Lisbon Treaty

[superfrank]

Blatant lying and demands that we milk the result for everything we can get isn't arrogance? If the reality were mypost's anti-EU, anti-immigration, anti-everything views, or BohsPartisan's dreams of a vague socialist overthrow of the oligarchy, it almost wouldn't be too bad. Instead the reality is that the fallout of this is soundbites around europe of Gerry Adams recommending we hold the EU hostage like a gigantic Shergar or Ben Dunne.
I was talking about the EU politicians.

[dahamsta]

I'd have to wonder about the attention someone is paying to what's actually going on, if they're asking who said "no plan b". Take your pick (http://www.google.ie/search?aq=-1&oq=&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial&hs=pQg&q=%22no+plan+b%22+lisbon+&btnG=Search). Brian Cowen was quoted as saying it on Newstalk. I heard Dick Roche say "there's no Plan C" myself on the same station, which was funny in and of itself. Various leaders and representatives of European countries, the Commission, etc, etc. Perhaps less of the righteous indignation, ranting and abuse and more of the listening might help.

adam

[osarusan]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7453839.stm


EU mulls options after Irish No vote

But there was no answer. "There is no plan B!" we were told.

To be honest, it began to sound like a rather tired refrain. And - surprise, surprise - it turns out that in fact there are a number of possible plan Bs.

[OneRedArmy]

I'd have to wonder about the attention someone is paying to what's actually going on if they're asking who said "no plan b". Take your pick (http://www.google.ie/search?aq=-1&oq=&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial&hs=pQg&q=%22no+plan+b%22+lisbon+&btnG=Search). Brian Cowen was quoted as saying it on Newstalk. I heard Dick Roche say "there's no Plan C" myself on the same station, which was funny in and of itself. Various leaders and representatives of European countries, the Commission, etc, etc. Perhaps less of the righteous indignation, ranting and abuse and more of the listening might help.

adamAdam, I'm not surprised the Yes side publicly said there was no plan B in the run up to the vote, as to have a plan B you are admitting that you could be defeated, which would have almost been a self-fulfilling prophecy.

That said, I would've expected them, privately, to have a plan B in their back pockets to launch following defeat, particularly in the weeks running up to the vote when it was clear the vote, whilst undecided, definately wasn't going to be a resounding Yes.

I don't think you'll find many people arguing the Yes side come out of this with much credit at all. If Cowen had been in the job any longer I think this could have been terminal for him, and it may still work out that way.

But personally, I view that as a separate issue as to whether to vote Yes or No.

[Bald Student]

The reaction from the different eurpoean countries to the no vote seem very mixed and often contradictory to me.

Initially the French and Germans went on the attack saying that Ireland must sort out her problem or get left behind. It seems that someone has had a word in their ear since and that's been toned right down. At around the same time the British were saying that Ireland won't be bullied or left behind. Now the Commission has taken a middle road and said that we'll be given a few months of space to decide what we want to do next.

If there was a 'Plan C' I would have expected to see a better level of coordination. The various european politicians seem to me to be making this up as they go along.

[dahamsta]

I'm not talking about before the referendum, I'm talking about afterwards. Follow the link in my post, read the articles, check the dates.

"No Plan B" says one of two things:


I'm incompetent.
I'm a liar.

There are no other interpretations.

adam

[pineapple stu]

The reaction from the different eurpoean countries to the no vote seem very mixed and often contradictory to me.
Interesting that the Czech President Vaclav Klaus is happy with the vote (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article4133769.ece) - "It is a victory of freedom and reason over artificial elitist projects and European bureaucracy." I assume they haven't ratified the treaty yet?

[dfx-]

Who said "No Plan B"? I'd imagine they were referring to the total lack of a discernible, logical set of reasons for the No result.

I'd imagine Plan B is to sort out what we actually want, present that to the EU, and see if changes can be made that suit everyone.

We don't have agreement on what we actually want yet, so the Taoiseach is telling the EU we need time to reflect.


Blatant lying and demands that we milk the result for everything we can get isn't arrogance? If the reality were mypost's anti-EU, anti-immigration, anti-everything views, or BohsPartisan's dreams of a vague socialist overthrow of the oligarchy, it almost wouldn't be too bad. Instead the reality is that the fallout of this is soundbites around europe of Gerry Adams recommending we hold the EU hostage like a gigantic Shergar or Ben Dunne.

*notices that he's nodding his head in full agreement on all points again*

No plan B can mean many things:


3. There is little or nothing to change or negotiate on.
4. You were given your chance. Live with your choice.

In the circumstances of those determined to vote no regardless, we should be let rot/live with our choice.

Still an abhorrent embarrassment* of a result, a week on.

*For want of more offensive terms at the cost of accuracy

[GavinZac]

I'm not talking about before the referendum, I'm talking about afterwards. Follow the link in my post, read the articles, check the dates.

"No Plan B" says one of two things:


I'm incompetent.
I'm a liar.

There are no other interpretations.

adamThere are plenty of other interpretations. For starters, its not a case of 'shall we go down road A, or down road B'. We're going down road A regardless, but a bridge needs to be built to get there (sorry, tacky metaphors seem the order of the day). Given that the No side have not ever tried to present a reasonable alternative (mass revolt excluded) to solving the ills of the current EU structures, they have not presented a 'plan B'. That doesn't mean we're in Limbo.

[Bald Student]

Interesting that the Czech President Vaclav Klaus is happy with the vote (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article4133769.ece) - "It is a victory of freedom and reason over artificial elitist projects and European bureaucracy." I assume they haven't ratified the treaty yet?I always find it funny when people like a president give out about 'the elite'.

[pineapple stu]

He's a Man of the People, clearly.

[OneRedArmy]

I'm not talking about before the referendum, I'm talking about afterwards. Follow the link in my post, read the articles, check the dates.

"No Plan B" says one of two things:


I'm incompetent.
I'm a liar.

There are no other interpretations.

adamI'll go for the former.

On an unrelated point, I can't get over the arrogance of some Irish groups who are encouraging other nations not to ratify, based on the decision of the Irish people to vote No.

Does it not occur to anyone that national Governments represent their own citizens? If you follow this, then the other 26 have no option but to ratify as they have no mandate whatsoever to reference the Irish result.

[pineapple stu]

IIf you follow this, then the other 26 have no option but to ratify as they have no mandate whatsoever to reference the Irish result.
Well, no - they can reject it of their own volition, which is a separate (though admittedly unlikely) option. Ireland's vote being irrelevant in the context of other countries' votes means it doesn't affect it either way.

[BohsPartisan]

I'll go for the former.

On an unrelated point, I can't get over the arrogance of some Irish groups who are encouraging other nations not to ratify, based on the decision of the Irish people to vote No.

Does it not occur to anyone that national Governments represent their own citizens? If you follow this, then the other 26 have no option but to ratify as they have no mandate whatsoever to reference the Irish result.
They had no mandate to ratify either. It wasn't explicitly part of their election manifestos.

The rules state that if one nation doesn't ratify the treaty falls. Clear enough. Couldn't the governments of Europe be using the time more constructively, say maybe implementing some of the much vaunted "positive" aspects of the treaty that do't require an EU treaty. I look forward to all these friends of the people implementing generous Charters of Workers rights and getting down to solving the problem of climate change.

Or maybe they could ask their citizens if they actually want the Treaty?

[pete]

Does anyone know for a fact that the EU cannot proceed with some aspects of Lisbon without us?

It is possible the term Pan B could be used two ways
- plan B to implement Lisbon.
- plan B for a new Treaty.

I think it is natural that the EU look towards Ireland. It is up to them to decide if a second vote happens, they just need to hear from Cowan what he plans to do as they can't look at other plans until then. Still think this is a massive test for him both domestically and internationally. He will be able to delay for a while because the main opposition is on the Yes side but ultimately he has to make a decision. Choose the wrong one & he may never recover.

[pineapple stu]

Does anyone know for a fact that the EU cannot proceed with some aspects of Lisbon without us?
It's been mentioned, but then so has a two-speed Europe, with countries opting out of continuing integration if they want/are told to. Don't know how real an option that is though.

[SMorgan]

The last thing the EU wants is a two-tier membership. It may start off with Ireland being the founder member, but I think the EU would be fearful that other countries would actively seek the slow lane option. The last thing the EU wants is a top tier with 15 counties and a lower tier with 12 counties. This two-tier issue is rolled out every single time there is a major disagreement in the Union. Apparently the UK were going to be in an effective lower tier because they didn't sign up to the Euro and the European Central Bank. No sign of that!!

[mypost]

If the reality were mypost's anti-EU, anti-immigration, anti-everything views...

:confused:

I voted for the Nice Treaty, which was pro-EU, and pro-immigration, as has been seen since. :rolleyes:

I'm not anti-EU, I'm anti this constitution, and have been long before the original one was agreed, and will continue to be until it's consigned to the bin, where it should be after we declared it null and void last week.

Yesterday, Napoleon announced that without this treaty, further enlargement wasn't possible.

Great. Pity your mate Chirac didn't realise that 5 years ago, and not allow the Eastern bloc in, then there wouldn't be the need for this airhead idea of a "constitution" in the first place. The EU invited them all in, so it's their problem if they can't run the Union "more efficiently" as a result, not Ireland's.

Shut...door...horse...bolted

[GavinZac]

consigned to the bin, where it should be after we declared it null and void last week.We havent decided what we're going to do about it, have we? The Taoiseach has told them we need til October to sort the situation out. Essentially, we haven't passed the treaty but we haven't ruled out that amendments or a declaration like that in Seville dismissing all the lies of the No campaign might see it actually being passed. Now, I don't think that will happen. But its within the realms of possibility so as long as we're humming and hawing, why do you want to take away other country's right to pass it, or as looks like in the Czech R., block it. It doesn't matter if 26 countries pass it, it can't happen if we never say Yes.


Yesterday, Napoleon announced that without this treaty, further enlargement wasn't possible.Thats a turn up for the books. Cryogenics, or what?


Great. Pity your mate Chiracooo am I part of the political class :eek:
didn't realise that 5 years ago, and not allow the Eastern bloc in, then there wouldn't be the need for this airhead idea of a "constitution" in the first place. The EU invited them all in, so it's their problem if they can't run the Union "more efficiently" as a result, not Ireland's. Shut...door...horse...boltedPoles out, Ireland for the Irish, and so on. Funny what an economic slowdown can do to people.

[BohsPartisan]

ooo am I part of the political class :eek: Poles out, Ireland for the Irish, and so on. Funny what an economic slowdown can do to people.


Immigrations a non issue. With the economy going the way that will slow down too. What is an issue is the super exploitation of migrant labour.

[GavinZac]

Immigrations a non issue. With the economy going the way that will slow down too.Will slow down. Unfortunately, the vote was last week. Having met with someone currently doing a thesis on immigration in Ireland this weekend, it very much is an issue, right now. Some of the soundbites were vicious. You might have grand ideals of how and what the EU should be, but most people think with their pockets.

[jebus]

Immigrations a non issue. With the economy going the way that will slow down too. What is an issue is the super exploitation of migrant labour.

Afraid I disagree with you there, in parts at least. It's been proven that immigration is the easiest fear to pray on in the working class vote when jobs are on the line. The economy is slowing down and 'the foreigner' is starting to get the finger pointed at them. Lived with a builder up until about a month ago and he had nothing but bad things to say about the Poles stealing Irish jobs (never mentioned the Irish contractor who was making the decision though:rolleyes:), and during the campaign my housemate Marcelo (Brazilian) brought home the 'No To Foreign Rule' campaign poster because he thought it was ridiculously funny in it's under the table racist message.

I agree that immigration will slow down with the economic downturn, but who do you think will get the blame for then downturn in then first place? Not the greedy Irish ******* exploiting foreign workers, oh no, that's not the Irish way, we'll point the finger at the dirty foreigner who is willing to work for less money than we are.

Back on the environment BohsPartisan, you say the EU care little for climate change? I suggest you pick up a copy of today's Guardian and read about the UK's new strictly green 2020 vision. A policy that has been implemented so they can reach the standards set out by the EU, standards that sadly aren't going to be implemented as across the board EU policy without the Lisbon Treaty.

[BohsPartisan]

Kind of proves my point though (if they really implement and enforce the policy - I'll have to have a look at it later) that you don't need the Lisbon Treaty for this. If the UK government can implement it without Lisbon so can everyone else.

On immigration, I meant it was a non issue in terms of the Lisbon Treaty (for the vast majority). agree it can be used to whip up prejudice and is usually done by mainstream politicians when things get desperate.

When things get sh1t there is an opportunity to racists to flourish but its up to people like us to present an alternative.


Unfortunately, the vote was last week. Having met with someone currently doing a thesis on immigration in Ireland this weekend, it very much is an issue, right now. Some of the soundbites were vicious. You might have grand ideals of how and what the EU should be, but most people think with their pockets.

I'm not saying there are no racists, but they are in a small minority. Anyone can do a vox pop and play back the most sensational ones. I used to do vox pops and the producer for the show I was working on always picked the dumbest fux to play.

If people were really thinking with their pockets my "grand ideals" as you put them would be a far better way of going about it.

[mypost]

We havent decided what we're going to do about it, have we? The Taoiseach has told them we need til October to sort the situation out.

Unlike the other leaders, Cowen can't decide what to do with the treaty, the Irish electorate are the ones who make the decision not just for this country, but for the whole EU. We've made our decision, the treaty is null and void without us.

With the Dail sitting for no more than 6 weeks between now and the next summit, there will be no ideas proposed by October. Sarkosy aka Napoleon, should understand that Cowen has more issues to worry about in this country, than a poxy Treaty that we've told them we don't want.

PS: The best thing for Cowen to do, would be to do nothing, and await the outcome of the legal challenges against the Constitution in the UK and the Czech Republic, before deciding what road he wants to go down.

[jebus]

PS: The best thing for Cowen to do, would be to do nothing, and await the outcome of the legal challenges against the Constitution in the UK and the Czech Republic, before deciding what road he wants to go down.

So he should wait til October before deciding what to do then :rolleyes:

[OneRedArmy]

Today's Business Post poll should finally shut up those who claimed we voted No for reasons related to Lisbon.

[BohsPartisan]

Today's Business Post poll should finally shut up those who claimed we voted No for reasons related to Lisbon.

Well all the facts in the world never shut you up from making your ridiculous arguments.

[SMorgan]

Today's Business Post poll should finally shut up those who claimed we voted No for reasons related to Lisbon.

With the greatest of respect, come back when MRBI carry out an opinion poll. If Red C told us entering the poll that the Yes side had a narrow lead on what was a relatively simple yes/no issue, how can you put much trust in a far more complex analysis based on the same sample size?

And did the Red C ask why people voted Yes?

Perhaps, the Lisbon Treaty will be dead if we voted No?? (we'd be so lucky)

or

I didn't understand it but the political parties told me to vote yes. (D.J. Carey on Joe Duffy's Liveline)

[Angus]

Can we just get a few things out of the way here ?

1. Not all "No" voters did so because of the no campaign

2. Not all "Yes" voters did so because of the yes campaign

3. Not all not voters believe the no campaign or are in any way supportive of Ganley, Sinn fein etc etc

4. Not all no voters are ignorant of economic theory as it relates to europe

5. Not all no voters are opposed to a second referendum e.g. if the commissioner was restored and the powers of the foreign ministry were diluted, I will change my vote

6. It is entirely plausible and legitimate to vote no on economic grounds

7. Even if it wasn't, there is more to life than economics - plenty of people voted no for concerns around soveriegnty

8. The concern that the EU establishment want a Federal Europe is a legitimate one - even if the Treaty stops short of syaing that, there is a real, legitimate concern that a USE is the end game and this is a valid reason for voting no

9. Not everybody who did not understand the treaty voted no - plenty of people voted yes because they were advised to so do

10. It is not necessary to read the treaty to form a view on it

11. A no vote does not mean an anti EU vote

12. This was not a vote on how good you thought the EU has been in the past

13. Please do not insult my intelligence Mr Barroso by suggesting that 5 years of negotiating and summits was to produce an "administrative framework" to allow 27 countries to work together more efficiently - utter drivel




Bye now

[OneRedArmy]

Well all the facts in the world never shut you up from making your ridiculous arguments.Based on your posts, you don't sound like a Business Post reader, so I'd recommend you read the results of the poll before you comment.

[pete]

The only way immigration entered Lisbon was from the "they took out jobs...!!!" brigade.

If there are no jobs in Ireland foreign people will leave. Foreign workers is a sight of strong demand for workers or low supply. You won't see polish builders stay here on the dole when no work as they will leave for UK or wherever.

[bennocelt]

When things get sh1t there is an opportunity to racists to flourish but its up to people like us to present an alternative.

I'm not saying there are no racists, but they are in a small minority. Anyone can do a vox pop and play back the most sensational ones. I used to do vox pops and the producer for the show I was working on always picked the dumbest fux to play.
.

Well my wife is a foreigner and she has NEVER encountered any racist comments from anybody, but then it could be the fact that she has chosen to embrace irish life and irish culture. Its easy to call irish people racist, etc but a lot of the people coming into this country are not really top drawer.

I voted no, and im proud that our deomcracy has shown up the fools in our onw country and brussels. Why do the No voters havee to explain anything, surely its up to our elected reps to go with our choice and do some deals for us, and not whinge that they are sorry

[pineapple stu]

If there are no jobs in Ireland foreign people will leave. Foreign workers is a sight of strong demand for workers or low supply. You won't see polish builders stay here on the dole when no work as they will leave for UK or wherever.
I dunno. It's probable alright, though in a recession, who's more likely to be let go - the cheap Poles or the expensive, unionised Irish?

[BohsPartisan]

Based on your posts, you don't sound like a Business Post reader, so I'd recommend you read the results of the poll before you comment.

You're right I'm not a business post reader. Well, I've bought it a few times depending on what was in it. Don't know why you discern that from my posts. Would it surprise you that I regularly read the Economist? I read the Irish Times (online) despite their extreme Yes bias and don't bother a Sunday Paper at all these days. (Used to get the Observer ftr).

The poll you cite was carried out by Red C who got the result horrendously wrong in their last poll while MRBI called the outcome close enough so I'd go with their previous poll on the referendum reasons why over Red C.
In fact if I was to go with any poll, I'd go with this detailed eurobarometer survey carried out by the European Commission.
http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/flash/fl_245_en.pdf
As you'll see one of the main reasons people gave for voting yes was "Europe has been good for Ireland", nothing to do with Lisbon.

[OneRedArmy]

Well my wife is a foreigner and she has NEVER encountered any racist comments from anybody, but then it could be the fact that she has chosen to embrace irish life and irish culture. Its easy to call irish people racist, etc but a lot of the people coming into this country are not really top drawer.Ah, the Norman Tebbitt cricket test?

PS A lot of Irish people aren't exactly top drawer.

[Bald Student]

I tend to agree with the pieces of evidence that confirm my pre-existing opinions and find fault with those which contradict it.

[jebus]

Well my wife is a foreigner and she has NEVER encountered any racist comments from anybody, but then it could be the fact that she has chosen to embrace irish life and irish culture. Its easy to call irish people racist, etc but a lot of the people coming into this country are not really top drawer.

What in the Christ is that about?!

[pineapple stu]

It's persumably to do with the seemingly high proportion of foreign nationals who end up in the Criminal Court, though whether that's media bias or fact is left unexplored.

[jebus]

It's persumably to do with the seemingly high proportion of foreign nationals who end up in the Criminal Court, though whether that's media bias or fact is left unexplored.

% of foreign nationals who end up in the criminal courts in relation to the amount of foreign nationals permitted to work here in the same time frame please. I've never heard anyone say a high percentage of foreign nationals end up in court in this country

[pineapple stu]

See the second half of my post.

[TonyD]

I tend to agree with the pieces of evidence that confirm my pre-existing opinions and find fault with those which contradict it.

That works for me too :D

[mypost]

Based on your posts, you don't sound like a Business Post reader

Business Post readers are "Yes" voters, so why would "No" voters read it?? Furthermore, since the figures and assumptions in their polls before the vote were shown to be a load of ballots, why would anyone believe them anymore??

Our Taoiseach was given a strong mandate last week to go to Brussels, and tell them; "this was the result, what are we going to do about it??" :confused:

However, all he did was state how sorry he was that we disobeyed him in a free vote, and was told by his masters from France and Germany, to vote again. :rolleyes: Instead of a man of steel, we have a laughing stock of a Taoiseach with no authority, either here or abroad.

[OneRedArmy]

Business Post readers are "Yes" voters, so why would "No" voters read it?? Furthermore, since the figures and assumptions in their polls before the vote were shown to be a load of ballots, why would anyone believe them anymore??.Laughable.


Our Taoiseach was given a strong mandate last week to go to Brussels, and tell them; "this was the result, what are we going to do about it??" :confused:
However, all he did was state how sorry he was that we disobeyed him in a free vote, and was told by his masters from France and Germany, to vote again. :rolleyes: Instead of a man of steel, we have a laughing stock of a Taoiseach with no authority, either here or abroad.Thats what happens when less than 1% tries to force the other 99%.

[Angus]

Laughable.
Thats what happens when less than 1% tries to force the other 99%.

Huh ? I didn't seek to force anybody - I was given a yes / no decision and made a decision.

Funny how people suspend their democratic leanings when they don't like the result.

[GavinZac]

Huh ? I didn't seek to force anybody - I was given a yes / no decision and made a decision.

Funny how people suspend their democratic leanings when they don't like the result.

Funny how people suspend their democratic leanings when they think they can hold someone to ransom.

The Lisbon treaty brought democracy, or "majoritarianism" as the No's called it, to more EU decisions. It brought the system closer to one man, one vote, for every EU citizen rather than special treatment for some. And it ensured a way of every citizen in the EU having a commissioner from their state 2/3's of the time, just like everyone else.

Fair, balanced, equal - apparently not things people want, when currently the scales are tipped in their favour; especially not when the last 2/3 they heard about is the new value of the house they're paying the bank for.

[pete]

I tend to agree with the pieces of evidence that confirm my pre-existing opinions and find fault with those which contradict it.

True. That is why we watch, read or listen to any form of media.

[Macy]

Funny how people suspend their democratic leanings when they think they can hold someone to ransom.

The Lisbon treaty brought democracy, or "majoritarianism" as the No's called it, to more EU decisions. It brought the system closer to one man, one vote, for every EU citizen rather than special treatment for some. And it ensured a way of every citizen in the EU having a commissioner from their state 2/3's of the time, just like everyone else.
The people rejected the Lisbon Treaty, which whether you like it or not is supposed to be passed on the basis of unanimity.

[GavinZac]

The people rejected the Lisbon Treaty, which whether you like it or not is supposed to be passed on the basis of unanimity.
... who said I didn't like it? What the hell has that got to do with anything? :confused: Its not going to be 'stealth passed' now, is it?

I reckon you just picked the most irrelevant thing you could so, so as to avoid addressing anything I said. Funnily, that's happened a few times in this thread.

[joe_barry80]

From the feedback I'm getting over here people are happy that Ireland voted no.
My wife's doctor was shaking my hand and saying thanks and other people at work also.

I think I would have voted yes. Just going on what the EU has done for Ireland. I haven't read anything about the treaty, maybe if I did I would have another opinion on it.

The EU has it's bad and good sides but I think Ireland has benefited a lot from it.

[OneRedArmy]

The people rejected the Lisbon Treaty, which whether you like it or not is supposed to be passed on the basis of unanimity.Of course it is.

Which is exactly why the 99% are asking us to re-consider our decision.

A lot of people seem to be automatically linking the fact that by voting no, we get some kind of free pass to renegotiate the Treaty, when patently this is not the case.

Whilst the ratification is by unanimity, the negotiation is most definitely by majority.

Ergo, thats why we aren't in the strong position that the No side would have us believe.

Declan Ganley has gone very quiet in the last few days as his prediction of how it would play out has turned out to be less than accurate.....