Barstool facepalm

[ArdeeBhoy]

How could he check his facts? It's not like all the places you've resided in, are stored somewhere for all of us to access before we post something in reply to one of your posts.

Ok, well best to not make daft assumptions either...


Forgot there were no clubs in Northern Ireland.

Hmm, like most of them weren't remotely welcoming to anyone of a non-unionist persuasion back then...

Like I said in an earlier post, my folks wouldn't have gone anywhere near them, more into rugby & the horses, so had to make my own selective choices...
;)

[nigel-harps1954]

Rory McIlroy at Old Trafford today. Speaking to BT Sports he told of his father being a big Man City fan, but he started supporting Man United when he was younger because they were really successful at the time. It was pretty awful.

[Stuttgart88]

I've no interest in Rory McIlroy. I only follow my local golf team :)

[DannyInvincible]

I'm not defensive (what have I go to be defensive about?), I'm pi**ed off, because I think you've horribly represented the 'mindset' of LOI fans.

Firstly, you've appropriated Sullivinho's post from the eligibility rules thread and adapted it for this debate, so it reads like this: What is absolutely beyond doubt is no one should ever, ever have an issue supporting the League of Ireland. That is the axiom from which all further reasoning must proceed. I don't see anything on this thread or on this website to suggest that this is in any way the majority view of LOI fans, but you have no problem ascribing this mindset to us. And what kind of words did you associate with this mindset? Delusion. Repressed anger. Condescension. We have unhelpful attitudes. We apparently, generally speaking, view anybody who doesn't have the same mindset as imbecilic ignoramuses. We badger them to have them justify their non-attendance at LOI games.

Just getting a chance to respond properly now, but that's just a bizarre postful of angry, misdirected and over-protective nonsense. I'm surprised you seem to be letting what I can really only assume to be some inexplicable sense of enmity get the better of your usually cold and rational self. Have you got a chip on your shoulder over something? Not only are you being overly defensive (of "your" league and orthodoxy) and displaying a very delicate persecution complex (by blowing what I've said way out of proportion), you also seem to be imagining things by, in fact, completely misrepresenting me. I've not been attacking you at all. Why exactly are you polarising the discussion by erecting this false division between "we/us" (you and whoever else you believe thinks like you) and others (myself, apparently, and perhaps people you assume think differently from you because they "misunderstand")? I'm contributing to a discussion and offering my thoughts; in doing so, I have no intention of belittling anyone or suggesting I know it all. If my thoughts can add something positive; great. If not, I'll try have a re-think. I mean, many of the examples depicted in contributions to this thread have both amused me and filled me with despair too; I'm just saying that responding to them vindictively is of little benefit. I think it's a great shame that the broad football-following Irish public ignore the League of Ireland and I'd love if there was a widespread national pride in it, but they have to be convinced; not expected.

Living in Manchester for the past four years of my life has meant I'm somewhat out-of-the-loop with regard to goings-on back home, but I do consider myself a supporter of the league too. It's not a case of me versus League of Ireland supporters, from wherever you got that crazy impression, nor do you have dominion over who gets to consider themself an interested party and who doesn't. I feel daft having to say this (and I don't wish to overstate my commitment, because there are people who dedicate their lives to the league - and bloody good for them - whilst my ability to support in recent years has been limited and more latent due to my present circumstances), but I've invested plenty of my time and money in the league over the years and have been to over a dozen different grounds around the country following live games, so don't try cast me as "just another poster who doesn't know much about LOI, but has the arrogance to think [he knows] how to diagnose the problems and to fix them" and attempt to disqualify me from having a valid say here. At what point, in your opinion, might my "arrogance" constitute a legitimate point? I don't require a rubber stamp from you to validate my opinion, thank you very much.

I've not ascribed any mindset to League of Ireland fans generally, nor have I attempted to quantify how prevalent I think the discussed damaging mindset happens to be. I saw a very negative and spiteful antipathy exhibited in the thread by marinobohs and thought it worth challenging. Don't you think opinions like that are counter-productive? When I was being critical of that mindset, it should have been fairly obvious to anyone thinking clearly, and unburdened by a seeming petty grudge, that I was being critical of those who harbour such feelings rather than being critical of supporters of the league generally. Nowhere did I suggest it was a majority attitude. In fact, I even suggested that supporters of the league who catch other supporters of the league engaging in such negativity should pull the latter up on it. You're playing naive, however, if you're suggesting marinobohs is the only supporter of the League of Ireland who harbours such resentment as was displayed. Sure even Bonnie acknowledged that the existence of angry superiority complexes might be a bit more widespread; he implicitly (albeit vaguely) quantified it. That's it's tolerated can only be damaging, don't you think? Dodge has also stated his revulsion for the "whiny" attitude, so he too acknowledges its detrimental existence. Why single out my acknowledgment of it as somehow problematic and worthy of rebuke?


All of the above is so far removed what I am completely confident the vast vast majority of LOI fans are like. And as I said, I don't think there is anything on this website to explain the general image you portray of LOI fans. So yeah, I'm pi**ed off about it.

Well, direct your anger elsewhere. I wasn't painting everyone with the same brush. For some reason, you're the only one who's gotten touchy about what I've posted. If everyone else here thought I was having a go at League of Ireland supporters generally, might they not have been provoked into taking pot-shots at me too? You're out-of-order if you're ****ed off with me. Have I rubbed you up the wrong way or something? I don't think I'm being paranoid in saying I (and a few others) have noticed a familiar trend with you of late...


So, how to go about solving the problems? I don't think it misrepresents your argument to paraphrase it using Sullivinho's post again: What is absolutely beyond doubt is that everybody will be interested in LOI if it's advertised to them properly. That is the axiom from which all further reasoning must proceed.

Don't be silly. Of course that completely misrepresents my argument. I'm not that naive.


Now, I don't think this is any more true about LOI football than it is abour archaeology or Irish stew or anything else. But you do: There's a way to win people over. It just hasn't been successfully tried yet, evidently. In fact, you wonder if we've been trying hard enough: Has it really been tried en masse at all? No doubt, advertising is the way forward: There is a way to crack it. It'll just require a bit of imagination.

Your compact annotations are way off. Nevertheless, I do think people can be won over. Live football has serious mass appeal for humans all around the globe, so why not believe it can be the same in Ireland? I have faith in people and their ability to change. Evidently, you don't. And whether you like it or not, whatever methods have been tried to date to win people over haven't been broadly or nationally successful. Pointing that out isn't to denigrate the hard graft interested parties have put into promoting the league in their chosen way down through the years either. All I'm saying really is that there must be something to be done that hasn't been thought of yet to enhance wider appeal. That's kind of self-evident. I'm not arrogantly suggesting I have the answers, nor am I suggesting that advertising is the answer, but it's surely a surrender to resign oneself to a continuation of the present stagnancy. You'd give the false impression that all has been exhausted with there being little else to be tried. Are you really saying that? That there's nothing can be done? It's a very pessimistic outlook.

An open discussion - all perspectives considered - can be had on what's helpful and what's not in the long-term, surely? If certain things have been tried in the past and not worked, what's your issue with acknowledging the obvious reality that maybe a different tack be required? Why do you see it as a bad thing that someone with an interest like myself might try and contribute to such a discussion in complete good faith? Why even might it be a bad thing for an "outsider" to offer an opinion from outside the box? Insider efforts are evidently struggling, so what harm might an unorthodox view pose? Once again, that's not to say that imaginative and inventive strategies haven't been employed by some who've gone to great lengths trying to think up novel ways of bringing more people through the turnstiles, but there's evidently something missing. I wouldn't for a minute want to trivialise or suggest it'll be easy, and if you think I phrased an earlier comment about imagination rather casually, there was no dismissive or arrogant intent involved whatsoever. For a start, the FAI could draw up a solid promotion and development plan with a set time-frame in mind. I know GAA is an institutional favourite amongst Ireland's political class, but what about governmental lobbying for greater support and building more influential political connections? Social media campaigns, exploiting celebrity links... I dunno; I'm not telling anyone what they should or shouldn't be doing, nor am I necessarily saying things haven't been tried and shunned, but just throwing out a few ideas. If you'd rather not hear them, ignore me. The popularity of football exploded in the US over the past few months, for example. The World Cup played a big role in that, sure, but something had to first render it relevant to huge swathes of Americans who previously mightn't even have known there was another version of football played with a round ball.

[DannyInvincible]

Think about that last line Danny. Think about how glibly you dismiss the hard work done by LOI clubs over the years. You think they haven't spent hours racking their brains, thinking about the best ways to get people in the gates? That they haven't tried everything they can think of? Trying their own ideas, or mimicked stuff that worked elsewhere? But all these years, none of them ever realised that it'll just require a bit of imagination.

Give over. All I've done is acknowledge the reality that whatever methods have already been tried haven't really succeeded in achieving their stated aims. Even those dedicating their hard graft would admit that. It's the unfortunate truth. I'm not pointing it out in order to mock. I would never "glibly dismiss" the hard work done by clubs and other supporters over the years, so please don't accuse me of that. The FAI were at the forefront of my mind when I wrote about imagination. Having English Premier League supporters running the FAI can't be of much help either, of course. Anyhow, just because someone thinks they're doing right for something, it doesn't render them infallible or beyond criticism either, nor does it necessarily mean that what they're doing is actually proving beneficial. It's healthy to challenge orthodox opinions and received wisdom in a constructive way. Ultimately, we all want a thriving league and want to find the best way of achieving that. For some unknown reason, however, it appears you just want to shut up shop and limit the discussion to only those you assume to be interested and in the know.


I look at it in terms of who has a good enough understanding of LOI to be familiar with the problems it faces, and knowledge of the past attempts to remedy these problems. And when you portray LOI fans as you have above, dismiss their hard work as you have above, and offer up the analogy you offered earlier about archaeology, I'm not convinced at all by these arguments.

I wasn't comparing League of Ireland football to an archaeology dig in Monaghan, just in case that's what you're thinking. I simply plucked an obscure and irrelevant pastime out of my head to demonstrate how senseless and inappropriate it is to assume that a non-supporter of the League of Ireland would require an "excuse" to explain his or her non-attendance at a League of Ireland game. No archaeology digger would ever assume that somebody with no interest in archaeology digging would require an "excuse" in order to explain his or her non-participation in a voluntary archaeology dig.


Whoah! That is a major over analysis of the point I was trying to make. I have never and will never be openly dismissive to people who either dismiss LoI outright or those who excuse their absence. There is no interrogation as to why they would not consider their return to Oriel Park on an occasion. This information is volunteered more often than not. The see a scarf, jersey, matchday programme and come over to find out about the game. My honest opinion of the match is given and practically without fail a series of reasons (or in my opinion excuses) get rolled out as to why they were not at the game themselves. The most frustrating one for me is the i quit during the bad times and i dont want to be a glory hunter type of stuff. My own reply is generally along the lines of who would notice, who would care, give it a chance again and if there is no longer any appeal for the local live game so be it - but dont rule it out because a different era caused disillusionment.

I did qualify my analysis as possible nit-picking and I hate to harp on about it, but I fear you've missed my point, unless you're just being stubborn. :p It was the usage of the word "excuse" (which you've continued to use) that I thought betrayed an imposed expectation upon these others you mentioned; as if the natural order of things required that they be attending games and, if not, then they must be excusing their absence. If you perceive them to be coming up with excuses, then there must, in your mind, be some obligation for them from which you think they're unduly excusing themselves. Don't you acknowledge how inappropriate using such a term is in the context of someone who has no obligation to be participating in what it is you think they're excusing themselves from? Their reason, if a conscious or non-passive one at all, would only be an excuse if they had a prior duty to attend. To be fair, I don't sense you're actively or intentionally going out of your way to criticise non-supporters, nor am I remotely questioning your evident good will, but I think it's important to acknowledge the connotations of the language we use in relation to non-supporters if trying or hoping to win them over.

[Nesta99]

I did qualify my analysis as possible nit-picking and I hate to harp on about it, but I fear you've missed my point, unless you're just being stubborn. :p It was the usage of the word "excuse" (which you've continued to use) that I thought betrayed an imposed expectation upon these others you mentioned; as if the natural order of things required that they be attending games and, if not, then they must be excusing their absence. If you perceive them to be coming up with excuses, then there must, in your mind, be some obligation for them from which you think they're unduly excusing themselves. Don't you acknowledge how inappropriate using such a term is in the context of someone who has no obligation to be participating in what it is you think they're excusing themselves from? Their reason, if a conscious or non-passive one at all, would only be an excuse if they had a prior duty to attend. To be fair, I don't sense you're actively or intentionally going out of your way to criticise non-supporters, nor am I remotely questioning your evident good will, but I think it's important to acknowledge the connotations of the language we use in relation to non-supporters if trying or hoping to win them over.

I didnt miss the point and I can be fussy enough in relation to semantics myself...good job I cant spell! Yes using the term 'excuse' implies some sort of obligation, but i am not the one that would provide multiple 'reasons' for why I was not at the match. Therefore the person who is rolling out the 'reasons' themselves must feel some sort of obligation, duty or even guilt for why they chose not to go to games anymore. Otherwise they would simply offer thanks for the run down of the match and off back to their pint. In my opinion former active supporters of a club who share a passion for the club albeit during a different era probably do feel some sort of obligation to support the club by some means. I know I would! If i wasnt in Oriel for 30 years either by choice or by circumstances I am still likely to support and love the club and a part of me would probably still feel that I should offer more effort to support Dundalk by whatever means, financial or brainwashing the kids or something. It is not what is in my mind that causes intended or otherwise the use of terminoligy that is judgemental, it is my observation that many are making excuses to themsleves and try to justify their absence. The reality is that I care about attendences so I cant say that I dont wish these former fans would return and experience the enjoyment so many of us are getting with the current team. I do recognise though that it would be counter productive to patronise these people, be dismissive, insulting or even to plead desperately for their return. They will do want they want and indeed there are some old faces starting to make a reappearance in their own time. I dont like the elite fan attitude of some LoI fans. But as somone who attends LoI I do feel in a better position to comment and criticise LoI and will do so rather than the never been naysayers. It is this type of naysayer that ive seen most often convert to Loi fanatic - as they take the **** out of LoI I say sure you shall have a good old chuckle if ye come to the game, nothing to lose and get a few beers in next thing they're showing of a season ticket.

I dont even know if i understand this post myself lol

[DannyInvincible]

Ah, no, I understand. You've explained perfectly well that the obligation or expectation isn't something that emanates from you. Rather, the people you mention rhyming off their reasons, entirely voluntarily and unprompted by yourself, give the impression that they're explaining away some personal sense of guilt. That's fair enough; nobody else is to blame for that really. It's when "excuse" is used to imply the imposition of some obligation upon the non-supporter from the supporter, I take issue because it can only breed disdain, but that's a different scenario from the one you've explained.

[Nesta99]

and yes I was being stubborn!

[Straightstory]

'After being starved of football all summer.... the English Premier League starts tomorrow...'

http://www.hotpress.com/Sinead-OConnor/news/Free-Music-Friday/11998584.html

You'd think Hot Press, being an Irish magazine, might have noticed that there's a football league in Ireland, but apparently not.

[poster]

'After being starved of football all summer.... the English Premier League starts tomorrow...'

http://www.hotpress.com/Sinead-OConnor/news/Free-Music-Friday/11998584.html

You'd think Hot Press, being an Irish magazine, might have noticed that there's a football league in Ireland, but apparently not.

Isn't Stuart Clarke a big LOI (Pat's?) fan? Is he still editor of HP?

[Charlie Darwin]

Isn't Stuart Clarke a big LOI (Pat's?) fan? Is he still editor of HP?
Bohs, and he's still deputy editor, yeah, but those kind of fluff pieces are written by unpaid interns. You know the type, wealthy parents, etc. They tend not to be LOI fans.

[Ezeikial]

Bohs, and he's still deputy editor, yeah, but those kind of fluff pieces are written by unpaid interns. You know the type, wealthy parents, etc. They tend not to be LOI fans.

Stereotyping?

You do not have to have wealthy parents to be an unpaid intern.

The country is awash with unpaid and low paid (social welfare + €50) interns - your blithe comment does them a disservice

[Charlie Darwin]

Stereotyping?

You do not have to have wealthy parents to be an unpaid intern.

The country is awash with unpaid and low paid (social welfare + €50) interns - your blithe comment does them a disservice
OK, I'll change it somewhat. I know enough of them to know background they tend to be from.

[osarusan]

Danny, you've speculated that I have some personal grudge or enmity against you, that you've rubbed me up the wrong way somehow. It's not the case at all. I don't know you from Adam, I'm just commenting on what I see in your posts.

This is important, because you've also made efforts to portray me as a person that sees things as 'us' (LOI fans) and 'them' (non-LOI fans). You are trying to paint an image of me as somebody who is not only happy to summarily dismiss the opinions of 'outsiders' and suggest their opinions are invalid, but seeks to silence them somehow, to prevent non-LOI fans from getting involved in LOI-related discussion. This simply isn't true. I explained this already:



Certainly you're entitled to your opinion, and I would never suggest otherwise. I am also sure that you're not someone who wishes to disparage the league or cause it harm, of course not.

I'm not trying to frame you as an outsider. I don't see it like that. I look at it in terms of who has a good enough understanding of LOI to be familiar with the problems it faces, and knowledge of the past attempts to remedy these problems. And when you portray LOI fans as you have above, dismiss their hard work as you have above, and offer up the analogy you offered earlier about archaeology, I'm not convinced at all by these arguments.

The simple fact is that lots of people talk about the LOI and what is wrong with it, and why, and how to 'fix' it (not that you have done all these things), and when I read or listen to their comments, I'll either come to the conclusion that they know what they're talking about, or the conclusion that they don't really know what they're talking about.

When I read your comments about some LOI fans being delusional, full of repressed anger and hatred, etc, and your comments about a bit of imagination being the missing link so far (worded 'slightly carelessly'? Damn right it was), and you offer an unfair analogy about a similar lack of interest in archaeology, and your notion that people are 'badgered' over their non-attendance, I think to myself, this guy isn't really all that familiar with the LOI.

It's not about anything other than the some of the content of your posts.

[Stuttgart88]

I'm a bit confused about the concern with the "how to fix it" disdain. Is it the wording or the principle of outsiders (my word here, probably not the best but you know what I mean) offering advice or opinions?

If the phrase "fix it" was replaced by "how to attract larger crowds / new customers / more financial investment / players who'd otherwise go to English lower leagues" would that be met with more enthusiasm?

[Charlie Darwin]

I'm a bit confused about the concern with the "how to fix it" disdain. Is it the wording or the principle of outsiders (my word here, probably not the best but you know what I mean) offering advice or opinions?

If the phrase "fix it" was replaced by "how to attract larger crowds / new customers / more financial investment / players who'd otherwise go to English lower leagues" would that be met with more enthusiasm?
It's the fact the people proposing the fixes rarely have any real interest in the outcome. It's the equivalent of some yank walking up to you in the pub in London and telling you all about what the Irish people should do to fix the political and economic mess we're in before walking away smugly satisfied that his plan to "vote for somebody else" and renege on the bank debt is the kind of insightful analysis that you weren't capable of coming up with yourself.

[DannyInvincible]

Danny, you've speculated that I have some personal grudge or enmity against you, that you've rubbed me up the wrong way somehow. It's not the case at all. I don't know you from Adam, I'm just commenting on what I see in your posts.

Fair enough. Although, dealing with the actual content of my posts rather than with what you angrily assume to be the meaning behind them is the best way of demonstrating that. I still feel you're misrepresenting me, so I'll try re-clarify.


When I read your comments about some LOI fans being delusional, full of repressed anger and hatred, etc, and your comments about a bit of imagination being the missing link so far (worded 'slightly carelessly'? Damn right it was), and you offer an unfair analogy about a similar lack of interest in archaeology, and your notion that people are 'badgered' over their non-attendance, I think to myself, this guy isn't really all that familiar with the LOI.

But some (and I never said all were, nor did I even suggest it was a majority) are delusional and full of repressed anger and hatred. How can you deny that? marinobohs' post was a perfect example of it. I didn't even indicate what I perceived its prevalence to be. A LOI supporter admitting that there are unhelpful attitudes amongst certain LOI supporters doesn't have to be a contradiction, nor does such an admission or acknowledgment amount to an attack on the LOI and LOI supporters generally. Are you afraid to acknowledge that or something?

I had said "rather casually" and I don't think I suggested it was the missing link. If that's how you interpreted it, well, I certainly didn't mean it to come across like that. I'm well aware that there are plenty of obstacles - things over which interested parties have much less control than their own imaginations - facing those who are already putting their heads into overdrive to try and attract greater interest.

What's unfair about the archaeology digging analogy exactly? If the LOI is as irrelvant to someone as archaeology digging, why would it be in any way appropriate to expect their interest or to expect an excuse if interest was lacking? It was within that context that I raised the analogy; one under which I thought an expectation upon non-supporters was being expressed.

When I used the word "badgered", it was as part of my analogy to try and explain how such a mindset of expectation or assumed obligation might seem inappropriate and unusual from another perspective. I wasn't explicitly accusing nesta99 of going round badgering people down the pub in Dundalk.

[Stuttgart88]

Isn't Stuart Clarke a big LOI (Pat's?) fan? Is he still editor of HP?Liam Mackey used to edit HP. Liam and HP were very supportive of the KRAM campaign in 1987. Liam was MC at a public debate on the issue at Libery Hall (I think) which I attended. Liam would be outraged by that remark!

[Stuttgart88]

It's the fact the people proposing the fixes rarely have any real interest in the outcome. It's the equivalent of some yank walking up to you in the pub in London and telling you all about what the Irish people should do to fix the political and economic mess we're in before walking away smugly satisfied that his plan to "vote for somebody else" and renege on the bank debt is the kind of insightful analysis that you weren't capable of coming up with yourself.I'd say Danny has an interest in the outcome though.

[Charlie Darwin]

I'd say Danny has an interest in the outcome though.
He's not an outsider either, though. The disdain is towards people who don't take any active interest in the league or make an effort to attend games yet make it their duty to offer solutions, which any LOI supporter could tell you tend to be far more opinionated than active fans.

[sullanefc]

J. H. Christ. Reading some of the analysis here on the slagging of "barstoolers" by LOI fans is waaay too deep.

For as long as I can remember, football fans have been insulting other football fans on who they support.

1. Man City fans at the moment will get slagged as being former Blackburn fans back in the day and for being glory hunters.

2. Man Utd fans will be slagged for being not from Manchester.

3. Liverpool fans will be slagged for being constantly deluded about their teams chances of winning the league.

4. Celtic/Derry fans will get slagged for being Brits and not Irish.

5. Clubs from outside Dublin will be called culchies and teams from Dublin will be called heroin addicted, thieving scumbags.

Slagging/insulting is part of football. So if a "barstooler" gets insulted by a LOI fan for following a foreign team and not an Irish team, and he takes this to heart, then maybe he should stop following football. If it's his reason for not going to matches, then he needs to develop a thicker skin as a football fan. ( I'd assume it was just an excuse if someone told me they didn't go to LOI because of their perception of LOI fans having superiority complexes).

Similarly LOI fans get insulted when told that the standard is crap.

Some people who take this issue way too seriously need to learn to ignore the insults if they can't take it and lighten up a bit IMO.

[DannyInvincible]

J. H. Christ. Reading some of the analysis here on the slagging of "barstoolers" by LOI fans is waaay too deep.

...

Some people who take this issue way too seriously need to learn to ignore the insults if they can't take it and lighten up a bit IMO.

The insults don't apply to me, so it's not as if I'm posting from the "thin-skinned" perspective of being provoked or offended. We're discussing what might be conducive to ensuring more of the Irish football-following public can or will relate to the League of Ireland. I think it's an important matter that merits deep analysis. I'm not saying I have all the answers - osarusan has all of those, I believe :p - but it can't be a bad thing to have at least a discussion about it. Inter-club rivalry operates via a different dynamic altogether. For example, Manchester City fans slagging United fans for not being from Manchester is an intentional means of winding the United faithful up; it's a way for City fans to reassure themselves they're "more authentic" than their "glory-hunting" out-of-city counterparts. As far as I know, City fans generally have no interest in trying to convince such United supporters that City is actually the club for them. They want nothing to do with them. They just use them as ego boosters. On the other hand, most LOI fans would love to see the general Irish public get behind the league. Throwing insults and polarising potential partners would thus be counter-productive, surely?


Slagging/insulting is part of football. So if a "barstooler" gets insulted by a LOI fan for following a foreign team and not an Irish team, and he takes this to heart, then maybe he should stop following football. If it's his reason for not going to matches, then he needs to develop a thicker skin as a football fan. ( I'd assume it was just an excuse if someone told me they didn't go to LOI because of their perception of LOI fans having superiority complexes).

Similarly LOI fans get insulted when told that the standard is crap.

So are you saying that maintaining the present degree of polarised entrenchment is the way it always should be just because that's the way it is? And it's all their fault anyway for being thin-skinned? They should just take it on the chin, start being thick-skinned and take an interest in the League of Ireland for a change?...

[sullanefc]

To be honest, I don't think there is anything we can "say" that will convince our "barstooling counterparts" to come to matches IMO. If they don't get the buzz of live football regardless of meagre facilities (for the most part) watching lower quality football (compared to epl) then they are unlikely to become regulars despite anything we say IMO.

What may bring them might be prem league standard stadia, with bigger crowds and a higher standard of football, maybe. And even then, maybe a lot of them would still prefer to watch it in front of a TV as it is less hassle. Can't see any of that happening soon though.

For now though, slagging them makes ourselves feel "more authentic" and them as being "glory hunters" like your city-united example above. This is just football supporter one upmanship IMO.

[DannyInvincible]

I don't doubt that it might feel like banging ones head against a brick wall, but it's in response to pessimistic fatalism like that that I say something extra is required, be it imagination or whatever. "Imagination" is a cover-all term for what evidently hasn't been thought of or tried yet. That's not me trivialising the seriousness and difficulty of the task, nor is it me telling responsible parties how they should be invest their time and money, but it surely can't be the case that there's simply nothing to be done. I'm talking a long-term plan; not just some magical soundbite that'll be sure to win over even the most hardcore anti-LOIer in seconds.

[ger121]

Reading this thread the last few days is really giving me a headache. Maybe take it to the PM lads

[DannyInvincible]

Reading this thread the last few days is really giving me a headache. Maybe take it to the PM lads

I don't think what I'm saying is all that novel or revelatory, to be honest. It's pretty much stating what has obviously been the case for years - it's been well discussed on here - but, for some reason, someone took issue with a comment I'd made about imagination being evidently lacking - the FAI have led the way on that sorry front - and then misrepresented me. Is it broadly denied that more could be done to promote the league, by the FAI especially? Of course they could do more. LOI supporters have been saying that for years.

[ger121]

I don't think what I'm saying is all that novel or revelatory, to be honest. It's pretty much stating what has obviously been the case for years - it's been well discussed on here - but, for some reason, someone took issue with a comment I'd made about imagination being evidently lacking - the FAI have led the way on that sorry front - and then misrepresented me. Is it broadly denied that more could be done to promote the league, by the FAI especially? Of course they could do more. LOI supporters have been saying that for years.

Danny, I don't really have issue with what you're saying but it's the length of the replies, they're like mini novels! I'm not aiming this just at you but at a few posters on here. I think once you get into a heated debate that needs several long responses, I think it's time to go to the PM option and not clutter up threads.

[BonnieShels]

I don't think what I'm saying is all that novel or revelatory, to be honest.

Novella maybe...

[EAFC_rdfl]

Danny, I don't really have issue with what you're saying but it's the length of the replies, they're like mini novels! I'm not aiming this just at you but at a few posters on here. I think once you get into a heated debate that needs several long responses, I think it's time to go to the PM option and not clutter up threads.
Couldn't agree more - I haven't read any of the long winded comments on the last few pages here.

[DannyInvincible]

Danny, I don't really have issue with what you're saying but it's the length of the replies, they're like mini novels! I'm not aiming this just at you but at a few posters on here. I think once you get into a heated debate that needs several long responses, I think it's time to go to the PM option and not clutter up threads.

Alright, alright. Back on topic; will this (http://balls.ie/football/nutter-took-love-man-united-utterly-ridiculous-levels/) keep you happy? :p

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/poguemahone85/manutdfan_zpsef8064c8.png

I'd imagine even the most ardent Irish Manchester United fan might find the evidently-extreme hypnotising influence of such commodity fetishism scary!

[osarusan]

but, for some reason, someone took issue with a comment I'd made about imagination being evidently lacking - the FAI have led the way on that sorry front - and then misrepresented me.Ok, I'm back from my holidays, so let's start with this.

On the issue of the prevalence of the mindset you ascribe to some LOI fans, you in post 857 you paraphrased some opinions and said that 'they're all unhelpful attitudes.' You also said you were 'speaking generally' when you said these fans should stop assuming non-LOI fans were 'imbecilic ignoramuses.' You say you don't think it's a majority of fans at all, fair enough, although it is clearly more than just a response to MarinoBohs, as you later suggested. Can you tell me how prevalent you think it is?

On the issue of your comment about advertising just needing a bit of imagination, if that was directed at the FAI only, then fair enough, but it was phrased 'rather casually' indeed (and you continued to argue that even if you'd meant it in the way I interpreted it, it wouldn't have been wrong).

On the issue of your analogy about archaeology, you created this analogy after reading Nesta99 talk about the use of the word 'excuse'. You assumed that he had been asking people to justify their non-attendance, but it turns out that he hadn't. (He clarified in post 887 that there was no interrogation, but you still told him he was missing the point). So your analogy has fans of a particular activity badgering others who have no interest in that activity as to why they don't participate in that activity. You may not have explicitly accused Nesta99 of badgering people, but it is clear from your post that you imply there are some LOI fans out there badgering people over their non-attendance. Why make it part of the analogy regarding an 'unhelpful attitude' otherwise? You assumed all this from the word 'excuse', and even when the context was made clear to you, you still insist the analogy is valid. But it isn't.

So, in post 922, you are still going on about 'the present degree of polarised entrenchment'. Could you let me know what that degree is. Just how prevalent are these fans with the mindset of assuming non-LOI fans are imbeciles, are deluded (I saw no delusion in MarinoBohs post - could you point it out please), and badger non-LOI fans?

You ask me if these attitudes do not exist, and are not harmful. In my opinion, these attitudes exist in such tiny numbers as to have no harmful effects. Again, the people being insulted, in the vast majority of cases, are those who have dismissed the league without rational reason. They are not 'potential partners'. And, to use an argument you're familiar with, anybody who would be insulted by these comments would have to be very precious indeed.

[bennocelt]

Ok, I'm back from my holidays, so let's start with this.



Ah jeez Osarusan just when we had it nipped in the bud.........:)

[DannyInvincible]

Ok, I'm back from my holidays, so let's start with this.

Ho hum... I'd really have rathered this not be dragged out - I'm not sure why you're so determined to do so - as it seems to be grating others who'd prefer we made private our exchanges, but, as you persist with misrepresenting me, you're kind of compelling me to publicly defend myself yet again. You're looking for something that simply isn't there. To be very clear, I'm a supporter/defender of the league; not a detractor.


On the issue of the prevalence of the mindset you ascribe to some LOI fans, you in post 857 you paraphrased some opinions and said that 'they're all unhelpful attitudes.'

And they are, aren't they? marinobohs expressed angry supremacist sentiment (that being indicative of a superiority complex; not superiority in a racial sense), which I paraphrased, and Bonnie appeared to suggest its wider prevalence with a collective "we". Now, I don't want to get Bonnie into trouble with you too as he's a civil and thoughtful poster with a sense of anger that is borne out of much consideration and deep frustration, but why are you singling me out here as if I've made some revelatory claim about negative or vindictive attitudes harboured by some LOI fans? What I've said has been pretty conservative by this board's standards. Even Dodge, who you know knows his stuff, condemned the "whiny" attitude. He expressed much the same sentiment as I did in stating: "Fans of LOI clubs constantly moaning about being ignored/dismissed does no good. Whining rarely makes people think something is fun." He seems to think of it as potentially harmful too, so why the particular gripe and double standard when I happen to offer the same opinion based on shared or similar observations?


You also said you were 'speaking generally' when you said these fans should stop assuming non-LOI fans were 'imbecilic ignoramuses.' You say you don't think it's a majority of fans at all, fair enough, although it is clearly more than just a response to MarinoBohs, as you later suggested. Can you tell me how prevalent you think it is?

You're tying two paragraphs-apart lines together there to give a completely false impression of what I've said. You've completely misinterpreted my having spoken "rather generally for a moment" on the issue of taking responsibility. When I said I was speaking generally there, I was talking of the psychology of humanity or society as a whole; as in, explaining the important psychological distinctions for humans collectively between assuming responsibility and shirking responsibility, and the respective repercussions of those two options. I wasn't even speaking specifically of football supporters, never mind supporters of the LOI, in illustrating the broader, or general, nature of psychologically accepting or denying responsibility.

When I later reassured Jofspring that I was "speaking generally", it was no more than an innocent or neutral expression to make a direct distinction from speaking personally so he'd know I wasn't referring to him specifically, despite the fact I was responding to his quoted comment. Perhaps "speaking non-personally" would have been a better way to phrase it, but once again, I wasn't trying to tarnish LOI fans generally as I wasn't referring to LOI fans en masse. It was just an expression and applied to whomever it generally concerned; not necessarily all, or a majority of, LOI fans. And I thought I'd been nitpicking...

I couldn't tell you exactly how prevalent it is, but it is real (as evidenced on this very thread), and, crucially, oft-tolerated. It does seem to creep up now and again. The prevalence of serious loathing and animus is in the minority - most LOI fans are good-natured about it if they do rib their bar-stooling counterparts - but why sweep the former under the carpet by shifting the focus onto what I've said, as if my opinion is actually the problem? Why not have spent your energy pulling up those guilty of malice instead of cherry-picking comments I've made and regurgitating them in decontextualised fashion in order to divert attention away from the real issue? Not that I want to turn this into a witch-hunt - I'm not out to get anyone - but I'm just pointing out the utter absurdity of your over-reaction.

I challenged marinobohs and then others got embroiled in the conversation so I ended up explaining what I felt were the potentially-damaging repercussions of such a mindset (to the aspirations for widespread national support that most LOI supporters share) without any indication as to how widespread I thought the mindset was. The discussion might have since snowballed if it has become "more than just a response" to marinobohs, but I haven't been on some moral crusade to whip LOI fans generally into line. :rolleyes:


On the issue of your comment about advertising just needing a bit of imagination, if that was directed at the FAI only, then fair enough, but it was phrased 'rather casually' indeed (and you continued to argue that even if you'd meant it in the way I interpreted it, it wouldn't have been wrong).

On clubs, I have great respect for those putting in the time/finance and struggling along, or just about surviving. If those running clubs have taken the wrong path or gone off the rails at times down through the years, at least their hearts were in the right place in spite of some reckless risk-taking. The only reason I say imagination might be evidently lacking here is because I do think something can be done to win people over. I never used the word "advertising" - you did - so it isn't correct to portray it as if I've suggested better advertising is the solitary solution to the exclusion of all other possible ideas. Nevertheless, human history shows you can convince mass swathes of people of the merits of virtually anything, even if otherwise seemingly abhorrent or harmful. Not that the LOI is seemingly abhorrent and harmful - before you nitpick again - but you get my drift; people can be won over to an idea. Evidently, whatever that elusive thing is that can win the Irish public over to the LOI has not been thought of or tried yet, for if it were, there would be broad interest amongst the Irish public. It sounds almost tautological, but that's all I mean by claims of imagination being lacking. That funds are tight for clubs only makes things more difficult; it makes promotional investment very tough and long-term planning practically impossible. Clubs are compelled by circumstance to exist in the immediate short term.

As for the mismanaging and historically-amateurish FAI, the great protectors of our game, I think they've neglected the league and have their priorities confused. You'd like to think talent and wealth would flow upwards through a recognisable pyramid rather than trickle downwards, but Ireland doesn't even have such an infrastructure of layered and connected support to bolster the game from grassroots to league to international level. With a bit of initiative and foresight, the FAI might realise that a stronger league that does more than struggle to just about sustain itself would be broadly advantageous; being ultimately lucrative and profitable in the long run. Well, I'm sure they do realise this already but maintaining the status quo can be very cosy. The FAI cannot sustain themselves through disproportionate reliance and focus on the finite cash cow that is the the men's senior international team. If greater attention was devoted elsewhere, they might see us producing full squads domestically rather than having to piggyback off British academies' lucky Irish and those eligible for us through the "granny rule". The FAI can't keep relying on the UK to produce our international players if they want us to keep qualifying for major finals and want to keep the punters happy (and spending). England and Scotland can only just about produce challenging sides for themselves. Whilst clubs are cash-strapped, the FAI have the capability to promote and invest, yet are utterly blighted by short-termism and evasion of responsibility.

[DannyInvincible]

On the issue of your analogy about archaeology, you created this analogy after reading Nesta99 talk about the use of the word 'excuse'. You assumed that he had been asking people to justify their non-attendance, but it turns out that he hadn't. (He clarified in post 887 that there was no interrogation, but you still told him he was missing the point). So your analogy has fans of a particular activity badgering others who have no interest in that activity as to why they don't participate in that activity. You may not have explicitly accused Nesta99 of badgering people, but it is clear from your post that you imply there are some LOI fans out there badgering people over their non-attendance. Why make it part of the analogy regarding an 'unhelpful attitude' otherwise? You assumed all this from the word 'excuse', and even when the context was made clear to you, you still insist the analogy is valid. But it isn't.

I hadn't necessarily assumed that he'd been asking or badgering people to justify their non-attendance. I didn't accuse anyone of badgering anyone. I simply (mis)perceived his use of the word "excuse" to imply that he had an expectation upon others and that if they were ever explaining their non-attendance, he saw them as excusing themselves from what he, perhaps inadvertently, viewed as an obligation. Both myself and Nesta since came to an accord; I had misunderstood his use of the word "excuse". It was actually the case that non-attenders were volunteering reasons unprompted, as if offering excuses tinged by their own non-imposed feelings of guilt. He did not expect them to be excusing themselves from some obligation he imposed upon them.

I used the word "badgering" in order to demonstrate how odd and inappropriate it would be to have an archaeology digger expect someone with no interest in archaeology whatsoever to have to excuse themselves from attending a dig to which they'd never committed themselves in the first place. I was trying to draw a comparison with another mindset or dynamic of expectation. I mentioned "badgering" to illuminate and maybe even with a sense of hyperbole in order to drive home the oddity or inappropriate nature of such expectation, but it was not to level a strict accusation at Nesta. The analogy was valid within that context, but as I said, Nesta re-clarified for me and I eventually understood, so the analogy obviously doesn't apply to him any longer; I've not insisted it still applies to him. Well, it never actually did, but as I've acknowledged, I'd initially misinterpreted his use of the word. If you'd like me to acknowledge that the vast majority of LOI fans do not go around badgering non-supporters, I'm happy to do so. Nevertheless, I have seen the word "excuse" used before with the connotation with which I'd mistakenly taken issue.


So, in post 922, you are still going on about 'the present degree of polarised entrenchment'. Could you let me know what that degree is. Just how prevalent are these fans with the mindset of assuming non-LOI fans are imbeciles, are deluded (I saw no delusion in MarinoBohs post - could you point it out please), and badger non-LOI fans?


Are you actually denying that there's a severe polarisation between LOI supporter and barstooler in Ireland? The degree of mutual contempt or disdain is significant. That is to say the feelings are not unilateral. You can't seriously play that down? Isn't that the big issue?

Repressed anger and hatred applied more to marinobohs' post, but there can also be delusion in feelings of anger being directed towards others for what they happen to take an interest in, simply because it's not in line with what the angry party is interested in. It is to selfishly or expectantly assume, or at least imply, on the part of the angry party, that the others somehow owe the angry party something or that they exist to serve the angry party's interests to some degree. It's a delusion as to one's right or entitlement.


You ask me if these attitudes do not exist, and are not harmful. In my opinion, these attitudes exist in such tiny numbers as to have no harmful effects. Again, the people being insulted, in the vast majority of cases, are those who have dismissed the league without rational reason. They are not 'potential partners'. And, to use an argument you're familiar with, anybody who would be insulted by these comments would have to be very precious indeed.

Well, well, well... Someone who might feel a bit intimidated by an expressed intent to "bludgeon them to death with the nearest TV" would have to be "very precious indeed"? Really?! I guess they're lucky he who wants to bludgeon them to death can "resist the urge to kill"... Sure, marinobohs was most likely posturing (with the aid of some hyperbole), but don't try and compare the nature of this argument to the one we had about Paddy Barnes' harmless incident on the podium. Barnes is a good boxer and he knows who he is, but he has never expressed such vitriol as an intent to murder someone over the team with whom they affiliate. He didn't even set out to insult, or, at least, you, despite your suspicions, couldn't say with any certainty that he did. Anyhow, whether or not non-interested parties are being "very precious indeed" in relation to the matter at hand, the LOI has a serious national image problem. Such attitudes and their tolerance (or is it defending them in which you're now engaging?) doesn't help with that, yet most LOI fans would simultaneously claim they want to see more people flock to the league. Why can't these people who are being insulted be potential partners? Would you rather shun them?

[osarusan]

Anyhow, whether or not non-interested parties are being "very precious indeed" in relation to the matter at hand, the LOI has a serious national image problem. Such attitudes and their tolerance (or is it defending them in which you're now engaging?) doesn't help with that...

It has a national popularity problem, certainly. Where we disagree is how much of this problem is caused by the image that non-fans have of the unhelpful attitudes and behaviour of LOI fans. I think it's negligible, and its impact on the popularity of the league is virtually nil. I think you exaggerate the extent and impact of the polarisation and disdain, and I don't think it's a 'big issue' at all. You think otherwise. Again, all I can say is that this hasn't been my experience in any way.

It's probably best to leave it there.

[DannyInvincible]

OK, I wouldn't be able for another round! :hypnotized:

I hope I wasn't too ratty; I was frustrated by what I perceived to be repeated misrepresentation, but we've both said our bits and we shall leave it at that.

[Charlie Darwin]

Anybody watching the (repeat) Match of the Day 50 years show? Could have sworn the Newcastle fan just now (who sounds like he has a Merseyside accent) was wearing a Dundalk scarf. I don't have rewind on my TV so I can't check.

[ArdeeBhoy]

But then maybe a failure to accept an outside perspective is part of their problem...

[Duffman]

2147
Anybody watching the (repeat) Match of the Day 50 years show? Could have sworn the Newcastle fan just now (who sounds like he has a Merseyside accent) was wearing a Dundalk scarf. I don't have rewind on my TV so I can't check.

That looks very like a St Georges cross to me!

[Charlie Darwin]

2147

That looks very like a St Georges cross to me!
So it is a Dundalk scarf? :p

[BonnieShels]

2147

That looks very like a St Georges cross to me!

It's the cross at the top of the pennant on top of the crest of the Newcastle United club badge.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/56/Newcastle_United_Logo.svg/1016px-Newcastle_United_Logo.svg.png

[ArdeeBhoy]

Why would a Geordie be wearing a Dundalk scarf...

[Dunny]

Why would a Geordie be wearing a Dundalk scarf...

Solidarity with "Gazza"

[Charlie Darwin]

I don't know AB, that's why I was asking the question.

[nigel-harps1954]

I despair. While Ireland are not producing top quality players, "Shane Long and Seamus Coleman were accidents".

http://www.theguardian.com/football/these-football-times/2014/aug/29/ireland-irish-players-premier-league (http://www.theguardian.com/football/these-football-times/2014/aug/29/ireland-irish-players-premier-league#start-of-comments)

[osarusan]

Accidents in the sense that Ireland doesn't have any plan/system in place to maximise the raw potential of a huge number of young players.

From the article:
Ireland is a small country – the Republic has a population of just over 4.5m – and thus the talent pool is comparatively shallow. However, unlike bigger countries, Ireland’s population is largely centralised and therefore the condition is ripe to introduce a centralised development plan. Uruguay, a country that mirrors Ireland in this sense, albeit with a stronger footballing identity, has done so in recent years. There is a clear, cohesive structure and development plan from youth to senior football, when the best players will be exported. Irish football by comparison is fractured.

[Stuttgart88]

I saw your response in there Nigel!

Osarusan is right though, there is still huge numbers playing. It's easily enough to work with. You never know though, maybe the changes already made will bear fruit sometime. I've heard a lot of people saying coaching is more enlightened now but that it takes time for these things to show through. The Scots were moaning two years ago and now they're feeling good about themselves.

The FAI getting a grip on the game, breaking down the factions and joining it all up is the main thing that needs to be done, plus investment in coach education.

I think Nigel's retort in the Guardian is way too simplistic, and we have to look at how the world works nowadays. A few or even a lot of extra bods through the turnstiles will make minimal difference. TV money is where clubs get most of their income to pay good players. Our TV market is miniscule.

I fully respect tradition but I'm more desperate for Irish football and other lesser countries to play more of a role in the continental media phenomenon that is modern football. If opening up cross border leagues outside, say the big 5, or regionalising and or / divisionalising the Europa League or even having a CL for second and third tier countries like the Copenhagen CEO proposed recently, is what may be required I'd have to support it.

This was an interesting article during the week, yet it doesn't even get close to addressing the needs of countries our size:

http://www.espnfc.com/blogs/74/post/2007734/michael-platinis-champions-league-playoff-plan-needs-revising


Sorry Nigel, I was referring to your first comment, the response to Shane G. The others I agreed more with.

[DannyInvincible]

The poor lad's getting dog's abuse for "employing negative racial stereoypes" and for being a "condescending posh English git" with a "British superiority complex". He appears to be from Dublin (http://robertredmond10.wordpress.com/).

[osarusan]

All based on the first line about visiting the pub, I'd say, which is pretty pointless, like all of the first paragraph really.

[nigel-harps1954]

The whole first section of the article was completely needless really.