Lisbon Treaty

[NeilMcD]

I wonder what happens now when the start to renegotiate the Treaty. So they go through the wording to what exactly the Irish people rejected and they will be staring at a blank page for ages.

Reasons for rejections

1) Irish people like to use EU referendums and local elections to give two fingers to teh government and the establishment rather than having the balls to actually do it in an election

2) The cautionary principle which states thats if you dont understand a treaty reject it.

3) A terrible effort by the government and other major parties to convince the Irish people of the merits of the treaty.

4) A lack of information and sense of detachment of people from the EU and its bodies.


Its going to be a tough one now for the civil servants and politicians to re-negotiate a treaty nobody can identify key issues or any issues in the actual treaty.

[Calcio Jack]

What were you going to do with the treaty if you were given it? Were you going to knock back for a few hours and have a read? Suppose it'd all fall into place then. Course, you could have read what you were sent in the post beforehand, but that sounds too much like common sense.

There should be regulations to judge you intelligent enough to vote. The first one would be that you'd fail.

Well there isn't...nah,nah na nan nah !! I hope my response demonstrates how silly your comment was...get over it , the 'yes' side lost because they didn't have the intelligence or capability of arguing their view as well as the 'no' side did...

ps... I did read what was issued in the post...and have to say it was a very poor effort IMO it was badly laid out and actually too short and meant one had to go and source a copy of the Treaty and other docs to cross reference them to get the full picture..

"There's no sucess like failure and failures no sucess at all"....until today I never quiet understood what Bob was writing about , now I do.

[GavinZac]

Well there isn't...nah,nah na nan nah !! I hope my response demonstrates how silly your comment was...get over it , the 'yes' side lost because they didn't have the intelligence or capability of arguing their view as well as the 'no' side did...

They didn't have the benefit of being able to blatantly lie either. They could've said "The EU will buy you a house, or buy your house at the previous market rate!" and been within the same margin of truth as the EU army conscription stories.

[Poor Student]

Finally if you have to question Caesar's ideology, then you really are a poor student.

Must say, I resent that implication. Julius Caesar didn't try to unite Europe. He did take control of a Mediterranaen empire based in North Africa and Southern and Western Europe but in my opinion it was personally motived rather than driven by implementing or establishing an ideology.

As for the result, the luddites and the poorly educated made the difference obviously persuaded by some of the utter drivel from the No side. It was disheartening that right up to the last day I came across friends, colleagues and acquaintances with no understanding of the structures of the EU rendering it impossible to refute the falsehoods by now deeply engrained into them. Destroy what you don't understand seemed to be the attitude.

[Poor Student]

They didn't have the benefit of being able to blatantly lie either.

Let's face it, the treaty was a hard sell. Necessary technical adjustments to European structures were hard to sell to people who probably couldn't even name you the key institutions of the EU. Possibly exposing direct democracy at its weakest.:o

[dahamsta]

Threads merged, polls stripped, results merged into post #1.

[jebus]

Quite simply the gloating from the No campaign (people on here personify it) is disgusting, 'Yay we set Europe back by a year or two at a time when it really needs to come together!'. Congratulations :rolleyes:

I'd also like to add that I too am worried about this Jebus/Gavinzac agreement on this issue, if we were to bring back NY Hoop and get him on side could we right call ourselves Foot's Axis of Evil? :p

[GavinZac]

Let's face it, the treaty was a hard sell. Necessary technical adjustments to European structures were hard to sell to people who probably couldn't even name you the key institutions of the EU. Possibly exposing direct democracy at its weakest.:o

Which of course calls into question the point of this going to referendum at all. Why do we elect MEPs to put together these treaties for us, then reject them out of hand without any real research, despite the advice of those we put trust in to develop them? There was a very good post earlier in... well, I guess its somewhere in this thread right now, which pointed out that the usage of a referendum seemed to be more for a mid-term boost for Fianna Fail than any constitutional/legal need for it.

[deecay]

I gather you think we'd be better off with Gerry Adams as Taoiseach then?
The thing about socalist/communist leaders in power is that many see the money and their beliefs go out the window.

I would like Joe Higgins to be Taoiseach

[kingdom hoop]

The No side have been written off for months on end, however he who laughs last, laughs loudest.

So that I might share in your joviality, what exactly is making you laugh?


I'm finding I agree with GavinZac and jebus more often recently. Should I be worried?:)


Not at all. Your screws are good and tight. :)


There was a very good post....

Here ya are Gav. (http://foot.ie/showpost.php?p=948013&postcount=256)

[BohsPartisan]

Quite simply the gloating from the No campaign (people on here personify it) is disgusting, 'Yay we set Europe back by a year or two at a time when it really needs to come together!'. Congratulations :rolleyes:



I'm pro Europe. I'm for a federal Europe. But I'm for a democratic Europe, not one where unelected bureaucrats are calling the shots. There are people celebrating this all over Europe tonight. This is a victory for Europe and a set back for the political class and the media who tried their best to brow beat the Irish people into voting the way they wanted. Needless to say I'm very very happy with the result.
Good for Europe? (http://www.indymedia.ie/cache/imagecache/local/attachments/jun2008/460_0___30_0_0_0_0_0_12._no_free_ride_.jpg)


So that I might share in your joviality, what exactly is making you laugh?


Don't know about him but for me its the Eoin Ryan posters around the place as he looks smugly upon us. The first one I saw after the result was clear made me lol!

[SMorgan]

Quite simply the gloating from the No campaign (people on here personify it) is disgusting,


Funny, what I find disgusting, is the moaning and the pathetic excuses of the pro-Treaty side who appear to be in denial. As Bertie would say, these people are living in La La land if they really believe that the Treaty was rejected on the basis that people were afraid of abortion-on-demand or conscription to a European Army or only being allowed 2 children. The No side won because the Lisbon Treaty was a bad deal for Ireland and the electorate had the intelligence to see that. You'll get over the result a lot faster if you take those blinkers off!!

Finally, I've heard these scare stories that the No side were meant to be coming out with. However I didn't hear them from the many people that stopped me on the street to canvas my support or called to my front door. I heard all these scare stories that the No side were allegedly coming out with from the Yes side. Had they not mentioned it, every time one of them stepped in front of a camera or mic, I wouldn't have been aware of the stories. Perhaps the Treaty would have stood a better chance if the Yes side had concentrated on the issues instead of negative campaigning and mud throwing.

[kingdom hoop]

I'm pro Europe. I'm for a federal Europe. But I'm for a democratic Europe, not one where unelected bureaucrats are calling the shots.

What kind of decision-making structure would you propose given the likelihood of unrelated factors being more important than the substantive issues? The right decision may have been reached here, but can you say it was reached the right way, for the right reasons?


Don't know about him but for me its the Eoin Ryan posters around the place as he looks smugly upon us. The first one I saw after the result was clear made me lol!

:D I can imagine!


these people are living in La La land if they really believe that the Treaty was rejected on the basis that people were afraid of abortion-on-demand or conscription to a European Army or only being allowed 2 children.

There were a multiplicity of reasons for a No vote. Those you mention undoubtedly among them. For example, a lady from Galway was on radio earlier. She said she couldn't make up her mind, but when she got to the booth she did, on the basis that she was protecting her children from being conscripted. Also, two Legion of Mary people called to my door yesterday. They were staunchly No because abortion would be made available in Ireland. Plenty more examples of why people voted No unrelated to what was in the Treaty. That's not denial of the result, but disaffection with the way it was reached. (I was largely ambivalent about the result by the way)

[BohsPartisan]

What kind of decision-making structure would you propose given the likelihood of unrelated factors being more important than the substantive issues? The right decision may have been reached here, but can you say it was reached the right way, for the right reasons?



:D I can imagine!




The Reasons (http://www.indymedia.ie/cache/imagecache/local/attachments/jun2008/460_0___30_0_0_0_0_0_no.jpg)

The vote was nothing to do with corporate tax, abortion or Euthenasia thats for sure.

As for decision making structures, how long have you got? The short answer is I believe in direct democracy with people making decisions themselves at local levels and electing delegates to higher bodies for national and international decision making with all delegates subject to recall if they don't do what they were sent to do. We have some fantastic technology right now that could aid that process but if you want a longer answer you'll have to wait until my celebration drinks have worn off. ;)

[Poor Student]

The Reasons (http://www.indymedia.ie/cache/imagecache/local/attachments/jun2008/460_0___30_0_0_0_0_0_no.jpg)


I don't know about the veracity or accuracy of that poll but if it's true it's a harrowing indictment of ignorance. According to this, 30% of no voters didn't know what they were voting for and 24% voted no to keep Ireland's power and identity. Baffling.

[BohsPartisan]

I don't know about the veracity or accuracy of that poll but if it's true it's a harrowing indictment of ignorance. According to this, 30% of no voters didn't know what they were voting for and 24% voted no to keep Ireland's power and identity. Baffling.

I'm sure among the 30% were people who felt there were parts of the treaty being deliberately kept from them - and they'd have been a shrewder lot than most who voted yes. The 24% would have included those who wanted to keep a democratic say over the 105 areas that were being handed to the unelected commission. The poll by the way was from the Irish Times.

[pete]

Surprised at the i believe 53% turn out.

From talking to people that were going to Vote many said they did not understand the Treaty. I think it is likely they were not familiar with the institutions.

I think overall FF did an exceptionally poor job so hard to know if it would make a difference. Cowan is off to terrible start as it will be like noose around his neck everytime he goes to EU meetings and has to stand in the corner.

Still waiting for a solution from the No side. The EU cannot continue to function where 1 small country can veto the actions of the remaining 26. I think there is a chance we will lose negotiating power being outside the "heart of Europe". Just look at the UK with a lot of votes in the EU but little influence.

[mypost]

Surprised at the i believe 53% turn out.

Still waiting for a solution from the No side. The EU cannot continue to function where 1 small country can veto the actions of the remaining 26. I think there is a chance we will lose negotiating power being outside the "heart of Europe". Just look at the UK with a lot of votes in the EU but little influence.

Not quite the 47% No vote, eh??

We have a solution already, which is the one we're currently working with. There is no reason whatsoever for this con job to come into effect, only to rub politico's ego's. The fact that 1 country vetoes the actions of the others, is not our fault, nor responsibility, that lies with the big states in the EU who, after the French and Dutch told them where to go last time, demanded that it should not be put to referendum anywhere bar here. The Czech President has already stated that following our No vote, their ratification process may not go ahead. I suspect more parliaments may follow suit. We may not be alone on this after all, but even if we are, the EU might be able to screw the Spanish electorate, the UK electorate, the Hungarian electorate by banning them from having referendums, but they can never screw ours. They can respect our result the hard way or the easy way. The hard being, if they want us to vote again, sure we'll vote No and No and No again until they get the message. The easy way would be to throw the whole thing in the bin, where it belongs. It is invalid without our approval and that's that.

On a sidebar, I am personally disgusted with the branding of the No voters, as "clueless" and "working-class". :mad:This crap was rejected in 33 of our constituencies, by voters from all backgrounds and from all over the country, who stood up for Ireland and refused to be bullied by the lobby groups, the government, and the EU, into voting their way. This is the third time it has been rejected, it is only fit for shredding. Get back to operating the EU under the Nice Treaty which is the fairest solution there is.

[BohsPartisan]

I think there is a chance we will lose negotiating power being outside the "heart of Europe". Just look at the UK with a lot of votes in the EU but little influence.

Jaysus, Fine Gael's poster worked on one person anyway! :D

[jebus]

Funny, what I find disgusting, is the moaning and the pathetic excuses of the pro-Treaty side who appear to be in denial. As Bertie would say, these people are living in La La land if they really believe that the Treaty was rejected on the basis that people were afraid of abortion-on-demand or conscription to a European Army or only being allowed 2 children

I don't think anyone thinks that, most Yes voters I know that are disgusted with this think a lot of people voted No because the Irish voters are known for looking after number one, the 'what's in it for me' attitude. This ******** about going back to Europe and getting more for Ireland sickens me, as if they had never done anything for this small tin pot country that we once were. There were people I know who were saying they were voting No because of the Neutrality issue, or they don't want to give up the commisioner (they failed to understand that a) the commisioner was meant to work in Europe's interests anyway, and b) that was across the board, not just for Ireland), but I'd say they were in the minority. You also had people like MyPost on here and he's advocating voting No if you were undecided, where as the Yes voters I know advocated not voting if you were undecided, perhaps we shouldn't have 'bullied' them that way :rolleyes:

All in all I'm very disappointed that this island still has such an insular view on the world at large, and there's a large part of me hoping that the EU does push on with this and give Ireland an ultimatum of like it or lump, not the most democratic of outlooks I grant you, but then I don't trust the Irish public in voting (here, the abortion issue and the national elections have brought that on).

And honestly BohsPartisan I give you a bit more credit than to believe that only the Yes side were trying to browbeat the Irish public into voting one way. SMorgan I'm sorry to hear that you are in fact blind, and am intrigued as to how you post on here, given that you didn't see any of the No campaign's posters.


The Reasons (http://www.indymedia.ie/cache/imagecache/local/attachments/jun2008/460_0___30_0_0_0_0_0_no.jpg)

Honestly three of the top four reasons are moronic

[BohsPartisan]

Honestly three of the top four reasons are moronic


As I already said there are probably several sub-groups put together and named by the people collating the data. Its common practice, I work with stats and we do it all the time. The categories are based on a subjective interpretation of the data. So if someone answered, I think the government are deceiving us, (which they were), it would go into that top category. If someone said because there will be areas of decision making taken away from us they'd have been put in the sovereignty category, if they said they were concerned with the militarisation of Europe it would have gone under neutrality etc. None of those reasons are moronic. What is absolutely pitiful is the whinging of the yes side. I have never seen so many grown adults acting like tantrum throwing toddlers.

[jebus]

If Yes had won you'd be saying we are gloating, and we'd be saying you are whinging, instead it's the other way around, big surprise

[BohsPartisan]

If Yes had one you'd be saying we are gloating, and we'd be saying you are whinging, instead it's the other way around, big surprise

Only if you were actually gloating. I don't think I'm gloating too much. I'm very happy with the result and have no problem letting that show but I haven't been attacking people on the Yes side for their supposed stupidity as you have been doing to the No side. Jebus, honestly I always though you were one of the more clued in foot.ie posters (you and ltid which gave me a good impression of Limerick fans!) but you are completely off the mark on this issue and like the very few people I know wo voted yes, are in a state of denial.

What happened yesterday and thursday was IMO the most positive thing to happen to this country in ages. People who don't normally vote got up and had their say. There was a decent turn out and a majority of the people who voted told the entire political establishment and the media that they won't be bullied or talked down to.

[jebus]

Only if you were actually gloating. I don't think I'm gloating too much.

You're not, but I'm on about the No side in general just as I assume you're on about the Yes side whinging in general. Forgive me if I'm coming off bitter but when you've just read a report with Mary Lou McDonald crowing about the result, Gerry Adams pushing her as champion of the people, and then you hear that Libertas might be launching a political group off the back of this (good luck to them :D) you tend to sound a bit ****ed off


What happened yesterday and thursday was IMO the most positive thing to happen to this country in ages. People who don't normally vote got up and had their say. There was a decent turn out and a majority of the people who voted told the entire political establishment and the media that they won't be bullied or talked down to.

You see I understand why people like yourself voted No, I really do, Wangball on this forum is another one I've talked to about this and he has valid reasons for voting no, which is all fine. What I can't stand is the feeling that this Treaty was shot down because the No vote were able to scare a minority into voting no, and then persuade those that didn't read up on the Treaty to vote No instead of just not voting. To that end I'm not happy with the result (would like to think I wouldn't be if that margin of people pushed the Yes vote through too), but I'm not 100% sure that a lot of the No vote came from people that don't understand why they were voting No, that's not what the democratic process should be about in my opinion. And do you not think Libertas and their ilk weren't bullying people to vote No as well?

[dahamsta]

What's to be p*ssed off about? Do you really think anything of significance is going to change because of this? Honestly? We all know damn well it isn't. Ireland's not going to be booted out of the EU, neither are we going to resign from it. Ireland isn't going to be "punished" - honest to god - because the EU can't be seen to be doing that, particularly given the outpouring of support for our decision by the man on the street in the countries that weren't allowed to vote.

And we all know that the people behind this won't give up, that they'll be back again with another version. It's probably already drafted. It probably has a few concessions in it to push it through, just less than half of what we want. That's how politics works.

Get over yourself, it's not the end of the world.

adam

[dahamsta]

By the way, the "No Plan B" line being put about by yesterday - including by the Head F*cker himself - is the most disingenuous poppycock they've come out with yet. There's always a Plan B in politics, because again, that's how politics works. To suggest that they haven't even considered the possibility that we'd vote No is an outright lie on their part.

The only alternative is that they're telling the truth, which makes them utterly unfit to lead, on a level talent and intelligence-wise with Martin Cullen. Although I'm not sure who'd argue with that today anyway.

adam

[BohsPartisan]

And do you not think Libertas and their ilk weren't bullying people to vote No as well?

I think Libertas were honest enough in what I know of them (which isn't that much because I pretty much ignored them) but their concerns would not be mine. Cóir were peddling some crazy sh"t but I don't know anyone who voted no because of "euthanasia" or "abortion" and on that poll those reasons didn't register. I don't think what they did can be regarded in the same light as the Yes side's "Vote Yes or your going to be in all kind of **** you bunch of stupid ignorant plebs" campaign, fully endorsed by the media.

By the way I was surprised when I woke up this morning and looked out the window. Where is the chaos I was promised?

[jebus]

What's to be p*ssed off about? Do you really think anything of significance is going to change because of this? Honestly? We all know damn well it isn't. Ireland's not going to be booted out of the EU, neither are we going to resign from it. Ireland isn't going to be "punished" - honest to god - because the EU can't be seen to be doing that, particularly given the outpouring of support for our decision by the man on the street in the countries that weren't allowed to vote.

And we all know that the people behind this won't give up, that they'll be back again with another version.

Your last line is what I'm ****ed off about. Nothing would have changed in the general populaces eyes if it had been passed either. Where have I said we'll be punished? I've said the EU could press ahead and issue us with an invite to join anyway, which Italy and Croatia have said they are in favour of this morning, and that it would be up to us to choose then, but I haven't said Germany are going to rain hell, fire and brimstone on us have I? Take your own advice from your next quote


Get over yourself, it's not the end of the world.

Yes because I've been littering my discussions talking about the Jebus clause of the Lisbon treaty :rolleyes:

[GavinZac]

I'm pro Europe. I'm for a federal Europe. But I'm for a democratic Europe, not one where unelected bureaucrats are calling the shotsUnelected? Name one. This treaty was put together by elected officials including our own.

a set back for the political class
What in the flying **** is the political class?

It's probably already drafted. It probably has a few concessions in it to push it through, just less than half of what we want. That's how politics works.
What do we want?

[osarusan]

What do we want?
It seems to be very difficult to tell. I've read on various sites that it was easy to identify voter dissatisfacion with the Nice treaty, and deal with it to the voters' satisfaction.

With this, the issues seem to be more wide-ranging, and in some cases false, and will be very difficult to deal with to satisfy those who voted 'no' first time around.

That said, I think that if the government put enough money and effort into it, and really tried, they could get a 'yes' vote.

[BohsPartisan]

Unelected? Name one. This treaty was put together by elected officials including our own.

What in the flying **** is the political class?

What do we want?

Seeing as how our "elected officials" didn't even read it (by their own admission) I don't see how they had much of a hand in drafting it. The impetus for this has always come from the European Commission (EC), who draft most of Europe's laws and are not elected but appointed. Think about it, the executive branch of the EU is not elected.The EC is deeply influenced by the European Round Table of Industrialists (http://www.ert.be/home.aspx) who are a "forum" or think tank comprising 45 CEO's of major multinational corporations. These are the interests the current version of the EU represents and had Lisbon been passed, more areas of policy would have passed under their control.

The political class? You know, those guys who make all the decisions.Class is probably not an accurate term, more caste but you get the idea.




That said, I think that if the government put enough money and effort into it, and really tried, they could get a 'yes' vote.

You serious? Do you realise how much money and effort went into this Yes campaign?

[superfrank]

I'm pro Europe. I'm for a federal Europe. But I'm for a democratic Europe, not one where unelected bureaucrats are calling the shots.
Well you shafted your fellow Europeans voting no.

As it is, the EU is undemocratic. A country like Ireland has a disproportionate amount of power. And you voted to keep that in your belief that it is "democratic".

To me, the main reason the No vote one is because Irish people are selfish. We want to keep this imbalance in our favour. The EU should be run on the principle of democracy where each EU citizen has a vote. But we don't want that because we'll lose influence as a nation. We will continue to spit in the face of democracy and people on the No side will continue to proclaim Ireland as a democratic nation. ********.

[BohsPartisan]

Well you shafted your fellow Europeans voting no.

As it is, the EU is undemocratic. A country like Ireland has a disproportionate amount of power. And you voted to keep that in your belief that it is "democratic".


What a load of rubbish. The French and Dutch already voted against this thing in its previous form and I have seen messages of congratulations to the Irish from French, Dutch, Greek (who had a major protest in Athens against it when it was ratified there on Wednesday), German and English people. How is taking 105 policy areas out of the hands of elected governments and putting them into the hands of the unelected commission more democratic? About as Democratic as the DDR was! Thats real plus good doublespeak.

I still don't get how you can spout that rubbish!


The EU should be run on the principle of democracy where each EU citizen has a vote.

Er yes it should, but how many of them got to vote on the Lisbon Treaty? I think you don't understand the concept that the Treaty was pushing. It wasn't giving equal say to the citizens of Europe,it was giving extra powers to unelected commissioners from bigger countries.



We will continue to spit in the face of democracy and people on the No side will continue to proclaim Ireland as a democratic nation. ********.

lol!

We spat in the face of democracy by being the only country to give its citizens a vote! :D

The only thing I agree with you on is that the EU is undemocratic but this would have made it less democratic!

How hard are these concepts for you to grasp?
105 policy areas taken away from elected representatives and give to the jurisdiction of unelected commissioners.

The possibility of us being asked to vote for any further changes to the EU by referendum being removed - in effect allowing those unelected commissioners to do as they please from here on in.

487,000,000 Europeans denied the right to vote on the treaty.

The one country that allows its people to vote has the Treaty rejected by a clear majority!

Then you claim the No side are the ones spitting in the face of Democracy? Get a grip.

[pete]

Nice establish a reduction in Commissioners once we got to 27 countries. We negotiated a deal equal to all other countries. The next negotiation will be the same or worse. Amazing the Yes side did not inform people of this as the days of permanent Commissioner already dead.

[SMorgan]

Nice establish a reduction in Commissioners once we got to 27 countries. We negotiated a deal equal to all other countries. The next negotiation will be the same or worse. Amazing the Yes side did not inform people of this as the days of permanent Commissioner already dead.

There is a method to their madness.

If they explained that, then they'd have to justify the undertaking they gave during the Nice debate that Ireland would NOT lose its commissionor for 130 years.

[Poor Student]

Er yes it should, but how many of them got to vote on the Lisbon Treaty? I think you don't understand the concept that the Treaty was pushing. It wasn't giving equal say to the citizens of Europe,it was giving extra powers to unelected commissioners from bigger countries.


Eh? Since when was a distinction made between commissioners of different sized countries?

[BohsPartisan]

Eh? Since when was a distinction made between commissioners of different sized countries?

Sorry I did two versions of that post, deleted a part of it and replaced it with other stuff but left stuff in from the original version by mistake. Editing mishap.

[eamo1]

If the debate on t.v and newspapers was half as informed and lively as this one on here it would have made for a better campaign for both sides,fair play lads.not sure ive seen a thread go to 35 pages either:).

[GavinZac]

Seeing as how our "elected officials" didn't even read it (by their own admission) I don't see how they had much of a hand in drafting it. The impetus for this has always come from the European Commission (EC), who draft most of Europe's laws and are not elected but appointed. Think about it, the executive branch of the EU is not elected.
Every member of the commission is an elected representative of the people, nominated to the commission as an expert in their area to act on behalf of the EU. That they aren't from one of the political parties you support does not make them unelected.

[BohsPartisan]

Every member of the commission is an elected representative of the people, nominated to the commission as an expert in their area to act on behalf of the EU. That they aren't from one of the political parties you support does not make them unelected.


Charlie McCreevy (http://ec.europa.eu/commission_barroso/mccreevy/index_en.htm) - what is he an expert in exactly? Who was he elected by?

[SMorgan]

Every member of the commission is an elected representative of the people, nominated to the commission as an expert in their area to act on behalf of the EU. That they aren't from one of the political parties you support does not make them unelected.

That's downright silly. A person hasn't a mandate and should be considered unelected if they are outside their term of office or carrying out a role for which they not previously elected. Even the YES side accepted that during the debate. The good people of Hartlepool didn't elect Peter Mandalson to look after agricultural in Latvia.

Martin tried to getting around the argument by claiming that the commission is the EU's Civil Service. The Danish MEP he was debating the point with said that it is it's the only Civil Service in the world that initiates legislation.

[mypost]

I'm very disappointed that this island still has such an insular view on the world at large, and there's a large part of me hoping that the EU does push on with this and give Ireland an ultimatum of like it or lump, not the most democratic of outlooks I grant you, but then I don't trust the Irish public in voting (here, the abortion issue and the national elections have brought that on).

The EU belongs to 500 million citizens, not 500 politicians in Brussels. Our vote was a vote for the freedom of citizens throughout the block. All citizens consider themselves Irish/Greek/Latvian/Czech, before European, and all citizens are going to want what's best for themselves. That applied not just here, but in France and Holland already, and is true right across the continent. Most national referendums would be defeated, plainly and simply, because it's wanted like a hole in the head by citizens. The bureaucrats need it, we don't.

My main reasons behind my vote, and votes in the future if required, are to do with sovereignty, democracy, and tax harmonisation. I simply don't believe that our tax rate will be unaffected. The document has been written in such a legal way, that there's bound to be loopholes in it exploited against this country by the big countries soon after adoption. I also felt obliged as a democrat to uphold the referenda results in France and Holland, which were ignored.

Barroso has told everyone to continue ratification. But this is more likely to deter ratification by other member states, than continue it. There will be enormous pressure on Brown and Klaus, among others to abandon it, as there is now no point in going ahead with it. Once one country says No, it creates a snowball effect. Suddenly, the others are not compelled to ratify it. If there are 2, 3 or more countries not ratifying it, it's not going to be a demand of "vote for it or else".

People 1-0 Politicians. They lost, and all the sulking here and in Europe isn't going to change it.

[GavinZac]

My main reasons behind my vote, and votes in the future if required, are to do with...fantastic! here we g lads, we can finally work out what we need to do to get a hypothetical "Lisbon II" passed!
...sovereigntyoh. You mean the concerns about the EU pushing abortions and going to war on our behalf and other makey-uppy things that popped in to some goon in Libertas' head. Well, maybe 2/3 won't be so bad...
...democracyDang. I forgot you don't like democracy, or "majoritarianism" as the No campaign refered to it. You'd rather your vote count for more than anyone elses', and you want Ireland to keep its commissioner all the time, unlike the other 27 states. Er, well I guess the EU are sort of attached to democracy. Well, dahamsta said we'd get just less than 1/2 of what we want. Maybe 1/3?
...and tax harmonisation.Oh. Another thing which is completely fictional and which dozens of MEPs, etc have attested to its falsehood? Which the Referendum Commission felt compelled to specifically state that tax is something which we retain a veto on, and cannot be forced into accepting? Never mind (the/yet another) logical flaw that the big businesses you keep referring to as running the EU would more likely impose our tax on the other countries, than vice versa...


The document has been written in such a legal wayWait, you've finally read it?,
that there's bound to be loopholes in it exploited against this country by the big countries soon after adoption.Obviously every credible politician and industrial body on this island bows to your knowledge of legal documents. Why didn't you inform us sooner? Perhaps we could send you on a copy of Lisbon I and a few highlighters, and you could suggest some amendments.

People 1-0 Politicians.This, unfortunately, is your problem. Most people see politicans as people like ourselves, who have proven themselves, if not describable as "trustworthy", then at least more trustworthy than you or I or their peerss for the job of making decisions for good of people in general. You've never backed a winning politician in your life, and you like it that way. You see them, as someone ludicrously called them earlier, as "the political class".

[Lionel Ritchie]

I'm not exactly weeping into my coffee that Lisbon was rejected, but I'm somewhat more comfortable about having voted Yes and not deserving the backslaps of these clowns.

http://www.ukip.org/ukip/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=670&Itemid=57

http://www.bnp.org.uk/2008/06/ireland-rejects-the-lisbon-treaty/

http://www.frontnational.com/

[seanfhear]

The people who voted no are vindicated by the reaction to the vote.We pay for the politicians with our hard earned taxes so that when in elections or referenda we make our choices they will implement them.We do not expect them to turn around afterwards and say we dont like your choices this is what we are going to do.The business and political elites are doing very well out of the eu .Working peoples pay and conditions are being squeezed to the lowest common denominater.Because this does not effect the elites they have no empathy with their fellow citizens.Can you imagine the reaction in leinster house if i walked in with twenty eastern europeans and offered to do their jobs for twenty five per cent less.The squealling from the trough munchers would be heard on the moon.This is what is happening to ordinarg working people everyday the difference is that in our society these type of people dont matter and not allowed to have any influence.Well some of these people spoke yesterday

[GavinZac]

The people who voted no are vindicated by the reaction to the vote.We pay for the politicians with our hard earned taxes so that when in elections or referenda we make our choices they will implement them.We do not expect them to turn around afterwards and say we dont like your choices this is what we are going to do.The business and political elites are doing very well out of the eu .Working peoples pay and conditions are being squeezed to the lowest common denominater.Because this does not effect the elites they have no empathy with their fellow citizens.Can you imagine the reaction in leinster house if i walked in with twenty eastern europeans and offered to do their jobs for twenty five per cent less.I'd imagine you'd be laughed at, because government is not a business. Now, if you got the 20 eastern europeans elected as being reputable, trustworthy and skilled enough to run the local issues in a country that isn't their own, fair play to you, but...
This is what is happening to ordinarg working people everyday the difference is that in our society these type of people dont matter and not allowed to have any influence.Well some of these people spoke yesterday...by "ordinary working people" I assume you mean unskilled or trade-trained workers who do the exact same job as the eastern European lads in the exact same living environment and yet want more money. If your quarrel with the EU is free movement of people, which the Lisbon treaty had nothing to do with in the first place, then I'm afraid that is one thing we either love or leave.

I'm not exactly weeping into my coffee that Lisbon was rejected, but I'm somewhat more comfortable about having voted Yes and not deserving the backslaps of these clowns.oh, this is being celebrated by right wing and left wing and looney wing extremists everywhere. These guys seem to think the Irish people have had enough of monetary banking, of all things.
http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=273788
Actual quote:
"What with all the EU/American investment into Ireland the last 15-20 years, the Irish have all but forgot about what makes us Irish. Survival, enduring hardship, sense of community and dependence on neighbours etc..."
Down with quality of life! Subsistence for all!

[seanfhear]

[quote=GavinZac;962944]I'd imagine you'd be laughed at, because government is not a business. Now, if you got the 20 eastern europeans elected as being reputable, trustworthy and skilled enough to run the local issues in a country that isn't their own, fair play to you,
wow you must be in awe of the trough munchers in leinster house.Most are selected for their political parties because of family ties or knowing the right people.They get elected because of blind party loyalties.I hope that after this vote the electorate will pay much more attention to the issues.
Iwould be very confident that Icould get better skilled and better enlightened immigrants to do their part-time jobs for less cost to the taxpayer

[BohsPartisan]

This, unfortunately, is your problem. Most people see politicans as people like ourselves, who have proven themselves, if not describable as "trustworthy", then at least more trustworthy than you or I or their peerss for the job of making decisions for good of people in general. You've never backed a winning politician in your life, and you like it that way. You see them, as someone ludicrously called them earlier, as "the political class".

That is hilarious. So your saying Bertie and all the people who backed him are trustworthy?
By the way they are not people like you and me, they are (mostly) career politicians and for them career comes before anything that is for the good of people in general.

[seanfhear]

...by "ordinary working people" I assume you mean unskilled or trade-trained workers who do the exact same job as the eastern European lads in the exact same living environment and yet want more money. If your quarrel with the EU is free movement of people, which the Lisbon treaty had nothing to do with in the first place, then I'm afraid that is one thing we either love or leave
From the above response i am going to guess that you have had the benefit of a good education and perhaps a good qualification[good luck to you but not everyone is that lucky]People that are not that lucky are entitled to be concerned about their pay and conditions.Also people that do not want to enter the dog eat dog world that is the business but are willing to do an honest days work need some protection from the race to the lowest wage that is happening now.If you pay your taxes and are law abiding surely you deserve some protection as a citizen otherwise why bother lets all go around with knives and guns and take what we want with might being right
I do not know how to quote individual segments of your post so hope you can get the jist of what Iam trying to say

[GavinZac]

That is hilarious. So your saying Bertie and all the people who backed him are trustworthy? Moreso than, for example, you. Apart from corruption, there's the trust that you actually have a clue what you're doing, which I'd imagine you wouldn't convince many of, or you'd have joined the cash cow yourself.

By the way they are not people like you and me, they are (mostly) career politicians and for them career comes before anything that is for the good of people in general.No, they're not. Career politicians? The harshest criticism they come in for is conflicts of interests because of business interests and such. Besides, putting your own interests ahead of 'people in general' is generally not a good way to extend your life as a career politician.


From the above response i am going to guess that you have had the benefit of a good education and perhaps a good qualification[good luck to you but not everyone is that lucky]People that are not that luckyLuck has nothing to do with it. We have free education in this country right up to bachelors degree. I was 'lucky' enough to even have a masters degree that was subsidised by those wage-lowering bashturds in the EU. If someone feels the inclination to step off the education conveyor belt because the construction industry happens to be booming or a foreign multinational opens a factory line in their town, they are perfectly entitled to do so, but...
are entitled to be concerned about their pay and conditions.Also people that do not want to enter the dog eat dog world that is the business but are willing to do an honest days work need some protection from the race to the lowest wage that is happening now. ... they can have little complaint with the reality that if someone else, regardless of whether he is Lithuanian or Polish, can do the same job or better, for more competitive wages, whilst paying the same bills that your or I do, then the factory, or site or whoever are perfectly entitled under EU law, in any EU state, to pick them over you.

Complain all you like about low wages, but your case doesn't really stand up if someone else is quite content on those wages. Thats how a union works; unfortunately there isn't much unity because there isn't much validity to most of the complaints.

Again, however, this is all off topic because freedom of movement for EU citizens has nothing to do with the Lisbon Treaty and if someone voted No to this treaty on that basis then they were either malicious or lied to.


If you pay your taxes and are law abiding surely you deserve some protection as a citizen otherwise why bother lets all go around with knives and guns and take what we want with might being rightI have no idea what this has to do with anything. People need protection against crime. EU nationals working here is not a crime, and if you feel it should be, then you have far bigger concerns about the EU than the Lisbon Treaty's allocation of votes.