The Steve Staunton Discussion thread

[Billsthoughts]

No
SA in '10 Is the Priority!..........
:D
When that becomes a write off the next one will be the priority....:rolleyes:

[Billsthoughts]

if we had of sacked him after the dutch game we wouldnt be in this position.
it was obvious then that we had serious problems. this kinda result has been coming. if he had any pride he would walk away now.

[John83]

if he had any pride he would walk away now.
My thinking too. It seems he doesn't.

[Babysis]

The very notion of sacking Staunton at this stage is ludicrious (like Dunphy) ,The team and management deserve at this stage is our full support at this stage

I have to agree. What are we possibly going to gain by sacking our manager 4 days before our next qualifier. As bad as it was (and yes it was awful) do we really want Stan out before Wednesday. Its best to think with a clear head after Wednesday IMO

[Billsthoughts]

I have to agree. What are we possibly going to gain by sacking our manager 4 days before our next qualifier. As bad as it was (and yes it was awful) do we really want Stan out before Wednesday. Its best to think with a clear head after Wednesday IMO

well it might send out the message to the players that losing 5-2 away to Cyprus is unacceptable. its much of a muchness really. the current set up will be massacered against the czechs.

[DmanDmythDledge]

if he had any pride he would walk away now.
I'd say he thinks he will have more pride if he stays in the job and doesn't quit.

[higgins]

Id imagine every player will be up for the game on wednesday and we'll come away with a draw of some sort. Stan will say he's turning things around and John Delaney will back him....

We'll be left with an idiot in charge.

When he said Edwin Van Der Sar was like a 13th man for the dutch he should have been sacked on the spot!!

[Billsthoughts]

I was thinking more in the "hang on till I get my pay off for being sacked" pride rather than "I can turn this thing around" pride.

[DmanDmythDledge]

I was thinking more in the "hang on till I get my pay off for being sacked" pride rather than "I can turn this thing around" pride.
Indeed.;)

[higgins]

What money is he on, about 400K a year isnt it?

With over 3 years left maybe we could all donate some cash and make up the 1million+ it takes to get him the boot?

Actually I doubt the FAI are that thick they tied themselves into 4 years of this clown?

[billybunter]

i would get him out now. we didnt lose 2-1 to cyprus for gods sake, we were lucky to not get beat 7-2. has to be an all time low. he has had 5-6 games to convince us he is the man, and all i needed was to hear his first 2 press conferences to realize that this gobshiite is not the right man. why should we wait until an ugly protest at landsdowne before he gets booted out?

[DmanDmythDledge]

Actually I doubt the FAI are that thick they tied themselves into 4 years of this clown?
Oh they are.

[billybunter]

Here is an Article on Setanta - sums up my feelings 100%...

A 5-2 defeat to Cyprus must cost Steve Staunton his job. If he is not man enough to resign immediately, the FAI must hand him his P45 and sincerely apologise to the fans for its massive error in judgement.

Saturday night in Nicosia was a disgrace, a scandal and an unforgivable humiliation. No manager deserves to keep his job after watching his side disassembled and torn to pieces by one of European football's traditional minnows. But it is hard not to feel some sympathy for Staunton.

He was given a job he could not do, appointed to a position well above his qualifications and experience.

Staunton's four year plan, his dreams of World Cup 2010 are over. Sure, nobody expected miracles - but not only has the team failed to show any progress, it has regressed into a shambles.

Ultimately, Staunton was the FAI's gamble. It hasn't worked and now the Association must hastily count its losses and shamefacedly move on from one of the darkest days - if not the darkest - in Irish football history.

The FAI should seriously consider apologising to the Irish fans in Cyprus and those with pre-booked tickets for the remainder of the campaign.

A world-class appointment was promised - what was delivered was world-class ignominy.

Ireland were out-played, out-thought and roundly beaten by Cyprus. Not since 1982 have we conceded five goals in one match. That was to Brazil, Saturday it was to Cyprus.

The sickeningly poor performance that led to a 5-2 defeat showed nothing to give Ireland any hope for the future, with the idea that the World Cup in 2010 is a realistic target under Staunton mocked by each Cypriot goal.

Oh how we all laughed along with Stephen Staunton when he dismissed Eamon Dunphy's call for him to be fired after the friendly humiliation by Holland at Lansdowne Road.

Well the joke is over. And so should be Staunton's reign.

But if Stan is to be held accountable for Saturday night, the FAI must be hung, drawn and quartered for his appointment in the first place.

[shakermaker1982]

I'd sack him now. We have no chance of qualifying and have to start afresh. Alan Curbishley is the only man that springs to mind and I'd beg him to sign up.

[Block G Raptor]

Steve Staunton was duped into taking the poisioned chalice that is the Ireland manager's job by a Cynical and financially motivated Delaney. He was supposed to fail maybee not as spectactularly as saturday night but fail none the less.
the reasons for this IMO are

1. The seeding for the qualifiers dictated that we would face a difficult group and would likely fail to qualify,which in the current climate usually means the manager gets the sack. Having someone like staunton was a cheap option for the FAI as it won't cost an arm and a leg to pay out his contract when we fail to qualify.

2. Delaney knew full well that the majority of the Ole Ole brigade would not look further than Stauntons excellent playing career and status as a favoured son as reason to get behind him and hope in vain for success under him

3. Delaney is a compleate B*****D who won't lose any sleep over the fact that he has destroyed any chance Staunton had of being a decent manager (who'd touch him now?)

I feel for Staunton because he was lead a merry dance by delaney and now really has only one option and that is to see the job trough to conclusion because if he resigns now he'll be unemployable and his only hope however unlikely is to turn things around with Ireland and restore some credibility to his managerial career.Not a pretty thought but I fear were stuck with him for the foreseable future. at the end of the day would you resign from a job knowing you had little or no chance of getting another one?

Good Luck Stan hope it all works out in the end but I'm sorry I dont believe in miracles so please please do the honorable thing and resign now! and take that C**t delaney with you

[osarusan]

Agree with a lot of that Raptor, but a couple of points.

1. If the idea is for Stan to fail and leave after this campaign, why give him a 4 year contract?

2. I think that Staunton has to accept his share of the blame. He has played over 100 times for Ireland, he is not a child, and he should have known that this was too much for him, at least at this stage. I am sure that nobody put a gun to his head and forced him to take the job.

[Condex]

Why apply for a job you can't do..

[drinkfeckarse]

"I feel so sorry for Staunton"?? It must be hard alright earning half a million a year and not actually earning it. Not his fault that he was appointed but if he'd had any decency in him, he would've resigned after the match instead of continuing to get paid for something he clearly isn't up to.

[crc]

Delaney and the FAI have a lot to answer for, but that doesn't let Stan off the hook. His team lost to a mediocre Cyprus team. The game was actually there for our taking, but the dreadful organisation as well as lack of concentration cost us. As Aldridge said, its as if we picked our back four and goalie from the first five guys we met on the street. What the hell does Staunton do with them during those training sessions? From Saturday's evidence, it looks like nothing.

[shakermaker1982]

If I'm crap at my job I get sacked - this in turns means I cannot pay my mortgage.

He'll be ok.

[Peadar]

Staunton wasn't "duped" into anything. He applied for a job he couldn't do and was hired by the man with the plan.

He may have thought that there was nothing to it and that he'd figure it out as he went along, but now is the time for him to hold his hand up and admit that he's out of his depth.

[kingp35]

He should definitely be sacked. No manager can keep his job after a result like Saturdays.

One thing is for sure that Stan will not resign because he knows he will never get another management job in football after this utter disaster.

[Block G Raptor]

Staunton wasn't "duped" into anything. He applied for a job he couldn't do and was hired by the man with the plan.

He may have thought that there was nothing to it and that he'd figure it out as he went along, but now is the time for him to hold his hand up and admit that he's out of his depth.

Ok I Know he applied for the job. Delaney must have thought it was christmas, when Stans CV Landed on his desk he'd found his scapegoat and now Stans carrer is in tatters because of "the man with the plan" I feel sorry for stan because had he been given a few years to work his way up through the ranks then he probably would have made a real go of management as it is he's damaged goods and will find it really difficult to resurrect his managerial career from the ashes of this debacle

[Peadar]

...and now Stans carrer is in tatters...

What career?
Delaney was the first person to call Staunton a "Manager."
He didn't have a career in management before this and hopefully wont have one afterwards either.

[Block G Raptor]

What career?
Delaney was the first person to call Staunton a "Manager."
He didn't have a career in management before this
Thats the point I'm Making whatever chance he had of being a manager at some point in the future is now gone because he rushed headlong into a john delaney constructed ambush
Had he stayed in his coaching role at walsall he may or may not someday having gained experiance become a decent or better manager, now there is no chance of that happening. have you ever heard of anyone going from international management to a coaching role with a lower league team? no didn't think so. thats what stan needs to do but i cant see it

[shakermaker1982]

He must have knew he'd be out of his depth. If I went for a group manager or director position at my workplace I'd sink. You need experience. This international football management melarkey is 1000 times the pressure and stress of aforementioned jobs.

Delaney knew Stan would be a) cheap and b) a good yes man.

[DmanDmythDledge]

Stan never applied for the job. He was offered it. I'm sure that the thought never even crossed his mind before that.

[Block G Raptor]

Stan never applied for the job. He was offered it. I'm sure that the thought never even crossed his mind before that.

Yeah thats what I tought

[smellyfeet]

Stan never applied for the job. He was offered it. I'm sure that the thought never even crossed his mind before that.


Staunton still took the job, if he had any brain at all he would have ran a mile or even considered it in a few years time after getting a few years experience at club level.....He has no experience at all but took an International team managers job....In all fairness, he should have a bit of cop on. He more than anyone should have more sence than to take the job cos i'm sure he knows what soccer means to the country....But then again he's a clown........

[Reality Bites]

In real terms, that clown delaney did the equivalent of placing a graduate accountant as a Financial Controller of a Major Company..
Stan was foolish to take the Job and his constant rambling of 2010 being his aimed only serve to prove he is not that intelligent and bought into the interview talk that delaney gave him.... I can't tell you of how tired and sickened I was by those repetitive comments of Stans

[Block G Raptor]

I I can't tell you of how tired and sickened I was by those repetitive comments of Stans
Yep agree 100% with that. we got lucky with the draw we got in the end (look at scotland ffs) and still he wrote off our chances before a ball was kicked no wonder the players don't give a Fcuk when the manager is telling the whole world we'll be crap for three year's to come

[cheifo]

Brave post Block G Raptor.I deard to think of the abuse Stan is going to get after Wed.No he cant to the job but lets not forget his passion and commitment as a player.I cant think for the life of me who will be a suitable choice to take over.John Toshack?:p

[drinkfeckarse]

No he cant to the job but lets not forget his passion and commitment as a player.I

Yeah I mentioned that in another thread. For all his managerial failings he was a great servent for us and doesn't deserve any nasty chants aimed at him.

[Emmet]

And what about Bobby Robson ... is Delaney responsible for his health problems? Staunton took on the job under the impression he'd have a very experienced and respected coach to help him and that's not how things have panned out through noone's fault ... still I do feel for him though because the vast majority of people aren't going to be that sympathetic!

[galwayhoop]

can't see why he would be appointed just to fail in fairness. i know delaney is an eegit but can't see him appointing someone just to fail as there would be no reason for that. the follow on to another humilating result on wednesday could be:

1. low croke park attendances for this campagin:
V san marino, slovakia, cyprus, san marino without the jollies and band wagoners there may be as little as 20,000 for some of the above games especially san marino.

2. seeded 4th or 5th in next campaign therefore no real chance of qualification for 2010. and possible retirements of players hitting their 30's to 'concentrate on club careers' - ie if we aren't going to qualify for major tournaments why waste our time. players approaching that age category in 2 years are duff, keane, dunne & given

3. no manager worth his salt applying for post in the medium-long term.

4. players of an even less standard declaring for us in the future.

in fairness the removal of kerr and subsquent replacement of staunton is beginning to look careless and shortsighted in the extreme but i don't believe that it is malious or pre-planned by delaney and his friends in the fai!!

interesting how the word FAIL contains all three letters of our nation association! wonder what the 'L' stands for?? if i was from cork i'd guess langers

[Peadar]

1. low croke park attendances for this campagin:
V san marino, slovakia, cyprus, san marino without the jollies and band wagoners there may be as little as 20,000 for some of the above games especially san marino.

We're playing San Marino in Lansdowne Road.

[galwayhoop]

yeah sound, but the point is if we have another 'mare tomorrow we will really struggle for a crowd

[Macy]

in fairness the removal of kerr and subsquent replacement of staunton is beginning to look careless and shortsighted in the extreme but i don't believe that it is malious or pre-planned by delaney and his friends in the fai!!
Whatever about the appointment of Staunton, the removal of Kerr was malicious and Delaney and his elements were spinning against Kerr from the time he (Delaney) took up his position in Merrion Square. Kerr wasn't Delaneys choice (he let it be known he was the one on the panel who wanted Bryan Robson), so he was gone by fair means or foul.

The removal of Kerr and the appointment of an inferior manager was incompetent at the very least, before you take into account the claims of bringing in a "World Class" manager - Delaney must take responsibility for this and resign.

[NeilMcD]

Totally agree Macy, good post.

[DonegalDub]

I wrote this for a local paper when Brian Kerr got the chop: it now makes poignant reading:

"The FAI has done it again. Despite the fact that three quarters of the population wanted him to stay on, they have decided, in their collective wisdom, not to award Brian Kerr a new contract. They have forgotten the fact that Ireland has, for too long, enjoyed the success of being a soccer nation that is fighting above its weight.

Blame Jack Charlton. He fed the kids of the 1980s a diet of relative success, nurturing a nation into believing that it had a God-given right to be in the World Cup finals every four years. He created a scenario where his successor was allowed to “manage” the national team for six years without complaint. The media never called for his resignation, despite some woeful results, as they did with Kerr.

It was only when a passionate Roy Keane exposed the charade being carried on by the FAI that things began to go wrong. The tsunami that Jack started finally reached the shore and Brian Kerr was its last victim, as it peters out in the sands of time. The media, influencing the FAI’s mindset as always, had their knives out for Kerr before the Cyprus game. Suddenly, everybody was parroting what they read in the papers, and the Irish team took to the field in Cyprus to defend a manager who had become useless overnight.

That night, Shay Given had so many shots to save that he must have thought the ceasefire in the North was over. Still, we won, but the knife-sharpeners kept honing their blades, joined now by the TV pundits. Brian Kerr failed to qualify the Irish team last Wednesday, yet only lost one game in a ten-match campaign. Such a record would not have got his two predecessors the sack.

He has only lost four games in his entire tenure as Irish manager, but that is not good enough for the new age, post-Genesis FAI suits. Even Roy Keane the Perfectionist must have smiled wryly at the plight of the Irish manager. He probably sealed Kerr’s fate by saying that criticism of him was unfair and unjust, thus annoying the FAI even more, and stoking their ire.

Brian Kerr must wonder where he went wrong. Maybe he should have adapted the bullying tactics of Jack Charlton, which kept everybody in line, especially the FAI and the media. Maybe he should not have made up with Roy Keane, the man who exposed Mick McCarthy and Kerr’s erstwhile employers, the FAI. And maybe he should have mollycoddled the media by allowing them to secretly go on the **** with the squad before matches, as his predecessor had done in Saipan.

The media and pundits, some of them failed managers themselves, talked about Kerr using wrong tactics and ill-advised formations. The bandwagon passengers who then started shouting for Kerr’s head, were people who think that tactics are small minty sweets that came in plastic boxes and that Michael Flatley invented formations for a dance show called Riverdance.

Then we have the attitude taken by the likes of Stephen Carr, who decides at 29 years of age that it’s not worth his while pulling on an Irish shirt again as he will be too old to play in the next World Cup finals. This tells us a lot about the makeup and mindset of the players that Kerr was dealing with. Whatever happened to the pride and passion that players felt when they were picked to represent their country, irrespective of the outcome or whether doing so affected their earning ability over the next five years? Is Brian Kerr the only man who still has such passion? It would seem that this trait was his Achilles’ heel. The FAI, led by a man who by never wanted Kerr in the job anyway, have decided that the most successful Irish manager ever is not good enough to manage a dispassionate Irish senior side anymore.

Brian Kerr’s successor will have to be a peculiar fish. He will have to fall in with the FAI’s way of working or they will isolate him as they did with Kerr. He cannot display too much passion or he will walk the same lonely road that Keane and Kerr now share.

That rules out Martin O’Neill, Alex Ferguson and the other feisty and passionate candidates out there. We are left with the wimps and the has-beens. We all know who they are and God help Irish football when the FAI finally appoint one of them to replace Kerr. "

[Milesmayhem24]

The FAI have left themselves in an awful position. All that sh*te about getting in a 'World Class' manager and we're left with someone with no experience whatsoever. The thing is we're in a worse position now than before - there was hardly a rush for the job last time around but who's going to want it now after that humiliation on Saturday?
Unfortunately, I think we're stuck with Stan. There'd be no point in sacking him with nobody lined up and the only way I can see him doing the honourable thing and resigning is if we get another hammering tomorrow night

[blobbyblob]

Have you forgotten what this jersey really means?

Vincent Hogan
Unison.ie
Tuesday October 10th 2006


Or have you become so comfortable, cosseted and wealthy that you simplyjust don't care anymore?

YOU want to believe that the Disneyfication of footballers' lives doesn't pare away core honesty.

That, behind the obese bank account, there will always remain the essence of a fighter. That the simple purity of competition will never cease to matter, never begin to blur.

But, maybe, that's like wanting to believe in scratch-cards and in e-mails from Nigerian bankers.

How does a young man stay grounded while earning - in a week - more than the national average industrial yearly wage for being unexceptional?

What perspective can he have when his agent gets his groceries?

Some years ago, I interviewed an Irish footballer in London. He had been roughly seven years a full-time professional without ever playing regular, first-team football.

Yet, on the day we met, he had just taken possession of a brand new Porsche. With great delight, he detailed the wonders of his purchase, not for a second seeing paradox in the glow of wealth and the absence of achievement.

Fantasy

Maybe we presume too much with people. We are all part of the fantasy and the lie, you see, paying our Sky Sports standing orders, kitting our children out in shirts uncannily like their old ones, thinking nothing of the Far East hot-houses from where they come, of the sponsors' logos and what they represent, turning a blind eye to the culture of grab.

We are, endlessly, indifferent to the till in the corner.

If young professional footballers aren't the most rounded or accomplished of humans, we can't exactly go around nodding gravely, like it's someone else's crime.

Most players aren't bad people. They just exist in bad environments. They mix with their public only when hurrying from players' entrance to car where, once inside, the privacy glass comes in useful for facilitating a brisk getaway.

Playing for Ireland tended to cut through that nonsense.

Under successive managers like John Giles, Eoin Hand, and Jack Charlton, no-one was allowed play precious in a green tracksuit and, by and large, no-one ever tried.

Supporters and media mingled freely with team.

Some of the lobbies that Charlton's men had to famously wade through were busier than Wall Street trading floors. It wasn't entirely comfortable at times and it wasn't entirely practical.

But, always, there was this sense of union between the team and its people.

The feeling of something shared.

That's gone now.

It slipped away almost imperceptibly over the last decade or so, to be replaced by a green replica of the gated communities that most Premiership clubs have become.

The domain that Steve Staunton stepped into when making his international debut as a player back in 1988 would have been unrecognisable from the one he stepped into as Irish manager last January. Staunton may be no Dylan Thomas with words, but anyone who ever watched him play for his country could never doubt the pride of the man.

Could it be that he is now undermined by an assumption that that kind of pride is commonplace today?

There is, clearly, no reason to believe that he is a master strategist at this level. And he, certainly, doesn't carry Napoleon's luck, given the illness suffered by Bobby Robson.

But, as the zeal for a public lynching begins to heat up, is it not pertinent to ask a few home truths of his players?

Staunton is entitled to ask each and every one today what playing for Ireland actually means to them.

Footballers are polished at using expressions of remorse in times of crisis.

They are good at talking up their guilt without ever, necessarily, absorbing it. However unconvincing Staunton's preparation for last Saturday's game in Nicosia, however dubious his grasp of tactic or formation, when a team spills five to the likes of Cyprus, there's a lot more wrong than gameplan.

Burn at stake

We can burn Staunton at the stake this week if - as is eminently possible - the team falls heavily to the Czech Republic at Lansdowne Road tomorrow. But what then?

When Brian Kerr was jettisoned after the failure to qualify for Germany, it was done on the basis that he hadn't got the ear of the dressing-room. And he clearly hadn't. But are we running the risk of just re-heating lust for managerial blood, while the players, habitually, slip into a comfort zone?

They talk of "individual errors" in a strange, detached way, as if considering something abstract and unexplainable.

But when performance is retarded so consistently by indiscipline, it begs the question "WHY?"

Where does the difficulty arise in concentrating for 90 minutes when to do so is the most basic tenet of your day-to-day employment?

Football isn't complicated. It's about people and the chemistry with which they interact.

Most fundamentally, it is about honesty and moral courage.

You can't but wonder about the competitive hardness of players who earn more in a week that many white collar workers earn in year.

What exactly is their motivation in playing international football? Do they really want to be in Dublin this week?

What connection do they feel for the supporters, beyond the swift, trademark gesture at a final whistle?

In fact, what precisely does that gesture mean when they've just played like udder-heavy cattle?

No apology

This is no apology for Steve Staunton.

He may just happen to be a poor manager with a profoundly weak hand at his disposal. If so, the regime that put him in place should now be as vulnerable to condemnation as the manager himself.

But what of the players? Where is their outrage?

Last Saturday night, they should have been able to deal with what was put in front of them even had Mister Magoo filled in the team-sheet. Instead, their contribution was gauche and insubstantial. Again.

If the jersey means anything to them, perhaps tomorrow they might care to show it.

[kingp35]

Thats a good article but surely its up to the manager and coaching staff to gte the players playing with pride and passion.

[Keithdaly]

Brave post Block G Raptor.I deard to think of the abuse Stan is going to get after Wed.No he cant to the job but lets not forget his passion and commitment as a player.I cant think for the life of me who will be a suitable choice to take over.John Toshack?:p

There are good options outside of the EPL. Two good German coaches are available right now, Ottmar Hitzfeld (2 Champions Leagues with Dortmund and Bayern) and Christoph Daum (Bundesliga with Stuttgart).

[Newryrep]

Ottmar Hitzfeld (2 Champions Leagues with Dortmund and Bayern) and Christoph Daum (Bundesliga with Stuttgart).

keith this is fantasy football. who is practical and affordable ?. I said on a previous post we are not rich and have a ****y climate and are 4th ranked with players that are under performing

[papa-j]

Thats a good article but surely its up to the manager and coaching staff to gte the players playing with pride and passion.

Its up to the manager to motivate the players to play in the manner/formation/tactic he sets out. Its up to the players to have the motivation and moral courage to perform to the best of their ability and win the personal battles on the pitch. Manager and players both failed miseribly.
Personally I think the players have as much if not more to answer for than Staunton. He has proved, without doubt over the years his passion and commitment to Ireland. He always gave 100% and never backed down from a challange. How many players in the current squad can you say that about.
We played Cyprus FFS those 11 players should have had the quality and professional knowhow to win the game with or without a managers input.

[The Swordsman]

Thats a good article but surely its up to the manager and coaching staff to gte the players playing with pride and passion.

Don't agree - that should be there already.

[The Swordsman]

Papa-J

Hit the nail on the head.

[osarusan]

If passion isnt there, I dont think anybody can instill it.

But I dont subscribe to the idea that players lose their passion simply because they get rich.

Anybody who starts playing and continues to play football, at whatever level, does so because they love the game.

And I believe that maintaining that passion is key to being able to reach the heights that professional footballers reach. Without passion, your career wont take off, or will fade away. (for example Nicolas Anelka).

I certainly agree that eircom league players (and those at lower levels) are as passionate about the game as players at the highest level, but it is wrong to think it doesnt work the other way too.

For every player who seems to have lost the passion for the game, I'm sure we can find one who has been passionate throughout a successful career.

[EalingGreen]

...have you ever heard of anyone going from international management to a coaching role with a lower league team? no didn't think so. thats what stan needs to do but i cant see it

Sammy McIlroy abandoned the NI ship after a truly appalling run, to manage a Stockport County team already on the slide. The slide continued and he was sacked. He was out of work for a period, before taking over temporarily at Morecambe FC in the Conference, when his old mate Jimmy Harvey suffered a heart attack. When Harvey recovered, he was not given the chance to resume his old job. McIroy took it permanently and Harvey has not spoken to him since.
On Saturday, Morecambe were beaten 4-0 by bottom of the Conference Crawley Town, in a defeat described by the Official Morecambe Website as "humiliating".

That said, there was some basis for appointing McIlroy to the NI job, considering his success in leading Macclesfield Town into the Football League and Sammy is still arguably a better manager than poor Stan will ever be.

(I've now seen the Cyprus goals, btw. Jaysus, I thought I'd seen some horror stories in 35 years of following NI...:eek: )