Barstool facepalm

[Jofspring]

No worse again is when they call each other "Manc scum" or "scouse scum".

[DannyInvincible]

The 'fans' that annoy me the most are the clowns that, never having been to Manchester, Liverpool, London etc, still insist on using 'we' to describe an EPL team :mad: really makes me want to bludgeon them to death with the nearest TV. Usually resist the urge to kill (no guarantee of future performance ;) as the banks say) but have to ask if their name is Glazer, Henry or Abramovich.

........its the little things that keep you sane(ish)

Sure, the examples desaintsno.12, Jofspring and yourself highlight are curious and peculiarly Irish phenomena, and I'm not particularly fond of the hyper-commercial ethos that now permeates modern football at the expense of the communal one, but that's an awful lot of repressed anger you've got there. Why do you hate so much people who simply have an interest in something other than what you're interested in? Of what use is such pent-up aggression and what business is it of yours if other people want to shamelessly consume a brand? Is it your way of reassuring yourself you're better than them?

[BonnieShels]

Ah Danny.

The main reason that an LOI fan might seem to be more angry or annoyed or seemingly feel a sense of superiority is because we are witnessing the slow demise of soccer in our country.

The LOI is dying as is the IL. Werder Bremen will be fine without that one odd fan who supports Bayern. Shels and Bohs and Harps and Derry however...

I have no care for who anyone supports. It doesn't really affect my day-to-day living but whe you see the stupid "lifestyle" of Irish EPL supporting fans it just makes you weep for what could be.

I mean the dismissal of the entire national league of a country doesn't happen ANYWHERE else. At least Barca and Bayern are located in the countries of the above mentioned people.

The supporting of Madrid and Barca right across Spain usually occurs in conjunction with the local team and I see no harm in that generally.

So yes, Marinobohs is better than them. As I am and Dodge and Nigel and PartySaint and LTID and Osa and Jofsping and dong and redobit and SkStu and Longfordian and SamHeggy...

[Stuttgart88]

You say the LOI is dying, but is that not a Shels fan talking?

I can only follow the LOI from a laptop but what I'm picking up on is a strong vibe from Cork and Dundalk and Rovets, Pats and Sligo are well placed to push on in the years ahead. I think the LOI is in a better place than 20 years ago. Maybe not 10 years ago but costs are more realistically managed now.

Anyway, my Berlin mate is a Bayern fan. He claims also to be a Hertha fan.

I think it's ok for fans from non-elite football nations to have a team they support in a big league. I do hate when that's all they support though. I think the Scandies are quite good at supporting local football whilst also looking to the big leagues for a bit of vicarious big time football action. I think the Irish are particularly rubbish. I think it's odd that a German from a big city can claim to be a fan of two top flight teams from big cities, less odd than a guy from the regions following only a big city club.

[Charlie Darwin]

To be honest, only supporting one team makes more sense to me. I can't imagine supporting two clubs in the same league, or even league set-up. Shamrock Rovers B is an exception obviously.

The LOI isn't dying but it's been on life support for years. The stadiums are dilapidated and there are several generations that deride it for what it's not rather than appreciating it for what it is. In Tallaght, at least, there's been a clear shift in support from older fellas from the Milltown days to kids, which hopefully bodes well for the future, but I'm not sure how it is at other clubs.

[Jofspring]

Irish football dying is not just at league of Ireland level it's right across the board and most would prefer to just go on supporting English clubs across the water, pumping big money into the English game all the while ignoring all the problems that are here. The same people will then whinge that Ireland isn't producing good enough players anymore and that the international team is suffering.

I've absolutely no problem with people supporting the bigger clubs, who doesn't want to see the best players playing at the highest level, but getting in a few Loi matches here and there would go along way to an Irish team but would be fairly insignificant to the bigger clubs.

[DannyInvincible]

Ah Danny.

The main reason that an LOI fan might seem to be more angry or annoyed or seemingly feel a sense of superiority is because we are witnessing the slow demise of soccer in our country.

The LOI is dying as is the IL. Werder Bremen will be fine without that one odd fan who supports Bayern. Shels and Bohs and Harps and Derry however...

I have no care for who anyone supports. It doesn't really affect my day-to-day living but whe you see the stupid "lifestyle" of Irish EPL supporting fans it just makes you weep for what could be.

I mean the dismissal of the entire national league of a country doesn't happen ANYWHERE else. At least Barca and Bayern are located in the countries of the above mentioned people.

The supporting of Madrid and Barca right across Spain usually occurs in conjunction with the local team and I see no harm in that generally.

So yes, Marinobohs is better than them. As I am and Dodge and Nigel and PartySaint and LTID and Osa and Jofsping and dong and redobit and SkStu and Longfordian and SamHeggy...

As you know, there's an emotional side of me that strongly sympathises, if not wants to conveniently agree, with a lot of what you say, but I think the anger is misdirected and counter-productive. It's terribly regrettable that the game in Ireland is the way it is. It is a great shame; a national shame. But surely to feel angry towards someone for what they happen to take an interest in, simply because it's not in line with what you're interested in yourself, is to selfishly or expectantly assume, or at least imply, that they somehow owe you something or that they exist to serve your interests to some degree? In any scenario, there will always be elements that we can't control. To speak rather generally for a moment, shifting blame onto those factors/people and vocalising them as excuses is vindictive, irresponsible and, ultimately, a surrendering of personal/collective power and an acceptance of impotence. How can someone who owes you and your passion nothing in the first place be held responsible for the demise of said passion? The upkeep and maintenance of your passion is not their burden. It is the responsibility of the self-declared and recognised patrons of that passion. If there is anger to be directed, it ought to be (constructive anger) directed towards those patrons, who should also be willing to admit that their negligence, failure to take initiative and habitual inability to learn from their errors has indeed proved detrimental.

I'd love it if the broad Irish public got behind the entire Irish game, but they do have a choice, whether we like it or not, so it's about winning them over and trying to welcome them under the umbrella. It's a voluntary matter for them; becoming interested parties. There are no obligations or duties. If trying to win them over doesn't work, try again and try harder. There's little point in shunning them, abusing them and condemning them to their alleged national and intellectual inferiority. In what way could that ever be productive? Trying to shame them for who they are? The rather bi-polar position of playing their victim whilst simultaneously claiming their national and intellectual superior breeds nothing but animosity and contempt.

"They're the problem." "We aren't wrong." "It is someone else's fault." "We are superior." They're all unhelpful attitudes. It takes me back to a quote by the missed Sullivinho (where did he go anyway?) from the eligibility thread (http://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligibility-Rules-Okay?p=1675015&viewfull=1#post1675015) back in the day. To adapt it and render it relevant here, it could be rephrased as:


Curiosities and contradiction abound when trying to explain the inexplicable. Family? Ignorance? Inferiority? Stupidity? Extraterrestrial mind control? All possibilities. What is absolutely beyond doubt is no one should ever, ever have an issue supporting the League of Ireland. That is the axiom from which all further reasoning must proceed.

And so we mocked IFA intransigence and presumptuousness along such lines. We advised that the IFA should sort out their own house before shifting the blame for their perceived problems onto others. The quote embodies a familiar defeatist mindset, so why should we tolerate such psychological evasion to the detriment of our national league, just because it's convenient to shift the blame? When someone engages in such evasion and delusion, they should be pulled up on it, because it's not doing the league any favours and causes only further damage. It lets those responsible off the hook.


Irish football dying is not just at league of Ireland level it's right across the board and most would prefer to just go on supporting English clubs across the water, pumping big money into the English game all the while ignoring all the problems that are here. The same people will then whinge that Ireland isn't producing good enough players anymore and that the international team is suffering.

I agree that that represents a glaring contradiction in the declared interests of many football fans in Ireland. We can only hope that the greater number of League of Ireland players contributing to the fortunes (hopefully not misfortunes...) of the national side opens more eyes to the crucial importance of a stronger national league, especially with the numerical downturn of Irish players participating in the upper echelons of the English game. Educating people (as intellectual equals) when the opportunity arises and explaining to them why, in your opinion, their declared interests are seemingly incongruous and self-defeating (without being condescending or assuming that they must be imbecilic ignoramuses to think the inexplicable way do) is a good start. I speak generally, by the way, and am not referring to you specifically, Jofspring. :)

As an aside, it's not something I've theorised about or pondered about in any great detail (so would, of course, appreciate the thoughts of others on it), but I've often thought that the lack of a widespread industrial revolution, and resultant urbanisation, in Ireland has historically contributed to the country's poor to virtually non-existent national footballing infrastructure and culture. Ireland was the exception in Europe during the age of industrialisation and remained primarily agrarian whilst the rest of Europe steamrolled into the next century. In the UK and other European states, the stronger football teams almost exclusively grew out of urban working-class communities living around the thriving factories in the new industrial centres. Ireland's society and national identity has been very much a rural one, historically, with that identity rooted very much in the concept of the agricultural parish. The attempted (or half-hearted, even) Gaelicisation/de-Anglicisation of Ireland towards and post-independence, no doubt, didn't help the development of the "foreign game" either.

[Charlie Darwin]

We can only hope that the greater number of League of Ireland players contributing to the fortunes (hopefully not misfortunes...) of the national side opens more eyes to the crucial importance of a stronger national league, especially with the numerical downturn of Irish players participating in the upper echelons of the English game.
I can guarantee you it will do the opposite. You can have Seamus Colemans coming out your arse but there will always be a substantial portion of Irish people who genuinely think they could play for Drogheda United or Shelbourne. 80% of this country is lost to the LOI and will never have their heads turned. There is a small (young) minority who might buy in but they have to be given an experience they can buy into and bring their friends along with them.

[DannyInvincible]

Disinterest can admittedly be pretty stubborn but I don't think that's a necessary truth to which we should just automatically resign ourselves. There's a way to win people over. It just hasn't been successfully tried yet, evidently. Has it really been tried en masse at all? How did football gain such popularity in the US recently, for example? Was there a concerted campaign (obviously in line with the World Cup)? I can't imagine it was purely spontaneous. Gradually winning over people can help; the sense that something is popular can be a very powerful and contagious tool. There is a way to crack it. It'll just require a bit of imagination.

[Stuttgart88]

If Irish football is dying how come the girls game seems to be thriving? u19s, Raheny United?

I think the lack of top quality coming through is largely because the bar has been raised so high now and because the traditional destination for our best talent is now looking under rocks in the North Pole, its recruitment reach is that vast.

Yes, there are issues with the shape of the game, coaching standards, coaching and infrastructure investment etc. but it's too extreme to say the game is dying.

I still think the game has a very strong foundational structure but emotionally / psychologically the public want to attach to the nearby "major league" variety. It's the BIRGing / CORFing thing I referred to earlier in another thread.

I do agree with Danny though, there are ways to win people over.

[Real ale Madrid]

The 'fans' that annoy me the most are the clowns that, never having been to Manchester, Liverpool, London etc, still insist on using 'we' to describe an EPL team :mad: really makes me want to bludgeon them to death with the nearest TV. Usually resist the urge to kill (no guarantee of future performance ;) as the banks say) but have to ask if their name is Glazer, Henry or Abramovich.

........its the little things that keep you sane(ish)


www.youtube.com/watch?v=xN1WN0YMWZU

[ArdeeBhoy]

There's a lot of self-righteousness in this thread...
(runs)

[osarusan]

The LOI isn't dying, it's plodding along like it always has.

We often see people going on about how the LOI is 'dying' or 'broken', but when people talk about fixing it, 'fix' means 'improve', and I think that the kind of improvement that they imagine is beyond what will happen in LOI.

Who's to blame? The clubs, sure, for being, for the most part, terribly mismanaged and usually shortsighted. The FAI, sure, for not giving a sh!t about their league.

Some people don't have any interest in the LOI or care about it - fine with me, no worries, watch what you like.

But I don't think for a second that we need to refrain from expressing our frustration with and/or distain for people who instantly dismiss the LOI as sh!te, dying, or broken. I think it's generous to suggest that a rational and logical argument will convince these people of the merits of LOI when they are happy to dismiss it without any rational reason whatsoever.

Finally, on the issue of coming across as 'superior' or 'condescending'. We see it a lot, although not so much on this site. "I would go to LOI, but the fans might be mean to me. They're always acting so superior."

Anybody, and I mean anybody, who uses this pathetic excuse can go f**k themselves.

[Dodge]

Vast, vast majority of people looking to "fix" the league don't care about it.

I say it all the time but **** them, their loss. As long as I have games to go to and a team to cheer on, I'll be OK. It's supposed to be fun after all.

Fans of LOI clubs constantly moaning about being ignored/dismissed does no good. Whining rarely makes people think something is fun.

[Dodge]

Also, I wrote this in reply to one of those arseholey "I don't care about the league but I'll try and fix it anyway" articles in March

http://backpagefootball.com/new-league-season-same-old-problems-a-reply/71752/

[Stuttgart88]

Based on Jonathan Wilson's book on Eastern European football the LOI appears to be quite well run!

I'm not sure what people really want in the league. The champions of the last few years have won it the right way and in exciting contests. This year looks no different. For a league in a small country with no TV market and starved of any source of non-domestic money, what do people expect?

I hung around with a lot of football-minded friends in my 20s. Rather than attending LOI regularly most of us played every weekend, and usually twice a weekend. Add twice weekly training and there wasn't much time left for going to live games. The sheer numbers of people playing in all of the corporation parks at weekends, and the depth of coverage in the weekly junior footy pull outs in the evening papers suggested to me that Ireland actually managed to convert football interest into something more tangible than paying to watch the game at home. There are well supported community clubs all over the country, but few of these players and volunteers are part of the LOI fanbase. That's not wrong from a moral point of view, but it's a weakness from an organisational perspective, the much sought after joined-up pyramid etc.

Lots of other countries get political support for football infrastructure but Ireland is relatively unique in that football is competing with the sporting wing of the Irish state. Other small countries have other sports to compete with but the GAA is different because of its political support. I loved Jerry Kiernan's outburst recently on the state funding a new clubhouse for London GAA, giving more money than it ever gives Irish athletics. Rugby is fortunate because it has privileged access to the lucrative Heineken Cup (and successor) and has only a handful of countries to compete against. Without European rugby the Celtic nations would be in the same position as the LOI. The IRFU has exploited its position very well, and rugby has tapped into a peculiar part of the Irish psyche in that we love external success / validation, especially against England. The same part of that psyche is to look down our noses where we're not up to scratch.

I really liked Dodge's response to that article but one point I'm not sure about is that just because a disinterested outsider thinks the league should improve doesn't mean that the league couldn't improve, and more importantly, that it's not important for it to be better. All Irish football stakeholders win if the LOI is stronger, better connected to other levels of football, better backed and better supported in my opinion.

[Charlie Darwin]

Vast, vast majority of people looking to "fix" the league don't care about it.

I say it all the time but **** them, their loss. As long as I have games to go to and a team to cheer on, I'll be OK. It's supposed to be fun after all.

Fans of LOI clubs constantly moaning about being ignored/dismissed does no good. Whining rarely makes people think something is fun.
I also resent the idea that LOI fans are required to be ambassadors for the league and constantly have to justify it and convert people. If I want to be dismissive of other people who don't give it a chance, or sneer at them, it's my choice.

[Nesta99]

There is little converting to be done in Dundalk and i'm sure its the same in other towns like Sligo for example. A good majority are interested in how the club is getting on and I have no problem passing on the results but those that ask about the game on Friday nights have so many excuses for why they wont or cant get up to Oriel... The most common excuse currently seems to be I used to go but when things went bad I gave up and i'd feel stupid going back as i dont want to be one of those only sing when we're winning people (though these tend to have Leeds, Blackburn, Man U, Arsenal shirts oF 90's vintage). There is little sneering at Dundalk FC but I feel like sneering at those who claim to have served their time in Oriel (quite appropriate term for some) during the 80s hence leave the supporting to the younger folk now - didnt know 40 something was somewhat of a retirement age for football supporters in North Louth

[Stuttgart88]

40 somethings have family commitments that younger folk don't have though. So I'm told anyway :)

I think most "active" football fans are younger. I used to love being in the thick of things and joining in all the chanting. I'm much more passive in my old age now.

[TonyD]

Vast, vast majority of people looking to "fix" the league don't care about it.

I say it all the time but **** them, their loss. As long as I have games to go to and a team to cheer on, I'll be OK. It's supposed to be fun after all.

Fans of LOI clubs constantly moaning about being ignored/dismissed does no good. Whining rarely makes people think something is fun.

Spot on. And as for being dismissive, do people not find that fans of english clubs can be equally, if not more, dismissive of the LOI - !I wouldn't watch that ****e etc etc. Oh, and it is fun. Ask Dundalk fans this year, or Pats fans last year. In fact even when it's not so much fun, I still find you can't stop caring. It must be like a parent dealing with a child on drugs or something, you still can't help loving them, even though they break your heart :)

[Charlie Darwin]

40 somethings have family commitments that younger folk don't have though. So I'm told anyway :)

I think most "active" football fans are younger. I used to love being in the thick of things and joining in all the chanting. I'm much more passive in my old age now.
The problem for a long time was that the 40-somethings were becoming a larger proportion of the fanbase, which isn't the way numbers are really supposed to work.

[nigel-harps1954]

It's funny you know, I love telling EPL fans "I wouldn't watch that sh!te", and just look at their reactions. The mixture of confusion and anger that fills them is wonderful.

I've gone beyond getting annoyed at people. It's their choice what they wish to watch, but it'll not stop me attempting to bring a few friends along. A close friend of mine started watching Galway at the start of the season, never been a league of Ireland fan before, and he's now a fairly regular attendee in Terryland. No pressure put on him, and he's gone and enjoyed it himself.

You can't force someone to watch it. But you can encourage.

[Nesta99]

Living in England for the most part with regular weekends back, when games are on TV like the recent Cork v Dundalk match the English lads that were watching the game had a genuine interest or curiosity in the standard. After the game it was 'when you heading over for a match we'll tip along too'. No cajoling or justifying a leagues existence. These guys would be Colchester United, Orient, & and Southend regulars but West Ham too (not the Orient lads lol). In a very common sense point of view they dont expect every game to be of a Sky Sports top ten moments. They acknowledge the limitations of the lower league teams but dont deride them in a comparison to an EPL team. They loved the passion and dedication that was on offer at Turners Cross, the football too - no amount of explaining the Oriel was no comparison to Turners Cross facilities wise they didnt care. United Park on Friday was a contrast ground wise but again there was no elitist attitude they enjoyed the game and thrills of the Derby. I suppose what im getting at is that Irish football fans are far more critical of our own and overly so in contrast to an outside untainted viewpoint that is not warped by BT or SKY razzmatazz. A similar contrast from being at Upton Park to WHC Stadium but the sense not to expect the same experience, not comparing like with like etc. As regulars in a pub that has Irish sports Soccer Republic gets a few airings over the week. Its all an easy sell compared to the complex driven 'Irish' fans. They did laugh though at a documentary on New York EPL supporters and an irish lad stating that he refused to go in to a bar cause it was full of Mancs or Scousers ... cant remember which

[Nesta99]

40 somethings have family commitments that younger folk don't have though. So I'm told anyway :)

I think most "active" football fans are younger. I used to love being in the thick of things and joining in all the chanting. I'm much more passive in my old age now.

I agree with you in the most part - but the type im referring to are already sitting in a pub having sunk numerous pints, want a detailed match report, start misty eyed reminising about former eras and how much they gave of themselves. Suggest that the head up the following week ....?

[Charlie Darwin]

They did laugh though at a documentary on New York EPL supporters and an irish lad stating that he refused to go in to a bar cause it was full of Mancs or Scousers ... cant remember which
Oh good jaysus.

[CityRebel]

I think the League of Ireland and Women's football are two of the positive things going on in Irish football. The LOI clubs have improved off the pitch after some very hard times, even though it's still a challenge to balance the books. The importance of the LOI developing players for the national team has been on an upward trend for the last decade. The number of ex-LOI players in the squad and in the first XI is increasing all the time. We can't rely on foreign clubs to develop our players for us anymore and the LOI has a key role to play, hopefully more people will realise this.

[Nesta99]

Oh good jaysus.

Looked it up and it is a film on Manchester United and the comment 'Why do you not like Manchester United fans? Irish chap in an Arsenal shirt replies 'Cause none of them are from Manchester!'......while walking down a New York street the Irony was not lost on the English lads!

7.40mins in but go back to 7min to get the full puke worthy chat!
http://watchmovies.to/movies/45079-manchester-united-beyond-the-promised-land

[DannyInvincible]

I also resent the idea that LOI fans are required to be ambassadors for the league and constantly have to justify it and convert people.

I hope you didn't infer that from my post, Charlie. Everyone's free to do what they like. :) When I spoke about responsibility, I was looking at those who explicitly claim responsibility for/ownership of the league and the clubs. It's only fair to expect that they'd act as responsible ambassadors.


The most common excuse currently seems to be I used to go but when things went bad I gave up and i'd feel stupid going back as i dont want to be one of those only sing when we're winning people (though these tend to have Leeds, Blackburn, Man U, Arsenal shirts oF 90's vintage).

What do you say to those who offer you that "excuse"?

I don't want to make a massive deal out of it in confrontational fashion as you may have used it fairly neutrally (or perhaps unwittingly) and this probably comes across as a bit pedantic on my part, but even the word "excuse" used in this context has loaded connotations and would sound daft - possibly even insulting - to someone with no present active interest in the league. An excuse is "a plea offered in extenuation of a fault or for release from an obligation or a promise". These inactive or latent supporters may have their reasons, but why would or should they ever feel like they have to excuse themselves, as if they're in the wrong and owe you an explanation?

The language proponents use in promotion of the league is very important; it needs to be positive and encouraging. The most effective way to win people over is by making them feel good about getting into something; not by making them feel guilty for being interested in something else. No-one likes to feel like their being coerced, goaded or emotionally blackmailed into or out of something. Do you feel a need to excuse yourself from other local events in Dundalk besides football that you don't bother attending because you have absolutely no interest in them at present? What would you make of people mocking your "excuses" for not partaking in the local church choir or joining the weekly cookery club? Asking someone with no interest in the League of Ireland what their "excuse" is for not attending games would sound as senseless and unreasonable to them as what asking you what your "excuse" was for not going on an archaeology dig in Monaghan next Sunday or for not eating Irish stew right now would sound like to you. You might have unconscious reasons - a simple lack of present interest, most likely, as is your right - but if someone started badgering you to explain yourself or expected you to excuse yourself, you'd rightly think they were on a wind-up, no?

[DannyInvincible]

And as for being dismissive, do people not find that fans of english clubs can be equally, if not more, dismissive of the LOI - !I wouldn't watch that ****e etc etc.

What you say is probably true, but it's surely no reason to lower oneself to such standards.

"They're dismissive of us, so we're going to be dismissive of them!" Where does that get us?

[osarusan]

The language proponents use in promotion of the league is very important; it needs to be positive and encouraging. The most effective way to win people over is by making them feel good about getting into something; not by making them feel guilty for being interested in something else. No-one likes to feel like their being coerced, goaded or emotionally blackmailed into or out of something. Do you feel a need to excuse yourself from other local events in Dundalk besides football that you don't bother attending because you have absolutely no interest in them at present? What would you make of people mocking your "excuses" for not partaking in the local church choir or joining the weekly cookery club? Asking someone with no interest in the League of Ireland what their "excuse" is for not attending games would sound as senseless and unreasonable to them as what asking you what your "excuse" was for not going on an archaeology dig in Monaghan next Sunday or for not eating Irish stew right now would sound like to you. You might have unconscious reasons - a simple lack of present interest, most likely, as is your right - but if someone started badgering you to explain yourself or expected you to excuse yourself, you'd rightly think they were on a wind-up, no?
Are you serious? Do you really think that LOI fans are confronting or challenging non LOI fans, 'badgering' them, looking for them to justify their non-attendance? That's a ludicrous notion, and not in any way a rational interpretation of the comments on this thread either.

Danny, who are you to lecture us on what you see as our condescension and our unhelpful attitudes, or instruct us as to what we should be doing? Why should I not simply assume that you are just another poster who doesn't know much about LOI, but has the arrogance to think they know how to diagnose the problems and to fix them?

Certainly, your argument that all the league needs is a bit of imagination in its promotion is a ridiculous oversimplification of the problems it faces, and very insulting to people, people I know personally, who have spent years, if not decades, working their arses off to develop their club in the face of a generally apathetic public.

[DannyInvincible]

Are you serious? Do you really think that LOI fans are confronting or challenging non LOI fans, 'badgering' them, looking for them to justify their non-attendance? That's a ludicrous notion, and not in any way a rational interpretation of the comments on this thread either.

When terms like "excuse" are used, it indicates what I perceive to be a mindset that does nobody any favours. It sounds like a supporter is looking for justification for non-attendance when they speak of someone requiring an "excuse". I was just trying to demonstrate why that mindset might seem odd by adapting it to another context. I wasn't necessarily accusing supporters of being explicitly confrontational, although, for whatever reason, you have gotten very defensive about matters right now. You're usually a very rational and unemotional poster in debate, but you're clearly very touchy about what you see as your orthodoxy being challenged in this instance.


Danny, who are you to lecture us on what you see as our condescension and our unhelpful attitudes, or instruct us as to what we should be doing? Why should I not simply assume that you are just another poster who doesn't know much about LOI, but has the arrogance to think they know how to diagnose the problems and to fix them?

Certainly, your argument that all the league needs is a bit of imagination in its promotion is a ridiculous oversimplification of the problems it faces, and very insulting to people, people I know personally, who have spent years, if not decades, working their arses off to develop their club in the face of a generally apathetic public.

You seem to like simplifying my arguments into single sentences, but I'm not of the opinion that all the league needs is a little bit of imagination. I'm well aware there are other major problems it has to overcome in order to just about survive; problems that make things very difficult for the league, no matter what it and its patrons do. I'm sorry if I sounded like I was trying to lecture anyone; I wasn't. I'm trying to offer constructive debate. If you don't think a change in attitudes would be at all helpful, just say so; don't try to question my character and "qualifications". There's no need to try and frame me as some sort of "outsider" who first needs to validate himself before having a right to express an opinion on the LOI. I've attended league games for years at various periods of my life (as if I have to justify my opinion...). I won't try to claim I've ever been as dedicated as some of those on here and others - for whom I have great respect (I hope you don't see that as condescending!) - but I'm not coming at this as someone who wishes to disparage the league or cause it harm. So, you can get off your high-horse too. ;)

[osarusan]

When terms like "excuse" are used, it indicates what I perceive to be a mindset that does nobody any favours. It sounds like a supporter is looking for justification for non-attendance when they speak of someone requiring an "excuse". I was just trying to demonstrate why that mindset might seem odd by adapting it to another context. I wasn't necessarily accusing supporters of being explicitly confrontational, although, for whatever reason, you have gotten very defensive about matters right now. You're usually a very rational and unemotional poster in debate, but you're clearly very touchy about what you see as your orthodoxy being challenged in this instance.


I'm not defensive (what have I go to be defensive about?), I'm pi**ed off, because I think you've horribly represented the 'mindset' of LOI fans.

Firstly, you've appropriated Sullivinho's post from the eligibility rules thread and adapted it for this debate, so it reads like this: What is absolutely beyond doubt is no one should ever, ever have an issue supporting the League of Ireland. That is the axiom from which all further reasoning must proceed. I don't see anything on this thread or on this website to suggest that this is in any way the majority view of LOI fans, but you have no problem ascribing this mindset to us. And what kind of words did you associate with this mindset? Delusion. Repressed anger. Condescension. We have unhelpful attitudes. We apparently, generally speaking, view anybody who doesn't have the same mindset as imbecilic ignoramuses. We badger them to have them justify their non-attendance at LOI games.

All of the above is so far removed what I am completely confident the vast vast majority of LOI fans are like. And as I said, I don't think there is anything on this website to explain the general image you portray of LOI fans. So yeah, I'm pi**ed off about it.

So, how to go about solving the problems? I don't think it misrepresents your argument to paraphrase it using Sullivinho's post again: What is absolutely beyond doubt is that everybody will be interested in LOI if it's advertised to them properly. That is the axiom from which all further reasoning must proceed.

Now, I don't think this is any more true about LOI football than it is abour archaeology or Irish stew or anything else. But you do: There's a way to win people over. It just hasn't been successfully tried yet, evidently. In fact, you wonder if we've been trying hard enough: Has it really been tried en masse at all? No doubt, advertising is the way forward: There is a way to crack it. It'll just require a bit of imagination.

Think about that last line Danny. Think about how glibly you dismiss the hard work done by LOI clubs over the years. You think they haven't spent hours racking their brains, thinking about the best ways to get people in the gates? That they haven't tried everything they can think of? Trying their own ideas, or mimicked stuff that worked elsewhere? But all these years, none of them ever realised that it'll just require a bit of imagination.


I'm trying to offer constructive debate. If you don't think a change in attitudes would be at all helpful, just say so; don't try to question my character and "qualifications". There's no need to try and frame me as some sort of "outsider" who first needs to validate himself before having a right to express an opinion on the LOI. I've attended league games for years at various periods of my life (as if I have to justify my opinion...). I won't try to claim I've ever been as dedicated as some of those on here and others - for whom I have great respect (I hope you don't see that as condescending!) - but I'm not coming at this as someone who wishes to disparage the league or cause it harm.

Certainly you're entitled to your opinion, and I would never suggest otherwise. I am also sure that you're not someone who wishes to disparage the league or cause it harm, of course not.

I'm not trying to frame you as an outsider. I don't see it like that. I look at it in terms of who has a good enough understanding of LOI to be familiar with the problems it faces, and knowledge of the past attempts to remedy these problems. And when you portray LOI fans as you have above, dismiss their hard work as you have above, and offer up the analogy you offered earlier about archaeology, I'm not convinced at all by these arguments.

[Stuttgart88]

This article probably deserves a spot in another thread - I can see its relevance to several! - but one thing that stands out is the sheer reach of the brand of English football. Make no mistake, it is a brand, the clubs are brands and they are extremely complex and effective brands.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/aug/12/san-diego-america-soccer-crazy-mls

It's basically an article on how San Diego is soccer mad, would love a MLS team, is a hotbed of talent but is also a tug of war ground for Mexico and USA for this talent, also loves the EPL but, it speculates, the locals would happily support their own team while following English football from afar.

[Straightstory]

As someone who's been supporting the LOI for over 40 years, BY FAR the main difference I've noticed is how little press coverage the league gets now since I first started going to games. The English game used to get coverage of course, but I'd say the ratio was about 50/50. Now it's about 95/5 in favour of the EPL. (I don't think I'm exaggerating about this). Also, 'star' columnists like Con Houlihan would write regularly about the League. It's unthinkable now that someone like Keith Duggan in The Irish Times (which, somewhat curiously, has become a rabidly GAA newspaper) would do this now.

Also: I would guess he crowds are probably slightly less. (Does anyone have any hard info on this??)

The facilities are slightly better. (Only because they were unspeakably bleak in the 1970s)

The main problem is people's lack of imagination. They can't make the connection between supporting local clubs and these clubs becoming successful as a result of more people going through the turnstiles and creating revenue. (By 'successful' I mean being able to reach the Europa or Champions' League Group stages in Europe - the 'people' don't care about the domestic league).

Have to say - I'm impressed by the intelligent, thoughtful and articulate arguments being made on this thread. At the risk of sounding condescending to our EPL and Celtic obsessed friends, one gets a better brand of poster on the foot.ie League of Ireland message board.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Except some of us were 'Celtic-obsessed', because there was no LOI club for miles and my folks wouldn't have been seen dead in there even if there had of been, partly for 'cultural/social' reasons, but mainly because they weren't remotely soccer 'fans' until many years later.

Respect the vast majority of LOI fans have met at Ireland games over the years, even if some are a tad precious about 'their product'.
Especially respect those ones who are local to their clubs and see it as a focal point in their community.

[Dodge]

I also resent the idea that LOI fans are required to be ambassadors for the league and constantly have to justify it and convert people. If I want to be dismissive of other people who don't give it a chance, or sneer at them, it's my choice.

Sorry if I came across that way. I have an issue with "whining", that's all.

If people want to have a pop at arseholes who dismiss the league, that's fine but I wouldn't waste my time with them.

Anyway osarusan spells out most of my feelings on the subject far better than I can.

[Nesta99]

What do you say to those who offer you that "excuse"?

I don't want to make a massive deal out of it in confrontational fashion as you may have used it fairly neutrally (or perhaps unwittingly) and this probably comes across as a bit pedantic on my part, but even the word "excuse" used in this context has loaded connotations and would sound daft - possibly even insulting - to someone with no present active interest in the league. An excuse is "a plea offered in extenuation of a fault or for release from an obligation or a promise". These inactive or latent supporters may have their reasons, but why would or should they ever feel like they have to excuse themselves, as if they're in the wrong and owe you an explanation?

The language proponents use in promotion of the league is very important; it needs to be positive and encouraging. The most effective way to win people over is by making them feel good about getting into something; not by making them feel guilty for being interested in something else. No-one likes to feel like their being coerced, goaded or emotionally blackmailed into or out of something. Do you feel a need to excuse yourself from other local events in Dundalk besides football that you don't bother attending because you have absolutely no interest in them at present? What would you make of people mocking your "excuses" for not partaking in the local church choir or joining the weekly cookery club? Asking someone with no interest in the League of Ireland what their "excuse" is for not attending games would sound as senseless and unreasonable to them as what asking you what your "excuse" was for not going on an archaeology dig in Monaghan next Sunday or for not eating Irish stew right now would sound like to you. You might have unconscious reasons - a simple lack of present interest, most likely, as is your right - but if someone started badgering you to explain yourself or expected you to excuse yourself, you'd rightly think they were on a wind-up, no?

Whoah! That is a major over analysis of the point I was trying to make. I have never and will never be openly dismissive to people who either dismiss LoI outright or those who excuse their absence. There is no interrogation as to why they would not consider their return to Oriel Park on an occasion. This information is volunteered more often than not. The see a scarf, jersey, matchday programme and come over to find out about the game. My honest opinion of the match is given and practically without fail a series of reasons (or in my opinion excuses) get rolled out as to why they were not at the game themselves. The most frustrating one for me is the i quit during the bad times and i dont want to be a glory hunter type of stuff. My own reply is generally along the lines of who would notice, who would care, give it a chance again and if there is no longer any appeal for the local live game so be it - but dont rule it out because a different era caused disillusionment.

[Duffman]

Except some of us were 'Celtic-obsessed', because there was no LOI club for miles and my folks wouldn't have been seen dead in there even if there had of been, partly for 'cultural/social' reasons, but mainly because they weren't remotely soccer 'fans' until many years later.

Respect the vast majority of LOI fans have met at Ireland games over the years, even if some are a tad precious about 'their product'.
Especially respect those ones who are local to their clubs and see it as a focal point in their community.

Ardee? No club for miles? You've got 2 within about 15 miles!!

[nigel-harps1954]

Glasgow is a lot closer than Dundalk, Monaghan or Drogheda to him of course.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Ardee? No club for miles? You've got 2 within about 15 miles!!
Except wasn't living in Ardee then...but the North.

At least check yer facts.

[Stuttgart88]

He means Finsbury Park :)

[Nesta99]

The North Pole!

[gspain01]

As someone who's been supporting the LOI for over 40 years, BY FAR the main difference I've noticed is how little press coverage the league gets now since I first started going to games. The English game used to get coverage of course, but I'd say the ratio was about 50/50. Now it's about 95/5 in favour of the EPL. (I don't think I'm exaggerating about this). Also, 'star' columnists like Con Houlihan would write regularly about the League. It's unthinkable now that someone like Keith Duggan in The Irish Times (which, somewhat curiously, has become a rabidly GAA newspaper) would do this now.

.

Strange but spot on re the Sports section of the Times under Malachy Logan. There is very much a GAA slant on their Sport coverage with domestic football restricted. Shame as Emmett Malone is one of the best football writers. Even their World Cup preview had to be described in GAA terms. It used to be a rugby paper but the likes of Derek Jones and Peter Byrne had plenty of space for football.

My uncle was ran out of a shop in Kerry one summer circa 1970. He could only find the Irish Press and asked the woman behind the counter if she had the Times. "Gerra out of here with your protestant paper. I don't even stock the Independent."

[ArdeeBhoy]

He means Finsbury Park :)


The North Pole!
Er, Wrong on both counts.

The North of Ireland. You may just have heard of it?


Not known for burgeoning LOI clubs support back then. Or even now.

[ger121]

Except wasn't living in Ardee then...but the North.

At least check yer facts.

How could he check his facts? It's not like all the places you've resided in, are stored somewhere for all of us to access before we post something in reply to one of your posts.

[Stuttgart88]

Strange but spot on re the Sports section of the Times under Malachy Logan. There is very much a GAA slant on their Sport coverage with domestic football restricted. Shame as Emmett Malone is one of the best football writers. Even their World Cup preview had to be described in GAA terms. It used to be a rugby paper but the likes of Derek Jones and Peter Byrne had plenty of space for football.

My uncle was ran out of a shop in Kerry one summer circa 1970. He could only find the Irish Press and asked the woman behind the counter if she had the Times. "Gerra out of here with your protestant paper. I don't even stock the Independent."
Thanks for that. I have felt the Times to be very patronising when it can even be bothered with Irish football.

[Charlie Darwin]

It's not just the GAA heads. The racing correspondent/lead sports writer Brian O'Connor takes every opportunity he can to knock the LOI while talking about something completely different. They're just a reflection of the middle-upper class that makes up the vast majority of their readership.

[ger121]

It always annoys me how the Times calls it the National League. I know it was something to do with not wanting to use a previous sponsor's name but ffs, they could just call it the League of Ireland like everyone else does.

[MeathDrog]

Except wasn't living in Ardee then...but the North.

At least check yer facts.

Forgot there were no clubs in Northern Ireland.

[Nesta99]

Forgot there were no clubs in Northern Ireland.

Wait for the Derry lads to sort that one out!