Lisbon Treaty

[pineapple stu]

And of course, the sample of 15 football fans is obviously perfectly representative of the country.

Read a column by Micheál Martin in the Irish Times on Tuesday - he couldn't give one reason to vote for the treaty. It would somehow give us jobs and money, the No arguments weren't valid and scaremongering is wrong (except when it's the Yes side that's doing it). That and my general Euro scepticism sealed my No vote.

[BohsPartisan]

I'm hoping this Treaty will mean the end to pointless Referendums like this, the one on divorce, the one on abortion, etc. It's like asking the baying mob what to do with Jesus at times. Hopefully we as an electorate would pull the finger out at local and national elections, elect competent officials and let them get on with the job of deciding these issues

Why bother with elections at all, surely someone with a double barrel name would run the country a lot better? :rolleyes:

[jebus]

Why bother with elections at all, surely someone with a double barrel name would run the country a lot better? :rolleyes:

Elections are needed, asking a bunch of people who largely don't care to vote on issues that they haven't a clue on isn't. Politicians should be able to read these documents and make a valid judgement on it, I realise ours seem unwilling to do so but I never said I supported our current crop did I?

[BohsPartisan]

Elections are needed, asking a bunch of people who largely don't care to vote on issues that they haven't a clue on isn't. Politicians should be able to read these documents and make a valid judgement on it, I realise ours seem unwilling to do so but I never said I supported our current crop did I?

But you're supporting them now. If you don't trust them on other issues why on this one? I also disagree with what you are saying. here is no reason for a treaty not to be readable by all literate adults. (and illiterate politicians).

[pete]

RTE said turnout expected to be in the low to mid 40s which is higher than Nice 1 but lower than Nice 2.

Voted at around 8.30 & definitely well below 50% on my sheet.

[pete]

Running this today and tomorrow only, so vote early or... um... don't vote at all?

or Mods can vote early & often ;)

I gave Yes my number 1 vote & No number 2. It is important to use all your votes.

[mypost]

Turnout doesn't indicate a result. The count does. Whether the turnout is 40% or 80%, every voter has the 50/50 choice of which box to mark.


Politicians should be able to read these documents and make a valid judgement on it, I realise ours seem unwilling to do so but I never said I supported our current crop did I?

All irrelevant really.

Our constitution requires a referendum on European Union treaties. However, our constitution, drawn up at the foundation of the State, will be torn up in 60 pieces tomorrow should there be a Yes vote, replaced by the EU Constitution, i.e. France, Germany, and the UK's rules, not ours.

[dahamsta]

No it means they can't bitch about this issue. All other issues are fair game. Being apathetic (faily sure thats a word...) doesn't make you a loser.In my experience people that don't vote, don't vote, fullstop.

Perhaps "loser" isn't the best word. I'm not allowed use the words I'd commonly describe them as.

adam

[dahamsta]

Just on the comments about this poll, Foot.ie polls generally get it "wrong", i.e. the results here tend to go against the actual results. The same goes for Boards.ie. I think that Irish web communities tend to lean to liberalism more than meatspace.

adam

[Dodge]

Perhaps "loser" isn't the best word. I'm not allowed use the words I'd commonly describe them as.


So now you're into democracy, eh?

[pineapple stu]

Just on the comments about this poll, Foot.ie polls generally get it "wrong", i.e. the results here tend to go against the actual results. The same goes for Boards.ie. I think that Irish web communities tend to lean to liberalism more than meatspace.

adam
Younger sample. In 30 years' time, the country will be perfect!

Should probably kill all females too, just to be on the safe side.

[jebus]

But you're supporting them now. If you don't trust them on other issues why on this one? I also disagree with what you are saying. here is no reason for a treaty not to be readable by all literate adults. (and illiterate politicians).

I trust Libertas, Sinn Fein and the Catholic Church even less though. I've read the Treaty and feel I understand some aspects of it (granted you'd need to take a course on it to fully understand it), and am in favour of a common defence and environment policy. I also hope that, despite the main party assurances to the contrary, that we may get such things as abortion brought into this country without the hysterical bleating of the Church, Sinn Fein and that month's Libertas when it is brought to an inevitable referendum.

As for hopefully getting rid of pointless referendums, well I don't trust the Irish public to make an informed decision on anything, we as a people seem to be even easier to lead by the media than most, possibly because we don't have the strict Party voting that places like Britain or America do, not that that's a great method of deciding either



Our constitution requires a referendum on European Union treaties

Yeah, like I was saying, I hope to get rid of that. I'm not one for saying 'it was in the constitution that was drawn up decades ago so we must hold true to it'. Times change, countries change, people change and we all must learn to move on

[Calcio Jack]

Was undecided as to how to vote as I entered the polling booth. Then looked at the ballot paper..which simply asked something like " Do you agree with the amendment to the Irish Constitution"....now I knew exactly what the proposed ammendment involved was ie the ratification of the Lisbon Treaty and acceptance of it's effect on our own Constitution.

However I felt that the overly simplistic manner in which the ballot paper was worded wasn't fair to anyone who hadn't studied in great detail the issue. Thus I went back to the table where I'd checked in my voting card and asked for a detailed copy of what I was being asked to vote on...was met by a combination of blank stare/are you an eejit sure everyone knows and finally we haven't anything.... I went back and voted 'no' on the basis that if the powers that be couldn't offer me a explanation of what it was about, then why should i vote yes... in effect we were being asked yesterday to sign an agreeement without being shown the small print

[OneRedArmy]

Turnout doesn't indicate a result. The count does. Whether the turnout is 40% or 80%, every voter has the 50/50 choice of which box to mark..Technically correct, in practice an irrelevant comment. Both sides have acknowledged that the greater the turnout the greater propensity of Yes votes.




Our constitution requires a referendum on European Union treaties. However, our constitution, drawn up at the foundation of the State, will be torn up in 60 pieces tomorrow should there be a Yes vote, replaced by the EU Constitution, i.e. France, Germany, and the UK's rules, not ours.If thats your fear, you're about 10 years too late.

[noby]

Uhm, the powers that be did offer explanations, and for and against arguments. They just didn't provide them at the polling stations. Polling stations are for polling.

I voted Tá.

[passinginterest]

I voted yes. Last minute decision too. I think the fact that so many different organisations came together on the yes side, many of whom are frequently at each others throats, swung it in the end. With Sinn Fein and a dodgy organisation called 'Libertas' championing a no vote I couldn't quite go that way. Very disappointed with the lack of information from the yes side though, it was more or less a case of 'do what you're told', if I wasn't generally pro European I'd have definitely voted no.

I also may have spoiled my vote, I didn't think the punch holes were fully through so I tried to fix them and may have ripped it a little. I was considering spoiling it anyway, that's how on the fence I was.

[Stevo Da Gull]

Should probably kill all females too, just to be on the safe side.

That's a bit OTT.... just take away their voting rights ;)

[anto1208]

Was undecided as to how to vote as I entered the polling booth. Then looked at the ballot paper..which simply asked something like " Do you agree with the amendment to the Irish Constitution"....now I knew exactly what the proposed ammendment involved was ie the ratification of the Lisbon Treaty and acceptance of it's effect on our own Constitution.

However I felt that the overly simplistic manner in which the ballot paper was worded wasn't fair to anyone who hadn't studied in great detail the issue. Thus I went back to the table where I'd checked in my voting card and asked for a detailed copy of what I was being asked to vote on...was met by a combination of blank stare/are you an eejit sure everyone knows and finally we haven't anything.... I went back and voted 'no' on the basis that if the powers that be couldn't offer me a explanation of what it was about, then why should i vote yes... in effect we were being asked yesterday to sign an agreeement without being shown the small print

The treaty itself was there for all to see.

This has annoyed me this time people saying i dont understand it then you ask them

did you read the treaty ? NO
did you read the booklet sent out to you ? No
Did you watch /listen to any of the shows that outlined it ? No Its the goverments fault i dont know whats in it :eek:

[Lionel Ritchie]

Listening to the tallies coming in on Pat Kenny and even with the cautions about early tallies -it's dead in the water. A solid NO all over the shop ...even in many middle class areas.

[Calcio Jack]

The treaty itself was there for all to see.

This has annoyed me this time people saying i dont understand it then you ask them

did you read the treaty ? NO
did you read the booklet sent out to you ? No
Did you watch /listen to any of the shows that outlined it ? No Its the goverments fault i dont know whats in it :eek:


My point is that when I asked for a copy at my polling station , they didn't offer it to me..but treated me with distain and seemed annoyed that I was looking for help. If as you say it was there for all to see then surely not too much to expect when I asked for it that they might show it to me...

[pete]

However I felt that the overly simplistic manner in which the ballot paper was worded wasn't fair to anyone who hadn't studied in great detail the issue.

Definitely the worst argument for voting one way or the other I have heard so far. Did you think you could read the Treaty at the polling station before you voted? Did you read the booklet at home? Maybe you are new to referendums but they always refer to a piece of legislation.

:eek::rolleyes:

[noby]

Sounds to me like you were looking for an excuse to vote no.
If you were unhappy with the 'facilities' at the polling station why didn't you walk away? Or spoil your vote? Why should that warrant a No vote?

[GavinZac]

My point is that when I asked for a copy at my polling station , they didn't offer it to me..but treated me with distain and seemed annoyed that I was looking for help. If as you say it was there for all to see then surely not too much to expect when I asked for it that they might show it to me...

2 detailed leaflets, one in the legalese speak of the actual treaty and the other a breakdown by the Referendum Commission, were delivered to your door. This wasn't enough? Instead you ask a few laypeople with no more important role than cross out names on a register for advice, despite their express instructions not to influence people in any way? And then, rebuffed, you choose one side over the other, as if the people at the desk were the Yes side, and a personal dislike swayed you more than threats of joblessness or EU imperialism? From previous arguments, you don't always come across as the most lucid of thinkers, but this was certainly foggy thinking.

[Mr A]

One thing that was remarkable to me was the reasons people were giving for voting No. The No campaign was very effective in scaremongering. My wife was telling me that everyone in her workplace said they were voting no because otherwise their sons would end up conscripted into a European army FFS!

People seem to have voted no for an incredible variety of reasons, many of which were completely bogus in my opinion.

[Sheridan]

I love early morning coverage of elections and referenda on RTÉ. Everyone jumps on the bandwagon of ~1% complete tallies only to go furiously into reverse at the slightest indication that they might have been wrong.

I'd love to know who defined what were middle class and working class areas.

[pete]

Open question to all:

* What persuaded you to vote Yes/No ?

Personally I was really not influenced by any of the campaigners. In the early days Libertas made a lot of nose until I read up who they were, then discounted everything they said. Was thinking of a protest No vote why Bertie was still there but don't know if you have gone through with. Decided yes based on my own reading.

[Lionel Ritchie]

I love early morning coverage of elections and referenda on RTÉ. Everyone jumps on the bandwagon of ~1% complete tallies only to go furiously into reverse at the slightest indication that they might have been wrong.



Listen in Sheridan. They're now giving acurate tallies from right across the country with cross section of urban, rural, socio-economic samples and they are quite consistently No. Where Yes is in front it is barely in front and is proving to be very much the exception rather than the rule. There'll be no backpeddling on RTE today. It's becoming quite bankable.




I'd love to know who defined what were middle class and working class areas. I'm sure they take into account a number of factors including past Dail returns, property valuations and whether or not they get shiney new buses every twenty minutes or clapped out ones that may or may not turn up hourly. :cool:

[jebus]

I was influenced by my own reading on the Treaty (in favour of a common defence and environment policy), and my dislike/mistrust of Libertas, Sinn Fein and the Catholic Church

[jebus]

whether or not they get shiney new buses every twenty minutes or clapped out ones that may or may not turn up hourly. :cool:

By that criteria I live in Favala section of Dublin so :)

[GavinZac]

By that criteria I live in Favala section of Dublin so :)

Fassaugh Avenue?

[pete]

I love early morning coverage of elections and referenda on RTÉ. Everyone jumps on the bandwagon of ~1% complete tallies only to go furiously into reverse at the slightest indication that they might have been wrong.

I'd love to know who defined what were middle class and working class areas.

Newstalk read out a few results/tallies from individual boxes to give indication that working class areas have large No vote & middle class scraping Yes votes. The only areas I remember they mentioned were Cherry Orchard & Terenure

[Sheridan]

I live in a working class area which is cheek by jowl with a middle class (i.e., high-income, which is what I suspect RTÉ mean) area with which it shares polling stations and an electoral ward, I imagine the same holds for many urban districts.

[Macy]

One thing that was remarkable to me was the reasons people were giving for voting No. The No campaign was very effective in scaremongering. My wife was telling me that everyone in her workplace said they were voting no because otherwise their sons would end up conscripted into a European army FFS!
And people voted yes because they were convinced by the yes side we'd be chucked out of the EU, and that the sky would fall in. The majority of the electorate are thick - general election results show this.


* What persuaded you to vote Yes/No ?
I was leaning no, but was convinced by the failure of the Government not to give committments on workers rights, which would've balanced the free market elements. Several of the largest unions came out on this issue, including the one in which I'm an activist. For SIPTU to fail to back the Government in itself enough to convince me it had to be bad for the worker.

I also took into account the promises from the yes side pre Nice 2 in which they said that wages wouldn't be eroded by businesses exploiting immigrants. I wasn't going to fall for it again when they say that ordinary workers have nothing to fear from what is such a pro business treaty. We're behind even the Thatcherite UK in terms of workers rights, never mind the rest of Europe, on whose legislation this treaty was based.

I would generally pro europe, and would probably have voted yes it had had the social aspects that the likes of Youth Defence said it had. Unfortunately it was too much a business charter on the elements that would really effect us.

[noby]

The coin landed on heads.

I couldn't say specifically, just after listening to a lot of debates on the subject a decision was kind of formed in my mind.

[Calcio Jack]

2 detailed leaflets, one in the legalese speak of the actual treaty and the other a breakdown by the Referendum Commission, were delivered to your door. This wasn't enough? Instead you ask a few laypeople with no more important role than cross out names on a register for advice, despite their express instructions not to influence people in any way? And then, rebuffed, you choose one side over the other, as if the people at the desk were the Yes side, and a personal dislike swayed you more than threats of joblessness or EU imperialism? From previous arguments, you don't always come across as the most lucid of thinkers, but this was certainly foggy thinking.


My point is that I was entitled to be given a copy of the Treaty at the polling station by the people working there ( I had that confirmed by the Dept of Enviro today), and they as State employess either weren't trained properly or weren't bothered. In essence for me that summed up the whole lazyness/ambiguity taken by the State in relation to this.

Thus for me it was the 'clincher' in terms of deciding, had nothing to do with being angry, but acted as the tipping point for what was for me a most difficult decision, as I know well that the Treaty isn't perfect but offers as many positives as negatives.

As an aside does anyone think that wording on the ballot paper might of been slightly confusing and some who wanted the treaty accepted might of voted 'no' thinking that would achieve a 'yes' ?

If it turns out to be a 'no' as seems likely based on early tallies, then maybe next time ( I firmly belive we'll be asked to vote again) hopefully the Govt and yes camp will make a real effort at explaining the positives rather than issuing threats etc.

[jebus]

I wonder will MyPost come on and criticise Calcio for his method of choosing considering his condemnation of Kingdom Hoop's method yesterday?

[dublinred]

I voted No and betted on No , the french guy telling us how to vote when his own people were not given the choice was the turning point for me and a lot of voters.

[jebus]

Fassaugh Avenue?

Not a bad guess as I'm on the same bus route and pass through there everyday :)

[pete]

With question above I was interested to know if any campaigners had an impact one way or the other.

If this is a No vote will be a very bad start for Brian Cowan. He won't have the option of Lisbon 2 either.

Who takes those jobs in the voting centres? I presume mainly teachers or just nosy people? ;)

[Calcio Jack]

With question above I was interested to know if any campaigners had an impact one way or the other.

If this is a No vote will be a very bad start for Brian Cowan. He won't have the option of Lisbon 2 either.

Who takes those jobs in the voting centres? I presume mainly teachers or just nosy people? ;)

If it's a 'no' my money is on there being another vote.. as for who takes the jobs...from my experience brain dead lazy people :D

[Lionel Ritchie]

Open question to all:

* What persuaded you to vote Yes/No ?
My three year old son. Still undecided at 8.00pm last night I asked him, as he changed into his jimjams, what he reckoned ...Tá or Nil? He said Tá.

I said "Are you sure? ...coz it'll be your ass in a slit trench in the heathen East not mine". He said Tá ...his eyes and mind alight with wonder and the screams of Johnny Turk wriggling on the end of his bayonette.

[GavinZac]

My point is that I was entitled to be given a copy of the Treaty at the polling station by the people working there ( I had that confirmed by the Dept of Enviro today), and they as State employess either weren't trained properly or weren't bothered. In essence for me that summed up the whole lazyness/ambiguity taken by the State in relation to this. State employees? Its random people off the street. They turn up every few years because they know someone and its an easy €400.


As an aside does anyone think that wording on the ballot paper might of been slightly confusing and some who wanted the treaty accepted might of voted 'no' thinking that would achieve a 'yes' ?There was a No box and a Yes box. People would have been going in to vote No or Yes. Tick as appropriate. It took me all of 30 seconds, and that included moving to the next booth as the pencil had broken.


If it turns out to be a 'no' as seems likely based on early tallies, then maybe next time ( I firmly belive we'll be asked to vote again) hopefully the Govt and yes camp will make a real effort at explaining the positives rather than issuing threats etc.Perhaps either side will, or perhaps people will not be swayed by ridiculous claims on posters (some of the Yes ones weren't inculpable of hysteria either) and will actually educate themselves before voting. Instead we have a situation where in conversation last night my parents told me they'd voted No because of fuel prices.

[pete]

If it's a 'no' my money is on there being another vote.. as for who takes the jobs...from my experience brain dead lazy people :D

I only mentioned as I did not care for old wan telling me her maiden name was the same as my surname. Serious job demarcation too - one person to read the card & one to operate the pen & ruler. :p

[OneRedArmy]

Yes side is coming back strongly.

Anyone know do they open boxes in chronological order?

Reports of a last minute surge before polling closed last night should favour the yes side.

[OneRedArmy]

If it's a 'no' my money is on there being another vote.. Bearing in mind the French have said as recently as last night that its dead in the water if there's a 'no' vote all indications point otherwise.

[jebus]

RTE reports suggest that the Yes vote is gaining on No, **has mental pictures of Lionel Ritchie as the punter in Paddy Powers tearing up his 'sure thing' ticket and stomping on it before marching out to the sounds of Germans doing a jig** :)

[GavinZac]

RTE reports suggest that the Yes vote is gaining on No, **has mental pictures of Lionel Ritchie as the punter in Paddy Powers tearing up his 'sure thing' ticket and stomping on it before marching out to the sounds of Germans doing a jig** :)

Jig? I suppose its better than the goose-stepping they'll be doing on the way to the Belgian border if the Nays have it.

[GavinZac]

Not a bad guess as I'm on the same bus route and pass through there everyday :)

Beyond Faussaugh Avenue? Christ, there be dragons!

[Calcio Jack]

State employees? Its random people off the street. They turn up every few years because they know someone and its an easy €400.

What I meant in that on the day they are working in the polling station they are State employees...what they do the rest of the time is not relevant.



Perhaps either side will, or perhaps people will not be swayed by ridiculous claims on posters (some of the Yes ones weren't inculpable of hysteria either) and will actually educate themselves before voting. Instead we have a situation where in conversation last night my parents told me they'd voted No because of fuel prices.

I've no doubt that a significent part of the 'no' was driven by the fact that many people are really p/off by the way the economy has turned during the last 12 monts and especially by the manner in which FF have started to renage on election promises... thus Cowen is been given a 'good kicking' by many people...not a logical way to vote but a very human way...but that's what you get when you let the 'little people' vote...a Totalatarian approach IMO might be worth considering for the good of the people.

[Sheridan]

Lucinda Creighton on RTE just basically said working class voters rejected the treaty because they were stupid racists and middle class voters didn't because they more astute.