Lisbon Treaty

[John83]

Lucinda Creighton on RTE just basically said working class voters rejected the treaty because they were stupid racists and middle class voters didn't because they more astute.
Could you have a stab at a verbatum quote please?

[noby]

Anyone know do they open boxes in chronological order?


And how would they do that?

Early polls might have been from Dublin city centre, where the No vote is stronger

[GavinZac]

And as we know from the helpful Libertas posters, Lucinda Creighton is the voice of the Yes side.

[Sheridan]

Identified hysterical fear of cheap foreign labour as the reason for No votes in working class areas, indicative of the "social divide" and "terrifying."

[Macy]

Could you have a stab at a verbatum quote please?
It actually wasn't far off!

[Ringo]

updated as the morning goes on.

Carlow-Kilkenny
Boxes: 100%
Prediction Yes 51%/ No 49%
Comment: Overall quite even throughout constituency

Cavan-Monaghan
Boxes: 100%
Prediction Yes 45%/ No 55%

AdvertisementClare
Boxes: 100%
Prediction Yes 50%/ No 50%
Comment: Local feeling No could shade it


Cork East
Boxes: 100%
Prediction None
Comment: Pattern for a No vote


Cork North-Central
Boxes: 100%
Prediction Yes 35%/ No 65%

Cork North-West
Boxes: 100%
Prediction None
Comment: Pattern for a No majority


Cork South-Central
Boxes: 100%
Prediction Yes 45%/ No 55%


Cork South-West
Boxes: 100%
Prediction None
Comment: Pattern for a No majority


Donegal North-East
Boxes: 100%
Prediction Yes 42%/ No 58%

Donegal South-West
Boxes: 80%
Prediction Yes 45%/ No 55%

Dublin Central
Boxes: 100%
Prediction Yes 43%/ No 57%

Dublin Mid-West
Boxes: 100%
Prediction Yes 51%/ No 49%

Dublin North
Boxes: 100%
Prediction Yes 50%/ No 50%

Dublin North-Central
Boxes: 95%
Prediction Yes 44%/ No 56%

Dublin North-East
Boxes: 100%
Prediction Yes 42%/ No 58%
Comment: Donaghmede area 40%/60%


Dublin North-West
Boxes: 100%
Prediction Yes 38%/ No 62%

Dublin South
Boxes: 100%
Prediction Yes 60%/ No 40%

Dublin South-Central
Boxes: 100%
Prediction Yes 37%/ No 63%

Dublin South-East
Boxes: 100%
Prediction Yes 60%/ No 40%

Dublin South-West
Boxes: 50%
Prediction Yes 40%/ No 60%

Dublin West
Boxes: 100%
Prediction Yes 48%/ No 52%

Dún Laoghaire/Rathdown
Boxes: 100%
Prediction Yes 60%/ No 40%

Galway East
Boxes: 90%
Prediction Yes 40%/ No 60%
Comment: In country areas the count is very close


Galway West
Boxes: 100%
Prediction Yes 46%/ No 64%

Kerry North
Boxes: 70%
Prediction Yes 40%/ No 60%

Kerry South
Boxes: 100%
Prediction Yes 40%/ No 60%


Kildare North
Boxes: 100%
Prediction Yes 53%/ No 47%

Kildare South
Boxes: 100%
Prediction Yes 52%/ No 48%


Laois-Offaly
Boxes: 59%
Prediction Yes 52%/ No 48%
Comment: Expected Yes majority


Limerick East
Boxes: 100%
Prediction None

Limerick West
Boxes: 100%
Prediction None
Comment: Newcastlewest 64% No

Longford-Westmeath
Boxes: 100%
Prediction Yes 47%/ No 53%
Comment: Tally may not be reliable


Louth
Boxes: 47%
Prediction None

Mayo
Boxes: 90%
Prediction Yes 40%/ No 60%

Meath East
Boxes: 21%
Prediction Yes 50%/ No 50%
Comment: Too close to call


Meath West
Boxes: 50%
Prediction Yes 40%/ No 60%

Roscommon-South Leitrim
Boxes: 100%
Prediction Yes 45%/ No 55%

Sligo-North Leitrim
Boxes: 100%
Prediction Yes 40%/ No 60%

Tipperary North
Boxes: 100%
Prediction Yes 45%/ No 55%

Tipperary South
Boxes: 83%
Prediction Yes 49%/ No 51%

Waterford
Boxes: 42%
Prediction Yes 47%/ No 53%
Comment: Strong No in urban areas

Wexford
Boxes: 100%
Prediction Yes 40%/ No 60%


Wicklow
Boxes:
Prediction Yes / No
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0613/eulisbon1.html?rss

looks like a NO

http://www.rte.ie/business/2008/0613/euro.html


Euro Falling

[Macy]

If this is a No vote will be a very bad start for Brian Cowan.
He should've been campaigning instead of getting rat arsed in Tullamore. FF got side tracked on Aherns lap of honour and Cowens victory parade. Heard a point made on RTE that the general election campaign will effective start after next years locals with a view to a 2012 election, yet they thought they'd get away with 3 weeks for this?

[Réiteoir]

Waterford rejects the Treaty - 54-46

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0613/eulisbon.html

[Lionel Ritchie]

RTE reports suggest that the Yes vote is gaining on No, **has mental pictures of Lionel Ritchie as the punter in Paddy Powers tearing up his 'sure thing' ticket and stomping on it before marching out to the sounds of Germans doing a jig** :)

My docket? Safe in Pocket. Check Ringo's data from RTE on the other Lisbon thread. Blow it up ref.

[Dr. Ogba]

Voted yes. Don't take well to scaremongering and patronising campaigning (the monkey "can't see you etc..." and the "don't vote for another turkey" one)

[pete]

RTE still predicting strong No victory.

Will be very difficult to analysis the reasons why people voted No as so many different opinions.

[Schumi]

I only mentioned as I did not care for old wan telling me her maiden name was the same as my surname. Serious job demarcation too - one person to read the card & one to operate the pen & ruler. :p

They must have been multi-tasking in my place. The same guy did both.

[mypost]

Going well at the moment, but not declaring any result until the last of the 43 results comes in. I remember the abortion referendum in '02, where despite people declaring the result early, it wasn't until the very last constituency that decided the outcome.

[anto1208]

46% yes 53% no at the moment .

[Aberdonian Stu]

Yeah looks like a win for No but with a tighter margin than at present, probably somewhere between 51.5-48.5 and 52-48.

[pete]

They must have been multi-tasking in my place. The same guy did both.

Making the rest of them look bad. :)

[Macy]

If there is a Lisbon II vote, all the No side will have to do is broadcast all the sanctimonious, condescending crap (and in some cases purely bitter venom) that the Yes side are coming out with today, and it'll be an even wider no margin. All this guff about why it was lost, lies on the no side etc - all they have to do is listen to themselves and see why people didn't trust them or vote with them.

[deecay]

Great result,if only the working class could vote for themselves in general elections by not voting in fianna fail/fianna gael.

Would also like to say HAHA to all yes middle class people

[jebus]

Great result,if only the working class could vote for themselves in general elections by not voting in fianna fail/fianna gael.

Would also like to say HAHA to all yes middle class people

Yeah I'm sure that 5 bedroom house they have will give them some comfort though, how is the credit crunch by the way?*



What is/isn't working class these days?

[pete]

What is/isn't working class these days?

People who work at polling centres? well half them anyway :D

[eamo1]

Im so happy that the arrogant Government and completely Biased media have not been able to bully the Irish people.They just thought "sure we will stick up loads of VOTE YES posters and have VOTE yes headlines in the newspapers the days leading up to voting day and sure they will all fall into line and vote yes".I emailed the Irish Indo a letter calling for a no vote and it should have been printed either Monday or Tuesday but all they had on Monday and Tuesday were letters calling for a Yes Vote.
Also Fianna Fail members here in Galway City were yesterday morning handing out leaflets reminding people to vote,these leaflets also contained the words VOTE YES on them in big Bold letters.This was blatantly breaking the law,you cannot campaign on the day of a vote.Im even more glad they lost resorting to those tactics.

[jebus]

Also Fianna Fail members here in Galway City were yesterday morning handing out leaflets reminding people to vote,these leaflets also contained the words VOTE YES on them in big Bold letters.This was blatantly breaking the law,you cannot campaign on the day of a vote.Im even more glad they lost resorting to those tactics.

Isn't that law that you can't canvas near polling stations? Libertas were handing out flyers after work on Henry St in Dublin yesterday anyway

[dublinred]

Im so happy that the arrogant Government and completely Biased media have not been able to bully the Irish people.They just thought "sure we will stick up loads of VOTE YES posters and have VOTE yes headlines in the newspapers the days leading up to voting day and sure they will all fall into line and vote yes".I emailed the Irish Indo a letter calling for a no vote and it should have been printed either Monday or Tuesday but all they had on Monday and Tuesday were letters calling for a Yes Vote.
Also Fianna Fail members here in Galway City were yesterday morning handing out leaflets reminding people to vote,these leaflets also contained the words VOTE YES on them in big Bold letters.This was blatantly breaking the law,you cannot campaign on the day of a vote.Im even more glad they lost resorting to those tactics.

Agree totally , I voted no and am not one of the un-educated republican socialist working class people that the losing yes camp and the media are portraying as voting no.

[pineapple stu]

My point is that I was entitled to be given a copy of the Treaty at the polling station by the people working there ( I had that confirmed by the Dept of Enviro today), and they as State employess either weren't trained properly or weren't bothered. In essence for me that summed up the whole lazyness/ambiguity taken by the State in relation to this.

Thus for me it was the 'clincher' in terms of deciding, had nothing to do with being angry, but acted as the tipping point for what was for me a most difficult decision, as I know well that the Treaty isn't perfect but offers as many positives as negatives.

As an aside does anyone think that wording on the ballot paper might of been slightly confusing and some who wanted the treaty accepted might of voted 'no' thinking that would achieve a 'yes' ?

Funny to think that the Government is asking people like you to make decision on issues like these.


perhaps people will not be swayed by ridiculous claims on posters (some of the Yes ones weren't inculpable of hysteria either)
I'd be surprised if you could show me one poster, either for or against, which had any merit in the slightest. Should all be banned, I think. Nothing more than litter. "Don't vote for another turkey! ('Cos Europe didn't vote for Dustin). "Vote yes for jobs and money!" "Here's my face - I say yes! Vote for me in the next election" "Did James Connolly die for this?!" All drivel.

[anto1208]

I wonder how many people voted for some mad reason, ive heard today

1. they will have a president of europe ( we all ready do )
2. They will raise taxes/abortion/EU army with conscription/death penalty !!!
3. School summer holidays will be cut to 1 month.

and now the conspiracy theory that the goverment wanted a NO vote so didnt make the effort to convince us :D

[GavinZac]

Great result,if only the working class could vote for themselves in general elections by not voting in fianna fail/fianna gael.I gather you think we'd be better off with Gerry Adams as Taoiseach then?


Would also like to say HAHA to all yes middle class peopleWhats middle class?


If there is a Lisbon II vote, all the No side will have to do is broadcast all the sanctimonious, condescending crap (and in some cases purely bitter venom) that the Yes side are coming out with today, and it'll be an even wider no margin. All this guff about why it was lost, lies on the no side etc - all they have to do is listen to themselves and see why people didn't trust them or vote with them.
I don't know why people chose to believe Sinn Fein over every other organisation, but what can people do if one side are flagrantly disregarding the truth, both nationally and at local level with the rumours of EU army conscription and such?

When Nice was rejected, it was for a solid, identifiable reason; our neutrality. Sure, the No campaign then bleated the exact same other things they did in this campaign, but none of them were effective; once the treaty was changed to give us special dispensation, it solved the problem and with neutrality no longer in doubt, the Irish people passed the amended treaty. Now with Lisbon, I don't know where we go from here. For some reason this time the Irish people believed the same lies they've been fed over and over in every other campaign; rather than learning from experience that things like abortion, EU armies, gay marriage and such were just scaremongering, this time they seem to have taken them on board. How does one amend a treaty for that? The Irish MEPs who worked on this, what do they tell Brussels? Why did Ireland vote No?

I suspect the truth of the matter is that rising off-shoring, unemployment and fuel prices are what were voted against yesterday, despite it being of no help whatsoever. If ever there was a treaty in which it was pointless to vote based upon the contents of your wallet this was it.

The lies and deceit were supposed to be the last desperate roll of the dice from an ever increasingly pointless Sinn Fein and the now marginalised Socialist Party. Unfortunately the vote came at a time when the economy and unemployment havent looked as bad for nearly a decade; the winners in all of this are nobody but Sinn Fein's council who will bleat about a victory validating the party, until the next election when they are resoundingly put back in their boxes.

[passinginterest]

This was posted on our message board in work and I think it sums up very well why the no campaign was so successful, they played the tactics to perfection and caught the government on the hop:


You have to credit the tactics of the No campaign, in how swiftly they switch their main point of attack against the Treaty, from topic to topic.

If you notice it has moved from abortion, to tax, to the ag veto, to commissioners etc, and while the Yes campaign try to put out one fire, the NOs light another in a different direction. This means that the YES have to literally spend all their time on defence, putting out fires, rather than being able to take to the offence, and sell the benefits of a yes vote.

The YES rail against this, but what counter measures have they deployed? Where are televised party political broadcasts, selling (uninterrupted) the benefits?

For example, on the issue of not understanding the treaty, as has been mentioned by others, we don't insist on understanding all aspects of the working of the internal combustion engine, for us to get in our car and trust it to take us to our destination, and yet it is now said to be the biggest reason for the majority of voters to vote NO.

The NO tactics being used, were first espoused as a military tactic in "the Art of War". If you light fires all over the place or do as a Guerilla movement would do which is to strike and move, the other side cannot pin you down. The population will then think the enemy is more numerous than it is, and the fear will grow as they "see" more and more fires.

Ranged on one side you have all the major political parties, all the major employers groups, the Unions, the Unis, overseas company's with plants here, farmers, and even the Church. What one would think should ostensibly be a walkover for the YES, and yet it is not. I would suggest the reason for this is superior tactics.

[mypost]

When Nice was rejected, it was for a solid, identifiable reason; our neutrality. Sure, the No campaign then bleated the exact same other things they did in this campaign, but none of them were effective; once the treaty was changed to give us special dispensation, it solved the problem and with neutrality no longer in doubt, the Irish people passed the amended treaty.

The Nice Treaty wasn't changed, the Seville Declaration was made to state our guaranteed neutrality on the Treaty, which eased concerns and allowed it to pass, 2nd time around.

[Roadend]

I wonder how many people voted for some mad reason, ive heard today

1. they will have a president of europe ( we all ready do )
2. They will raise taxes/abortion/EU army with conscription/death penalty !!!
3. School summer holidays will be cut to 1 month.

and now the conspiracy theory that the goverment wanted a NO vote so didnt make the effort to convince us :D

They had a bit on the BBC website where some fella said he was voting no as the Treaty would limit couples to only having two children

[mypost]

There are no benefits to citizens with this treaty, just politicians. The politicians in the other states have spoken, as have the citizens here.

[GavinZac]

This was posted on our message board in work and I think it sums up very well why the no campaign was so successful, they played the tactics to perfection and caught the government on the hop:

Thats completely true. For feck sake, for 2 weeks I had to look out my window and see Eamon Gilmore looking pensive with no actual reason to vote Yes. Labour treated this as an election run, Fine Gael seemed quietly ready to place the blame on Fianna Fail for not doing enough, and Fianna Fail obligingly gave them every reason to.

Perhaps they thought the referendum handbook would be enough. It wasn't. People needed hand holding and to be told, no, this doesn't make us the USA. No, this doesn't give the queerhawks next door the right to marry, no this doesn't make it any easier for Miroslaw to take your job. It never came. I like the Sun Tzu reference, because this is exactly what it was like; a ephemeral enemy following no rules of engagement, impossible to pin down; of no substance but ready and willing to do what ever it took to get their way. The correlation between this and some of Sinn Fein's other previous expertise is too much not to mention...

[GavinZac]

There are no benefits to citizens with this treaty, just politicians. The politicians in the other states have spoken, as have the citizens here.

The very same politicians who would have lost their power, according to your arguments. Right.

[SMorgan]

I really think it's a bit rich for Yes supporters to be crying about scaremongering, lies and deceit. Do I really need to explain why such comments are hypocritical by pointing out the very obvious?

Ireland has decided. All democrats must accept that decision and move on from here.

[jebus]

Ireland has decided. All democrats must accept that decision and move on from here.

See you next year for Lison Treaty 2: The Reckoning

[GavinZac]

I really think it's a bit rich for Yes supporters to be crying about scaremongering, lies and deceit. Do I really need to explain why such comments are hypocritical by pointing out the very obvious?...Yes?

[Cymro]

At least you guys got a vote. Be glad of that, even if you don't like the result.

[mypost]

The result has been declared, and the objectives of the No side have been achieved. I congratulate the members of foot.ie who rejected it. The No side have been written off for months on end, however he who laughs last, laughs loudest.

[pete]

I have no problem accepting the result but I am still curious why people voted No. It was obvious why Nice I failed which is why it passed the second time.

[GavinZac]

The result has been declared, and the objectives of the No side have been achieved. I congratulate the members of foot.ie who rejected it. The No side have been written off for months on end, however he who laughs last, laughs loudest.

What have you achieved?

[superfrank]

Ah conservatism! Preservation of the status quo. Everybody wins with a No vote.

No side get the win, nothing changes for the Yes side.

[rebelarmyexile]

Quite depressing to see that the Irish people (in particular the working classes) cannot tell the difference between right and wrong, i.e. the benefits of Lisbon being implemented and the lies and ill assumptions by the No side.

Though was proud to see that my constituency passed the Treaty, but a bit close for comfort.

[SMorgan]

A great great day to be Irish.

Its a day that Ireland said that its wasn't going to be bullied or threatened into accepting something that wasn't right.

Does these words not make you feel like a mug?

"Public opinion will be led to adopt, without knowing it, the proposals that we dare not present to them directly" ... "All the earlier proposals will be in the new text, but will be hidden and disguised in some way."

Valéry Giscard d'Estaing


When Cowen goes to Brussels he shouldn't accept any lectures from the French.

[GavinZac]

A great great day to be Irish.No, no its not. I ask again, what have we achieved?


Its a day that Ireland said that its wasn't going to be bullied or threatened into accepting something that wasn't right.Instead it was bullied and threatened into submission by the lies of a shady lobby group and a marginal nationalist, socialist political party. Oh yes, I feel wonderful.


Does these words not make you feel like a mug?
"Public opinion will be led to adopt, without knowing it, the proposals that we dare not present to them directly" ... "All the earlier proposals will be in the new text, but will be hidden and disguised in some way."
Valéry Giscard d'EstaingApart from him being an irrelevance from 80s French politics, you're also perpetuating a mistranslation. Here's a tip: Mostly people don't speak with ellipses.

[Calcio Jack]

[QUOTE=pineapple stu;962425]Funny to think that the Government is asking people like you to make decision on issues like these.


most if not all of the idiots in our Govt wouldn't be fit to lace my boots..a crowd of fools who supported the likes of Ahern, Haughey, Burke and their cronies, and ambled into an ambush by a few well organised groups from the 'no'side by not recognising the need to get out there and work hard at convincing the Irish people of the need to vote 'yes'.... now that's funny;)

[pineapple stu]

What were you going to do with the treaty if you were given it? Were you going to knock back for a few hours and have a read? Suppose it'd all fall into place then. Course, you could have read what you were sent in the post beforehand, but that sounds too much like common sense.

There should be regulations to judge you intelligent enough to vote. The first one would be that you'd fail.

[dfx-]

There's no "I couldn't vote":confused:

Anyway, I'll get another chance to put that right and vote yes another time.

[Ambaiste!]

Apart from him being an irrelevance from 80s French politics, you're also perpetuating a mistranslation. Here's a tip: Mostly people don't speak with ellipses.

I'm sure you mean the 70s, but I'm still surprised that you would describe the man who served as President of the Convention on the Future of Europe as recently as 2003, and whose proposals formed the basis for the failed European Constitution upon which the Lisbon Treaty is largely based, as an "irrelevance".

[pineapple stu]

the benefits of Lisbon being implemented
What benefits were they?

Your post sums up the Yes argument - "It's good for us!!! But we're not going to make any attempt to explain why" That's why it failed.

[dfx-]

No, no its not. I ask again, what have we achieved?

Instead it was bullied and threatened into submission by the lies of a shady lobby group and a marginal nationalist, socialist political party. Oh yes, I feel wonderful.

I'm finding I agree with GavinZac and jebus more often recently. Should I be worried?:)

A not unexpected, but nonetheless embarrassing indictment of a result.

[GavinZac]

I'm finding I agree with GavinZac and jebus more often recently. Should I be worried?:)

A not unexpected, but nonetheless embarrassing indictment of a result.

Yes, because that means me and jebus are agreeing too :eek: