Lisbon Treaty

[dahamsta]

I wasn't consulted about it. Anyone?

You could probably draw up a list of who was consulted by copying and pasting committe and subcommittee names from the EU site, plus of course a full list of EU lobbyists...

adam

[dfx-]

And we're still looking for the Yes side to come up with A credible reason why this treaty benefits Ireland. :confused:

This treaty is not about Ireland, it's about Europe. There is more to Europe than Ireland and how it benefits Ireland. I'm voting on my opinion as a European, not Irish.

[pete]

I wasn't consulted about it. Anyone?

You could probably draw up a list of who was consulted by copying and pasting committee and subcommittee names from the EU site, plus of course a full list of EU lobbyists...

adam

I know Wikipedia not a definitive source. Consultation was for the EU Constitution which the Lisbon Treaty is largely based on.



The European Convention (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Convention) was established with 105 members, chaired by former French president Valéry Giscard d'Estaing. Its members were drawn from the national parliaments of member states and candidate countries, the European Parliament, the European Commission, and representatives of heads of state and government. The Convention met for the first time in February 2002, and met thereafter in plenary session once or twice per month. It deliberated in public in the European Parliament building in Brussels.

All these people are elected or former elected officials.

I presume EU lobbiest would be include the likes of Big Business, small business, farmers, environmentalists & trade unions.

Like many Treaties hard to find a direct benefit to Ireland. The EU will be a more effective organisation with administrative changes in the Treaty which indirectly benefits Ireland as many of the Irish laws come indirectly from the EU.

[Macy]

Like many Treaties hard to find a direct benefit to Ireland. The EU will be a more effective organisation with administrative changes in the Treaty which indirectly benefits Ireland as many of the Irish laws come indirectly from the EU.
How come 27 Commissioners is too many for the whole EU, but the Government here have, what is it now, 35 ministers for just Ireland?

[pete]

How come 27 Commissioners is too many for the whole EU, but the Government here have, what is it now, 35 ministers for just Ireland?

Yes, 35 Ministers & Ministers for State in Ireland. Give me a Referendum which limits to say 25 in Irish Constitution & I will vote Yes. Fianna Fail increased the Ministers for State to 20. Maybe we could get the EU to impose a limit on us?

[Macy]

Yes, 35 Ministers & Ministers for State in Ireland....
Fianna Fail increased the Ministers for State to 20.

So how can credibly argue that 27 is too many for the EU? Efficiency me arse.

[pete]

So how can credibly argue that 27 is too many for the EU? Efficiency me arse.

If I said there should be no Ministers for State in Ireland would that be acceptable. To ensure they had 27 Commissioners they had to basically invent roles. With extra members that gets worse.

[Dodge]

Still trying to find a credible organisation that is backing a No vote. So far there options are Shinners preaching about Militarisation, Bible Bashers warning against democracy (Three Monkeys posters), Former Commies warning against sovereignty, Shady organisation probably backed by US Military interests warning against democracy, abortion & neutrality. How can any of these organisations be taken seriously?

At least on the Yes side it is obvious why the organisations want the Treaty passed.

From what I have read the Lisbon Treaty (based on EU Constitution) has been created based on the biggest consultation process ever undertaken in Europe.
Starting looking at posters the past couple of days.

reasons to vote no;
If FF and FG both think its right, it can't be good.

Reasons to vote yes;
shameful emotive language like "people died for your freedom...."

I'll probably vote no, just to see if they'll pull a mulligan like Nice and see if they can force it through this time too


Oh and the number of EU ministers is a ridiculously pedantic point. I'd guess there is at least 50 different "topics" that could have ministers. can't see why having specialised ministers is worse than general types like "Finance"

[GavinZac]

And we're still looking for the Yes side to come up with A credible reason why this treaty benefits Ireland. :confused:What's good for the EU is good for Ireland. This treaty wasn't supposed to be about 4 million people holding 491.5 million hostage for the "best deal". No credible person can deny this is true; instead people are being fed lies about mandatory military service, abortions, taxation and privatised health care, by the shinner isolationist fascists and their issues with Mandelson, and by some shady faceless US funded lobby group.

[pete]

Reasons to Vote based various groups

Yes
FF - Good for Ireland & Europe
FG - Better to be inside than outside.
IBEC - Good for jobs.
Labour - ?
Greens - ?
PDs - ?

No
Right Wing Religious - Europe won't listen to us (3 monkeys)
SF - Renegotiate the Treaty
Libertas - Undemocratic/Militaristation
Unknown group - Sovereignty (1916 poster)
No Alliance or something - Because France & Holland voted that way.
Socialists/Workers Party - ?

IMO voting No just because France & Holland rejected the Constitution is the most bizarre logic.

[Macy]

Socialists/Workers Party - ?

Embeds privatisation/ competition agenda, contains clauses on business rights but not workers rights, militarisation and common defence.

Biffo is actually the best thing that's happened to the no campaign - his recent bully boy tactics on the treaty of FG and Labour supporters has got peoples backs up and I know several that jacking in campaigning on it since he had the go. A bit bizarre, as for most of the time FG have been leading the campaign - now they have their chance to distance themselves from the result which looks more dodgy after recent polls, and recent EU interventions.

[osarusan]

What's good for the EU is good for Ireland.



FF - Good for Ireland & Europe

I've not followed this issue closely because I can't vote on it, but from what I've seen on this site, the issue seems to be that when pressed to explain specifically how this treaty is good for Ireland, the 'yes' side have had a lot of trouble doing so.

Is that correct?

[holidaysong]

Unknown group - Sovereignty (1916 poster)


That group is called 'Coir'.

[Dodge]

I've not followed this issue closely because I can't vote on it, but from what I've seen on this site, the issue seems to be that when pressed to explain specifically how this treaty is good for Ireland, the 'yes' side have had a lot of trouble doing so.

Is that correct?
yes.

I forgot to add a reason to vote no was that IBEC are urging people to vote yes on the basis of job creation. LOL

[Lionel Ritchie]

That group is called 'Coir'.

Well they've no web presence as searches have informed me that Coir is the fiberous husk as the base of a coconut.

The logic of such people does irritate me I must admit ...namely that we can never do anything that mightn't sit well with those who "died for our freedom". What's our freedom worth if we're expected to facilitate Paddy Pearses wish (unexpressed at that) to wield executive clout from the grave?

[holidaysong]

Well they've no web presence as searches have informed me that Coir is the fiberous husk as the base of a coconut.


Here is where I seen it:


THE Labour party has criticised one of the groups supporting a no vote in the Lisbon treaty referendum, claiming it was revisiting “alarmist” tactics used in the 1995 divorce referendum.

Coir, campaigning against the treaty, erected posters bearing messages such as “People died for your freedom — don’t throw it all away”. Another says “Lisbon: it will cost you more tax — less power”.

Labour, backing the treaty, claimed such messages were “deliberately misleading”. The party claimed Coir was associated with those who had erected the “Hello Divorce: Goodbye Daddy” posters in the referendum of 13 years ago.


http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2008/05/15/story62801.asp


EDIT: Here is their website - http://www.lisbonvote.com/

'Click here for funny Lisbon video'... :rolleyes:

[micls]

An 'adult' told a kid in my class that if this gets passed then all kids will have to join the army when they are 18.......how do you respond to rubbish like that?

[pete]

That group is called 'Coir'.

I thought they were the religious nuts with the 3 monkeys posters? :confused:

btw the post above was just trying outline the reasons the various groups were urging a vote one way or the other not to explain the logic.

[holidaysong]

I thought they were the religious nuts with the 3 monkeys posters? :confused:

btw the post above was just trying outline the reasons the various groups were urging a vote one way or the other not to explain the logic.

The Irish Examiner article I posted above claims they are also behind the 'Don't throw away your freedom' posters too... :confused:

[Dodge]

An 'adult' told a kid in my class that if this gets passed then all kids will have to join the army when they are 18.......how do you respond to rubbish like that?
Tell them it'll toughen 'em up and prepare them better for live in general

[jebus]

If I were a kid and was told I'd be in the army at 18 I'd have thought it was pretty cool, yes all the way.

On Joe Higgins of the Socialist Party advocating a 'No' vote on the grounds that it will push along privatisation of the health and education system, well is that true? Haven't read much about those issues in relation to this treaty and was wondering what the story is

[Angus]

I was at an industry lunch today where the most annoying man in the rodl was strongly advocating a "yes" vote and that my head would fall off if I voted "no".

Now I know this is no basis on which to exercise my mandate but I am tempted .........

[pete]

On Joe Higgins of the Socialist Party advocating a 'No' vote on the grounds that it will push along privatisation of the health and education system, well is that true? Haven't read much about those issues in relation to this treaty and was wondering what the story is

I believe this may be something to do with competition but can't remember any direct link to the Treaty. Competition is good as stops governments from distorting by propping up their own businesses leading to unfair competition.

Private hospitals are already being built before this Treaty passed. I am not aware that the EU are pushing this - FF were elected to government in the full knowledge this was happening.

[mypost]

I'm voting on my opinion as a European, not Irish.

Blood is thicker than water.

As an Irish citizen voting in an Irish referendum, your primary concern should be how this will affect Irish people, similiar to how you would in any other referendum, before worrying how it will affect Cyprus, Poland, and Lithuania.


This treaty wasn't supposed to be about 4 million people holding 491.5 million hostage for the "best deal".

The 491.5 million citizens have no vote on this constitution which is going to have a major impact on their lives and livelihoods for decades. Their parliaments are railroading it through without dissent tolerated in each of the other 26 member states, and you reckon they all want this joke to be ratified here?? :confused: :rolleyes:

[pete]

As an Irish citizen voting in an Irish referendum, your primary concern should be how this will affect Irish people, similiar to how you would in any other referendum, before worrying how it will affect Cyprus, Poland, and Lithuania.


A good reason to ignore the calls from some people to vote No just because other countries voted that way or because they don't require a referendum in their countries.

Any one want to have a guess at turnout for this? I think little chance will top 50%.

[Macy]

Any one want to have a guess at turnout for this? I think little chance will top 50%.
I reckon it'll be lower than that, meaning a No vote (as people who don't know or don't really care won't bother and are more likely to yes voters). The low turnout will give them the excuse to go again.

[jebus]

Turnout will be between 35-40% I believe, the majority I know aren't going to bother as they feel they either haven't been informed adequately (Yes) or honestly (No) on the Treaty

[GavinZac]

I've not followed this issue closely because I can't vote on it, but from what I've seen on this site, the issue seems to be that when pressed to explain specifically how this treaty is good for Ireland, the 'yes' side have had a lot of trouble doing so.

Is that correct?

Its not directly beneficial to us. Our powers are reduced from an exaggerated level to a fair level. The question being, is it worth it for a better run Europe?

[GavinZac]

Blood is thicker than water.

As an Irish citizen voting in an Irish referendum, your primary concern should be how this will affect Irish people, similiar to how you would in any other referendum, before worrying how it will affect Cyprus, Poland, and Lithuania.

Don't you consider the Irish public to be stupid and hate them for electing FF continually? Would it be fair to say that, rather than looking for the best deal for the Irish public, you want to vote whats best for yourself?

[mypost]

Don't you consider the Irish public to be stupid and hate them for electing FF continually?

That's the third generalisation you've made in this thread, and unsurprisingly it's wrong again. :rolleyes:

I made up my mind 5 years ago on this, before it was agreed under the Irish Presidency. Party politics doesn't count imo, the issues in it do. Looking at the issues in it, and how they affect our country, it was a fairly easy decision to reach.

In the general election last year, I weighed up the government's record over the previous 5 years and voted accordingly. If I see an improvement in that record, I will review that vote next time round.

[GavinZac]

That's the third generalisation you've made in this thread, and unsurprisingly it's wrong again. :rolleyes:

I made up my mind 5 years ago on this, before it was agreed under the Irish Presidency. Party politics doesn't count imo, the issues in it do. Looking at the issues in it, and how they affect our country, it was a fairly easy decision to reach.

In the general election last year, I weighed up the government's record over the previous 5 years and voted accordingly. If I see an improvement in that record, I will review that vote next time round.
Are you going to admit calling the general populace of this country stupid, or do I have to go dragging up posts from 10 months ago?

[dahamsta]

I won't admit it, I'll shout it from the rooftops -- when it comes to many subjects, the level of collective stupidity in Ireland is incredibly high, probably on a par with the americans. We're gullible and naive in the extreme, and embarassingly easily led by marketing and deception. It's a major problem imho.

adam

[BohsPartisan]

On Joe Higgins of the Socialist Party advocating a 'No' vote on the grounds that it will push along privatisation of the health and education system, well is that true? Haven't read much about those issues in relation to this treaty and was wondering what the story is

http://www.caeuc.org/index.php?q=node/8

http://irishsocialist.net/

[GavinZac]

This is the aim of the oft-repeated EU policy: “an open market economy with free competition” in Art 105 TFEU. Protocol six of the new treaty states: “The internal market as set out in Article [1-3] ... includes a system ensuring that competition is not distorted.” Article 1-3 is about the objectives of the EU. Competition is one of the EU’s organising principles and is the framework for all other policies.Right, so are the SP only realising that there's a free market and the increased competition that goes with it now, or what?


Since the 1980s the EU has also moved to restructure essential public services such as water and sanitation, public transport, energy, post and telecoms as private businesses.Really? The EU has moved to do this? It doesn't have its own water and sanitation, which countries has it 'bullied' into privatising these things? And, y'know, when will they get round to Ireland, because the ESB, Bus Eireann, Iarnrod Eireann and An Post are overpriced rubbish. It really shows the desperation here when they throw in Telecoms as if accessing Foot.ie was a cornerstone of human rights the same as access to healthcare and education.
And now, health, education and social care systems are in focus.If this was wikipedia, I'd be sticking a big "CITATION NEEDED" mark next to this statement. Where does it say this?

I voted SP in the last election. I'm not used to them lying. It really seems like the last throes of a dying entity to suddenly go from campaigning against motor insurance (now significantly reduced, not by socialist regulations but by EU competition) to decrying the EU as a Freedman-esque free for all.

Neo-liberalism is EU policy, and it is pushed further by this renamed constitution.Can we get over the whole "the last one was called the Constitutional Treaty" malarky, and deal with the actual contents of this one?

Oh, and I like poking around these sites for the signs that they're not all they seem to be, little hints that they're just sensationalist grasping conspiracy theorists, more at home beside Republican Sinn Fein than serious sources of information. Complaining that the EU increases competition? Well, at least thats relevant, if not a surprise; its mentioned in the treaty. Now, where in the treaty does it say "Israel shall be allowed to kill Palestinians"? http://www.indymedia.ie/attachments/may2008/outside_the_israeli_embassy.jpg

[37Beour]

My opinion on the matter is that since when do all the major parties in Ireland come into agreement and want us the Irish public to vote yes!!! :confused:

Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and Labour urging us to vote yes. The only party telling us to vote no is Sinn Féin, does anybody else find this strange!! Big Banners and posters everywhere telling us to vote yes......they are scarily urging us to vote in favour of this Treaty.

Also why is it that Ireland is the only country having a referendum? Because all the other EU countries are aware that their respective citizens will vote no....."France was just ahead of all the other countries in voting No. It would happen in all Member States if they have a referendum. There is a cleavage between people and governments… A referendum now would bring Europe into danger. There will be no Treaty if we had a referendum in France, which would again be followed by a referendum in the UK.”
- Nicolas Sarkozy, French President (EUobserver, 14 November 2007)

EU will have too much power and rights and there is a def bad feeling about this one. DEF VOTING NO.

[mypost]

My opinion on the matter is that since when do all the major parties in Ireland come into agreement and want us the Irish public to vote yes!!! :confused:

Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and Labour urging us to vote yes. The only party telling us to vote no is Sinn Féin, does anybody else find this strange!! Big Banners and posters everywhere telling us to vote yes......they are scarily urging us to vote in favour of this Treaty.

DEF VOTING NO.

FF, FG, and Labour and the PD's all vote yes to EU referendums. As coalition partners, the Greens are not allowed to vote No, and are not campaigning for the referendum as a result.

[Block G Raptor]

I won't admit it, I'll shout it from the rooftops -- when it comes to many subjects, the level of collective stupidity in Ireland is incredibly high, probably on a par with the americans. We're gullible and naive in the extreme, and embarassingly easily led by marketing and deception. It's a major problem imho.

adam

I don't agree with much our fearless leader has to say, but it has to be said that on our opinions of politics and our estimation of the electorate in general we are 2 peas in a pod. well said adam

The Nice Treaty is a prime example. the electorate showed some backbone in voting no only to crumble when the bertie brigade (AKA Fianna Fail) came out and said "Ah Listen Lad's you've got it wrong you need to be voting yes to this, sure i tell ye what we'll give you another go!" ffs in any other country (well maybe with the exception of the US) the people would be in uproar at the cheek of the gov telling them (the people) that they are wrong and would have returned an even bigger majority against the treaty, but oh no not Ireland we bow our heads muttering our apologies to our masters in kildare st. and give them what they want. Democracy is supposed to work the other way with the government bending to the will of the people not vice versa, so we eventually signed up for nice and look at the state of the country now. Lisbon will only make things worse, and I hope to god the Irish electorate show this government that we won't be bullied into this but I'm not holding my breath

[anto1208]

Anyone know what it actually does ?

Will it take power away from our goverment if so good ill vote yes.

I was a floating voter untill SF made up my mind for me if they say No im voting Yes

[Ash]

Havent read up much on it yet but heard rumblings about if a Yes vote goes
through then the EU can decide on and set some of our tax rates.

If this is the case its no wonder the Government are backing a Yes vote as
then if EU rises tax our bucks can turn around, shrug their shoulders and say,
well its EU not us raising tax and ye were the ones who voted for this to
happen.

Seems to take some of the accountability away from our own government.

If this isnt the case then apologies, as I said I havent read up on it myself
yet, just listening to others.

Had my head melted on the train the other day with a gobby wan from
Tullamore sitting beside me going on about it. She's gonna vote Yes cos her
Dad tol her that anyone voting No are people who hate Europe ... but she
was slightly concerned cos her mate told her if Yes goes through then we'll
all be sent to war. She's for Europe but against War ... although I got the
impression the only thing she liked or knew about Europe were from her
Budget Travel brochures

I'm telling you, we should send her to war cos 5 minutes listening to her would
force any foe into submission

[mypost]

Havent read up much on it yet but heard rumblings about if a Yes vote goes
through then the EU can decide on and set some of our tax rates.

If this is the case its no wonder the Government are backing a Yes vote as
then if EU rises tax our bucks can turn around, shrug their shoulders and say,
well its EU not us raising tax and ye were the ones who voted for this to
happen.

Seems to take some of the accountability away from our own government.

Power and money. More important to the Yes camp in this referendum than the wellbeing of the people. :o

[KevB76]

Havent read up much on it yet but heard rumblings about if a Yes vote goes
through then the EU can decide on and set some of our tax rates.


I think the tax rates are one of the things that remain under our own governments control ........for now.

What I would be concerned about following a yes vote is that a few years down the line with no representative and a diminsihed vote weighting, that the EU could shift the goalposts on taxation and we would be powerless to do anything about it (dont know if it that could happen but thats my concern).

[mypost]

I think the tax rates are one of the things that remain under our own governments control ........for now.

Oh apparantly, we have a veto.

Give it 6 months, until Sarkosy bullies Cowen and Martin around in Franglais: "Quel veeto?? Sez is EU Constitution now, no Eereesh Constitution." :D

:mad:

[John83]

I think the tax rates are one of the things that remain under our own governments control ........for now.

What I would be concerned about following a yes vote is that a few years down the line with no representative and a diminsihed vote weighting, that the EU could shift the goalposts on taxation and we would be powerless to do anything about it (dont know if it that could happen but thats my concern).
I don't think they could force it on anyone, and more importantly, I don't think too many governments would happily give up fiscal policy. We've already given up monetary policy, so giving up fiscal policy would leave us totally unable to moderate the economy.

[pete]

I don't think they could force it on anyone, and more importantly, I don't think too many governments would happily give up fiscal policy. We've already given up monetary policy, so giving up fiscal policy would leave us totally unable to moderate the economy.

The Lisbon Treaty does not affect Taxation Policy. There are several countries with lower corporation tax than Ireland so the EU cannot & will not change this. If they were to harmonise corporation tax why stop there & harmonise VAT & property taxes? The biggest proposers of this on the No side are Libertas who having been deliberately lying about this.

Of the other suggestions from campaigners the Lisbon Treaty also does not:
- privatise the health service (would the French & other countries with 100% public health system approve this?)
- change Neutrality
- introduce abortion
- change our sovereignty
- create a EU army

Virtually all the changes relate to voting rights.

Best idea is to ignore the politicians, read the Ref Comm website & decide if you approve of the changes.

[mypost]

This constitution is all about power centrally controlled to 5 countries and 22 countries beneath them. The EU Constitution, already rejected in 2 member states, as it's name implies, takes priority over all member constitutions. The Constitution renders obsolete, all previous signed and ratified EU treaties by means of multiple amendments to them, in order to "streamline" the decision making process. It involves the automatic loss to the right of a commissioner, voting rights seriously affected, and the loss of the right to hold the EU Presidency. In short, there is nothing on offer to benefit citizens, unless they're politicians.

As the only electorate permitted to vote on it, that's the reality that Irish and European citizens face should our electorate obey Cowen/Kenny/Harney/Gilmore, and the Unions with vested interests next week.

[GavinZac]

This constitution is all about power centrally controlled to 5 countries and 22 countries beneath them. The EU Constitution, already rejected in 2 member states, as it's name implies, takes priority over all member constitutions. The Constitution renders obsolete, all previous signed and ratified EU treaties by means of multiple amendments to them,You seem a bit confused. You're talking about the Lisbon Treaty, but calling it the Constitution, presumably referring to the Constitutional Treaty that was passed democratically by 18 sovereign nations and rejected by 2, leaving 7 unable to vote.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_establishing_a_Constitution_for_Europe#Rati fication_of_the_Treaty
Strangely, of course, you talk of the "5 countries" benefiting from the "constitution", yet of the 5 largest countries, only Germany, Italy and Spain passed the CT, with France rejecting it and the UK looking as if it would have rejected it too. Without going into too much detail (we aren't here to talk about the Constitutional Treaty, judging by the title of this thread), why exactly would these countries reject something which gives them far more power? And, given that the Lisbon Treaty explicitly protects against 3 powers such as Germany, Italy and Spain forcing issues, where does the fear of these 3 passing countries putting others "beneath them" come from?

in order to "streamline" the decision making process. It involves the automatic loss to the right of a commissioner, voting rights seriously affected, and the loss of the right to hold the EU Presidency. In short, there is nothing on offer to benefit citizens, unless they're politicians. Thats a strange contradiction. The politicians lose power, yet they are the only ones to benefit? Nobody has explained this contradiction since I pointed it out a few pages ago.

Havent read up much on it yet but heard rumblings about if a Yes vote goes through then the EU can decide on and set some of our tax rates. ... her mate told her if Yes goes through then we'll all be sent to war. Just a few example of the lies that are being spread, mostly by ridiculous street-side posters, where they don't feel the need to explain their claims.

The Nice Treaty is a prime example. the electorate showed some backbone in voting no only to crumble when the bertie brigade (AKA Fianna Fail) came out and said "Ah Listen Lad's you've got it wrong you need to be voting yes to this, sure i tell ye what we'll give you another go!" You can say that as many times as you like but its not bloody true.

[Macy]

Interesting timing of the "Independent" Referendum Commission intervention. Pity they blew it for the Yes side by not being able to answer a question about the treaty. The People are expected to vote Yes on Treaty that even the bloody quango set up to explain it can't answer questions on. :rolleyes:

[Block G Raptor]

You can say that as many times as you like but its not bloody true.

What part is not true. The Irish people rejected the Nice Treaty and after a government campaign of scaremongering and doomsday scenarios the VERY SAME treaty was put to the Irish people again and they (I dont use we here because I voted no both times) accepted it. that is documented fact so I don't know how many times I have to say it before you accept it as such

[mypost]

You're talking about the Lisbon Treaty, but calling it the Constitution.

There's no confusion. I prefer to call it the Constitution, basically because it is, under the guise of "Treaty".


Strangely, of course, you talk of the "5 countries" benefiting from the "constitution", yet of the 5 largest countries, only Germany, Italy and Spain passed the CT, with France rejecting it and the UK looking as if it would have rejected it too. why exactly would these countries reject something which gives them far more power? And, given that the Lisbon Treaty explicitly protects against 3 powers such as Germany, Italy and Spain forcing issues, where does the fear of these 3 passing countries putting others "beneath them" come from?

Germany, Italy, and Spain all ratified it through parliament, where the outcome is rigged. France and the UK, won't put it to referendums either, as the only way they'll get it through is by denying the public they represent the chance to vote on it. "EU Democracy?? You're having a laugh."

[Student Mullet]

What part is not true. The Irish people rejected the Nice Treaty and after a government campaign of scaremongering and doomsday scenarios the VERY SAME treaty was put to the Irish people again and they (I dont use we here because I voted no both times) accepted it. that is documented fact so I don't know how many times I have to say it before you accept it as such

Some of it is fact and some of it is opinion.