LoI in Europe 2018

[mcgonigle]

The one who kept two two clean sheets in Europe this season?

If anyone knows a bad goalkeeper when they see one it's a Rovers troll

[White Horse]

Cork were so unlucky there.

[CorribsideSteve]

It’s awful how easy our teams concede goals in Europe

THAT, plus the perennial attitude of " What'll I do with the ball, um, am....., sure I don't know" followed by a 60 yard ball straight to the opposition.

[White Horse]

Have to feel sorry for the dozen or so Cork fans who made the trip.

[pineapple stu]

Refreshing interview with Beattie there. Not that it said anything we didn't know though.

Actually, the commentators and analysts in general have been very good this evening.

[ger121]

You look at Dudelange beating Legia over two legs and then you look at Cork. If I was a City fan I’d be pretty ****ed with how Caulfield approaches Europe. They made Rosenborg look like World Beaters. To not even score over 4 matches is abysmal.

[pineapple stu]

And a Rosenborg side who were knocked out by Celtic who were knocked out by AEK Athens, and who were bloody close to being knocked out by Valur.

Still think Cork need to look elsewhere manager-wise to progress from where they are. Nothing this evening came close to changing that view.

[bennocelt]

Not sure the point you make here. Valur are still in with a good shout of making rd4 - they look a decent side, since when do Irish clubs look down on a team like this. Dudelange won but that was a one off result, 10 men etc and Legia will still get through that tie. Trnava are an excellent side - have pace and quality that a LOI team can only dream of.

.

Sorry real ale, but that comment stuck out like a sore thumb:p

[Real ale Madrid]

Sorry real ale, but that comment stuck out like a sore thumb:p

How so?

[mcgonigle]

Didn't want to reflect until all was done and dusted for LOI sides. It was a disappointing year for the league no doubt. Derry and Rovers had good wins away from home but the home legs were awful. Rovers were too cautious in the first leg and showed too much respect. Not sure what Derry were at but I don't think Shiels has the ability to set a team up to win over two legs at that level.

Also didn't want to comment on Cork's result v Legia given they were a very good side when we played them. Unfortunately subsequent results have shown that they are a shadow of that side and it was a missed opportunity for Cork, again due to cautiousness and too much respect. Rosenborg similiar.

As for us we were expected to beat Tallinn and did but not as easy as I expected. After the first leg v Larnaca I was happy with the 0-0 as you could see they were technically superior. The second leg was a hammering, they were vastly superior and we made some uncharacteristic errors although I think that's doing Larnaca a disservice. They're result against Graz has given some comfort. I'll be accused of bias and I understandably am but I think this Larnaca side are far superior to the side that Cork faced.

The moral of the story might be for Irish sides to be braver but that's too simplistic. The reality is that we're far behind the level required to reach group stages and the players required do not exist in the league. Buying the best of the rest simply won't cut it for Europe. It'll be interesting to see if Dundalk, Cork and maybe Rovers look outside the league

[paul_oshea]

Caufield came out and says their pace and strength. Fair enough on the pace you cant really do much about that individual talent, but strength? Not in this day and age, no team shouldn't be getting let down on physicality. That was stuff of 10 years ago, in fact it was probably one of my first posts on this forum about being so far behind European counterparts in that area :D.

Another game, another goal. Oh no wait.

[pineapple stu]

On another note, we now know what Bohs need in order to qualify for the Youth League.

There are 6 ties in the CL play-off round. Videoton v AEK is the only irrelevant one. Bohs need three of the others to come up trumps -

Red Star Belgrade to beat Red Bull Salzburg
PSV Eindhoven to beat BATE Borisov
Dinamo Zagreb to beat Young Boys Bern
Benfica to beat PAOK
Dynamo Kyiv to beat Ajax

Tough ask, I think.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

On another note, we now know what Bohs need in order to qualify for the Youth League.

There are 6 ties in the CL play-off round. Videoton v AEK is the only irrelevant one. Bohs need three of the others to come up trumps -

Red Star Belgrade to beat Red Bull Salzburg
PSV Eindhoven to beat BATE Borisov
Dinamo Zagreb to beat Young Boys Bern
Benfica to beat PAOK
Dynamo Kyiv to beat Ajax

Tough ask, I think.
Middle 3 would be the ones you'd back if you were putting money on it, top could go either way, bottom seems unlikely.

[CorribsideSteve]

I remember Shels losing 5 nil on aggregate to Brondby back around early 00's. They had chances in both legs to score vital goals but ultimately got swatted aside comfortably with Brondby rarely getting out of 2nd gear. It was to be one of the first of many times where I thought, "if only the clubs were a bit better technically etc". Pats got a similar pasting from Odense BK around that era, maybe 05? , one of their players afterward said that the difference between the sides was 'light years'. Nothing has changed, and if anything, the distance from our League to those ones light years from us, is only growing bigger by the year. The way Cork went out last night was a rehash of how Shels lost those matches, all those years ago.

[pineapple stu]

I think that's a club thing to an extent, not necessarily something that's endemic to the league.

I remember three years ago when we played Slovan (granted, with ten men for an hour), the comments here and elsewhere were on how well we knocked the ball around and kept possession at times. Our best chance out there came at the end of a 23-pass move for example.

Now we ultimately lost 6-1 on aggregate (with three goals in the last ten minutes) because the part-time players were knackered, which shouldn't be an issue with the full-time teams. And of course Slovan were just better than us; particularly in UCD, they harried us and forced mistakes, which is what good teams do.

But if a First Division team can knock the ball around against better opposition with some success, then there's no excuse for Cork to be lumping it long or giving it away cheaply like they did last night, and in the other games this year.

[sbgawa]

I don't buy into all this negative stuff about the massive gap between our league and some of the other leagues.
Rovers should have gone through had Aaron Greene managed to hit the net as opposed to the post unchallenged from 5 yards
Derry won away (like Rovers) and were a goal away from going through.
Dundalk had a mare but you couldn't say it was a typical display

I know its all ifs and buts but depending on if you are a half glass full or empty person it is certainly not clear that the gap is either huge or increasing

[oriel]

I think above points are far, there was a good deal of bad luck in a lot of the performances this year in Europe. 3 away wins is usually good in most seasons but this only resulted in one tie win and that was expected.

Another angle to look back on, is asking if teams were happy with their performances, Dundalk yes at home to Larnaca but most definitely not away, (v Tallinn, Dlk expected to get through) Derry and Rovers as touched on above both won away but lost at home.

I think of the 4 performances by Cork, they can probably only be just about happy with one, home to Legia, not scoring in any of their 4 games will be the big disappointment, I'll counter this by saying ditto for Dundalk not scoring in both games v Larnaca.

Overall not a good season by our clubs, but not sure it's a massive cause for concern, learn from it, get better players in (if this is what it takes) and move on.

[Demesne Lad]

The Town made heavy going of beating Levadia Tallinn and didn't take their chances at home to Larnaca, who then strolled past Sturm Graz 7 - 0 on aggregate. S Kenny must have brooded, at least for a while, about good players leaving as free agents when Preston collected a six figure sum after 20 months for Daryl Horgan. While Irish fans continue to prioritize the English Premiership and Championship (and Celtic) LOI clubs won't hold on to their better players, and this summer's European results will remain the norm.

[EatYerGreens]

I don't buy into all this negative stuff about the massive gap between our league and some of the other leagues.
Rovers should have gone through had Aaron Greene managed to hit the net as opposed to the post unchallenged from 5 yards
Derry won away (like Rovers) and were a goal away from going through.
Dundalk had a mare but you couldn't say it was a typical display

I know its all ifs and buts but depending on if you are a half glass full or empty person it is certainly not clear that the gap is either huge or increasing

I think it's all about margins.

We did have a lot of bad luck this year. But it's becoming a regular thing to bemoan 'what ifs' re LOI clubs in Europe. It's no accident that better teams seem to be a lot luckier than teams who aren't as good.

So it may look like just minor things are the difference for us every year in Europe. But the key point is that if it's happening most years like that, then the gap must be a lot bigger than if you look at single games in isolation. We're clearly not doing as well in Europe now as we were even a few years ago. Because each team loses one or two of its best players and we completely lose that margin which could make our sides 'luckier' in Europe.

[CorribsideSteve]

Rovers should have gone through had Aaron Greene managed to hit the net as opposed to the post unchallenged from 5 yards

That's the thing though, it was a really bad miss. And not to single Rovers out, but the lack of finishing ability when it matters from our clubs in Europe is a large part of explaining why we are in the doldrums. Cork missed a few chances against Legia at home. Dundalk, although they played better 2nd half against Larnaca didn't look like scoring despite looking half threatening at times, and labored against Levadia. Derry's result in Minsk was very good, but a poor home performance. In my opinion, it's mental collapse under pressure in both defence and attack that costs us progression. Coaching has to be geared toward mentally strengthening our League's players.

[sparky12345678]

The reality is that we're far behind the level required to reach group stages and the players required do not exist in the league. Buying the best of the rest simply won't cut it for Europe. It'll be interesting to see if Dundalk, Cork and maybe Rovers look outside the league

It's mad that Dudelange beat Warsaw though. What does the luxembourg team have that Cork/Dundalk dont?

[Philosophizer]

It's mad that Dudelange beat Warsaw though. What does the luxembourg team have that Cork/Dundalk dont?

I think they've brought in something like 13 or 14 french and German players in the last coupl of years. So said Dan McDonnell on LOI weekly podcast anyway.

[pineapple stu]

Being German or French doesn't necessarily make you any good though.

Remember they still have 9 of the team that lost to UCD. Joubert, Malget, Stelvio, Turpel, Prempeh, Ibrahimovic, Schnell, Benzouien and Clayton. A tenth, da Mota, is still there but out on loan. 5 of those were on the pitch together in the away game against Legia.

[Longfordian]

So what you’re saying is UCD need to be guaranteed a European spot for the good of the league?

[pineapple stu]

Not seeing a downside anyway :)

(On a serious note, give UCD Cork's budget and we'd wipe the floor with them. But obviously Cork have earned their budget, which is all part of football)

[Philosophizer]

Being German or French doesn't necessarily make you any good though.
True, but if they've now got 5/6 new starting players from abroad they're obviously fairly good ones given their recent results.

Their geographical location and shared language must make it easier for them to bring in quality from the surrounding countries

[pineapple stu]

Possibly. I won't pretend to know how good they are, but looking at wikipedia, Kruska appears to be good - 100+ appearances for Dortmund by the age of 21, although he's gone downhill spectacularly since then (he's 31 now) and signed from Werder Bremen's reserves. That said, the third flight in Germany would be better than LoI, so there's one decent player anyway.

Kakoko signed from Arka Gdynia in the Polish top flight; played for them in Europe last year where they lost on away goals to Midtylland. He's a late bloomer with no real pedigree in his background though - Wohlen in the Swiss second tier, Homburg in the fourth tier, Mannheim in the German sixth tier. (I'm discounting his youth career with Bayern)

And they signed a Serbian with 19 caps from Metz, but he only came on as a late sub against Legia, I presume as he's only just signed.

So they're three good signings - though the likes of Damien Delaney should arguably compare.

Dudelange have a budget of about €2m per year - probably similar to Cork's? Yes, being in the centre of Europe gives them access to more players alright, but I don't think the above factors really explains the jump up in performances. Legia are a mess too, and we caught them on the hop, all of which helps.

But I think as well there has to be an element of underachieving from Cork - not just that they lost all four games without scoring a goal, but that they did so so tamely. It really was 90s stuff - an energetic start handily soaked up, and a killer punch delivered relatively early on from which they never recovered.

[EatYerGreens]

True, but if they've now got 5/6 new starting players from abroad they're obviously fairly good ones given their recent results.

Their geographical location and shared language must make it easier for them to bring in quality from the surrounding countries

If you're a French-speaking quality player, why would you want to play in Luxembourg rather than France though ? It would be like saying Northern Ireland can attract quality players from England because of a shared language

[pineapple stu]

For money? A job's a job. If you're offered more in Luxembourg (boosted by European money), why not take it?

Transport links between France and Luxembourg are a lot easier than between NI and England. There's also a decent population density, so more players to choose from. I don't think the comparison holds up much.

[ger121]

It's mad that Dudelange beat Warsaw though. What does the luxembourg team have that Cork/Dundalk dont?

I read somewhere they have an investor (his name escapes me) who has pumped in serious money over the last couple of seasons. Would explain how they are getting results against teams like Legia.

[pineapple stu]

On another note, we now know what Bohs need in order to qualify for the Youth League.

There are 6 ties in the CL play-off round. Videoton v AEK is the only irrelevant one. Bohs need three of the others to come up trumps -

Red Star Belgrade to beat Red Bull Salzburg
PSV Eindhoven to beat BATE Borisov
Dinamo Zagreb to beat Young Boys Bern
Benfica to beat PAOK
Dynamo Kyiv to beat Ajax

Tough ask, I think.
Not a great night for Bohs. 0-0 in Belgrade; Salzburg probably favourites to progress. 3-2 win for PSV in Borisov is a good result, though far from over. And Benfica 1-1 PAOK is disappointing given how much on top Benfica were in the first half.

Other two games on Wednesday.

[Ezeikial]

Stephen Kenny declaring his ambition to make group stages next year, if Dundalk are Champions League qualified


At Dundalk we are not at the level that we were at in 2016, but I think next year - if we continue to improve - we will be at better than that level. We would feel that next year we have a chance of getting to the group stages


https://twitter.com/RTEsoccer/status/1031974611758370816

[brendy_éire]

Stephen Kenny declaring his ambition to make group stages next year, if Dundalk are Champions League qualified

You can admire his ambition, but that's just not feasible really. With the new format, it's desperately difficult for someone from a country like ours to qualify.
I like positive talk from managers, but a bit of realism wouldn't go amiss. The EL group stages are entirely within Dundalk's reach.

[dundalkfc10]

You can admire his ambition, but that's just not feasible really. With the new format, it's desperately difficult for someone from a country like ours to qualify.
I like positive talk from managers, but a bit of realism wouldn't go amiss. The EL group stages are entirely within Dundalk's reach.

Did you listen to the full video? He was talking about the EL group stages.

[Ezeikial]

You can admire his ambition, but that's just not feasible really. With the new format, it's desperately difficult for someone from a country like ours to qualify.
I like positive talk from managers, but a bit of realism wouldn't go amiss. The EL group stages are entirely within Dundalk's reach.


While he has a burning ambition to make Champions League group stages, I suspect that it is probably EL group stages that he sees as a realistic target if Dundalk qualify as Champions this season.

[pineapple stu]

Not a great night for Bohs. 0-0 in Belgrade; Salzburg probably favourites to progress. 3-2 win for PSV in Borisov is a good result, though far from over. And Benfica 1-1 PAOK is disappointing given how much on top Benfica were in the first half.

Other two games on Wednesday.
Kyiv lost 3-1 away to Ajax, and Zagreb drew 1-1 away to Young Boys.

So neither a great result, though neither over as yet either

[bennocelt]

Heading to see Basel V Limassol tonight. Bit of a tour de force, St Jakob 4 times (3 euros, one cup game) in about two weeks or so, and that is not including league games that others have done!! Plus away games for some fans, I do wonder if these extra Euro games are overkill. Last game had an attendance of about 12,000, in a stadium of 40,000, and tonight there are so many complementary tickets floating about.........I do wonder how much some clubs are really making on these Euro games.
And its not if the games are even entertaining............


Also will head to the league game this weekend....in St Jakob again.:)

I yearn for the day a LOI gets to play in Basel. But before you scoff, Switzerland are tumbling down the co efficient table, 16 at the moment..............so it might be sooner than we think

[CorribsideSteve]

Suduva hold Celtic to a 1-1 at home. Very impressive, even if Celtic will win 6 nil in Parkhead

[pineapple stu]

Dudelange 1-0 Cluj! 25 to go; Turpel with the goal.

Long way to go yet, but a first Luxembourg side in the group stages would be remarkable. I think it's just caused the live stream to crash in fact.

Rosenborg 2-0 up inside 15 minutes against Shkendija

[pineapple stu]

2-0 Dudelange! Turpel with his second - which is two more than he managed against UCD :)

Rosenborg 3-0 up now.

What could have been for Cork...

[CorribsideSteve]

Shamrock Rovers became the first Irish side to qualify for the Europa League on this day in 2011. That goal Gary McCabe scored in the 1-1 home draw with Belgrade turned out to be crucial, they went out there with half a chance and the rest was history.

[holidaysong]

I see that NI have dropped into the bottom 4 (https://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/data/method5/crank2019.html) which will mean preliminary round for their Champions next year with the Champions of Kosovo, Andorra and San Marino.

Also, it's only a matter of time until Kosovo pass them.

[pineapple stu]

And, as I think El Pietro pointed out earlier in the thread, they lose a Europa League spot too

[EatYerGreens]

And, as I think El Pietro pointed out earlier in the thread, they lose a Europa League spot too

"And yee shall reap what yee sow", as their kinsfolk are want of saying.

[Poor Student]

I see that NI have dropped into the bottom 4 (https://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/data/method5/crank2019.html) which will mean preliminary round for their Champions next year with the Champions of Kosovo, Andorra and San Marino.

Also, it's only a matter of time until Kosovo pass them.

And we all know how much Irish League players love to take their holidays. Very real danger of whoever the champs are struggling to get beyond the preliminary tournament.

[ger121]

And we all know how much Irish League players love to take their holidays. Very real danger of whoever the champs are struggling to get beyond the preliminary tournament.

I watch a bit of the Irish League through highlights on bbc but beyond that I wouldn’t know a lot about the financial aspect of the League or other off field activities. Is it going backwards in terms of quality and people through through the turnstiles. I was always a support of an AIL but now I’d think that bar the odd year, none of them would make the top 4.

[pineapple stu]

Attendances are rising slowly but steadily apparently - www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn.htm

It's got decent attendances - away support in particular - for a small league.

In terms of player technique, I think it's miles behind the LoI. An awful lot of one-touch hoofball and an overemphasis on the physical side.

It's hard to know if the physical part would compromise for the lack of technique if the leagues were to merge or play more often

[seand]

I see that NI have dropped into the bottom 4 (https://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/data/method5/crank2019.html) which will mean preliminary round for their Champions next year with the Champions of Kosovo, Andorra and San Marino.

Also, it's only a matter of time until Kosovo pass them.

I think it'll take another year for that to happen- the number of clubs qualifying per country (and therefore the starting round for each representative) has to be known before the domestic season in question, so the drop in status is a year behind

[pineapple stu]

On another note, we now know what Bohs need in order to qualify for the Youth League.

There are 6 ties in the CL play-off round. Videoton v AEK is the only irrelevant one. Bohs need three of the others to come up trumps -

Red Star Belgrade to beat Red Bull Salzburg
PSV Eindhoven to beat BATE Borisov
Dinamo Zagreb to beat Young Boys Bern
Benfica to beat PAOK
Dynamo Kyiv to beat Ajax

Tough ask, I think.
So the two Dinamos are out. Bohs need three from three tomorrow to reach the Youth League.

[shep]

Bohs through??