Lisbon Treaty

[mypost]

Mypost recognises the outcome of the referendum.

Today is not a victory for the Irish people, it's a victory for fear and delusion from the Irish political establishment and the economic elite, who have made hundreds of thousands of people's lives misery in recent times, and will continue to do so. So offers of congratulations from them are hollow and meaningless.

I would like to thank the number of voters who stood up to the government and their cronies, and wanted to protect the hard won democracy and sacred constitution of our country, which is now redundant. Ireland therefore ceases to become a republic, and is now an EU Province forthwith, beholden entirely to the orders of Brussels and Frankfurt.

We lost today's battle, but history will show that we made the right call for Ireland and Europe.

[Mr A]

Sanity has prevailed. Onwards and upwards.

[dahamsta]

mypost, talking about yourself in the third person is a first indicator of insanity.

Mr A, in here that's a troll, and you know it is. I'm not sure if it was you or someone else I warned about this before, but I won't do it again either way.

adam

[Sheridan]

A black day for democracy, and a dangerous one too. A lot of No voters stayed at home because, after what happened last time, they realised their vote for worthless. When there's this much anger against the establishment as a whole out there, and you prevent people from effecting change through democratic and constitutional means, you open Pandora's box.

[dahamsta]

(That's an end to my support of Europe btw, I've gone from a liberal federalist to a liberal isolationalist overnight. Now, where's me Punts?)

[Sheridan]

I still believe in a European confederation based on workers' rights and international solidarity, not one run for the benefit of corporations and the military-industrial complex.

[Mr A]

A black day for democracy, and a dangerous one too. A lot of No voters stayed at home because, after what happened last time, they realised their vote for worthless. When there's this much anger against the establishment as a whole out there, and you prevent people from effecting change through democratic and constitutional means, you open Pandora's box.

Um, what? It was a referendum, how is that a bad day for democracy? How is only the pre-guarantees vote democratic but the post-guarantees one isn't?

If anything, I believe the voters were scared into voting no the first time, and because this wasn't allowed to happen to the same extent this time a lot of people on the No side somehow feel that's unfair.

dahamsta- I feel that's a bit unfair but can see what you mean taking that post in isolation. Overall I feel this wasn't even one of the bigger EU treaties, basically just a bit of tidying up and stream-lining and I think I've made that pretty clear. In that context I think my post was a fair summation of what I was always likely to feel after a Yes vote.

[dahamsta]

Mr A, saying that "sanity has prevailed" is a smart-assed comment, and not a very clever one at that.

I'm not having a debate with you, I'm telling you: don't post that kind of crap in here again. Understand?

[Mr A]

Fair enough.

[Angus]

Um, what? It was a referendum, how is that a bad day for democracy? .

2 reasons why today is a steaming example of how we do not live in a democracy.

Firstly, according to the Euro elites and the Prime Minister of the country, this treaty was fundamental to our recovery. He, and all of the corporate types managed to persuade 39% of the electorate to support them (67% win of 58% turnout). So, 60% of the Irish failed to support this.

Yes that includes people who for some daft reason did not vote - but let's acknowledge that only 39% of us voted yes. Yes that is our system but it is not democracy.

Secondly today when Cowan, Gormley et al tippied up at Government buildings to take the lap of honour let us examine:


Cowan Nobody ever went into a ballot box and elected him prime minister. Nobody ever voted for him in the knowdge he was Taoiseach

Gormley Sinn Fein out polled the Greens by 50% in the election yet for some reason he is a powerful cabinet member

Harney Even less people voted for the PD's - and anybody who did voted for them thinking McDowell was the leader

Martin I will give you Martin - at least people voted for him knowing he was cabinet material

Roche Mother of god


So yes that is our system - we do not elect a government - we elect a set of individuals who decide who gets to be in government

Yes it is our system but please don't pretend that it is democracy

[Mr A]

I don't see how that's really relevant to today though. Unless you make voting compulsory you won't get everyone to vote, and the fact is that a large majority of those who did voted yes. In fact a lot more voted yes this time than voted no last time- so this is actually more democratic on that score.

[Angus]

I agree with you - maybe I said it badly - I am trying to get to a place where we collectively re-assess what we mean by democracy

It fundamentally galls me that Ireland and the UK have unelected leaders. It galls me that we have said no to Europe twice yet that is taken only as an opening offer. It galls me that the political establishment got 2 NO votes in France and Holland and in order to change the rules they all met in Lisbon, changed the name and therefore created a structure that did not require referenda

All of this was carried out "democratically" based on the rules and systems that we have in place - and todays vote is a resounding result and was carried out legitimately

What I am saying is that "we the people" should not accept the c**p we get from our "leaders", many of whom were not elected to the positions they hold. We need to re-claim the electoral process.

Who elected Pat Cox to anything in the last 15 years ? On the flip side, nobody elected Ganley - but he stood and got a substantial vote - but did not get elected. He did not get elected so he holds no office - that is the way it is supposed to work

Now I am not suggesting that every mid management person in the government architecture needs to be elected - but people with key influence need to be elected - with 2 examples being the President and Foreign Minister of the EU

.....which brings us back to today......

I am not seething at todays result - which is legitimate and resounding - I am seething that the people accept this utterly deformed system of "democracy"

[mypost]

mypost, talking about yourself in the third person is a first indicator of *.

It was used once in one sentence, that best suited it imo. I won't use it again.

[SMorgan]

Some of the comments of the victorious Yes side are a bit hard to take.

The same people that were telling us that the only difference between Ireland and Iceland is one letter and that Ireland faced years in the wilderness with massive job loses, if we didn't vote Yes, are now claiming that the reason people now voted Yes was because they were more enlightened this time round and understood the issues.

[Mr A]

UKIP condemn the poll as 'corrupt' and 'comparable to Zimbabwe or Afghanistan'

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/1003/breaking34.htm

[don ramo]

so where is my new job gonna be so,
how long will it take for these jobs to appear,

[don ramo]

so where is my new job gonna be so,

in sweden, denmark, germany, france and poland

how long will it take for these jobs to appear,

well as soon as pfizers have there plant in spain built, you can head over there,

[don ramo]

hope everyone has there passports up to date lads, casue the celtic tiger is already a pussy cat, now its on death row, :mad:

[John83]

2 reasons why today is a steaming example of how we do not live in a democracy.

Firstly, according to the Euro elites and the Prime Minister of the country, this treaty was fundamental to our recovery. He, and all of the corporate types managed to persuade 39% of the electorate to support them (67% win of 58% turnout). So, 60% of the Irish failed to support this.
Poppycock. 42% of the electorate 'voted' that they didn't care what the outcome was. That the electorate is that disinterested is awful, but it doesn't make the vote any less democratic.


It fundamentally galls me that Ireland and the UK have unelected leaders. It galls me that we have said no to Europe twice yet that is taken only as an opening offer.
I kind of agree, but I've never seen a convincing alternative. The US system of the two dominant parties each putting one candidate forward (other candidates are effectively irrelevant) is hardly better.

[dahamsta]

That's an interesting conversation you're having with yourself there don ramo. You're aware of our single account rule (http://foot.ie/forums/misc.php?do=showrules#singleaccount), yes?

[BohsPartisan]

hope everyone has there passports up to date lads, casue the celtic tiger is already a pussy cat, now its on death row, :mad:

No, its all okay now. The Lisbon Treaty passed, there are going to be jobs coming out of Enda Kenny's @rse on Monday morning.

[Angus]

Poppycock. 42% of the electorate 'voted' that they didn't care what the outcome was. That the electorate is that disinterested is awful, but it doesn't make the vote any less democratic.


Do we not think it a viable statement that in order for the government to effect what they perceive to be hugely important constitutional change upon us that it should require a majority of the people to agree ?

It clearly is not the case today in our current system - but surely by staying away, the government have failed to persuade those people of the fundamental importance of the change to our constitutional arrangements ?

[Angus]

I kind of agree, but I've never seen a convincing alternative. The US system of the two dominant parties each putting one candidate forward (other candidates are effectively irrelevant) is hardly better.

You are right - there is no perfect alternative - but despite the fact that the US is a corrupt society, their system, on paper, is as close to ideal as one could conceive

The US people get to vote every 2 years at national level, get to vote at local level on representative issues and on state level issues - and once they elect congress and the senate, a key piece of their representatives job is to aprpove a vast array of posts within the administration

Miles away from being perfect but nobody in the US has ever been president - or ever will be, without either having been on a national ticket, or having inherited the office through a perverse set of circumstance (both the P and VP killed) - but there is an act of succession

So they will never have a president that is an inconceivable selection - and they get to vote on each one !

We have Jose Manuel Barroso - who nobody voted for

[dahamsta]

While some of the US electoral system's attributes are great - you missed recall elections - it's not "close to ideal" by any stretch of the imagination. Their electoral college system is undemocratic and prone to fraud; single winner is, to be perfectly frank, just plain crap; and their preponderance to make just about everything electoral - sherrif, coroner, judge, parking valet - is just silly.

A mash-up of ours and theirs would be nice though.

adam

[BohsPartisan]

I think the Coir and UKIP thing had an effect alright, as had the vast amounts of money the yes side had at their disposal. All in all it was a farcical campaign from the vast majority on both sides and made a mockery of political engagement.

[Mr A]

I would agree with the above. I think as much as anything the No side lost this as opposed to the Yes side really winning it. Coir did immense damage, they certainly managed to publicise themselves though.

I think Ganley could have made a difference but the Libertas poster campaign was shockingly bad, with the possible exception of the Cowen poster it really can't have done their cause any good.

The No side lacked any real credible voices, hence the nutters were able to set the agenda.

[Sheridan]

So where do I apply for one of these jobs a Yes vote was going to create?

[BohsPartisan]

I think Ganley could have made a difference but the Libertas poster campaign was shockingly bad, with the possible exception of the Cowen poster it really can't have done their cause any good.


Those Libertas ones were almost funny they were so bad. I nearly choked the first time I saw one.

[dahamsta]

So where do I apply for one of these jobs a Yes vote was going to create?Enda Kenny's back passage (http://foot.ie/forums/showthread.php?p=1243490#post1243490), apparently.

[Mr A]

I was under the impression that the Yes side were saying a No vote would cost jobs rather than a Yes vote creating them.

It'll be interesting to see if even a fraction of the bad stuff predicted by the No side comes to pass now that we've broken our sacred covenant with Jesus (http://www.donegaldemocrat.ie/donegalnews/Lisbon-will-undo-39convenant-between.5693176.jp).

[John83]

Do we not think it a viable statement that in order for the government to effect what they perceive to be hugely important constitutional change upon us that it should require a majority of the people to agree ?

It clearly is not the case today in our current system - but surely by staying away, the government have failed to persuade those people of the fundamental importance of the change to our constitutional arrangements ?
Have we ever had an absolute majority of voters for any issue in this country? I don't think it's practical while apathy is an option.

[mypost]

Do people think the likes of ukip cost the no side dearly? I know coir didn't help.

Look lads, the No side didn't lose it. The Yes side didn't win it. Fear won it. My own constituency overturned it's high No vote last year, we lost all bar 2 constituencies. It's not losing that hurts, as much as the scale of the defeat. The Yes side didn't suddenly gain 21% of the public's support in a year. There was another factor, and we have no control over that.

Mary McAleese doesn't have many more duties left, apart from give her assent to the treaty. When someone like Blair becomes EU President, that's who we'll be answerable to.

[Lionel Ritchie]

It'll be interesting to see if even a fraction of the bad stuff predicted by the No side comes to pass now that we've broken our sacred covenant with Jesus (http://www.donegaldemocrat.ie/donegalnews/Lisbon-will-undo-39convenant-between.5693176.jp).

I haven't laughed that hard since the comedy club closed. No father Ted analogy does it. I'd buy a TV licence if RTE would give these people their own prime-time show. They are priceless and would be the funniest thing on telly.

[Sheridan]

I was under the impression that the Yes side were saying a No vote would cost jobs rather than a Yes vote creating them.

It'll be interesting to see if even a fraction of the bad stuff predicted by the No side comes to pass now that we've broken our sacred covenant with Jesus (http://www.donegaldemocrat.ie/donegalnews/Lisbon-will-undo-39convenant-between.5693176.jp).
You're right, a pronouncement by some crackpot holy Joe is definitely comparable to assurances given by all the major parties and multinationals in the state in the course of multi-million euro advertising campaigns.

[don ramo]

That's an interesting conversation you're having with yourself there don ramo. You're aware of our single account rule (http://foot.ie/forums/misc.php?do=showrules#singleaccount), yes?

i know it looks strange but i thought answearing my own questions would look less crazy if i quoted them, :o

but i would like to know the time scale involved as to when we will be exiting this recession, and when all the jobs are coming back, cause we will stay in this recession untill we get positive growth, which will require the country to make money, and for the country to make money, it needs to create jobs,

[mypost]

but i would like to know the time scale involved as to when we will be exiting this recession, and when all the jobs are coming back, cause we will stay in this recession untill we get positive growth, which will require the country to make money, and for the country to make money, it needs to create jobs,

To use the last recession as an example, it began in the mid-70's as a result of the oil crisis and ended in Ireland in 1983, roughly 10 years long. It wasn't until 1994 before jobs became readily available. 21 years after entering the EU.

We should be technically out of recession soon. However, several years of severe budgets dictated by Brussels and Frankfurt, and jobless economic "growth" as a result of those budgets will have to be endured before jobs become readily available here again. The unemployment situation will worsen considerably by that time. That's the reality of what we have to look forward to.

And no vote to make a difference.

[don ramo]

i am deffinately not looking forward to the next decade, but you whats great for creating jobs, a nice big war:D

[Sheridan]

Now we've voted King Tony I into power I'd say the chances of that are pretty high!

[celticV3]

Idiocy!!! And people were conned into a yes vote by this? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sED3iApAvE):o

[mypost]

I paused the vid when I saw who it was. I wouldn't give him the publicity. Same goes for his leader. He is partly responsible for 200k jobs lost, and savage cuts in salaries due to levies.

I would be inclined to agree with the comments below though.

[kingdom hoop]

The falsity of the myth that we were doomed without this treaty will be revealed to all sooner or later

I think the veracity of the myth is that we're some strain of doomed regardless, just probably less doomed with it. Anyway, I wouldn't be expecting too many revelations, or if there are it'll be later rather than sooner - by which stage the intermingling of factors will greatly complicate any investigations into "the effects of Lisbon."

It was always going to be difficult to construct concrete and immediately applicable arguments on the largely abstract base of a Treaty. The practical ramifications can only emerge slowly. So it is just as silly to expect jobs on Monday, as it would be to expect, say, tangible evidence of a lowering in workers' rights had there been a No vote.

Although, on a second's thought, maybe there will be a job or two if the Lisbon Tourist Board cash-in on all the goodwill, ramp up an oul advertising campaign. "Find out what Lisbon's really like!" :p

[Poor Student]

While the No side focused on the minor reduction of our already miniscule voting weights it took attention away from the fact that Ireland exerts its influence in Europe more through deals and coalitions rather than exerting its voting weight alone. Our continued abaility to pursue and defend our interests relies on the goodwill and sentiment of our partners in Europe. That is not scaremongering, that is reality. It is the same in any boardroom or any committe at any level, you will get more done if you get on well with your fellow members. By rejecting a benign treaty like this we risked pushing ourselves to the periphery at a time when we can afford it least. The No campaign, esentially a bizarre coalition of far left and right wing interests, contorted this treaty and sunk the debate to a low level that required the Yes side to match their appeal to baser instincts and insecurity.

[mypost]

While the No side focused on the minor reduction of our already miniscule voting weights it took attention away from the fact that Ireland exerts its influence in Europe more through deals and coalitions rather than exerting its voting weight alone. Our continued abaility to pursue and defend our interests relies on the goodwill and sentiment of our partners in Europe.

We are 0.8% of Europe. Not even a measly 1%. We have neither power nor influence in the EU now.


It is the same in any boardroom or any committe at any level, you will get more done if you get on well with your fellow members. By rejecting a benign treaty like this we risked pushing ourselves to the periphery at a time when we can afford it least.

There is no "Core", and no "periphery" of the EU. It's a political term with no resonance anywhere beyond Brussels.

The Lisbon Treaty is not about what we can afford now, it's about Ireland's standing in the EU 5, 10, 15, 20, 50 years and furthur down the line, and how EU decisions affect us then. It's impossible to have any meaningful influence in something when you're 0.8% of it, and less as new countries are admitted.

It is not a benign treaty, it is the EU rulebook for the rest of our life. What they get done by "getting on well" with other members is of no consequence to Mr and Mrs Average. What is, is the lack of sovereignty and respect for popular democracy, and that is why the implications of this treaty differ from all the rest.

[Poor Student]

Mypost, you're still banging on about 0.8% voting weight as though if it was only just at 1% or at its previous level that makes any practical difference. Our voting weight as it was, is and will be renders us an irrelevance already in a straight vote. You're splitting hairs and you know that. We exert our influence in negotiating away from the voting table.

[BohsPartisan]

I paused the vid when I saw who it was. I wouldn't give him the publicity. Same goes for his leader. He is partly responsible for 200k jobs lost, and savage cuts in salaries due to levies.

I would be inclined to agree with the comments below though.

You should have watched the whole thing so. Shows what a liar he is.

[John83]

i am deffinately not looking forward to the next decade, but you whats great for creating jobs, a nice big war:D
England's still paying off its debt from the Napoleonic wars. Can you imagine the chancers here dealing with that kind of deficit?

[mypost]

You're splitting hairs and you know that. We exert our influence in negotiating away from the voting table.

Part of the argument the other side made, was that the vote would leave us at the "centre of power" in the EU. It entails our strength there been slashed by 60%. We find it difficult enough to make our voice heard in the EU already, now we've made it more difficult for us to preserve the little influence we have.

Having goodwill is all very well, but decisions made have to be voted on. Our voting weight's are insignificant compared to bigger states, decisons we had until yesterday, a stronger say in.

[KevB76]

I tuned into RTE 1 on Saturday morning to see how things were going with Lisbon, after a little while I was getting really annoyed with all the interviews and what have you so i switched to RTE 2

...Shaun the Sheep was on and the story involved a flock of sheep in one field, and a few pigs in another, separated by a high wall. There was an apple tree on the pigs side. The pigs handed over a full sack to the sheep, who were delighted until they emptied the contents to find only a load of sh!t.

Very appropriate I thought, it summed up my thoughts on the whole Lisbon saga.

[dahamsta]

http://synd.imgsrv.uclick.com/comics/jd/2009/jd091004.gif

[mypost]

Saw some of the photos of the government's side supporters celebrating their "victory" in Dublin Castle last week, waving tricolours. :confused: Brussels won, Dublin lost, but they couldn't even get the right flag out to celebrate.

Incidentally post-vote, there haven't been many jobs created, or investment secured. Instead, Aer Lingus announced 700-odd redundancies, GE Money shed 65, 80 more at Technotree, Gallic Distributors let 30 go, ABB announced another 60 will be on the dole queue next year.

It is fair to assume given the constituency returns, that many of those employees believed FF's promises again and ticked the top box last week. Now, they're seeing very clearly the reality of the outcome.