Lisbon Treaty

[BohsPartisan]

Moreso than, for example, you. Apart from corruption, there's the trust that you actually have a clue what you're doing, which I'd imagine you wouldn't convince many of, or you'd have joined the cash cow yourself.


You really haven't a clue if you think our politicians are experts in any given field. I see the internal workings of government on a daily basis and believe me, they don't know a thing. Every word you hear coming out of a politicians mouth in an official capacity is written by a civil servant, more so a team of civil servants.

How can you say they aren't career politicians? They get lucrative salaries, great perks, set up for life. All they have to do is not rock the boat for the rich and powerful and they're quids in. Same goes for most Union bureaucrats.

[seanfhear]

You really haven't a clue if you think our politicians are experts in any given field. I see the internal workings of government on a daily basis and believe me, they don't know a thing. Every word you hear coming out of a politicians mouth in an official capacity is written by a civil servant, more so a team of civil servants.

How can you say they aren't career politicians? They get lucrative salaries, great perks, set up for life. All they have to do is not rock the boat for the rich and powerful and they're quids in. Same goes for most Union bureaucrats.
The rest of us would be in fantasy land if we could claim the pensions that these politicians get after a few years of being nodding donkeys in leinster house

[GavinZac]

The rest of us would be in fantasy land if we could claim the pensions that these politicians get after a few years of being nodding donkeys in leinster house
Why not get yourself elected?

[seanfhear]

Why not get yourself elected?
maybe you could help me as you seem to be very in tune with the trough munchers.I will make it worth your while and will work very hard on my trough munching tecknique

[GavinZac]

maybe you could help me as you seem to be very in tune with the trough munchers.I will make it worth your while and will work very hard on my trough munching tecknique
Did you read any other part of Animal Farm, or did you just see through munchers on a pamphlet and thought it had a nice ring to it?

[BohsPartisan]

Did you read any other part of Animal Farm, or did you just see through munchers on a pamphlet and thought it had a nice ring to it?

For a minute I thought he was looking for your help cornering the Lesbian vote! ;)

[GavinZac]

For a minute I thought he was looking for your help cornering the Lesbian vote! ;)

depends what version of Animal Farm he had, I suppose :D

[seanfhear]

Did you read any other part of Animal Farm, or did you just see through munchers on a pamphlet and thought it had a nice ring to it?
no came up with that myself[didnt spot the lesbian angle thanks bohspartisan]
never read animal farm is that the one where its said that some are more equal than others
that would suit gavinzac

[mypost]

You've never backed a winning politician in your life, and you like it that way. You see them, as someone ludicrously called them earlier, as "the political class".

Do I?? :o

I won't even bother replying to the rest of your arrogant, condescending nonsense. You've been warned enough times on this thread re: your attitude, I'll let the director examine it instead.

Your side lost the argument, end of story.

[GavinZac]

no came up with that myself[didnt spot the lesbian angle thanks bohspartisan]
never read animal farm is that the one where its said that some are more equal than others
that would suit gavinzac

Some are more equal than others? Wasn't that the point of the No campaign? No to equal voting powers for each EU citizen?

[SMorgan]

I'm not exactly weeping into my coffee that Lisbon was rejected, but I'm somewhat more comfortable about having voted Yes and not deserving the backslaps of these clowns.

http://www.ukip.org/ukip/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=670&Itemid=57

http://www.bnp.org.uk/2008/06/ireland-rejects-the-lisbon-treaty/

http://www.frontnational.com/

Yes LR there are some that wanted a No vote that you would not feel particularly at ease with. But the people that are moaning about the democratic decision that Ireland made point to the support the No vote received from the far left and the far right. What they appear totally incapable of appreciating is that most people within these extreme political views also rejected the Treaty in big numbers. The difficulty the Yes side have in accepting democracy is very disappointing. The likes of Gay Mitchel and Pat Rabbitte have made absolute fools of themselves over the last few days.

As I said before, Cowen should go to Brussels and accept no lectures from the likes of French who rejected the European Constitution and got their way in the form of the Lisbon Treaty. After all did the Yes side not tell us that the Lisbon Treaty was Plan B after the French and the Dutch rejected Plan A. Was there any talk of a two tier Europe when France and Holland fell foul of Brussels? Not a bit of it.

[GavinZac]

Do I?? :o

I won't even bother replying to the rest of your arrogant, condescending nonsense.
Of course you won't. You never reply to anything really, do you? I'd go back through the thread to pull up every question I've asked you that you avoided but my rice is nearly done. Maybe later.

[seanfhear]

Some are more equal than others? Wasn't that the point of the No campaign? No to equal voting powers for each EU citizen?
my point was that you believe that some irish citizens not as fortunate as yourself do not deserve any protection from a sovereign irish goverment that they finance with their taxes
you have benifited from a free education from the irish state.How would you feel if further down the line the eu decided that this was too expensive and students had to pay as they already do in england
The people have spoken and you lost.Are you alex ferguson and expect to keep playing until you win

[GavinZac]

my point was that you believe that some irish citizens not as fortunate as yourself do not deserve any protection from a sovereign irish goverment that they finance with their taxesProtection from what? Not as fortunate as myself? I'm unemployed. What does that matter to my opinions? And what has it got to do with the Lisbon Treaty, or presumably your anti-EU views in general?

you have benifited from a free education from the irish state.How would you feel if further down the line the eu decided that this was too expensive and students had to pay as they already do in englandWhy/How would the EU force irish students to pay irish universities for education? At the moment, they're forcing the irish government to increase our numbers of masters graduates in the most direct way - by paying for it. Also, again, what has it to do with the Lisbon Treaty?

The people have spoken and you lost.Are you alex ferguson and expect to keep playing until you winWe've all lost, whether we're all aware of it or not is another story.

[seanfhear]

Not as fortunate as myself? I'm unemployed. What does that matter to my opinions? And what has it got to do with the Lisbon Treaty, or presumably your anti-EU views in general?
Why/How would the EU force irish students to pay irish universities for education? At the moment, they're forcing the irish government to increase our numbers of masters graduates in the most direct way - by paying for it. Also, again, what has it to do with the Lisbon Treaty?
We've all lost, whether we're all aware of it or not is another story.
dont worry the sky is not going to collapse tomorrow
an organisation that cannot cope with a minor setback must be very insecure.The eu can and will continue hopefully not ignoring the democratic wishes of the irish people.I voted no because I would not buy a pig in a poke.It is hard to believe that politicians expect us to vote for something that they admit to not reading and therefore not understanding.It really smacks of Ireland of the fifties/sixties/seventys when the parish priest told people what to do and think.substitute the political and business establishment for the priests with the we know best attitude.The correctness of the vote has been proven by the attitude of the losers.Many of them want to ignore the vote and carry on.If we are not careful they will stage a coup dtat and ram this treaty down our throats

[BohsPartisan]

We've all lost, whether we're all aware of it or not is another story.

:rolleyes: Do you never give up? We've not "all lost". Also this idea that somehow the EU was responsible for our economic success is nonsense. The amount of people/entities who claim that particular accolade gets longer with every election/referendum/tribunal/partnership deal/warplane in shannon. For the first twenty odd years of our EU membership we were a basket case economically. Our success was due to a variety of factors, not least an educated workforce and the usual international economic factors that we are not immune to. What the EEC/EC/EU did though was destroy Irish agriculture by paying farmers not to produce goods while the very same goods were flow in from Spain, Israel, Kenya, Brazil, Cyprus to the benefit of the people negotiating trade deals. (And of course the detriment of the environment).

Being Anti-EU is a perfectly valid position and need not be a nationalist one. As I said I'm in favour of some kind of federal europe but the EU is overbearingly centralist. A truely Federal Europe with equal rights for every citizen would have been pushed even further away by Post-Lisbon Europe. We will only have that desirable version of Europe by taking the means of production and distribution out of the hands of a tiny few Billionaires and Millionaires and democratising the economy.

[GavinZac]

I voted no because I would not buy a pig in a poke.It is hard to believe that politicians expect us to vote for something that they admit to not reading and therefore not understanding.It really smacks of Ireland of the fifties/sixties/seventys when the parish priest told people what to do and think.substitute the political and business establishment for the priests with the we know best attitude.
So you didn't actually vote on the issues in the treaty, you voted with your attitude to "the establishment"?

[GavinZac]

this idea that somehow the EU was responsible for our economic success is nonsense. The amount of people/entities who claim that particular accolade gets longer with every election/referendum/tribunal/partnership deal/warplane in shannon.
I don't know. I have no idea how to respond to this rubbish, that a child could see is simply either petulance or ****-stirring. The EU dragged us out of third world subsistence. I'm going off to do something fun, or at very least something less mind-numbingly pointless.

[seanfhear]

I don't know. I have no idea how to respond to this rubbish, that a child could see is simply either petulance or ****-stirring. The EU dragged us out of third world subsistence. I'm going off to do something fun, or at very least something less mind-numbingly pointless.
please leave the ball behind so that we can still play

[BohsPartisan]

I don't know. I have no idea how to respond to this rubbish, that a child could see is simply either petulance or ****-stirring. The EU dragged us out of third world subsistence. I'm going off to do something fun, or at very least something less mind-numbingly pointless.


Really that is a childishly simplistic reading of the situation with absolutely no regard for economics. As I said there were many factors to The Celtic Tiger. While there was EU aid to Ireland particularly in the area of infrastructure the main factors included Taxation policy, Industrial policy as well as our position geographically and the fact we speak English. Irish workers have played a significant part in the process offering high skills in certain areas and quietly acquiescing to work longer hours than workers in many European countries. There are whole books on the causes of the Celtic Tiger yet you call me childish for suggesting that there were many factors at play and insist it was all the EU's doing! :rolleyes:

[pete]

Reading of the comments from the No side I can't help feel opinions would be different if Brussels was hanging us out more cash then they are now. I get the impression some people feel we don't need the EU cash any more. Issues such as democratic deficit were not widespread problem when we were poor.

I find the democratic debate the funniest. Some say the EU is for all 500m citizens but does this mean 1 vote per person? Some don't like that we don't get to vote on EU President but again does this mean 1 person 1 vote? Is it one person one vote or one country one vote?

:confused:

[BohsPartisan]

I find the democratic debate the funniest. Some say the EU is for all 500m citizens but does this mean 1 vote per person? Some don't like that we don't get to vote on EU President but again does this mean 1 person 1 vote? Is it one person one vote or one country one vote?

:confused:

Why is it funny? I actually don't see what you are getting at here. I for one made it perfectly clear that I am against the EU's undemocratic centralism and I am against the fact that other countries didn't get to vote on the treaty. I can not speak for everyone here but my idea of democracy is radically different from what the EU promotes as democracy.

[GavinZac]

Why is it funny? I actually don't see what you are getting at here. I for one made it perfectly clear that I am against the EU's undemocratic centralism and I am against the fact that other countries didn't get to vote on the treaty. I can not speak for everyone here but my idea of democracy is radically different from what the EU promotes as democracy.

Do you or do you not believe in one man, one vote?

Following that, do you or do you not think a cabinet of 27 is too much?

Do you think a fair situation is to instead rotate equally the allocation of the 20 among different states so that every state is represented at least 2/3s of the time, whilst making provisions that no 3 large countries can form a majority or quorum?

[Macy]

I've read the posts since Friday, so I'll just give a generalised response...

GavinZac and others - people voted no on a wide range of issues, but I think the main ones that could be dealt with would be workers rights. This was the only reason that some of the largest trade unions in the country couldn't and didn't recommend a yes vote. There were also the liberalising of the public service provision, for which we could get an explicit opt out. Both these areas were focussed on by the shinners, as well as the socialists. Probably were issues enough to push the No side over the line.

imo the Yes side are focussing on the lunatic fringe elements of the no side to cover their own asses. They ran an appalling campaign from start to finish. They didn't get the message out about losing a commissioner from Nice until the last few days, and how this was arguably a good deal. (They probably left it too late to avoid the accusations of lying in Nice though, and being reminded what our then commissioner said).

In fact they didn't or couldn't sell any positives from the treaty, and had to focus on generalisations against specific attacks. Mary Lou McDonald, Joe Higgins, Declan Ganley were able to raise specific problems that the Government couldn't always refute convincingly, and they certainly couldn't respond with specific benefits.

However, when it comes down to it the Yes side failed for two main reasons.
1. The people don't trust politicians. And why would they considering the number of high profile politicians that have trailed in and out of tribunals, including the man that supposedly negotiated this treaty. Why would the people trust a man who can't give a straight answer under oath, or the politicians (especially Cowen) who stood steadfast behind him while all this was going on, or the opposition who failed to properly go after him?
2. They left the campaign too late. The Yes side actually closed the gap in the last week of the campaign. If FF had focused on this treaty rather than Aherns departure and then Cowen's election then I've no doubt it would've been a yes vote. If you then take into account that basically since the last election the whole focus of the media has been on Ahearns changing stories in the Tribunals, the message wasn't getting out there. I know Labour were campaigning on it since last year, I believe FG were too - what exactly were the Government doing?

Essentially the Yes side should stop focusing on generalised attacks on the No side, when it was their lack of action which actually resulted in the No vote. I believe it was the right result, without the movement on workers rights, but I've no doubt a full on FF machine would've got it through - any machine that can keep getting them elected with their record has to be good.

[pete]

However, when it comes down to it the Yes side failed for two main reasons.
1. The people don't trust politicians. And why would they considering the number of high profile politicians that have trailed in and out of tribunals, including the man that supposedly negotiated this treaty. Why would the people trust a man who can't give a straight answer under oath, or the politicians (especially Cowen) who stood steadfast behind him while all this was going on, or the opposition who failed to properly go after him?
.

I agree with that assessment & probably does show up the stupidity of the Irish electorate. Everyone moans about FF & seems will vote against them in EU or local elections but at each General Election they keep voting them back in. Is there evidence it is different this time?

[Billsthoughts]

Why is it funny? I actually don't see what you are getting at here. I for one made it perfectly clear that I am against the EU's undemocratic centralism and I am against the fact that other countries didn't get to vote on the treaty. I can not speak for everyone here but my idea of democracy is radically different from what the EU promotes as democracy.

This is untrue and a lie. All countries voted in their general elections and all these publically elected politicians are the ones that negotiated the treaty and are the ones that will no doubt ratify. That is the way democracy works. In our country we had the country vote and make a decision on something the vast majority had never read and didnt understand. If that is democracy as you imagine it - a collective expression of our ignorance - well God help us. Roughly 25 per cent of the people who were eligible to vote in this country rejected the treaty. Hardly a massive message of unhappiness with Europe.

[seanfhear]

This is untrue and a lie. All countries voted in their general elections and all these publically elected politicians are the ones that negotiated the treaty and are the ones that will no doubt ratify. That is the way democracy works. In our country we had the country vote and make a decision on something the vast majority had never read and didnt understand. If that is democracy as you imagine it - a collective expression of our ignorance - well God help us. Roughly 25 per cent of the people who were eligible to vote in this country rejected the treaty. Hardly a massive message of unhappiness with Europe.
well our brave political leaders should call a general election with the anti treaty parties as the opposition
By their own admission they do not know what to do.You would think that after nice one they would at least have considered the possibility of a no vote.They are failures and should step aside to let someone that has thought about the opportunities this vote brings take over

[Billsthoughts]

well our brave political leaders should call a general election with the anti treaty parties........

What opportunities? If they called a general election tomoro it would bring roughly the same result as the last 5 or 6. Possibly with the greens the only ones losing out :rolleyes: Anti Treaty parties? Who is that Sinn Fein? They havent a hope of becoming a major player in this country

[Macy]

All countries voted in their general elections and all these publically elected politicians are the ones that negotiated the treaty and are the ones that will no doubt ratify. That is the way democracy works.
Some of the countries Governments were elected on the basis they'd hold referenda, and then haven't. And lest we forget, the constitution was watered down to this treaty just so it wouldn't have to go back before the dutch or french.


In our country we had the country vote and make a decision on something the vast majority had never read and didnt understand. If that is democracy as you imagine it - a collective expression of our ignorance - well God help us.
That's a problem of the Government not explaining it, but we could also have a referendum on whether we should have future referendums on EU Treaties. Good luck to the Yes side on that one....


Roughly 25 per cent of the people who were eligible to vote in this country rejected the treaty. Hardly a massive message of unhappiness with Europe.
If we were basing mandates on the actual percentage of population that voted we'd always have grand coalitions. Governments are formed on under 50% of those that do actually vote!

[seanfhear]

What opportunities? If they called a general election tomoro it would bring roughly the same result as the last 5 or 6. Possibly with the greens the only ones losing out :rolleyes: Anti Treaty parties? Who is that Sinn Fein? They havent a hope of becoming a major player in this country
dont write off sinn fein as easily as that.They are a very resilent party.They need some high profile leaders in the south and for the other political parties to make stupid mistakes and the economic downturn wont hurt opposition parties either

[Billsthoughts]

Some of the countries Governments were elected on the basis they'd hold referenda, and then haven't. And lest we forget, the constitution was watered down to this treaty just so it wouldn't have to go back before the dutch or french.
I doubt ANY party was elected on that issue alone or wether that was a major issue in any general election. Our own being a prime example.



That's a problem of the Government not explaining it, but we could also have a referendum on whether we should have future referendums on EU Treaties. Good luck to the Yes side on that one....
.
Are you serious? If you are going to vote on something make sure you familiarise yourself with it. We arent children. Personally I dont think we should be having referendums on things like that.



If we were basing mandates on the actual percentage of population that voted we'd always have grand coalitions. Governments are formed on under 50% of those that do actually vote!

Agreed but the way this has been spun by the No campaign is that this is a massive vote of dissatisfaction with Europe. I dont think that is the case at all. How many TDs did we elect that were No camp as opposed to the Yes camp? You can count them on one hand.

[Billsthoughts]

dont write off sinn fein as easily as that.They are a very resilent party.They need some high profile leaders in the south and for the other political parties to make stupid mistakes and the economic downturn wont hurt opposition parties either

Am not writing them off. They have a constituency and they are never going to have mass appeal.

[jebus]

Some of the countries Governments were elected on the basis they'd hold referenda, and then haven't. And lest we forget, the constitution was watered down to this treaty just so it wouldn't have to go back before the dutch or french

Then I'd assume the people of these countries would kick the lying parties out of government in their next national elections. That's the way democracy works, or should work, not which side of a debate can get the most uninformed of us to side with them

[Macy]

Are you serious? If you are going to vote on something make sure you familiarise yourself with it. We arent children. Personally I dont think we should be having referendums on things like that.
I agree to a degree, however Cowen coming out saying he hadn't bothered reading it, and the referendum commission being totally stumped at that press conference were surely factors? If they're going to present a unnecessarily complex treaty before us, they have a responsibility to explain it properly. They didn't, and instead focussed on generalisations - and then the people based on not trusting them, not being able to understand it, or from arguments from the no side (some of which were lies, some of which were valid), or a combination. That is perfectly valid imo.


Agreed but the way this has been spun by the No campaign is that this is a massive vote of dissatisfaction with Europe. I dont think that is the case at all. How many TDs did we elect that were No camp as opposed to the Yes camp? You can count them on one hand.
It wasn't the single issue that we voted on, same as you said yourself earlier. If there was a referendum on co-location the Government would be defeated too, but FF were still the largest party despite this (and other issues that people don't agree with).

[Billsthoughts]

I agree to a degree, however Cowen coming out saying he hadn't bothered reading it, and the referendum commission being totally stumped at that press conference were surely factors? If they're going to present a unnecessarily complex treaty before us, they have a responsibility to explain it properly. They didn't, and instead focussed on generalisations - and then the people based on not trusting them, not being able to understand it, or from arguments from the no side (some of which were lies, some of which were valid), or a combination. That is perfectly valid imo.


I think your arguing that in order to get a yes vote the governemtn should have explained/sold it better. Dont think anyone would disagree with that. Im arguing people shouldnt be voting unless they knew what they were voting on. i.e. making an informed decision. I didnt vote myself as hand on heart I didnt know one way or the other.

[OneRedArmy]

I think the rest of Europe has played a blinder over the weekend by calling our bluff.

Regardless of the rights and wrongs of it, this mess is our problem, not Europe's. We have been reminded of our insignificance by our larger European colleagues and Libertas, Sinn Fein etc. core argument that a No vote would enable Ireland to "negotiate a better deal" has been exposed as an arrogant, self-centred, self-important pipedream. We were so consumed by our own self-importance with comments like "Ireland being at the centre of Europe" thrown around like confetti. Its almost like the Celtic Tiger made us invincible and by God did we drink the Cool Aid.

The only hope for Ireland is the Brits appeared to be out of step with France and Germany when they said they couldn't see Lisbon proceeding without Ireland. Unless another EU member of substantive size kicks up a fuss, it is likely the other 26 with ratify a slightly modified Lisbon which applies only to the 26 and we will be left on the outside.

A sobering lesson and a right kick in the hole. Given the hopeless campaign run by the Yes side we deserve what we got.

[Macy]

I think the rest of Europe has played a blinder over the weekend by calling our bluff.
Or proved the No sides point about committments given. Afterall, they're not respecting the veto on Lisbon, why would we take it they'd respect the veto of smaller nation in other areas?

[BohsPartisan]

Do you or do you not believe in one man, one vote?

Following that, do you or do you not think a cabinet of 27 is too much?


I believe in one person one vote but not in the way you are trying to get me to say I do. See the Europe I believe in doesn't have every little decision being made by the central body so its not a problem. If a cabinet of 27 isn't too big for Ireland why would it be too big for Europe?

[BohsPartisan]

The only hope for Ireland is the Brits appeared to be out of step with France and Germany when they said they couldn't see Lisbon proceeding without Ireland. Unless another EU member of substantive size kicks up a fuss, it is likely the other 26 with ratify a slightly modified Lisbon which applies only to the 26 and we will be left on the outside.


They can't and won't do that (or if they do then we're better off out of that type of arrangement). They're just trying to scare people (looks like its working). At this time they don't even know what they are doing.

[SMorgan]

I think the rest of Europe has played a blinder over the weekend by calling our bluff.

Regardless of the rights and wrongs of it, this mess is our problem, not Europe's.

Don't you believe that for one minute.

This is a EU problem and they are going have to address it and address it a way that accomodates Ireland. All this talk about Cowen will have to bring forward a soluation is showboating and drumming of the chest. The Czech Republic thinks Christmas has come early with the No vote, the No vote has Gordon Brown not knowing which way to turn and under considerable pressure. Its also likely than other small nations will not be happy to dance to the French and German ture. I've no doubt that Cowen and Martin will expect the EU to accomodate Ireland in the exact same way that France and the Netherlands were accomodated in 2005. After all did the Yes side not admit that the Lisbon Treaty was Plan B?

You'd understand Germany's frustration in all this. But the French position is laughable. This is a nation that rejected the last Treaty and had it redrafted in order to avoid having to put it to a referendum in their country.

Also, during the debate there was much discussion on the power of a veto. There is meant to be a veto in relation to the implimentation of the Lisbon Treaty. If that is side-stepped in anyway then the Irish people (No side) would have got it spot on. Why should a veto in relation to corporation tax be anymore secure?

[jebus]

This is a EU problem and they are going have to address it and address it a way that accomodates Ireland.

The arrogance and greed of Ireland summed up in one easy sentence

[OneRedArmy]

Or proved the No sides point about committments given. Afterall, they're not respecting the veto on Lisbon, why would we take it they'd respect the veto of smaller nation in other areas?The right to use a veto shouldn't be confused with the consequences of using it.

I've no problem with most of the posts on here from an idealogical perspective, but unfortunately in terms of realpolitik the actuality is far different.

Also, I'm concerned that I'm agreeing with Jebus on a repeated basis.......!

[BohsPartisan]

The arrogance and greed of Ireland summed up in one easy sentence

Bollards! Who is being arrogant now? Its the EU heads who are saying yes, lets disregard Ireland's people and forge ahead with ratification even though our own laws say we can't!

They are creating the problem by refusing to do what should be done - I.E. scrap the treaty. If all states don't ratify its supposed to be out - 27 or nothing! This is real toys out of the pram stuff on their part.

[pete]

I believe a Referendum may be required when Croatia joins in a few years so I expect many of the necessary changes (for example a decision has to be made on EU Commissioners) to re-emerge in that Treaty.

The EU are correct as it is Irelands problem. The simple fact is that it looks like the other 26 countries will ratify the Treaty (it does not matter that this done in Parliaments as has been the same for all EU Treatys) with Ireland rejecting. When France & Holland rejected the EU Constitution I presume their leaders told the EU what changes to make so they would pass it. The EU will assume Ireland did not reject all of the Lisbon Treaty so will ask Cowan/Martin why it was rejected & what changes required or sections to remove.

It must be very embarrassing for Cowan/Martin to go to the EU & give them excuses such as abortion, euthanasia & other fears as they will ask why unable to inform the voters why none of those included in the Treaty.

[BohsPartisan]

It must be very embarrassing for Cowan/Martin to go to the EU & give them excuses such as abortion, euthanasia & other fears as they will ask why unable to inform the voters why none of those included in the Treaty.

Well they'd be lying if they gave those reasons Pete.

http://www.ireland.com/focus/thelisbontreaty/analysis/polls/no.jpg

[jebus]

Bollards! Who is being arrogant now? Its the EU heads who are saying yes, lets disregard Ireland's people and forge ahead with ratification even though our own laws say we can't!

Yes that is arrogant on their part and I don't agree with it now that I've had the weekend to see where the EU wants to go with this. That still doesn't make the Irish asking 'what's in it for me', from an organisation that has given them a lot, any less arrogant and greedy though does it? If the Treaty had been rejected by informed people saying, 'this isn't good enough, we want clarification on certain areas', then that would be all good, as it stands now, with Sinn Fein and Libertas handing over a list of demands, it looks like we are all greedy pigs and in a real world we won't be getting any favours from Brussels for quite some time now

[BohsPartisan]

Yes that is arrogant on their part and I don't agree with it now that I've had the weekend to see where the EU wants to go with this. That still doesn't make the Irish asking 'what's in it for me',
The majority of people didn't vote on a whats in it for me basis though. In fact if anything you could say it was the Yes side trying to bribe people with Candy before they replaced it with threats of burned toast and black tea.

[jebus]

The majority of people didn't vote on a whats in it for me basis though. In fact if anything you could say it was the Yes side trying to bribe people with Candy before they replaced it with threats of burned toast and black tea.

Then what did they vote on? If it wasn't the scare tactics of abortion, wasn't that they didn't know what it was about, and wasn't about about our tax rates and commisioner then what was it about? Because some French guy told them to?

The reason it's going to be so hard to placate the people who voted No is because no one seems quite sure what they voted against (pie chart speculation aside). I'd wager that it's going to be hard to pin down why they voted No because quite a lot of them wouldn't be able to tell you themselves. It's a ridiculous situation to be in, having a bunch of no hopers from Sinn Fein and a shady group like Libertas taking advantage and trying to hijack this for their own benefit.

Back on the original point, I bet quite a lot of No voters believed Sinn Fein's argument that Ireland could send the Treaty back to Brussels and get even more benefits for ourselves.

[BohsPartisan]

In SF's defence (and its not often I'd do that) I think you are misrepresenting what they had in mind by re-negotiating (which I oppose anyway). I think they thought they could go back and get rid of the parts on militarism, common foreign policy, transfer of powers, etc. This won't happen. Best thing to do is scrap the treaty and the best thing we can do is get active in fighting for a different kind of Europe.

[jebus]

Best thing to do is scrap the treaty and the best thing we can do is get active in fighting for a different kind of Europe.

I agree, and I'll be at that meeting on Wednesday night to see what Joe Higgins has to say on the matter

As for Sinn Fein, well they published in the Times the list of demands and considering they want special concessions made for Ireland in a Treaty that is designed for the continent I would count that as us wanting more benefits from the EU