Lisbon Treaty

[GavinZac]

Now that the Lisbon treaty is nearly over with when is the vote on the Lisburn treaty ive been hearing about ?

Vote yes to detaching Ulster and giving it a gentle nudge toward Greenland

[dahamsta]

It's the Lesbian Treaty I'm looking forward to.

[Lionel Ritchie]

They're hardly going to, Python-esque, put "all member states (except Ireland)" after every bloody concession we've gotten, are they? The piece that exempts us from these areas, and other exceptional pieces like the ones specific to islands like ourselves and the UK, are in seperate places in their own treaties.

We are, categorically, not required to improve our military capabilities.


Hmmm ...then why not just leave out the All? Let it just read "Member states are required..."

A law-talkin' guy once told me (repeatedly) that the most important word in legalese is the word All. All means All and nothing less than All.
He said the very first thing you do in studying any contract/treaty is underline all of the Alls, write out what you understand each sentence they fall in to actually mean, query it and see if you can get the All deleted or changed to "certain specified", "certain specific" ...

[NeilMcD]

One thing people should realise is that the French and Germans do not rule the EU. In fact they probably have less say than they should, as their populations are so big. One could argue that if we were true democrats we woudl object to the fact that the peoples of France and Germany and the UK are under represented at the tables of power at the EU, as the smaller nations up to now have the same amount of commissioners etc. So these sort of scare tactics about a European Army and the harmonisation of corporation tax does not reflect the reality on the ground. Ireland is an integral part of the EU and we play a very big role in forming coalitions of like minded views. Negotians and consensus forming and networking are how it works out there and Ireland has shown itself to be very adept at such things.

There are over 12 nations that are against the harmonisation of corporation tax and a good few nations have a lower rate than us, Estonia for one having 0% per cent tax rate so they are not going to go for it.

In addition losing a veto in relation to a few ares is quite good as nobody wants an organisation to run by the power of the veto as it does not allow for pogressive ideas. However we do retain the veto in relation to defence.

[Macy]

A law-talkin' guy once told me (repeatedly) that the most important word in legalese is the word All. All means All and nothing less than All.
He said the very first thing you do in studying any contract/treaty is underline all of the Alls, write out what you understand each sentence they fall in to actually mean, query it and see if you can get the All deleted or changed to "certain specified", "certain specific" ...
No no no, you have to trust Dick Roche on this...

[pete]

One thing people should realise is that the French and Germans do not rule the EU. In fact they probably have less say than they should, as there populations are so big. One could argue that if we were true democrats the peoples of France and Germany and the UK are under represented and the tables of power at the EU as the smaller nations up to now have the same amout of commissioners etc. So these sort of scare tactics about a European Army and the harmonisation of corporation tax does not refet the reality on the ground. Ireland is an integral part of the EU and we play a very big role in forming coalitions of like minded views.

There are over 12 nations that are against the harmonisation of corporation tax and a good few nations have a lower rate than us, Estonia for one having 0% per cent tax rate so they are not going to go for it.

In addition losing a veto in relation to a few ares is quite good as nobody wants an organisation to run by the power of the veto as it does not allow for pogressive ideas. However we do retain the veto in relation to defence.

Good post. The tax issue is a scare tactic & nothing more. Will other countries increase their VAT to 21%? Will they all introduce VRT? Would the UK approve this? :rolleyes:

We are required to "improve our military capabilities" which I have no problem with as our Army deserve to have the best equipment we can provide. It doesn't mean we will be putting orders in for an aircraft carrier.

[kingdom hoop]

Are we doing an exit poll here for curiosity's sake?

[jebus]

Are we doing an exit poll here for curiosity's sake?

According to RTE the percentage of voter turnout in Sligo is 1%! :D

[kingdom hoop]

According to RTE the percentage of voter turnout in Sligo is 1%! :D

To be fair to the ambivalent people of Sligo the low turnout is at least partly attributable to how bad and uninspiring the campaign was.

[John83]

Are we doing an exit poll here for curiosity's sake?
Could do. I wouldn't expect it to reflect the national vote though. The general election polls here were strongly anti-government, I think.

[kingdom hoop]

I wouldn't expect it to reflect the national vote though.

Interesting of itself, I submit.

I'm going to vote shortly. Dramatic vacillations abounded over the past few weeks but I'm now leaning towards a Yes as in quite a good mood today. How's that for logic? Having read the Treaty John, was there anything in it that should make me change my mind?

[jebus]

I'm voting Yes after work if we do start using this as an exit poll

[mypost]

I'm going to vote shortly. I'm now leaning towards a Yes as in quite a good mood today. How's that for logic?

That's not logic, that's madness. :mad:

26 other countries are not allowed to vote, I'm sure many of their electorate are in a good mood today.

If you're going to shake Sarkosy's hand at the ballot box today, at least think hard about it before you do.

[jebus]

26 other countries are not allowed to vote, I'm sure many of their electorate are in a good mood today.

They already voted in their national elections, if they're not happy with the way their elected politicians are voting on this than I suggest they ask more questions in regards to said politicians party foreign policy next time

[shantykelly]

Vote yes to detaching Ulster and giving it a gentle nudge toward Greenland would prefer gran canaria please.

[kingdom hoop]

That's not logic, that's madness. :mad:


I always thought I was a little mad. Thanks for the confirmation. :)

As I explained, I've swayed side to side throughout. I couldn't make up my mind as neither side had compelling arguments, so now, because I'm in a positive mood, I'm voting Yes. Seems reasonable, if a bit silly.

[osarusan]

As I explained, I've swayed side to side throughout. I couldn't make up my mind as neither side had compelling arguments, so now, because I'm in a positive mood, I'm voting Yes. Seems reasonable, if a bit silly.
Wouldn't you feel that given the fact you've been unable to decide which way to vote, and given the fact that this is an issue which will have serious consequences regardless of the result, you'd be more responsible not to vote at all?

[superfrank]

Got my Yes vote in just there. There was nobody else there at the time but it was early afternoon.

[mypost]

They already voted in their national elections, if they're not happy with the way their elected politicians are voting on this than I suggest they ask more questions in regards to said politicians party foreign policy next time

We also voted in our national elections, where it's probably fair to say we didn't get much of a choice, between yes and no politicians. Much like the other 26. Only this time, we get to vote on the issue at hand, where elsewhere they've been gagged.

Osarusan, good post.

[pete]

26 other countries are not allowed to vote.

Germany is not allowed Referendums post Hitler.

[mypost]

Noone will have any more referendums at all, with a Yes vote, including us. More sovereignty given up.:o

[kingdom hoop]

Wouldn't you feel that given the fact you've been unable to decide which way to vote, and given the fact that this is an issue which will have serious consequences regardless of the result, you'd have been more responsible not to vote at all?

:) To a certain extent, definitely, and I did toy with that idea. But I'm going to squirm out of your reasonable cornering by saying that, rather than me having to be responsible in my decision-making, the responsibility lies more with the respective campaigns (and their supporters, like Mypost) to win my vote.

Because they had a perceptive audience reasonably educated on EU matters and couldn't do so suggests to me I can make my decision using whatever inane logic I want; I've listened to the arguments with an objective mind, none impressed sufficiently, so now the decision is in my capricious hands. That's the price you pay for not running a convincing campaign.

And, while not excusing my behaviour, surely it is far more of an egregious 'sin' for campaigners and posters here to try persuade people when they haven't read the Treaty. How responsible is that, I ask. Anyway what I really wonder is how responsible it is to delegate such an important decision to people who haven't a notion what it's about and what it'll mean in practice!

[mypost]

But I'm going to squirm out of your reasonable cornering by saying that, rather than me having to be responsible in my decision-making, the responsibility lies more with the respective campaigns (and their supporters, like Mypost) to win my vote.

You have a vote, i.e. you are responsible for exercising it with a little more care, than "I'm in a good mood today" You are making a decision on behalf of 500 million people, and are making it on one of the most stupid reasons I'ver ever heard of. :mad:

The Yes voters have been ordered by EU heads of state: "Sign, read afterwards". If in doubt, Vote No.

[jebus]

Anyway what I really wonder is how responsible it is to delegate such an important decision to people who haven't a notion what it's about and what it'll mean in practice!

I'm hoping this Treaty will mean the end to pointless Referendums like this, the one on divorce, the one on abortion, etc. It's like asking the baying mob what to do with Jesus at times. Hopefully we as an electorate would pull the finger out at local and national elections, elect competent officials and let them get on with the job of deciding these issues

[jebus]

If in doubt, Vote No.

Surely you should just not vote if in doubt? At least that's what I take from how angry you are at Hoop's process. Would you be kicking up such a fuss if he were voting No based on his mood?

[pete]

I predict 51.7 : 47.1 win for the Yes side. Turnout to be 47%.

[anto1208]

You have a vote, i.e. you are responsible for exercising it with a little more care, than "I'm in a good mood today" You are making a decision on behalf of 500 million people, and are making it on one of the most stupid reasons I'ver ever heard of. :mad:

The Yes voters have been ordered by EU heads of state: "Sign, read afterwards". If in doubt, Vote No.

If it starts raining im not going to go vote ;)

[kingdom hoop]

Mypost was that you who sent two Legion of Mary people to my door just now? (that genuinely happened) Divine intervention for the No side. Apparently Europe will become a dictatorship with the passing of this Treaty! The primacy of God in our Constitution will be relegated! Abortion! Euthanasia! All them things! Vote No!

Being a firm believer in spirituality if not necessarily gods I think that was a sign that I should vote No. So I'm going to vote No. Happy now Mypost? :)


I'm hoping this Treaty will mean the end to pointless Referendums like this, the one on divorce, the one on abortion, etc. It's like asking the baying mob what to do with Jesus at times. Hopefully we as an electorate would pull the finger out at local and national elections, elect competent officials and let them get on with the job of deciding these issues

Those shouts of "Jebus for President" are getting more and more convincing.

[OneRedArmy]

Anyway what I really wonder is how responsible it is to delegate such an important decision to people who haven't a notion what it's about and what it'll mean in practice!I'll be honest, I haven't read the full thread, but this line encapsulates exactly my position. Surely democracy is about placing trust in properly elected leaders?

[mypost]

Would you trust our leaders, with the nod and wink culture we have?? :confused:

Re:kingdom hoop, considering the fact that I haven't brought up references to abortion, euthanasia in my arguments, don't think so.

[dahamsta]

There isn't a hope of turnout being that high pete, although I'd agree that it'll probably be close cut. The question is, is is the Yes or the No side that didn't get off their arses?

adam

[dahamsta]

Running this today and tomorrow only, so vote early or... um... don't vote at all?

adam

[Terry]

I predict 51.7 : 47.1 win for the Yes side. Turnout to be 47%.
turnout will just scrap 30% by the looks of it.

[superfrank]

I voted Yes.

[dahamsta]

Well done superfrank. Just clicking the button would have sufficed.

[SkStu]

i felt the last option described me best - though i am slightly spoiled and come to think of it... im pretty indecisive too...

oh wait... this isnt facebook...

[dahamsta]

I love the way 3 people have chosen the last option btw, presumably in the mistaken belief that either I or they are being funny. I'm not.

If you didn't go out and vote today you're a loser, and if you admit that to me I'll tell you to shut up the next time you bitch about politician X or policy Y. Researching the issues doesn't take a lot of time - turn a radio on, open a newspaper, fire up a web browser - and going to the polling station takes even less.

You still have time to do it, so perhaps you should stop reading this and snickering to yourself like a retard, and put the time to good use.

[That wasn't aimed at you in particular SkStu. Although it is aimed at you in general, if you're being serious.]

adam

[Kingdom]

If SkStu's location is where he is at the moment he'll have done well to vote.

[SMorgan]

Does anybody know if there will be an official Exit Poll?

Interestingly the odds of a No vote are falling on Paddypower.com. Still odds-on for a Yes vote, but somebody out there is betting heavyly on a No vote.

[kingdom hoop]

Yeah it was 1/3 Yes : 2/1 No yesterday, but now 8/15 Yes : 11/8 No.

Wouldn't take much money for that to change though.

Of course they might just be looking at the above poll.

[SkStu]

If SkStu's location is where he is at the moment he'll have done well to vote.


i make a mean paper airplane so here's hoping my arm was strong enough.

but in all seriousness i agree with dahamsta 100% about exercising ones right to vote. I used to get so sick of people bitching about politicians etc etc only to find out that they hadnt actually bothered to vote in the first place - be it a general election or a referendum.

One thing i didnt ever bother voting on was the european elections funnily enough. And the one thing that im not entitled to in Canada is a vote. Free healthcare, you bet. Voting - no chance.

(unless i apply for canadian citizenship - "ermmm, no thanks man, im all good for citizenships right now")

[Stevo Da Gull]

I love the way 3 people have chosen the last option btw, presumably in the mistaken belief that either I or they are being funny. I'm not.

If you didn't go out and vote today you're a loser, and if you admit that to me I'll tell you to shut up the next time you bitch about politician X or policy Y. Researching the issues doesn't take a lot of time - turn a radio on, open a newspaper, fire up a web browser - and going to the polling station takes even less.

You still have time to do it, so perhaps you should stop reading this and snickering to yourself like a retard, and put the time to good use.

[That wasn't aimed at you in particular SkStu. Although it is aimed at you in general, if you're being serious.]

adam

I did vote, but surely if someone doesn't want to vote then that's their business :confused:

[dahamsta]

I did vote, but surely if someone doesn't want to vote then that's their business :confused:Absolutely. Now read my post again, only slower.

[Stevo Da Gull]

Absolutely. Now read my post again, only slower.

If I didn't vote I wouldn't bitch about politician x or y, simple as. And if you say something in a post should I just accept it as a fact? I did read up plenty on the treaty and still wasn't going to vote until changing my mind around 7pm... an extra 3 hours and I would (according to you) have been a loser. And a condescending reply isn't conducive to an open discussion.

[Dodge]

If you didn't go out and vote today you're a loser, and if you admit that to me I'll tell you to shut up the next time you bitch about politician X or policy Y.

No it means they can't bitch about this issue. All other issues are fair game. Being apathetic (faily sure thats a word...) doesn't make you a loser.

I voted no btw

[jebus]

I voted yes

[mypost]

The polls have closed, and Ireland has spoken. Tomorrow, we'll find out what was said.

[mypost]

2nd Lisbon Poll on foot.ie, which shows a majority of Nos. Yet according to the bookies and the media, the No side will lose. :confused:

[SMorgan]

I believe the turnout was in the low 40s. I am not sure that this is the good news for the Yes side that some commentators are making it out to be.

But the country has decided. Hoping its a 'No', but fearing its a 'Yes'.

[jebus]

2nd Lisbon Poll on foot.ie, which shows a majority of Nos. Yet according to the bookies and the media, the No side will lose. :confused:

Yeah I don't think they source their information from this website, at least I hope not