Lisbon Treaty

[dahamsta]

I think that it's more important that the broad strokes be clearly understood and agreed upon by the citizens.

The fine details are understood by so few people that putting them to referenda does more harm than good.I thought you were talking about plain-englishing the legalese rather than just not plain-englishing the basics. If you do this politicians will take advantage of it. It's what they do.

[pete]

...whilst allowing the people of Ireland to revisit, through referenda,the original constitutional amendment i.e. The simple question of our membership of the EU.

The Lisbon Treaty puts in legal mechanism to leave the EU. Ironically this means that anti-EU people should vote Yes to Lisbon. :D

[Dodge]

I thought you were talking about plain-englishing the legalese rather than just not plain-englishing the basics. If you do this politicians will take advantage of it. It's what they do.

And by politicians, you mean people. None of them are there without votes...

[HomeBrewPlease]

Getting back to the point at hand, we made a decision in the 70s to throw our lot in with Europe. We should let our Government legislate the detail under this as they see fit, whilst allowing the people of Ireland to revisit, through referenda,the original constitutional amendment i.e. The simple question of our membership of the EU.

Why should we? We didnt write a blank cheque for them to do what they want when we joined the EU. I still dont think they should do so.

Its not about being pro-EU or anti-EU. Its about the type of EU we want. If they want to make significant changes to the EU, as with this treaty which is in reality the EU constitution, then we should have a vote in whether we want that or not. In fact, I think each country should hold referenda on such treaties. The EU should be more democratic not less.



There seems to be an argument building that if legislation is too complicated for the average man to understand, it's bad legislation.

I havent heard that argument being made. Who done so? There is an argument though that politicians might make legislation and treaties deliberately complicated in ordeer to deliberately try to confuse people if they want to sneak something through.


Rightly or wrongly, we are way beyond that. Issues like banking and insurance, food safety, competition etc. are all much too specialist for most of the population to understand, yet we entrust people to draft and enact them, knowing full well they impact our daily lives. But why give politicians that power considering many of them may not and dont understand much legislation either. Brian Cowen and Mary Coughlan didnt even read the Treaty the last time so they cant claim to understand the fine detail of it. Why should they have any say over it as opposed to the ordinary person in Ireland or elsewhere in Europe?

[Mr A]

From my point of view:

Rerunning the vote is a bit dodgy, but it did genuinely seem that many people voted on the basis of totally spurious conceptions. I heard quite a few people saying that if this went through that we'd all be conscripted into a European army. There was a lot of scare-mongering going on.. mostly from people who have opposed each and every Euro treaty and their doomsday predictions have never come to pass. Europe in general has been fantastic for this country.

On the treaty itself it seems to me to be some long overdue reform of the way things work. I think the concession we got on retaining a commissioner was actually a backwards step- there's going to be too many and they're strictly barred from favouring their own countries anyway. I have yet to hear any arguments that I found really credible or powerful to make me vote no.

[Sheridan]

From my point of view:

Rerunning the vote is a bit dodgy, but it did genuinely seem that many people voted on the basis of totally spurious conceptions. I heard quite a few people saying that if this went through that we'd all be conscripted into a European army.
Joe Higgins has repeatedly made the point that absolutely no-one he spoke to was under that impression, and that it appears to have entirely a fabrication on behalf of the media. Since the establishment reserves the right to tell us how to vote, it's hardly surprising that they also presume to tell us why we rejected their invitation.

[Dodge]

Joe Higgins has repeatedly made the point that absolutely no-one he spoke to was under that impression, and that it appears to have entirely a fabrication on behalf of the media. Since the establishment reserves the right to tell us how to vote, it's hardly surprising that they also presume to tell us why we rejected their invitation.

I posted the report on a previous page on why people voted no.

Whether or not it was because of conscription, there's no denying that there was a significant campaign based on that

[Sheridan]

From whom?? Certainly not the left opposition, and I don't even remember Agent Ganley making that case. I suspect wild extrapolations are being made on the basis that militarisation and the compulsion to militarise were opposed strongly, and correctly. It's a lot easier to construct a straw man from those issues than actually deal with what people read and rejected in the treaty provisions.

[HomeBrewPlease]

I posted the report on a previous page on why people voted no.

Whether or not it was because of conscription, there's no denying that there was a significant campaign based on that

No there wasnt. The only people spouting about conscription was the government themselves.

[pete]

Spurious No to Lisbon claims.

http://bifsniff.com/wp-content/files/2008/05/lisbon.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3055/2557798734_1baeac8a73.jpg

http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/pic/1/1048.jpg

[OneRedArmy]

Why should we? We didnt write a blank cheque for them to do what they want when we joined the EU. I still dont think they should do so.

Its not about being pro-EU or anti-EU. Its about the type of EU we want. If they want to make significant changes to the EU, as with this treaty which is in reality the EU constitution, then we should have a vote in whether we want that or not. In fact, I think each country should hold referenda on such treaties. The EU should be more democratic not less.Why have a Government then?
No there wasnt. The only people spouting about conscription was the government themselves.Any evidence to back this up?

[HomeBrewPlease]

Why have a Government then? Any evidence to back this up?

Why have a government? To carry out the wishes of its people. But it should be far more inclusive than just voting once every five years, being lied to with pre election promises and then have to wait another five years before you get to say anything else

Government spokespersons regularly stated on tv and radio. Page 5 of this weeks sligo champion sees Micheál Martin state it yet again.

[mypost]

We, the people run the country, and choose politicians to represent us, and ask them to do what's best for the country. The problem is, too many politicians do what's right for their party, and not necessarily for the people. That's not what government is about.

4 of the 5 parties (157 TD's) all support Lisbon. Every single one of them bar the 4 from SF, and a handful of independents. All parties have adopted an irreversible policy for the referendum, regardless what their constituents who elected them think. It gives 157 of them the opportunity to wine and dine at the top table in Brussels, while the electorate deal with the realities of the country on the ground. You know the outcome of the ratification of the treaty in the Dail already, (post referendum) with just 6 Nil votes. There will be a similiar relative size majority in the Seanad, with just SF, and another handful of Independents opposing it. That's not democracy, that's not doing what's best for the country, that's doing what's best for them, and a rigged farce.


On the treaty itself it seems to me to be some long overdue reform of the way things work.

Who says we need reform. The public?? 3 referendums on this have dictated otherwise. No, it's politicians that say the EU needs reform. And more reform, and more reform. Apparantly the Nice Treaty, that "everyone needed" is no use now. :rolleyes: They all want Lisbon. And in another few years, they'll want something else. And they won't have to put up with inconvenient referendums to stand in their way.

Far from the disaster that France said, I was very happy with the Czech Presidency. It was much better than the hyper showboating carried out by the last President. There's no need to be arranging summits and junkets every weekend, that achieve sfa.

The EU electorate don't care. They're happy enough with the current arrangements. Hopefully the Swedish Presidency will be the latest, rather than the last state to hold the rotating Presidency.

More from Bruce Arnold:

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/government-has-abandoned-democracy-to-get-a-yes-vote-1793340.html

[Mr A]

Joe Higgins has repeatedly made the point that absolutely no-one he spoke to was under that impression, and that it appears to have entirely a fabrication on behalf of the media. Since the establishment reserves the right to tell us how to vote, it's hardly surprising that they also presume to tell us why we rejected their invitation.

Well, my personal experience was that a lot of the people I spoke to about it at the time were talking about this.

[superfrank]

We, the people run the country, and choose politicians to represent us, and ask them to do what's best for the country. The problem is, too many politicians do what's right for their party, and not necessarily for the people. That's not what government is about.
By electing these politicians, we give them the power to make decisions for our country. If you're not happy with it, just don't vote them back in.

[Predator]

By electing these politicians, we give them the power to make decisions for our country. If you're not happy with it, just don't vote them back in.

True, but unfortunately that's not how democracy works. The truth is that one person doesn't decide who gets voted in, it's the majority, no? And the majority aren't always right.

[osarusan]

The truth is that one person doesn't decide who gets voted in, it's the majority, no? And the majority aren't always right.
But if they majority are unhappy with the performance of an elected official, or of they feel that official has not been representative of them while in office, they are free to vote the official out at the next opportunity.

The problem is that a certain percent of the Irish electorate will vote for their candidate regardless of the performance of that candidate while in office. Indeed, for a certain percent, the reason they vote for a certain candidate or party has got nothing to do with what the party or candidate stands for or promises.

[mypost]

But if they majority are unhappy with the performance of an elected official, or of they feel that official has not been representative of them while in office, they are free to vote the official out at the next opportunity.

Well, I wasn't happy with FF in 2007, tried to elect another government, and they still got back in.

With Lisbon, it really doesn't matter who you vote for in a GE, as the main 4 parties are all unquestionably pro-European. It's not like the UK. In Ireland, they are elected on national issues, Europe is a separate issue, and must be decided on when the time comes.

[HomeBrewPlease]

Heres the views of some FF TD's

http://www.fiannafail.ie/news/entry/longfords-concerns-addressed-with-robust-lisbon-deal/

http://www.fiannafail.ie/news/entry/meaths-concerns-addressed-with-robust-lisbon-deal/

http://www.fiannafail.ie/news/entry/kildares-concerns-addressed-with-robust-lisbon-deal/

http://www.fiannafail.ie/news/entry/laois-offalys-concerns-addressed-with-robust-lisbon-deal/

http://www.fiannafail.ie/news/entry/louths-concerns-addressed-with-robust-lisbon-deal/

http://www.fiannafail.ie/news/entry/north-county-dublins-concerns-addressed-with-robust-lisbon-deal/

[dahamsta]

Nicely spotted. Obviously FF have taken up cloning as a way of dealing with their electoral woes. A massive clone army of incompetent parrots is on the way. Star Wars eat yer heart out.

[mypost]

Who's up for President? Have you heard of this "strong, powerful" leader before?


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/felipe-gonzalez-takes-on-blair-for-eu-presidency-1728005.html

The above single person (who never faced a ballot box anywhere outside his own country) could be ruling 500 million citizens for up to 5 years from next year.

Any chance of an Irish Candidate? Ever? Eh no, because France doesn't consider us big enough to do it. :rolleyes:

[Dodge]

The above single person (who never faced a ballot box anywhere outside his own country) could be ruling 500 million citizens for up to 5 years from next year.


He'll be ruling us eh?

Personally I'm disgusted that B rian Cowen is ruling me even though he's never faced a vote outisde of Offaly..

[dahamsta]

I've deleted pete's post because he knows damn well what he said isn't true. pete, I'll be doing that to anything I consider trolling from now on, you've been getting away with that kind of crap in CA for far too long now. If you have a problem with it, take it up in Support, not here.

[OneRedArmy]

Who's up for President? Have you heard of this "strong, powerful" leader before?



The above single person (who never faced a ballot box anywhere outside his own country) could be ruling 500 million citizens for up to 5 years from next year.

Any chance of an Irish Candidate? Ever? Eh no, because France doesn't consider us big enough to do it. :rolleyes:So what's the solution then? Do we go backwards or forwards?

Oh and I thought you were happy with Nice?!

Also you do realise if the role was directly elected our small size of electorate would make us even less likely to get people in positions like this.

Mypost, it's impossible to discuss with you until you work out and state what you're for and against.

[micls]

Joe Higgins has repeatedly made the point that absolutely no-one he spoke to was under that impression, and that it appears to have entirely a fabrication on behalf of the media. Since the establishment reserves the right to tell us how to vote, it's hardly surprising that they also presume to tell us why we rejected their invitation.

Wherever the fabrication came from, it was a widely enough held belief. There were a fair few people who I had arguments with about how ridiculous it was.

I also had an 8 year old child come into school scared and upset on the day of the election because their parents had told them that if there was a yes vote they would have to join the army when they were 18......

[HomeBrewPlease]

Wherever the fabrication came from,

Speaking of fabrication's I am just after getting a nice piece of fiction in the door from the Department of Foreign affairs, re-stating the lie that they have secured legal guarantees.

[mypost]

Personally I'm disgusted that B rian Cowen is ruling me even though he's never faced a vote outisde of Offaly..

Brian Cowen got the votes he needed for parliament in a free and fair democratic election. What he's doing there is a separate issue.


So what's the solution then? Do we go backwards or forwards?

Oh and I thought you were happy with Nice?!

We go on as we are, with Nice.


you do realise if the role was directly elected our small size of electorate would make us even less likely to get people in positions like this.

The President of Russia has to be elected to office. The President of the USA has to be elected to office. The President of Ireland also has to be elected to office.

The President of Europe, instead of facing 27 electorates, will have to be rubber-stamped by a majority of just 27 heads of state. He may be nominated unopposed to speak for and represent everyone from Austria to Wales, without their consent.

If we believe in democracy, then in order to rule the people, you must first put yourself before them and earn the powers that you're given. If that doesn't happen, it's not democracy, it's an arrangement.

Meanwhile,

http://www.rte.ie/business/2009/0702/ceos.html (http://www.rte.ie/business/2009/0702/ceos.html)


an overwhelming majority of chief executives see ratification of the Lisbon Treaty as the single most important factor in getting the economy back on track.

This is the kind of rubbish that needs to be corrected. :mad: The Lisbon Treaty will not get the economy back on track. If anyone believes otherwise, see the December budget as evidence. And the one the year after, and the year after.

26 countries put the Treaty past parliament. Every single one of them is now in recession, as we are. The EU neither has the will nor the funds to restart their economies, Lisbon or no Lisbon.

[Mr A]

How is the European presidency all that different from the post of Taoiseach then? One elected by democratically elected governments, the other elected by TDs. There's one more level of abstraction, but it's not a million miles apart.

Anyhoo, doesn't Lisbon move more power to the parliament rather than the commission? Surely that's a good thing from a democratic standpoint?

[mypost]

The parliament has no power. It's a talking shop, with no government and no opposition. It's a retirement home for failed politicians.

The Irish people in their wisdom, elected Bertie Ahern as Taoiseach, and in his resignation, Brian Cowen and his party to lead the country.

They won't elect Tony Blair, Gonzalez, or anyone else for that matter as European President. Said President won't give a flying 4x about Ireland, he will about the big 5 countries. The rest can sleep for the next 5 years.

[Dodge]

The parliament has no power. It's a talking shop, with no government and no opposition. It's a retirement home for failed politicians.

The Irish people in their wisdom, elected Bertie Ahern as Taoiseach, and in his resignation, Brian Cowen.

They won't elect Tony Blair, Gonzalez, or anyone else for that matter as European President. Said President won't give a flying 4x about Ireland, he will about the big 5 countries. The rest can sleep for the next 5 years.

The people of Dublin Central voted Bertie Ahern in, not the country. It was the TDs that selcted him to lead them

Blair is being selected by the exact same people, apread out over 27 countries

[mypost]

People knew that if they voted FF, they wanted and got Ahern as Taoiseach. If they voted FG, they would have got a different Taoiseach. FF got the votes from the electorate, so Ahern retained his position.

In America, Obama was voted into office by the public. Blair is being selected by a handful of people in comparison, and may not even need a vote, let alone a public one, in order to rule Europe. There's a lot wrong with that, imo.

[Mr A]

I don't accept that the European Parliment is powerless. In fact for the individual member they probably have a better chance of making a real difference than they would do in the Dail.

[mypost]

The Parliament debate, vote, and accept the proposals put forward by the "bureaucrats" i.e. the Commission. There is no government, no opposition, and no power. It's a 5 year holiday for rejected politicians. Many of them get so bored by it, that as soon as a national election comes up, they go for that, or else drift off into the sunset after their term is up.

The public face of the EU, are Barroso, Solana, the President of the Parliament (kind of the EU's Donie Cassidy) the Commissioners, and the sitting President of the current Presidency. A very very small and exclusive brand of people.

[mypost]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0706/breaking35.htm

[dahamsta]

Ah well, at least we're not paying for... ah...

[mypost]

Patricia Mc Kenna has her say:

http://www.mayonews.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=7049&Itemid=40

[eamo1]

The second referendum is on 2nd of October.Look at this report for amazing bias from RTE.They dont even try to hide it anymore.
http://www.rte.ie/aertel/104-01.html

[mypost]

So the gun's trigger has been fired. Expect a load of "economic terrorism" from the power-freaks for the next 3 months.

When speaking to people on the subject over the last while, the response has been very encouraging regarding the No vote. Most are as resolutely opposed to it, as they were before, and asking "why do we have to vote again?" There's been little reassurance required.

Sadly, that feedback hasn't been reflected in the misleading public polls conducted. :rolleyes: Hopefully, it will in October.

[OneRedArmy]

So the gun's trigger has been fired. Expect a load of "economic terrorism" from the power-freaks for the next 3 months.

When speaking to people on the subject over the last while, the response has been very encouraging regarding the No vote. Most are as resolutely opposed to it, as they were before, and asking "why do we have to vote again?" There's been little reassurance required.

Sadly, that feedback hasn't been reflected in the misleading public polls conducted. :rolleyes: Hopefully, it will in October.Exactly why have the polls been misleading?

As for 3 months of economic terrorism, it's no different to the 3 months of pathetic lies, scaremongering and jingoistic claptrap Coir and Libertas subject us to last time, which you didn't object too much too.

Means to an end as long as it's the right end?:rolleyes:

[jebus]

Expect a whole load of nonsense regarding the government having no respect for the voting public or democracy in the coming months I guess

I'm still voting Yes by the way as it's still the right move for Ireland

[Poor Student]

Expect a whole load of nonsense regarding the government having no respect for the voting public or democracy in the coming months I guess

And that's just mypost.;)

[mypost]

Expect a whole load of nonsense regarding the government having no respect for the voting public or democracy in the coming months I guess

It can't be nonsense when it's the truth.

[jebus]

It can't be nonsense when it's the truth.

A) What part of putting something to the public to vote on is undemocratic

B) Have you never seen Ripley's Believe It Or Not?

[mypost]

A) What part of putting something to the public to vote on is undemocratic

We've already voted on it. That's it. Or should be.


B) Have you never seen Ripley's Believe It Or Not?

:confused:

[jebus]

We've already voted on it. That's it. Or should be.


When was that made a rule? Should we never be allowed have a referendum on abortion in the history of the state again in this instance?



:confused:

You sure are

[mypost]

When was that made a rule? Should we never be allowed have a referendum on abortion in the history of the state again in this instance?

How many abortion referendums have we had within 18 months of each other?
How many of those referendums were on the exact same question?
How many of those referendums affect abortion in other countries?

Comparing domestic abortion (and divorce) referendums with EU Treaty referendums is nonsense.

In a democratic vote, be it election/referendum/strike notice/leadership vote, whatever, you get one go at the ballot box. In a democracy, you accept the result, whether you like it or not. There is no replay.

Unless it's our government obviously.

[micls]

In a democratic vote, be it election/referendum/strike notice/leadership vote, whatever, you get one go at the ballot box. In a democracy, you accept the result, whether you like it or not. There is no replay.


So in your 'democracy' people aren't allowed to change their minds?

That's democratic alright.....

It's not complicated, if people still don't want it they'l just vote no again. If they vote yes ten surely calling the second vote was justified?

[dahamsta]

Lads, we've been down the rerunning road before, some of us think rerunning it again so quickly idiotic, some of ye think it's idiotic not to; we're not going to agree so drop it and move on. If it comes up again, I'm tossing the person responsible out of CA for a week.

[mypost]

The second referendum is on 2nd of October.Look at this report for amazing bias from RTE.They dont even try to hide it anymore.

Cowen didn't even wait for the formal debate of the bill in the Dail, before announcing the date of the referendum.

It's taking place now, and it's a bit of a farce tbh, with 155-odd TD's agreeing with each other, and most repeating the non-existent "guarantees" we're supposed to have got. It will be the same debate tomorrow in the Seanad.

[anto1208]

Im all for getting this vote passed even if it takes 10 re runs, anything that takes power no matter how tiny an amount away from "our" goverment is a good thing!!