Lisbon Treaty

[BohsPartisan]

I see loads of Libertas posters have appeared equating a Yes vote with the death of Irish and European democracy.



The scared little girls are hilarious. I can't wait for their zombie apocalypse poster.

[apo11o]

Ganley called RTE, radio Lisbon, nice one.

[Mr A]

He also called Proinsias De Rossa a 'f***ing traitor'. Classy guy.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/lisbon-treaty/ganley-de-rossa-turn-air-blue-after-radio-row-1898172.html

[Sheridan]

De Rossa is a f***ing traitor, but not for the reasons Ganley would adduce.

[Angus]

OK, in the mini world of foot.ie's current affairs thread, I will proffer a deal.

You give me a guarantee that there is no further plans for more european integration, and that, in essence, all power that is intended to be centralised has already been centralised and that there is no more planned - and this treaty will be passed by 100% to nil.

[dahamsta]

You should probably add: "...and it has to be a legislative guarantee, not written on the back of a fag packet like the current lot."

[dahamsta]

It's deja vu all over again.


Foreign Affairs Minister Micheal Martin said (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5gLGFa3CNf9wLBB_w8TJs7NvX-LEg) there was no back-up plan if voters throw out the controversial charter on Friday. "There are no contingency plans," he said. "The bottom line is if Lisbon doesn't go through I think it puts Europe into a crisis position because we do believe, all of us involved in the European Union, that the reforms which are quite modest actually in the Lisbon Treaty are necessary to enable Europe to play a more effective role on the world stage."

[mypost]

Europe won't be in crisis. Brussels administration will be in crisis. Despite the fact that it has worked perfectly well since enlargement came.

These people along with bankers, and businessmen around the EU have ruined millions of people's lives in the past 2 years. It's time they suffered now. They must understand what refusal and rejection means, and be taught that however successful you are, you can't get your own way all the time. No only means No, and nothing else.

[OneRedArmy]

These people along with bankers, and businessmen around the EU have ruined millions of people's lives in the past 2 years. It's time they suffered now. They must understand what refusal and rejection means, and be taught that however successful you are, you can't get your own way all the time. No only means No, and nothing else.Probably a valid point, but absolutely nothing to do with Lisbon. The biggest connection to banking is Odey Asset Management's funding of Libertas.

At this stage, having seen this mornings Ryanair ad, I think Michael O'Leary is probably the No camps best asset.

[osarusan]

Probably a valid point, but absolutely nothing to do with Lisbon.
Spot on. The idea that we should vote No to "punish" bankers or government is ridiculous.

Vote on the treaty based on whether you think it is a good thing or not. However you vote, at least vote on the treaty. Don't use it to make an example of any particular group, no matter how sickening they are.

[Macy]

I don't know anymore. What this country needs most is FF out. No to FF, No to NAMA, No to Lisbon? If they do one of those surveys again post a second "No", they can come out with the conclusion that it was all an anti Government vote as a reason to go again.

A yes to Lisbon will be seen as a victory for Cowen and they'll limp on.

[mypost]

Probably a valid point, but absolutely nothing to do with Lisbon. The biggest connection to banking is Odey Asset Management's funding of Libertas.

Don't get too excited, their "funding" was one bloke's donation to their UK European Election campaign. I'm sure you're aware how successful it was.

Which also has nothing to do with Lisbon.

[Mr A]

Sinn Fein- always good for a laugh. Attacking Labour for being on the same side as FF and FG while SF are on the same side as UKIP, the conservatives and the BNP. Surely somebody from Labour will take advantage of this open goal?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0929/breaking54.htm

[mypost]

Most opposition from political parties over the Treaty, stems from the Nationalist parties around Europe, and who want their states to be fully independent. Most of those backing it are centre parties who think we all need "ever closer union."

What we need is cooperation, not a "one size fits all" policy.

[bennocelt]

Sinn Fein- always good for a laugh. Attacking Labour for being on the same side as FF and FG while SF are on the same side as UKIP, the conservatives and the BNP. Surely somebody from Labour will take advantage of this open goal?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0929/breaking54.htm

well are they not 100% right in this? Gilmore has gone back on his word when he said he would respect the vote ofthe Irish people

[dahamsta]

Did he actually say that? I just got spammed by that maggot, despite telling them to stuff their membership where the sun don't shine and specifically telling them to stop spamming me at the same time. Can't stand Gilmore. I'll take Rabbitte or Quinn over that weasel any day.

(I asked for and got a refund. Shocked and stunned I was.)

adam

[BohsPartisan]

Did he actually say that?

Yep. Nearly sure Kenny backed him when he said it too.

Edit, some stuff here on p.ie
http://www.politics.ie/lisbon-treaty/99083-fine-gael-labour-liars-3.html#post2032111

[mypost]

Coir back in the news again:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0930/1224255526131.html

[superfrank]

Although Cóir are an unbearable pain in the backside, I actually agree with this particular idea.

[mypost]

Sean Quinn's employees have the gun put to their head:

http://www.herald.ie/national-news/sean-quinns-letter-to-staff-urging-all-to-vote-yes-to-lisbon-1900194.html

Meanwhile, looks like the No side have taken the early lead in the first votes cast:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5hL-1OQVM7I1RPiGEV3viLndgvvzQ

Donegal recorded a high No vote last time. As those with 60% verdicts then are probably going to record the same Yes/No verdict, it's the marginal constituencies last time where the battle will be won and lost.

[thischarmingman]

"Did our priests fight the feminists for this?" (http://www.netsoc.tcd.ie/~theorie/nogenerator/)

[BohsPartisan]

"Did our priests fight the feminists for this?" (http://www.netsoc.tcd.ie/~theorie/nogenerator/)

http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%253A%252F%252Ffiannafool.com%252Fkitt ens.jpg&h=f156bd1834d388cae3d0e050ff783406&ref=mf

[37Beour]

I have only read the last couple of pages on this thread because I would be here til after Friday reading it :p

But this is my few cents worth....

I have thought about the two sides, Yes and No. I voted No in Lisbon 1 and I am going to vote No again on Friday. My reasons being Irish people had spoken in the first vote and we should not be asked to vote again in order for the goverment to get what they want. This can seem a little bit childish or ridiculous given that Lisbon is changed somewhat compared to the original but its my firm belief it shows the crookidness in Irish politics and my stance will not change.

Secondly I am an Irish person first and foremost then a European....if Lisbon goes through I feel not only will we lose our individuality but I think it will have major drastic effects on the way we live and the way we conduct our in house politics. People may not neccessarily think this is a bad thing but give me a Brian Cowen every day of the week rather than someone in Brussels calling the shots. I feel the main aim of this Treaty is for certain members of EU parliament to get more power and this does not sit very well with me at all. Too much power is never ever a good thing. People can argue that this isn't what its about or as the ad on tele says the 'Irish Goverment will still control taxes, laws etc' but I firmly believe this is a stepping stone for something greater to come.

I am going to vote no even though it does not sit well with me that Sinn Fein of all the parties are on the No side. I think they are on the no side for the reason that Ireland has previously been occupied and they don't want the same to happen again. I am not saying we will be invaded thats laughable but what I am saying is they currently have a slight foothold in Irish politics and they don't want to give it up which will gradually occur if EU assumes a certain degree of control.

The point that cemented my no vote was the one that out of all the nations we are the only nation to vote on it. Not only is this extremely strange it is also wrong. The fact that goverments openly admitted they did not put it to referendum in their respective nations because they knew people would reject it says it all about this Treaty.

For the Yes-ers...we all know why the goverment want it in and Michael O' Leary for the Aer Lingus coup. However I don't think its right for people to vote to get rid of the current goverment because after all we did vote um back in! Bottom line though everyone has the right to exercise their vote the way they please for the reasons they want.

Thats all Im saying...laugh if ye want:D:p

[mypost]

Canvassing (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/1001/1224255613292.html)

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/curtain-falls-on-dirtiest-and-most-unpleasant-fight-in-living-memory-1901142.html

With a document as incomprehensible as this, it's little wonder that the campaign has descended the way it has.

[bennocelt]

For the Yes-ers...we all know why the goverment want it in and Michael O' Leary for the Aer Lingus coup. However I don't think its right for people to vote to get rid of the current goverment because after all we did vote um back in! Bottom line though everyone has the right to exercise their vote the way they please for the reasons they want.



what? everybody? No, 2/5 of the electorate are insane

[37Beour]

what? everybody? No, 2/5 of the electorate are insane


Obviously not everyone but majority rules and they voted them back in. Voting against the Lisbon Treaty to get them out isn't the right way about it as this Treaty will have long lasting effects for the Irish people

[eamo1]

A couple of Czech politicians are lodging an appeal to their own court to have a second vote of the treaty in their parliment.If they succeed it could potentially sink the treaty as it will delay it being passed in the Czech Rep until June when the British general election will take place where the conservatives are favourites to win and have said they wont ratify the treaty.So if Britain doesnt pass it then it wont be adopted as all countries need to pass it for it to be adopted.
So IF Ireland does vote yes the treaty could still sink.
Article was on front page on the Irish Times.


"If given the opportunity 95% of Europeans would vote NO to this treaty"-Charlie Mc.Creevy,Hotpress Magazine,December 08.

[Angus]

Obviously not everyone but majority rules and they voted them back in. Voting against the Lisbon Treaty to get them out isn't the right way about it as this Treaty will have long lasting effects for the Irish people

Sorry to be pedantic but:

Nobody voted in any election, ever, for Cowan to be Taoiseach

Nobody voted in any election, ever, for a FF / Green government

FF got 41% of first preference votes - even if you include the Greens, that number gets up to 46%, which I think you will find is less than a majority. Incidentally, including the PD's still leaves you less than 50%

SF out polled the Greens by 50%, yet the Greens are in government

I know what you are saying - that the government was elected democratically - and you are of course right - all I am saying is that more people voted against this government than for it

[dahamsta]

the British general election will take place where the conservatives are favourites to win and have said they wont ratify the treaty.So if Britain doesnt pass it then it wont be adopted as all countries need to pass it for it to be adopted.This cropped up somewhere else yesterday: didn't Parliament already ratify it?

[Mr A]

yeah. The Tories just promised a referendum if we voted No I think.

Although I'm not sure that makes sense.

[holidaysong]

I was just listening to Today FM and they played the Snow Patrol song 'Just Say Yes'.. An attempt to get around the media moratorium perhaps!? :eek:

[mypost]

FF got 41% of first preference votes - even if you include the Greens, that number gets up to 46%, which I think you will find is less than a majority. Incidentally, including the PD's still leaves you less than 50%

SF out polled the Greens by 50%, yet the Greens are in government

I know what you are saying - that the government was elected democratically - and you are of course right - all I am saying is that more people voted against this government than for it

With the multi-party PR system we have, no party has to get 50%, they just have to get the most votes. If they don't get 83 seats, they have to form a coalition with someone else in order to get those numbers. The more they get, the stronger the chances of staying in power for the full term. With another twist in the system, if the combined numbers of FG and Labour exceed those of FF, it's they that get the prize.

FG gained back the 20 seats that they lost in 2002 at the last election, but Labour lost one. FF got more than them, 78-73, and so got to form the government.

Back on-topic....


A couple of Czech politicians are lodging an appeal to their own court to have a second vote of the treaty in their parliment.If they succeed it could potentially sink the treaty as it will delay it being passed in the Czech Rep until June when the British general election will take place where the conservatives are favourites to win and have said they wont ratify the treaty.

It's 17 of them lodging the appeal. The UK can withdraw parliament's ratification of the treaty should the Conservatives win it, and it hasn't been ratified in every other country, and hold the referendum. Unfortunately, it's unlikely the Czechs can hold out long enough before the UK election is called next year, in order to trigger that referendum.

[Mr A]

So you're hoping the Conservatives win?

[bennocelt]

I was just listening to Today FM and they played the Snow Patrol song 'Just Say Yes'.. An attempt to get around the media moratorium perhaps!? :eek:

Need to call in for a request then - 2 Unlimited?:)

[mypost]

Right lads, so it's D-Day. Today, you are voting on whether to approve or reject the ratification of the EU Lisbon Treaty by the Irish Government of the 28th Amendment to the Irish Constitution. You've read the arguments, but if you still haven't made up your mind, well here is mypost's final arguments on the treaty.

Among other things, If you are convinced by the economic arguments made by Yes campaigners, and approve the increase of this EU state's spending on it's military capabilities, you are free to vote with the Government on the Lisbon Treaty.

If you hold concerns over the nature of the role of the President of the European Council, if you wish the Irish Foreign Minister to decide our foreign policy rather than the EU High Representative for Foreign Affairs, if you are sceptical of the decision by 26 EU heads of state to bypass their electorates in ratifying the Lisbon Treaty, if you are annoyed at having to vote again, and/or any other reasons, you are free to reject the EU Constitutional Lisbon Treaty.

When you go to the polls today, you have the future of 500 million citizens on your ballot paper. You can decide to obey the government or obey the will of the people in 3 earlier state referendums. Make your choice, and make it carefully. You are lucky to have the opportunity.

The official result of the referendum will be declared around 5pm tomorrow.

[bennocelt]

For me its a No vote all the way.

A few reasons................
Democracy.............We already voted No and it wasnt accepted. Not only that but Cowen and co went to Brussels to APOLOGISE to the EU for what the Irish electorate did.
We are asked to vote again on the same treaty.
If the politicans asked us to vote YEs the first time and nowclaim there has been some improvements this time, does that mean that they were all wrong to push a inferior treaty the first time round!!!!!?????

second reason............it would def mean the end of FF and Cowen

third reason............people in Europe are watching us, esp in the UK........fingers crossed we wont embaress ourselves:(

[Mr A]

I have already voted yes.

There have been many good reasons to vote yes, I haven't seen the No side make a single one of any great importance that stood up to scrutiny. To me the No campaign has been based around political opportunism, untruths and downright paranoia.

[EAFC_rdfl]

sorry to go OT, but i registered to vote earlier in the year in galway (moving it from donegal) and got a letter confirming it was done. but no voting card arrived in this week. who or where should I aim my annoyance? Galway co co? I know it will do no good, but it will make me feel better :D

[Angus]

I have already voted yes.

There have been many good reasons to vote yes, I haven't seen the No side make a single one of any great importance that stood up to scrutiny. To me the No campaign has been based around political opportunism, untruths and downright paranoia.

Agree entirely with your assessment of the No campaign - but respectfully suggest that in this case, that it is unwise to base a voting intention on the relative quality of the 2 campaigns - both of which have been awful

[Mr A]

I didn't. I based it on what was actually in the treaty- essentially a clean-up of the EU way of working.

As for the yes side- they at least have the defence that they were fighting fire with fire this time having been blown away by the No side's misdirection previously.

Incidentally- I still think there is a fair chance that the No side will win.

[eamo1]

FAO,you can still vote if you didnt get a voting card.If your name is on the register just bring your Passport or I.D and they will let you vote.

[KevB76]

sorry to go OT, but i registered to vote earlier in the year in galway (moving it from donegal) and got a letter confirming it was done. but no voting card arrived in this week. who or where should I aim my annoyance? Galway co co? I know it will do no good, but it will make me feel better :D

You dont need a voting card, just bring ID, as long as you go to the correct polling station where you are listed you'll be grand. I dont know where you might check out what your polling station is though, sorry.

[Mr A]

Possibly on a county council site? think I saw something about that...

Edit: http://www.checktheregister.ie/

Voting reported to be slow: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/1002/breaking1.htm

Good news for the No side as their support is a lot more motivated.

[eamo1]

According to local radio here in Galway turnout so far is above the national average of 11%.I'll vote this evening on my way to Terryland Pk:).

[Fr Damo]

Voting reported to be slow: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/.../breaking1.htm (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/1002/breaking1.htm)

Good news for the No side as their support is a lot more motivated.


And Possibly out of work and therefore more apathetic?? Yes side will probably be in during the afternoon.

[dahamsta]

Good news for the No side as their support is a lot more motivated.I thought the opposite; that the No side will need big numbers to suceed.

[EAFC_rdfl]

cheers lads, should have asked yesterday, wont be back home this evening so would have been going voting first thing on the way to work
couldnt get a suitable value for the 'townland/street' box on checktheregister, and its compulsory to fill it in, even though my surname should nearly be enough to search on!

[John83]

I thought the opposite; that the No side will need big numbers to suceed.
No has been behind in the polls. A small turnout usually suits a side like that, I think. Of course, the specifics are everything.

[mypost]

Voting reported to be slow:

Good news for the No side as their support is a lot more motivated.

Voting is always slow during the workday. It does pick up in the evening. I haven't voted yet, but unless it was unavoidable, I would never vote in the morning.

The morning votes provide the photo ops for the politicians and campaigners, although why it happens beats me. Everyone is aware how they'll vote.

[eamo1]

Theres an awfull finality to today,like a death of a close relative etc.Ye just dont realise what ye've done and given up.Ye do now realise THATS IT,NO more referendums on ANYTHING,our own constitution now meaningless.The only people truly happy today are powerfull lobby groups and faceless beurecrats in the Euro parliment.My grandfather and great grandfather are turning in their graves today.:(:(.