Lisbon Treaty

[dahamsta]

I've been meaning to ask: is Newstalk very slanted towards a No vote or are they genuinely picking up the feeling on the street?

[Student Mullet]

I've been meaning to ask: is Newstalk very slanted towards a No vote or are they genuinely picking up the feeling on the street?
Probably a bit of both. Newstalk always tries to give the government and 'the establishment' a hard time but RTÉ is the opposite so I don't think much of it.

[BohsPartisan]

@ Poor Student, it is clear that if you support Privatisation, Continental government, the rule of the few over the many etc. then you will be for this treaty. (Why is privatisation of public services bad? Do you want Micahel O'Leary, Dennis O'Brien or Tony O'Reilly running the health service and Education? How is it anything but bad?)In my view all those things are bad and in your view not so. I'm pointing out to anyone who thinks the Lisbon Treaty and public services not run for profit, workers rights, national sovereignty are compatible to show they are not. I have demonstrated that. As the quotes show, and actually there are plenty more from people like them, there is a deliberate attempt to cover up these aspects of the treaty.

The people of France and the Netherlands rejected this treay in its previous guise for those very reasons, now the clique that run the EU have decided that those countries will not get to vote again. So already we have democratic rights being removed. Sarkozy said the reason for this is that the french people would just vote it down again.

As for the context of D'Estaign's quote, it was from an interview in Le Monde on the differences between the Lisbon Treaty and the EU Constitution. In the interview he said that it was more or less the same thing and that there were some small changes - like the word constitution to avoid referendums. On why it was reworded he gave that quote.

Finally if you have to question Caesar's ideology, then you really are a poor student.

[pete]

Fairly bored with the debate at this stage as it has been debated to death & I think everyone has made up their minds at this stage. Only decision left to decide to cast vote.

Seen some of Q&A tonight. Terrible choice of panelists. Ganley (Libertas), Mary Lou, Michael Martin & Enda. I think Ganley made a fool of himself when refused to say Abortion cannot be forced on us - showed had no ethos at all & just looking to confuse. Very good joke from the audience about SF trying to stop US war planes at Shannon & Ganley trying to sell them his products. :)

[superfrank]

Both sides managed to land a few blows but nothing Earth-shattering.

[SMorgan]

Seen some of Q&A tonight. Terrible choice of panelists. Ganley (Libertas), Mary Lou, Michael Martin & Enda. I think Ganley made a fool of himself when refused to say Abortion cannot be forced on us - showed had no ethos at all & just looking to confuse. Very good joke from the audience about SF trying to stop US war planes at Shannon & Ganley trying to sell them his products. :)

Couldn't disagree more. I thought it was Martin that made a fool of himself. He was intent in shouting everybody down then complained that he was being interupted when he was speaking. Even Kenny couldn't get a word in edgeways with him. It wasn't as if he was making good points either. He was intent in addressing points that the No side aren't making. He spent the whole evening setting up his own targets to shoot down.

Martin gave Ganlely opportunities to ask him had he read the Treaty.

I made the No side the clear winners of last night's Q&A debate.

[Ash]

Do you want Micahel O'Leary, Dennis O'Brien or Tony O'Reilly running the health service and Education?

Now that is a harrowing thought.
Arrive into hospital ... €5 for the bed, and extra €10 if you didnt check-in online.
Overnight bag ... €10 per/night. But theres a 2 for 1 offer on sachets of
selected medicines. Surcharge for anesthetic ... the list goes on ....

Was in Tullamore on Saturday for Offaly-Westmeath match and unfortunately a load of little shytes
took advantage of the traffic stand still to take down some No posters and run up and down the
road shouting "Vote No" at everyone.
(PS I not calling the little shytes for promoting No, just that they were annoying so a lot of older
people probably now think its only the Ra and young hooligans who want a no vote!)

[Macy]

I've been meaning to ask: is Newstalk very slanted towards a No vote or are they genuinely picking up the feeling on the street?
I would've thought it was probably the most neutral. Interesting that Keane is off the last two weeks, as he really is basically the only one on any of the national stations who will ask the obvious (and hard questions) imo. RTE has generally been very bias, but then it always takes the Government line.

The Last Word last night and Morning Ireland this morning conveniently only having time left, in the interests of balance, for Cowan at this late stage. I really thought Cooper was better than that.

[anto1208]

Now that is a harrowing thought.
Arrive into hospital ... €5 for the bed, and extra €10 if you didnt check-in online.
Overnight bag ... €10 per/night. But theres a 2 for 1 offer on sachets of
selected medicines. Surcharge for anesthetic ... the list goes on ....



How amazing would that be i spent a few days in hospital 570 euro a night for a bed in a room with 3 others got a wrong diagnoisis sent home with all the wrong meds in agony for a week went back spent a few more days in there with docs guessing what was wrong!!

If i could get a Ryanair style 50 euro in and out in 2 hours treament from voting yes ill be voting Yes !!.

[dahamsta]

Let's drop the Ryanair analogies now please, and get back on topic.

[John83]

How amazing would that be i spent a few days in hospital 570 euro a night for a bed in a room with 3 others got a wrong diagnoisis sent home with all the wrong meds in agony for a week went back spent a few more days in there with docs guessing what was wrong!!
That's pretty much how it works. No one's invented a tricorder yet. Your symptoms probably matched 100+ conditions, so they treated you for the most likely one. 70% of the time they're right, 90% of those times the medicine works.

[mypost]

Fairly bored with the debate at this stage as it has been debated to death & I think everyone has made up their minds at this stage. Only decision left to decide to cast vote.

The reason there was a programme last night, was to buy the undecided vote. If you've made your decision, then it was to re-enforce your belief on either side.

Much more debate to come. :)

[pete]

I think the problem for RTE & other media organisations is the difficulty in finding sane people that they can allow on the airwaves for the No side. SF have elected TDs so they get included. Libertas are shaddy lot but I think the fact they are providing people for debates is why they get on radio and tv. RTE couldn't allow Coir nutters on tv. Some of the socialist groups possibly don't have the numbers to contribute in the debates?

[superfrank]

Your symptoms probably matched 100+ conditions, so they treated you for the most likely one. 70% of the time they're right, 90% of those times the medicine works.
So c. 63% of the time they cure you?

Does that not seem a bit low?

[Student Mullet]

So c. 63% of the time they cure you?

Does that not seem a bit low?
This is all off topic but you just have to take it or leave it.
A lot of illnesses don't have miracle cures.

[osarusan]

So c. 63% of the time they cure you?

Does that not seem a bit low?
I'd say that 63% of the time they cure you first time around, if not, the doctors will move on to the next likely symptom. Just going on John83's post, that would seem to be the next step.

Anyhow, will the Lisbon Treaty have any effect at all on hospital services?

[superfrank]

Anyhow, will the Lisbon Treaty have any effect at all on hospital services?
If the no side is to be believed, accepting the Treaty will open the way for privatisation of the health service.

However, Harney has already approved for public land next to hospitals to be used for private clinics. And there's also the Harney plan which is to be put into effect. Privatisation of the healt sector is already underway and the FF/PD coalition is clearly in favour of the US system of healthcare. All this will continue along whether or not the Treaty is passed.

[John83]

If the no side is to be believed, accepting the Treaty will open the way for privatisation of the health service.

However, Harney has already approved for public land next to hospitals to be used for private clinics. And there's also the Harney plan which is to be put into effect. Privatisation of the healt sector is already underway and the FF/PD coalition is clearly in favour of the US system of healthcare. All this will continue along whether or not the Treaty is passed.
I agree. Whatever your opinion on this (and I've yet to hear or read anyone who seemed genuinely enthusiastic about it, which seems odd), it's government policy, and nothing to do with the EU.

EDIT: And yes, osaruan has it right. They move on to the next most likely illness and/or run additional tests. It's a distressingly inexact science.

[anto1208]

I

Anyhow, will the Lisbon Treaty have any effect at all on hospital services?

Privatisation of the health service is an issue raised in the Lisbon treaty debate.

In my case the first night i was booked in as public cost 66 euro i got kicked out after 1 night on a trolley when the doc i waited 7 hours for him looked at me and said ill write you a letter. sent me home with all the wrong drugs, drugs that made me worse and drugs that did no good.


After a week of that i booked in as private i was kept in for 3 days had 6 different docs that came up with 3 different things that it could be eventually it sorted itself out with antibiotics and ive to go back in 4 weeks for a test to see what was going on . ( the hospital charged Vivas 570 euro a night as private )

Spot any difference in my two treatments ?

[John83]

Privatisation of the health service is an issue raised in the Lisbon treaty debate...
Spot any difference in my two treatments ?
Of course, and I sympathise with what was undoubtedly an unpleasant experience, but what does this have to do with Lisbon?

[osarusan]

Has anybody seen this?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7433480.stm

A selection of Irish voters giving their opinions on the Lisbon Treaty.

5 'yes' and 5 'no' voters.

[superfrank]

I just saw a brilliant piece on the Lisbon Treaty on Den TV. On news2day, they had a very simple explanation of the Treaty using a classroom of kids acting it out.

It may sound a bit silly but it was very well done andd might get across to the teens of the country. Pity they can't vote.

[anto1208]

Of course, and I sympathise with what was undoubtedly an unpleasant experience, but what does this have to do with Lisbon?

The No campain are saying that a yes vote will open the door for Private hospitals.

As private hospitals will reduce the numbers in public hospitals as the private beds can be used as public beds the care in the public service would also improve.


Ie Good for Ireland.

[John83]

The No campain are saying that a yes vote will open the door for Private hospitals.

As private hospitals will reduce the numbers in public hospitals as the private beds can be used as public beds the care in the public service would also improve.


Ie Good for Ireland.
I follow the reasoning, but not the assumption that Lisbon is either necessary for or conducive to private healthcare.

[GavinZac]

I follow the reasoning, but not the assumption that Lisbon is either necessary for or conducive to private healthcare.

The No campaign will have you believe that the EU as a body is anti-socialist, and that voting no to Lisbon is basically voting no to the EU in general. They don't particularly care what is in the treaty, or if they do, they've misread it. They will have you believe that this is a document drawn up by a bunch of CEOs and forced upon us, rather than a treaty signed by every member state by elected representatives from every state including from our own parties. That is where anto is coming from - he just doesnt see privatisation as a bad thing.

[NeilMcD]

Has anybody seen this?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7433480.stm

A selection of Irish voters giving their opinions on the Lisbon Treaty.

5 'yes' and 5 'no' voters.

We really are the ugliest race on earth.

[BohsPartisan]

The No campaign will have you believe that the EU as a body is anti-socialist, and that voting no to Lisbon is basically voting no to the EU in general. They don't particularly care what is in the treaty, or if they do, they've misread it. They will have you believe that this is a document drawn up by a bunch of CEOs and forced upon us, rather than a treaty signed by every member state by elected representatives from every state including from our own parties. That is where anto is coming from - he just doesnt see privatisation as a bad thing.

My last word on the subject (http://gripofhysteria.wordpress.com/2008/06/10/lisbon-non-cest-mal/)

[GavinZac]

My last word on the subject (http://gripofhysteria.wordpress.com/2008/06/10/lisbon-non-cest-mal/)

I'll tell you what, kudos on the name of your blog.

[BohsPartisan]

I'll tell you what, kudos on the name of your blog.

It refers to the modern world in general and perfectly sums up the media hysteria around the yes campaign!

[SMorgan]

The No campaign will have you believe that the EU as a body is anti-socialist, and that voting no to Lisbon is basically voting no to the EU in general. They don't particularly care what is in the treaty, or if they do, they've misread it. They will have you believe that this is a document drawn up by a bunch of CEOs and forced upon us, rather than a treaty signed by every member state by elected representatives from every state including from our own parties. That is where anto is coming from - he just doesnt see privatisation as a bad thing.

They see the Treaty as a deception, which is hardly surprising since the chief architect has said exactly that.

My advice, for what its worth, is be a Pro and Proud European, ignore the scaremongering from the supporters of the Treaty and Vote No.

Anybody care to call it? I am a No voter, but I reckon the Yes side will shade it. They have put a lot of effort in since an opinion poll put the No side ahead and they’ve probably done enough to get the support they need.

[BohsPartisan]

Impossible to call right now IMO.

[pete]

We had a straw poll at work last week & something like 7-8 Yes to 1 No & he seemed to be wavering. Italian guy gave small speech about needing a strong EU & Head of the company joked that he could take the afternoon off if he brought his soap box to Stephen Green :p

[BohsPartisan]

We had a straw poll at work last week & something like 7-8 Yes to 1 No & he seemed to be wavering.

Its pretty much the opposite in my place.

[mypost]

The Media last weekend: "The No side have the momentum, the Yes side are facing an uphill struggle"

Last night: "Suddenly, it's too close to call" :rolleyes:

Obviously the Yes side have put the effort in since last week, but so have the No side, and on almost every poll I've seen on websites in the last couple of weeks, including here, it has a very clear No vote. The mood on the ground is that the electorate are resisting the government's bullying tactics. Only a couple of weeks ago, the result was apparantly a "shoo-in", for the TD's, the Trade Unions, Farmers, Big Business, and their other Yes men. People are starting to understand what a Yes vote will mean, and they're not happy with it. It's vital they express their opinion on Thursday.

[SMorgan]

Today there is meant to be a media embargo on the referendum yet the Indo are running with a scare strory about how a No vote will lead to longer dole queue. Seems like another cheap shot and another scarestory from the Yes campaign.

I think this Government is doing a good enough job of lengthening the dole queues without the benefit of a No vote.

[Macy]

We had a straw poll at work last week & something like 7-8 Yes to 1 No & he seemed to be wavering.
Most in here are just absolutely bored with it at this stage, and don't seem to be bothering to vote.

I think it'll probably be a yes vote, the media has successfully manipulated it so Cowan and the yes side have had the last word all day yesterday (not that they focused on the actual treaty once). I guess then we'll see who was really lying if it is a Yes vote.

[Kingdom]

What does the turn out have to be in order to be legal? I don't know anyone who is going to vote, there seems to be great apathy towards it all.

[pete]

The mood on the ground is that the electorate are resisting the government's bullying tactics.

I would be interested to hear an example of government bullying. Political parties are suppose to have an opinion & are pretty much duty bound to take one side & campaign for that. It is hard to sell the Yes side with obvious direct advantages for this country but some of the No side have the liberty to lie about emotive issues to scare people (abortion, euthanasia, gay marraige, adoptions etc...).

[dahamsta]

I'd call the scaremongering - if you vote No, it will go bad for you - bullying. So are the tactics of the No camp, but that's now what you asked.

[Macy]

I would be interested to hear an example of government bullying. Political parties are suppose to have an opinion & are pretty much duty bound to take one side & campaign for that. It is hard to sell the Yes side with obvious direct advantages for this country but some of the No side have the liberty to lie about emotive issues to scare people (abortion, euthanasia, gay marraige, adoptions etc...).
Come off it pete, the Yes side have used the views of the loopers like COIR to tar the whole no side in the last few days - we've had the abortion stuff, libertas funding etc all this week from the Yes side (normally put to the Shinners or Socialist who clearly don't agree with that view). We've also had all "the sky will fall in" stuff from the yes side and we'll be thrown out of europe bull as well.

The only one's that have focussed on the actual treaty in the debates I've heard or seen have been the shinners and the socialists - joe higgins and especially Richard Boyd Barrett. Libertas have their moments, sometimes. Yes side didn't focus at all on the treaty.

[Dodge]

Today there is meant to be a media embargo on the referendum yet the Indo are running...
Its only a radio and TV ban.


Yes side didn't focus at all on the treaty.

None of them did. It boiled down to what scared you most. Not being able to sell anything to europe, or going to war with a (possibly gay) european army.

[anto1208]

My prediction is that as with most things people in Ireland get upset about and jump up and down promising us doom and gloom if we dont agree with them ( like the smooking ban ) is no matter which way it goes very little will change.

[kingdom hoop]

no matter which way it goes very little will change.

I think that's one thing that hasn't really been touched upon - the fact that the proposed alterations are actually being phased in between 2014 and 2017. As difficult as it is to decide how to vote (I think I'll see what mood I'm in in the booth) it seems even harder to make a decision on changes that, formally at least, won't manifest until six years down the line.


What does the turn out have to be in order to be legal?

Given that everyone knows about it and has equal opportunity to present themselves at the polling station I'd imagine there's no requirement for a quorum. I couldn't be certain on that though, or whether provision is made for exceptional circumstances like flooding say. Interesting. :)

[Macy]

Given that everyone knows about it and has equal opportunity to present themselves at the polling station I'd imagine there's no requirement for a quorum.
There isn't a minimum quorum, but a low turnout and a No vote will be used to justify going again. In fairness, a low turnout and a Yes would have the No side screaming for another vote on the basis of it not being a proper mandate, but without the power to do so.


I couldn't be certain on that though, or whether provision is made for exceptional circumstances like flooding say. Interesting. :)
Again, it'd depend on the outcome, imo.

[pete]

...going to war with a (possibly gay) european army.

That would please the peaceniks as won't be invading many countries with a gay army. :p

Reminds me of this book (http://www.jonronson.com/goats_04.html) :D

[BohsPartisan]

None of them did. It boiled down to what scared you most. Not being able to sell anything to europe, or going to war with a (possibly gay) european army.

Not sure about the gay element but article 27.3 does require us to increase our military capabilities so there is a militarisation aspect to it. There will be a European army, Sarkozy has outlined that as a plan for France's EU presidency and as part of the new EU with one foreign policy and one economic policy it will by default be our army too. I've outlined more than that directly applying articles of the treaty in other posts too.

[GavinZac]

Not sure about the gay element but article 27.3 does require us to increase our military capabilities so there is a militarisation aspect to it. There will be a European army, Sarkozy has outlined that as a plan for France's EU presidency and as part of the new EU with one foreign policy and one economic policy it will by default be our army too. I've outlined more than that directly applying articles of the treaty in other posts too.

Article 27.3 does not apply to the Republic of Ireland. The provisions previously made for us are not amended by this treaty. We no more have to militarise than we have to learn the Marseillaise. Also, states can group to have a their own common foreign policy if they like but it is not required and is in fact just a nod that they won't get chucked out of the EU if they do.

If this is your idea of directly applying articles of the treaty then you are severely misinformed.

[BohsPartisan]

“all member states shall undertake to progressively improve their military capabilities” We are not obliged to send the Irish army into any particular engagement but we are obliged to increase our military capability.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M89u1OMnJFA

[GavinZac]

“all member states shall undertake to progressively improve their military capabilities” We are not obliged to send the Irish army into any particular engagement but we are obliged to increase our military capability.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M89u1OMnJFA

They're hardly going to, Python-esque, put "all member states (except Ireland)" after every bloody concession we've gotten, are they? The piece that exempts us from these areas, and other exceptional pieces like the ones specific to islands like ourselves and the UK, are in seperate places in their own treaties.

We are, categorically, not required to improve our military capabilities.

I'd imagine there would be some political pressure applied in 100 years time when we've got the same 3 tanks and Chinamerica turn up on our door step with lasers... :D

[anto1208]

Now that the Lisbon treaty is nearly over with when is the vote on the Lisburn treaty ive been hearing about ?