaed the Treay & ran its initial campaign.



Section A

Right to Life, Family and Education

Nothing in the Treaty of Lisbon attributing legal status to the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union, or in the provisions of that Treaty in the area of Freedom, Security and Justice affects in any way the scope and applicability of the protection of the right to life in Article 40.3.1. 40.3.2 and 40.3.3, the protection of the family in Article 41 and the protection of the rights in respect of education in Articles 42 and 44.2.4 and 44.2.5 provided by the Constitution of Ireland.

Section B

Taxation

Nothing in the Treaty of Lisbon makes any change of any kind for any Member State, to the extent or operation of the competence of the European Union in relation to taxation.

Section C

Security and Defence

The Union’s action on the international scene is guided by the principles of democracy, the rule of law, the universality and indivisibility of human rights and fundamental freedoms, respect for human dignity, the principles of equality and solidarity, and respect for the principles of the United Nations Charter and international law.

The Union’s common security and defence policy is an integral part of the common foreign and security policy and provides the Union with an operational capacity to undertake missions outside the Union for peace-keeping, conflict prevention and strengthening international security in accordance with the principles of the United Nations Charter. It does not prejudice the specific character of the security and defence policy of Ireland.

The Lisbon Treaty does not affect or prejudice Ireland’s traditional policy of military neutrality.

It will be for Ireland, acting in a spirit of solidarity and without prejudice to its traditional policy of military neutrality, to determine the nature of aid or assistance to be provided to a Member State which is the object of a terrorist attack or the victim of armed aggression on its territory. Any decision to move to a common defence will require a unanimous decision of the European Council. It would be a matter for the Member States, including Ireland, to decide, in accordance with the provisions of the Treaty of Lisbon and with their respective constitutional requirements, whether or not to adopt a common defence.

Nothing in this Section affects or prejudices the position or policy of any other Member State on security and defence.

It is also a matter for each Member State to decide, in accordance with the provisions of the Lisbon Treaty and any domestic legal requirements, whether to participate in permanent structured co-operation or the European Defence Agency.

The Treaty of Lisbon does not provide for the creation of a European army or for conscription to any military formation,

It does not affect the right of Ireland or any other Member State to determine the nature and volume of its defence and security expenditure and the nature of its defence capabilities.

It will be a matter for Ireland or any other Member State to decide, in accordance with any domestic legal requirement, whether or not to participate in any military operation.

Section D

Final Provisions

Annex 2

Solemn Declaration on Workers’ Rights and Social Policy

The European Council confirms the high importance which the Union attaches to:

* Social progress and the protection of workers’ rights;
* Public services, as an indispensable instrument of social and regional cohesion;
* The responsibility of Member States for the delivery of education and health services;
* The essential role and wide discretion of national, regional and local authorities in providing, commissioning and organising services of general economic interest.

In doing so, it underlines the importance of respecting the overall framework and provisions of the EU Treaties.

It recalls that the Treaties as modified by the Treaty of Lisbon:

* Aim at establishing an internal market and working for the sustainable development of Europe based on balanced economic growth and price stability, a highly competitive social market economy, aiming at full employment and social progress, and a high level of protection and improvement of the quality of the environment;
* Will give expression to the Union’s values and, through Article 6 of the Treaty on European Union, recognise the rights, freedoms and principles set out in the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union;
* Aim to combat social exclusion and discrimination, and to promote social justice and protection, equality between women and men, solidarity between generations and protection of the rights of the child;
* Oblige the Union, when defining and implementing its policies and activities, to take into account requirements linked to the promotion of a high level of employment, the guarantee of adequate social protection, the fight against social exclusion, and a high level of education, training and protection of human health;
* Include, as a shared value of the Union, the essential role and the wide discretion of national, regional and local authorities in providing, commissioning and organising services of general economic interest as closely as possible to the needs of the users;
* Do not affect in any way the competence of Member States to provide, commission and organise non-economic service of general interest;
* Provide that the Council, when acting in the area of common commercial policy, must act unanimously when negotiating and concluding international agreements in the field of trade in social, education and health services, where those agreements risk seriously disturbing the national organisation of such services and prejudicing the responsibility of Member States to deliver them; and
* Provide that the Union recognises and promotes the role of the social partners at the level of the European Union, and facilitates dialogue between them, taking account of the diversity of national systems and respecting the autonomy of social partners.

It reiterates that the participation of contingents of the Irish Defence Forces in overseas operations, including those carried out under the European common security and defence policy requires (a) the authorisation of the operation by the Security Council of the General Assembly of the United Nations, (b) the agreement of the Irish Government, and (c) the approval of Dáil Éireann, in accordance with Irish law.

Ireland notes that nothing obliges it to participate in permanent structured co-operation as provided for in the Treaty on European Union. Any decision enabling Ireland to participate will require the approval of Dáil Éireann in accordance with Irish law.

Ireland notes also that nothing obliges it to participate in the European Defence Agency, or in specific projects or programmes initiated under its auspices. Any decision to participate in such projects or programmes will be subject to national decision-making and the approval of Dáil Éireann in accordance with Irish law. Ireland declares that it will participate only in those projects and programmes that contribute to enhancing the capabilities required for participation in UN-mandated missions for peace-keeping, conflict prevention and strengthening international security, in accordance with the principles of the United Nations Charter.

The situation set out in this Declaration would be unaffected by the entry into force of the Treaty of Lisbon. In the event of Ireland’s ratification of the Treaty of Lisbon, this Declaration will be associated with Ireland’s instrument of ratification.

[mypost]

Full text of the assurances which the Government wants the EU to agree to.

We should be embarrassed as a nation.

Yes we should be embarrassed. Embarrassed that Cowen didn't carry out the instructions the electorate gave him 12 months ago, to avoid all this nonsense.

The "assurances" are a sham and an irrelevance, afaic. This is the same treaty with the same loopholes, the same loss of power and influence for the state in Brussels, and are nothing more than a conjob designed to rig the vote. Not a single word, comma, or full stop has been changed. It's up to our electorate to reject it, followed by the Brits next year.

[OneRedArmy]

Yes we should be embarrassed. Embarrassed that Cowen didn't carry out the instructions the electorate gave him 12 months ago, to avoid all this nonsense.

The "assurances" are a sham and an irrelevance, afaic. This is the same treaty with the same loopholes, the same loss of power and influence for the state in Brussels, and are nothing more than a conjob designed to rig the vote. Not a single word, comma, or full stop has been changed. It's up to our electorate to reject it, followed by the Brits next year.What instructions did the electorate give Cowan, other than they didn't understand the Treaty?

I agree with Pete. The electorate are fools, but then the last few elections should have told us that anyway.

[pete]

I suppose everyone should know at this stage the first referendum is just the mock one. Its a bit like the Leaving Cert or driving test.

The common defence opt out is highly hypocritical. I think the addendum states common defence action should be decided unanimously but we still want an opt out. Of course if we were attacked we would be begging for assistance immeadiately. Apparently as a nation we like to be militarily neutral (does that actually exist?) & we don't like the american troops landing in Shannon but really don't care too much if means have to do something about.

[dahamsta]

I suppose everyone should know at this stage the first referendum is just the mock one. Its a bit like the Leaving Cert or driving test.New sig for Adam!

[John83]

Its a bit like the Leaving Cert or driving test.
And like the Leaving Cert and the driving test, I got what I wanted the first time around.

[irishultra]

i prob wont vote, i have had some second doubts on lisbon, ill be able to vote for the next election but arggh not sure if i would vote yes or no.

[mypost]

Of course if we were attacked we would be begging for assistance immeadiately.

There was a war going on in a neighbouring state for 25 years of our EU membership. How much assistance did the EU give them? Nothing. There was some help from America, but us and the other side were mainly left by Brussels to sort it out on our own.

As the chance of us being attacked is relatively low these days, this "assistance" applies in reality (as with everything else in the treaty) to the big states getting attacked. We don't have the resources, and now the money, to help them.

[Dodge]

There was a war going on in a neighbouring state for 25 years of our EU membership. How much assistance did the EU give them? Nothing. There was some help from America, but us and the other side were mainly left by Brussels to sort it out on our own

For the vast majority of its life the EU was a purely economical union

[Réiteoir]

For the vast majority of its life the EU was a purely economical union

As shown by when the EU was originally setup - it was known as the European Coal and Steel Community - and then the European Economic Community