Liverpool

[Angus]

What a mess. Looks like Rafa won the political p***ing match with Parry leaving. They put in a very good performance and get a better result on Wednesday but then they play like muppets yesterday.

There is something wrong there - maybe for Liverpool fans sake this is just what they need to get back on the right track (back ? when where they on it ?) but it is not right.

They have one world class player (FT) and one European class player (SG) (let's drop the pretense that SG is world class - he simply isn't - he is a good quality champions league semi final standard player). Then they have 2 or 3 decent players (Alonso, Mascherano, Skyrtel etc)

Apart from that their recruitment has been second rate - and it is not down to money - it is down to abysmal recruitment - Lucas, Benayoun, Ngog - sorry - second rate and they are all rafa signings

His recruitment is poor - his defenders say that he signed these because parry refused to let him have anybody else - pathetic.

They are clearly a top 4 side and a very formidable outfit in europe but it isn't right - there are clearly problems there and the dynamic is wrong - either rafa or gerrard need to leave for this to be made right

OK, had that moment - off sopbox and moving on with life

[centre mid]

I could be wrong but the last player Liverpool produced from their famed youth academy to hold down a consisent place was either Carragher or Gerrard. Thats a major problem for them, they dont have the buying power Chelsea had to buy their league titles. Utd and Arsenal have consistently mixed academy players with buying players, in fact I think Arsenal have actually made a profit in terms of transfer dealings since Wenger has been in control.

The spanish waiter has made some terrible purchases, Andrei Voronin ? come on!

[Stuttgart88]

let's drop the pretense that SG is world class - he simply isn't - he is a good quality champions league semi final standard playerI'm no fan of SG but you're very demanding - ah he's only a CL semi-finalist standard!

I think Alonso is a lovely player.

SG is a funny one. Of course he's a good player but he's not what many say he is. I think he's actually a very unconventional but very effective player. He's by no means a good midfielder in the classic sense but he does make in impact in games. It's hard - much as I'd like to - to deny his infuence on big club games.

He's possibly part of Liverpool's problem. He's not a concventional midfielder so Benitez picks a classic duo, Mascherano & Alonso usually. He was wasted out wide so he's played behind Torres, but at the expense of a second forward.

[brianw82]

He's possibly part of Liverpool's problem. He's not a concventional midfielder so Benitez picks a classic duo, Mascherano & Alonso usually. He was wasted out wide so he's played behind Torres, but at the expense of a second forward.

Gerrard playing behind Torres would be ok, but the problems are still out wide. Riera, although an improvement on whoever was there before (I actually can't remember), is merely adequate. Kuyt is not a right winger. He pops up with the odd important goal, but compare him to Ronaldo, Walcott, Lennon etc, and he's just not at the races. Benayoun is just an uglier Luis Garcia, an incredibly frustrating player. Babel was (is?) a potentially very good attacker whose confidence has been destroyed by spending 2 years on the bench. He really should have gone to Arsenal when they were interested in him.


I could be wrong but the last player Liverpool produced from their famed youth academy to hold down a consisent place was either Carragher or Gerrard. Thats a major problem for them, they dont have the buying power Chelsea had to buy their league titles.

The chapter in Carragher's book on their academy is very good. Decent local players like Warnock being sold and replaced by toss like Aurelio and Dossena? Gimme a break!

Again, the problem is that Benitez has consistently bought bargain-bin players who have not improved the team. He brings in half a dozen or so players a year, and the team stands still. Compare this to Man Utd in 2006. Out with Van Nistelrooy, in with Carrick, and they won the league.

[sligofan4ever]

Liverpool have some great talent in their youth & reserve team but Benitez seems to have faith in youngsters from every other country. The only young player that Benitez brought in that seems to have worked for him is Insua. He's got a truely average team bar about 5-6 players. Dossena,Degen,Ngog,Lucas etc...

[Colbert Report]

Rafa needs to go. To start with, he buys too many unconventional players. Just looking at the current team, he has too many square pegs trying to fit into round holes. Kuyt, Benayoun, etc.

He needs to stop his silly rotational system. The same 4-4-2 should be lining out for all 38 Premiership matches and all Champions League matches.

GK: Reina
LB: Insua
CB: Carragher
CB: Skrtel
RB: Arbeloa/Aurelio (major upgrade needed here)

LW: Riera
CM: Gerrard
CM: Alonso/Mascherano
RW: ??? Aaron Lennon would do the job. Liverpool have the means to buy and pay a top class left winger like Messi or Ronaldo.

ST: Torres
ST: Robbie Keane's name should be here! Kuyt for now.

Too much chopping and changing, too many players playing out of position week in and week out. There is no consistency.

[DeLorean]

He's by no means a good midfielder in the classic sense but he does make in impact in games.

Hello there Mr Giles!!:D very true though!!

[reder]

Liverpool have some great talent in their youth & reserve team but Benitez seems to have faith in youngsters from every other country. The only young player that Benitez brought in that seems to have worked for him is Insua. He's got a truely average team bar about 5-6 players. Dossena,Degen,Ngog,Lucas etc...

Rafa has no faith in the youth system in the club and he has systematically destroyed it over the past few years. No youngster in their right mind would touch the Liverpool academy at the moment because he has no chance whatsoever of breaking into the first team. Everton is the club to join in the North West if you are a young up and coming footballer.

His bahaviour this season as manager of a club with prides itself on conducting its business behind closed doors has been nothing short of disgraceful at times. On many occassions, he has put himself ahead of the club to settle his own scores, Stoke press conference for example. Any man with a single shred of dignity would have waited til the end of the season to discuss his contract. If he did his job and mounted a title challenge or actually won it, he could get anything he wanted in contract terms but he was more interested in using it as a football to settle political scores with the owners and Parry.

His signings and all the signings were his, not Rick Parry's, have been very poor. 69 players have come in and out of the club during his tenure and few have been of any quality. He lays the blame for the likes of Vidic etc not coming to the club with Parry but any player with a brain would go to Man U over Liverpool. Many Liverpool fans blame Parry for the likes of Alves not signing for Liverpool but the player categorically said that he doesnt want to play in England. Also, Rafa has told players not to sign new contracts until he has. Dirk Kuyt, a man who is as honest as the day is long and runs a charity in his spare time admited this.

With Parry gone, Liverpool have taken a step in the right direction towards repair but 4 more need to go to put the club on the right track. The 4 are David Moores, Gillett, Hicks and Rafa (big time). LFC are heading down a slipper slope the longer all 4 of these remain at the club.

[seanfhear]

Rafa has no faith in the youth system in the club and he has systematically destroyed it over the past few years. No youngster in their right mind would touch the Liverpool academy at the moment because he has no chance whatsoever of breaking into the first team. Everton is the club to join in the North West if you are a young up and coming footballer.

His bahaviour this season as manager of a club with prides itself on conducting its business behind closed doors has been nothing short of disgraceful at times. On many occassions, he has put himself ahead of the club to settle his own scores, Stoke press conference for example. Any man with a single shred of dignity would have waited til the end of the season to discuss his contract. If he did his job and mounted a title challenge or actually won it, he could get anything he wanted in contract terms but he was more interested in using it as a football to settle political scores with the owners and Parry.

His signings and all the signings were his, not Rick Parry's, have been very poor. 69 players have come in and out of the club during his tenure and few have been of any quality. He lays the blame for the likes of Vidic etc not coming to the club with Parry but any player with a brain would go to Man U over Liverpool. Many Liverpool fans blame Parry for the likes of Alves not signing for Liverpool but the player categorically said that he doesnt want to play in England. Also, Rafa has told players not to sign new contracts until he has. Dirk Kuyt, a man who is as honest as the day is long and runs a charity in his spare time admited this.

With Parry gone, Liverpool have taken a step in the right direction towards repair but 4 more need to go to put the club on the right track. The 4 are David Moores, Gillett, Hicks and Rafa (big time). LFC are heading down a slipper slope the longer all 4 of these remain at the club.
I believe you have described the position at LFC very accurately.

[Pike B]

As a lifelong red I feel I have to add to this thread. My feelings are simply, Rafa has to go. He is far too arrogant and hard headed to accept that he is very often wrong.
Madrid was a brilliant example of what he does so well, whilst Saturday showed he will never, ever win the Premier League. His decisions were shocking and I personally hope this is his last season at Anfield. He'll always be the man who delivered us our fifth European Crown, but it's going to take a change to break Fergusons grip on the League.

Rafa out..

My 11 every Prem game(where possible of course)
1:Reina
2:Carragher(yes I'd have him right back)
3:Insua(Easily the best of the three)
4:Agger(Benitez is blind to his talent)
5:Skrtel(Solid next to Agger)
6:Mascherano
7:Benayoun(Not a winger but skillful and dangerous runner)
8:Alonso(Our best player full stop)
9:Torres
10:Gerrard(In the Platini Role)
11:Riera

Subs: Cavilieri, Arbeloa, Aurelio, Hyppia, Babel, New Midfielder, New Striker..

Sell: Dossena, Kuyt, Ngog, Lucas(All to Bolton)

[old git]

As a lifelong red I feel I have to add to this thread. My feelings are simply, Rafa has to go. He is far too arrogant and hard headed to accept that he is very often wrong.
Madrid was a brilliant example of what he does so well, whilst Saturday showed he will never, ever win the Premier League. His decisions were shocking and I personally hope this is his last season at Anfield. He'll always be the man who delivered us our fifth European Crown, but it's going to take a change to break Fergusons grip on the League.

Rafa out..

My 11 every Prem game(where possible of course)
1:Reina
2:Carragher(yes I'd have him right back)
3:Insua(Easily the best of the three)
4:Agger(Benitez is blind to his talent)
5:Skrtel(Solid next to Agger)
6:Mascherano
7:Benayoun(Not a winger but skillful and dangerous runner)
8:Alonso(Our best player full stop)
9:Torres
10:Gerrard(In the Platini Role)
11:Riera

Subs: Cavilieri, Arbeloa, Aurelio, Hyppia, Babel, New Midfielder, New Striker..

Sell: Dossena, Kuyt, Ngog, Lucas(All to Bolton)

Sell: Dossena, Kuyt, Ngog, Lucas(All to Bolton)... even bolton would not sign these 4 :D:D

[manuman]

Lads looking at liverpool you have to agree that they are just not good enough,Gerrard is over rated, Torres, alonso both are class acts,carragher needs replacing fast.He's a brilliant defender but just hasnt the legs anymore, Get rid of Benitez and I think mourinho would be very interested in taking the job, who would you have mourinho or Jose???

[manuman]

Would rafa have o shea,gibson, or evans?? he would not look twice at them yet look at o shea all he has won and look at the player fergie turned him into.

[reder]

Get rid of Benitez and I think mourinho would be very interested in taking the job, who would you have mourinho or Jose???

If LFC ever want to seriously challenge for the title, they need JM in charge. Hiddink is probably the only other manager good enough to challenge Sir Alex but he is with Chelsea and will probably stay there for a while yet. With Hiddink in charge I can see Chelsea challenging United next season. If Rafa stays I can see LFC slipping out of the CL places with United, Chelsea, Villa (stronger than this season) and Arsenal finishing ahead. Man City will always kick into action next season I think and push for Europe. They are only 1 or 2 players off being a very good side.


Would rafa have o shea,gibson, or evans?? he would not look twice at them yet look at o shea all he has won and look at the player fergie turned him into.

No Rafa doesnt bother with academy players. He would rather waste a few million of some continental muck and blame it on the owners or Parry. O' Shea is a fantastic utility player and you need players like him if you are gonna win the league. He can slot in RB, LB, CB or even midfield and do a solid job. Evans has come on leaps and bounds this year and looks a class act. He will figure more and more as the seasons move on for united. Gibson is being groomed by united for when the likes of scholes moves on.

[jmurphyc]

If LFC ever want to seriously challenge for the title, they need JM in charge.

You talk about Rafa washing the club's dirty linen in public and then you say that Mourinho needs to be in charge? Mourinho is one of the worst managers at public outbursts. He'd hardly keep quiet. He may help Liverpool challenge for the title, but firstly I doubt he would come. He's always been at a club that is close to, or the best, club in the country and been able to supplement that with expensive recruits. Liverpool are completely broke, so what makes you think he'd be a success?

Quite simply, Rafa should have at least one transfer window without the incompetence of Rick Parry at the club to see what he can do. The amount of targets that have been lost partly at a result of Parry is ridiculous: Vidic, Simao, Dani Alves, etc. There's plenty more. In fact, you can probably even count Ronaldo on that list too (though he was before Rafa's time).

The club is a mess off the field and no manager would be able to come in and magically guarantee the club a title. Liverpool are steadily getting better under Benitez and time is the only cure for Liverpool's current woes.

[DeLorean]

Liverpool are steadily getting better under Benitez and time is the only cure for Liverpool's current woes.

04/05 5th in PL and Champions League winners

05/06 3rd in PL and FA Cup winners

06/07 3rd in PL and trophyless

07/08 4th in PL and trophyless

Probably looking at 3rd in PL this season I'd imagine and Champions League who knows? Not sure if they actually are steadily improving but they are definitely more difficult to beat than ever. However they are probably easier than ever to get a draw against!!

[jmurphyc]

04/05 5th in PL and Champions League winners

05/06 3rd in PL and FA Cup winners

06/07 3rd in PL and trophyless

07/08 4th in PL and trophyless

Probably looking at 3rd in PL this season I'd imagine and Champions League who knows? Not sure if they actually are steadily improving but they are definitely more difficult to beat than ever. However they are probably easier than ever to get a draw against!!

Well, Rafa has got quite a similar points total to what Wenger did when he first arrived at Arsenal, yet he won the league in 97/98. The difference is though, that the title is far harder to win now. The average points it takes to win the English league over the last 5 seasons is 90.4. That's a massive total. The timing of Rafa's arrival in England certainly hasn't helped him.

[gaiscíoch]

You talk about Rafa washing the club's dirty linen in public and then you say that Mourinho needs to be in charge? Mourinho is one of the worst managers at public outbursts. He'd hardly keep quiet. He may help Liverpool challenge for the title, but firstly I doubt he would come. He's always been at a club that is close to, or the best, club in the country and been able to supplement that with expensive recruits. Liverpool are completely broke, so what makes you think he'd be a success?.

Well Chelsea werent exactly running United to wire when Mourinho took over? He turned turned them into champions not Ranieri not Abramovich not that baldy headed t****r Kenyon? Nor was it John Terry for that matter. He gave them the belief. I don't think the Liverpool players feel the kind of team spirit Mourinho generated at Chelsea. Benitez is a dry nasty bitter man. He lost the plot not the players.


Quite simply, Rafa should have at least one transfer window without the incompetence of Rick Parry at the club to see what he can do. The amount of targets that have been lost partly at a result of Parry is ridiculous: Vidic, Simao, Dani Alves, etc. There's plenty more. In fact, you can probably even count Ronaldo on that list too (though he was before Rafa's time).?.

Sure he could have taken Vidic but wouldn't have bothered giving him the time he needed to settle before lobbing him in there and destroying his confidence. United or Liverpool tough decision really. Grand you could have taken Simao but he has been a disaster at every big club he went to he was booted out of Barcelona.
Alves said he had no intention of playing in England. Again Liverpool or Barcelona? tough one again?
You can't count Ronaldo United have a agreement with Sporting regarding young players he was always destined for United.


The club is a mess off the field and no manager would be able to come in and magically guarantee the club a title. Liverpool are steadily getting better under Benitez and time is the only cure for Liverpool's current woes.

How long has Benitez been in charge is obious he is a ignorant man. He lobbed Robbie Keane out the door without even blinking to make his point to Rick Parry. Had a huge arguement with Paco Ayesteran who walked away who was one of his best alloys. He sacked Steve Heighway who was after winning back to back FA youth cups because he sadi he could do a better job himself?
He wont play his best defender Daniel Agger because he said he would move if he didn't get his money.
Then he tells Kuyt not to sign a new contract until he does?
He wants to walk away and on Wednesday last he confirmed he will be the new boss at Real.

[shakermaker1982]

Liverpool are a good cup side. Draw away from home in Europe and it's a good result. Draw in the League and you've just dropped two points to a team like Man Utd that can win 10 games on the bounce no bother. 1 world class player and a few very good players does not win you a League title. Two new full backs, two wingers and a couple more strikers would the route I'd take if I was a Liverpool Manager from next season. Loving how the Hansen's, Gray's and broadsheet writers have all changed their tune now since Liverpool went into freefall......especially after hyping the Scousers around Christmas time about how it was going to be their year :) Any sane pundit should realise by now that you do not write off Manchester United. I must say that if Hiddink had the Chelsea job at the start of August and had a fit Essien then the title race would be going down to the wire again.....thankfully he didn't.

[jmurphyc]

Well Chelsea werent exactly running United to wire when Mourinho took over? He turned turned them into champions not Ranieri not Abramovich not that baldy headed t****r Kenyon? Nor was it John Terry for that matter. He gave them the believe. I don't think the Liverpool players feel the kind of team spirit Mourinho generated at Chelsea. Benitez is a dry nasty bitter man. He lost the plot not the players.
Chelsea finished on 80 points before Jose arrived. That's hardly a poor total. They were on an upward curve at the time, but there's no doubt that Mourinho did an excellent job with them in the league. However, he had an immense amount of money to spend. As I said, he's never had to work with a club that isn't close to being champions, and a limited budget and deliver them the title. Chelsea were getting closer under Ranieri and it's not as though they were a mess when he arrived.

Anyway, how exactly has Benitez "lost the plot"? If you're referring to his rant, it was clearly a calculated move, and wasn't him losing the plot.



Sure he could have taken Vidic but wouldn't have bothered giving him the time he needed to settle before lobbing him in there and destroying his confidence. United or Liverpool tough decision really. Grand you could have taken Simao but he has been a disaster at every big club he went to he was booted out of Barcelona.
Alves said he had no intention of playing in England. Again Liverpool or Barcelona? tough one again?
You can't count Ronaldo United have a agreement with Sporting regarding young players he was always destined for United.

Liverpool came in long before United did with Vidic. Vidic himself said that he was very close to moving to Liverpool, but Liverpool took ages to sort everything out, by which time United came in. Had Liverpool been quicker, he would have been at Anfield. He also, most likely, would have been given the time to come good. Lucas, Babel and Dossena are all players who have had time to prove themselves.

Alves went to Barcelona last summer, long after Liverpool were interested. The deal was almost complete, but again it broke down due to incompetence. Alves was ready to move to Liverpool.

Ronaldo could have signed for Liverpool. Both Liverpool and Arsenal had the opportunity to sign him a few months before United came in. Wenger turned down the chance, citing him as too expensive, whereas Liverpool were interested only, once again, for them to take far too long to complete the deal. Then United came in.




How long has Benitez been in charge is obious he is a ignorant man. He lobbed Robbie Keane out the door without even blinking to make his point to Rick Parry. Had a huge arguement with Paco Ayesteran who walked away who was one of his best alloys. He sacked Steve Heighway who was after winning back to back FA youth cups because he sadi he could do a better job himself?
He wont play his best defender Daniel Agger because he said he would move if he didn't get his money.
Then he tells Kuyt not to sign a new contract until he does?
He wants to walk away and on Wednesday last he confirmed he will be the new boss at Real.
All of that is mindless conjecture. You have very little facts to go on. Nobody knows exactly why Ayestaran left. Agger is currently injured, and has been for quite a bit this season. I've never heard anything about him telling Kuyt not to sign a new contract.

As for the last sentence, do you have a source for that? I haven't heard anything about that whatsoever. As far as I can recall, the bookmakers stopped taking bets on Benitez leaving, and Rafa had to deny that he was and said he didn't know why the story that he was came about.

[DeLorean]

Well, Rafa has got quite a similar points total to what Wenger did when he first arrived at Arsenal, yet he won the league in 97/98. The difference is though, that the title is far harder to win now. The average points it takes to win the English league over the last 5 seasons is 90.4. That's a massive total. The timing of Rafa's arrival in England certainly hasn't helped him.

I don't really buy into that though to be honest. The reason the points totals have got higher is because the gap between the big clubs and the smaller clubs has got bigger. If Liverpool are to be seen as one of these big clubs then they must beat these points totals, simple as that. If anything the league has got easier to win because u can accululate a huge points total by just beating the teams u should be beating on pretty much perfect pitches around the country unlike before.

[jmurphyc]

I don't really buy into that though to be honest. The reason the points totals have got higher is because the gap between the big clubs and the smaller clubs has got bigger. If Liverpool are to be seen as one of these big clubs then they must beat these points totals, simple as that. If anything the league has got easier to win because u can accululate a huge points total by just beating the teams u should be beating on pretty much perfect pitches around the country unlike before.

Fair enough. I disagree, but it's difficult to prove it one way or the other. However, Liverpool finished on 60 points the season before he arrived. They weren't really established in the big four and had they made the wrong move, they wouldn't have done so. Rafa has now, pretty much, firmly established them in it. They generally qualify for the Champions League with relative ease.

Newcastle were their closest challenges back when Rafa arrived. JHad they not got the right manager in they could potentially have ended up as a better version of Newcastle, yet they didn't and managed to keep pace with the rest of the top four (not all of them, but they generally finish above, or close to at least one of them).

[DeLorean]

Chelsea finished on 80 points

You love your points total arguments but things change from season to season. The clubs have to meet the standards that are set. If a club is relegated on 40 pts it will be no consolation to them that that would have kept them up the year before.

[jmurphyc]

You love your points total arguments but things change from season to season. The clubs have to meet the standards that are set. If a club is relegated on 40 pts it will be no consolation to them that that would have kept them up the year before.

Of course things change. But points show improvement in my opinion. If you get 20 points and stay up and the following season you get 40 points but go down, it's improvement. It just means that others have improved too. Chelsea finishing on 80 points at least shows that they weren't that far off a potential title. Mourinho was hardly taking over a bad team. The season before he arrived, they finished ahead of United. By the time he left, they were behind United.

[DeLorean]

Of course things change. But points show improvement in my opinion. If you get 20 points and stay up and the following season you get 40 points but go down, it's improvement. It just means that others have improved too. Chelsea finishing on 80 points at least shows that they weren't that far off a potential title. Mourinho was hardly taking over a bad team. The season before he arrived, they finished ahead of United. By the time he left, they were behind United.

Ya I wasn't really disagreeing with you in relation to the United Chelsea side of things I just don't think points totals are particularly useful when judging a teams progress. League positions are all that matters. Benitez is judged by who close he gets Liverpool to United and Chelsea/or whoever. If United get 60 pts and Liverpool win the lge with 61 then he has done well. If United get 95 and Liverpool get 80 then it's poor cos u have to ask where did those 15/16 points go missing if United were able to amount that total.

[jmurphyc]

Ya I wasn't really disagreeing with you in relation to the United Chelsea side of things I just don't think points totals are particularly useful when judging a teams progress. League positions are all that matters. Benitez is judged by who close he gets Liverpool to United and Chelsea/or whoever. If United get 60 pts and Liverpool win the lge with 61 then he has done well. If United get 95 and Liverpool get 80 then it's poor cos u have to ask where did those 15/16 points go missing if United were able to amount that total.

Well we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think extra points represents progress and is a better indicator of how a team will do in future. For example, if you finish 2nd but 30 points off the leaders, you're less likely to be able to progress than someone who finishes 4th but 5 points off the leaders. Also, there's not much you can do if a team wins the league with 100 points, only to keep on improving. If you get 50 points, then 60, then 70, and then 80 I'd think that constitutes massive progress, irrespective of where you finish.

Anyway, I'll leave it at that and just say we'll have to agree to disagree.

[DeLorean]

Well we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think extra points represents progress and is a better indicator of how a team will do in future. For example, if you finish 2nd but 30 points off the leaders, you're less likely to be able to progress than someone who finishes 4th but 5 points off the leaders. Also, there's not much you can do if a team wins the league with 100 points, only to keep on improving. If you get 50 points, then 60, then 70, and then 80 I'd think that constitutes massive progress, irrespective of where you finish.

Anyway, I'll leave it at that and just say we'll have to agree to disagree.

I love the way you start and finish your point with we'll agree to disagree and in between give a big example on why you think you're right!!;)

I agree with the agree to disagree bit though about the relevance of points.

Bottom line Liverpool not good enough, haven't improved enough and aren't in a position to improve much more with the players they have atm.

[jmurphyc]

I love the way you start and finish your point with we'll agree to disagree and in between give a big example on why you think you're right!!;)

I agree with the agree to disagree bit though about the relevance of points.

Bottom line Liverpool not good enough, haven't improved enough and aren't in a position to improve much more with the players they have atm.

Fair enough.

However....

(just kidding) :p

[Macy]

Everton is the club to join in the North West if you are a young up and coming footballer.
I wouldn't say that, United have players coming through, and even if they don't make it there they usually go on to play at a high level. city, for the time being at least have people coming through.

It's laughable him blaming torres injuries though - if only they had a proven premier league striker to fall back on.

Bottom line though is that football has moved on from when the Anfield Machine was capable of grinding out league titles - they'd need the back pass rule rescinded.

[gustavo]

Sell: Dossena, Kuyt, Ngog, Lucas(All to Bolton)... even bolton would not sign these 4 :D:D

I think Lucas has the ability to be a top class player , Unfortunately I think he left South America a bit too early , still expect him to come good

[DeLorean]

I think Lucas has the ability to be a top class player , Unfortunately I think he left South America a bit too early , still expect him to come good

Is this a joke:confused: I'm not saying that you are wrong, I'm just saying that on the evidence of what has been seen so far there is absolutely nothing to suggest that he has the ability to be anything other than second rate. And tbh I haven't even seen evidence that he might make the step up to second rate so u can discard that.

[jmurphyc]

I think Lucas has the ability to be a top class player , Unfortunately I think he left South America a bit too early , still expect him to come good

Plus, Dossena has started to play better in recent months. He's been decent since around December. He hasn't been fantastic, but pretty good overall since then. The problem is that most of the good crosses he gets into the box are wasted as Liverpool don't attack in great enough numbers.

[DeLorean]

Plus, Dossena has started to play better in recent months. He's been decent since around December. He hasn't been fantastic, but pretty good overall since then. The problem is that most of the good crosses he gets into the box are wasted as Liverpool don't attack in great enough numbers.

Ah now I know that's a joke:pgood one though

What's next lads, El Zhar man of the match at the Riverside?

[jmurphyc]

Ah now I know that's a joke:pgood one though

What's next lads, El Zhar man of the match at the Riverside?

The only particularly poor game he's had since then was Hull. He's getting better, but whether it's still good enough is questionable.

[DeLorean]

The only particularly poor game he's had since then was Hull. He's getting better, but whether it's still good enough is questionable.

Hull was particularly brutal alright. He made your man Mendy look like Messi that day!!!

[gustavo]

Is this a joke:confused: I'm not saying that you are wrong, I'm just saying that on the evidence of what has been seen so far there is absolutely nothing to suggest that he has the ability to be anything other than second rate. And tbh I haven't even seen evidence that he might make the step up to second rate so u can discard that.

I'm just saying I believe he has the ability , I think he's at the wrong club at the wrong time

[gaiscíoch]

I'm just saying I believe he has the ability , I think he's at the wrong club at the wrong time

So are the other 32 players :D :D.
Bottom line is Liverpool will finish 3rd and they won't win the champions league. They are no closer to United than they were when Houllier was in charge.
Lucas I do think will end up being a good player maybe in Spain or Italy but not in England.

[reder]

I'm just saying I believe he has the ability , I think he's at the wrong club at the wrong time

I dont think he is up to the grade but you do have a point in relation to players at LFC as a whole.

I think the likes of Babel arent in the right environment to grow and develope as players. I have absolutely no doubt that if Babel went to the likes of Arsenal he would be a far better player than he is now. He tried to move to Ajax at xmas so he could play football but Rafa blocked it.

I find it amazing that no one has questioned, in the media etc, why all these strikers have come to the club over the past 5 seasons and failed. Kuyt had a brilliant record in the dutch league and struggles badly to get goals in the PL under Rafa. I dont expect him to bang in 20+ goals but there is something seriously wrong if a player goes from scoring 20+ and 29 in Dirk's case to single figures. Robbie Keane is a proven 20+ goals a PL season striker and we all know what happened there when he was on the field.

Also, this whole signing players business. I said it before and i'll say it again, its too easy to blame Parry for the mess. He was/is useless but Rafa signed those players. If he did get the likes of Alves etc, what difference is it gonna make? No fullback under Rafa is allowed to "bomb on" in his current system, so he will just be another negative defender.

Also, the pro-Rafa front will bang on about signing players who distinctly said they have no interest in playing for the club. Alves for example clearly started that he does not want to play in England. Also, the Vidic fax story is rubbish.

[osgood was good]

Whatever you may think about Liverpool's title challenge and recent results , were very Lucky to be sitting in second position. We've won games where we should have drawn lucky to get all 3 points last night and right now i'd back Liverpool to beat us again .
Last night v Portsmouth we rode our luck , yes we had chances first half but they were a better side for lage parts of the game . The results paper over the cracks .

[KK77]

4-1 fact!!!!!!

[gaiscíoch]

Still 3rd in the league......
Fact!!!!!

[De Town]

4-1 fact!!!!!!

yup, 4 points clear, 1 game in hand..

[KK77]

Still 3rd in the league......
Fact!!!!!

Ahh can't take the defeat FACT!

[Monster]

Good article - dispels a few myths about benitez's spending at Liverpool

I've tried in the past, but the media misinformation continues to gather pace like some ill-founded rumour. It's dangerous, because it causes unjust criticism.

Let's make one thing clear: Liverpool have nowhere near the most expensive squad in the Premiership.

No. Where. Near.

Indeed, there are three clubs who have spent at least 50 per cent more on their current squad than Liverpool.

Shocked? Well, you should be if you believe what's spouted out on TV. But it's true. And one of the clubs is not a name you'd necessarily expect.

It doesn't help that some people – such as Jamie Redknapp last night – focus on Rafa's gross spend, rather than the net amount. Effectively, this means counting all the right-backs he's bought as one big outlay, rather than looking at how he's replaced one with another for roughly the same £2m fee.

Working with just the gross spend, you add the £2m of Josemi to the £2m value of Kromkamp (even though it was a swap), to the £2.6m paid for Arbeloa. But none of these players were at the club at the same time, and each was traded to get to the point where an outright success was secured, as happened with the final purchase.

So even though the total cost of getting Arbeloa was just the £2.6m paid, people will use a figure almost three times as high. That is illogical.

(Another note, Jamie: Liverpool have three right-backs on the books, not just one; but the promising Darby, like Arbeloa, was injured and Degen has had a first season ruined by various ailments. So it's wrong to criticise the manager for an unbalanced squad and playing a midfielder out of position when three right-backs are unavailable.)

It's like the housing market: you don't just go in and buy a mansion straight from school. (Okay, so maybe some footballers do, but not the normal people of this world. As someone stuck with renting, I'm speaking generally here!)

You start with an affordable house; you then use the money from selling that to buy your next property. Most people can only get to own a big house having traded their way up over a number of years.

Yet when someone asks how much you spent on your house, you don't add all the houses you've ever bought together, do you?

If you own a £220,000 house, you don't say £470,000 because you add the £90,000 starter home and the £160,000 step up. That would be moronic.

According to the excellent and reliable www.LFCHistory.net, Rafa's gross spend is approximately £188m, but his net spend is only £108m, given that around £80m has been recouped.

(I'd hazard a guess that a large proportion of the £108m net spend has also been recouped through Champions League progress rewards, particularly with the Reds being the top-ranked team based on his five-year tenure.)

So it's easy to pluck a figure of '£195m' from the air, live on air, and make it seem like that should make a team champions, or ultra-close challengers.

But it's only the cost of the current squad that counts. Because that's all a manager can choose from; he can't go back in time and select a player he sold in order to trade up, just as you can't just turn up to one of your old houses and let yourself in.

You simply cannot add Rafa having spent £5.8m on Sissoko to the £18m on Mascherano, because the two were never part of the same set-up; one was bought and sold for a profit, and as with a house, the money reinvested in a step-up. If Sissoko isn't bought and then sold, Mascherano probably doesn't arrive.

Is that really too tough to grasp?

From my own experience in writing 'Dynasty', I can attest that researching transfer fees is never easy, given the amount of undisclosed fees and various add-ons (for various things, like appearances, trophies won, national caps and the cultivation of unexpectedly daring hairstyles).

But taking each fee as the most a club has expect to pay when add-ons are activated, I've calculated the cost of the most expensive squads in the league, and listed them below.

(Note: while it's impossible to be 100 per cent accurate with the figures in the public domain, I'd say that overall it's at least 95 per cent of the true amount, and with rival teams I've actually been generous and excluded a couple of players whose cost just isn't listed anywhere I could find.)

The most expensive squads (excluding players out on long-term loan) are as follows:

Chelsea £207m
Manchester United £206m*
Spurs £188m
Manchester City £140m
Liverpool £127m

(*£226m if Carlos Tevez's deal made permanent, given that it is initially a unique two-year £10m agreement, and very different from 99.9 of transfer deals. Effectively United are winning games with a £30m player.)

So what does this tell us?

Let's start with the leaders. United's squad contains the most home-grown players, such as Giggs, Scholes, Neville, O'Shea, Brown and Fletcher, who all arrived for free.

So that shows that it is a long-established core supplemented by a lot of expensive signings added one by one to a unified collection. In other words, classic, spot-on building of a squad when already established at the very top.

But it shows that even if you work with the unfair use of Rafa's gross spend, it still doesn't match what Ferguson has spent on his current squad, let alone those who have been bought and sold for record fees in the past.

And this is utterly, utterly critical, and beyond the grasp of some people who cannot analyse things with common sense.

After all, what does it matter how much Rafa has spent since 2004 if Ferguson is currently fielding players like Ferdinand (£30m) and Ronaldo (£12.8m) who were bought before then?

Isn't Rafa – in the real world – competing with a team whose construction started well before he arrived?

Unless Ferguson is banned from fielding players like Ferdinand and Ronaldo (which would be illogical), or forced to start from scratch in 2004 (again illogical), it is not a fair comparison, is it? – I mean, come on, use your brain for a second here.

After all, how much as Harry Redknapp spent since he took over at Spurs? I make it almost £50m. How much has Rafa spent since Harry Redknapp took over at Spurs? Nothing. But only a nutter would compare the two in this deeply skewed way.

Rafa has been in his job about 25 times as long as Harry, so you obviously wouldn't dare compare their teams. And yet Ferguson has been in his job about five times as long as Rafa, and yet the Spaniard is expected to have Liverpool as champions by now.

Chelsea and Spurs are actually the more interesting examples in many ways. I knew Spurs had spent a lot, but to have a current squad that cost almost £200m shocked me. Add together the cost of Bentley, Pavyluchenko, Palacios, Bale, Defoe, Bent, Keane and Modric and you more-or-less end up with the cost of Liverpool's entire squad.

I could be sarcastic – or media-style sensationalistic – and say that with that much spent, any manager should be able to win almost all of his matches, but it wouldn't be fair or logical. It's far more complex than that, and even a good manager like Redknapp has his work cut out.

Chelsea and Spurs have had seven managers between them since 2007. This means different men making expensive signings and ending up with a mixed squad. Based on expenditure, both of these clubs are massively underachieving this season. Almost certainly to blame for that is the hierarchy having itchy fingers when it comes to firing managers.

Of course, this analysis doesn't include wages, either. You don't get the very top players in the world without also having to pay them a king's ransom. Michael Ballack must be most expensive free transfer ever, with wages reported to be around £130,000 a week, or about £30m over five years. Again, Liverpool are no way near the highest payers, either.

So there you have it. By all means print it out and pass it around; 'pass it on', as the saying goes, including to those in the media who could do with reading it. By all means quibble over some of the finer details, as there is a tolerance of a few percent on the accuracy of the figures, but the overall gist is very much sound and robust.

[Angus]

A Tour de Force - nice post

Clearly my original post in this thread has spurred Liverpool into life - they have had one super performance and 2 super results in the last 10 days - well done.

Do they have enough to win one of the proper trophies ? Not sure - better chance of them winning the CL - and by the way - lets drop the pretense - the CL is the priority.



Good article - dispels a few myths about benitez's spending at Liverpool

I've tried in the past, but the media misinformation continues to gather pace like some ill-founded rumour. It's dangerous, because it causes unjust criticism.

Let's make one thing clear: Liverpool have nowhere near the most expensive squad in the Premiership.

No. Where. Near.

Indeed, there are three clubs who have spent at least 50 per cent more on their current squad than Liverpool.

Shocked? Well, you should be if you believe what's spouted out on TV. But it's true. And one of the clubs is not a name you'd necessarily expect.

It doesn't help that some people – such as Jamie Redknapp last night – focus on Rafa's gross spend, rather than the net amount. Effectively, this means counting all the right-backs he's bought as one big outlay, rather than looking at how he's replaced one with another for roughly the same £2m fee.

Working with just the gross spend, you add the £2m of Josemi to the £2m value of Kromkamp (even though it was a swap), to the £2.6m paid for Arbeloa. But none of these players were at the club at the same time, and each was traded to get to the point where an outright success was secured, as happened with the final purchase.

So even though the total cost of getting Arbeloa was just the £2.6m paid, people will use a figure almost three times as high. That is illogical.

(Another note, Jamie: Liverpool have three right-backs on the books, not just one; but the promising Darby, like Arbeloa, was injured and Degen has had a first season ruined by various ailments. So it's wrong to criticise the manager for an unbalanced squad and playing a midfielder out of position when three right-backs are unavailable.)

It's like the housing market: you don't just go in and buy a mansion straight from school. (Okay, so maybe some footballers do, but not the normal people of this world. As someone stuck with renting, I'm speaking generally here!)

You start with an affordable house; you then use the money from selling that to buy your next property. Most people can only get to own a big house having traded their way up over a number of years.

Yet when someone asks how much you spent on your house, you don't add all the houses you've ever bought together, do you?

If you own a £220,000 house, you don't say £470,000 because you add the £90,000 starter home and the £160,000 step up. That would be moronic.

According to the excellent and reliable www.LFCHistory.net, Rafa's gross spend is approximately £188m, but his net spend is only £108m, given that around £80m has been recouped.

(I'd hazard a guess that a large proportion of the £108m net spend has also been recouped through Champions League progress rewards, particularly with the Reds being the top-ranked team based on his five-year tenure.)

So it's easy to pluck a figure of '£195m' from the air, live on air, and make it seem like that should make a team champions, or ultra-close challengers.

But it's only the cost of the current squad that counts. Because that's all a manager can choose from; he can't go back in time and select a player he sold in order to trade up, just as you can't just turn up to one of your old houses and let yourself in.

You simply cannot add Rafa having spent £5.8m on Sissoko to the £18m on Mascherano, because the two were never part of the same set-up; one was bought and sold for a profit, and as with a house, the money reinvested in a step-up. If Sissoko isn't bought and then sold, Mascherano probably doesn't arrive.

Is that really too tough to grasp?

From my own experience in writing 'Dynasty', I can attest that researching transfer fees is never easy, given the amount of undisclosed fees and various add-ons (for various things, like appearances, trophies won, national caps and the cultivation of unexpectedly daring hairstyles).

But taking each fee as the most a club has expect to pay when add-ons are activated, I've calculated the cost of the most expensive squads in the league, and listed them below.

(Note: while it's impossible to be 100 per cent accurate with the figures in the public domain, I'd say that overall it's at least 95 per cent of the true amount, and with rival teams I've actually been generous and excluded a couple of players whose cost just isn't listed anywhere I could find.)

The most expensive squads (excluding players out on long-term loan) are as follows:

Chelsea £207m
Manchester United £206m*
Spurs £188m
Manchester City £140m
Liverpool £127m

(*£226m if Carlos Tevez's deal made permanent, given that it is initially a unique two-year £10m agreement, and very different from 99.9 of transfer deals. Effectively United are winning games with a £30m player.)

So what does this tell us?

Let's start with the leaders. United's squad contains the most home-grown players, such as Giggs, Scholes, Neville, O'Shea, Brown and Fletcher, who all arrived for free.

So that shows that it is a long-established core supplemented by a lot of expensive signings added one by one to a unified collection. In other words, classic, spot-on building of a squad when already established at the very top.

But it shows that even if you work with the unfair use of Rafa's gross spend, it still doesn't match what Ferguson has spent on his current squad, let alone those who have been bought and sold for record fees in the past.

And this is utterly, utterly critical, and beyond the grasp of some people who cannot analyse things with common sense.

After all, what does it matter how much Rafa has spent since 2004 if Ferguson is currently fielding players like Ferdinand (£30m) and Ronaldo (£12.8m) who were bought before then?

Isn't Rafa – in the real world – competing with a team whose construction started well before he arrived?

Unless Ferguson is banned from fielding players like Ferdinand and Ronaldo (which would be illogical), or forced to start from scratch in 2004 (again illogical), it is not a fair comparison, is it? – I mean, come on, use your brain for a second here.

After all, how much as Harry Redknapp spent since he took over at Spurs? I make it almost £50m. How much has Rafa spent since Harry Redknapp took over at Spurs? Nothing. But only a nutter would compare the two in this deeply skewed way.

Rafa has been in his job about 25 times as long as Harry, so you obviously wouldn't dare compare their teams. And yet Ferguson has been in his job about five times as long as Rafa, and yet the Spaniard is expected to have Liverpool as champions by now.

Chelsea and Spurs are actually the more interesting examples in many ways. I knew Spurs had spent a lot, but to have a current squad that cost almost £200m shocked me. Add together the cost of Bentley, Pavyluchenko, Palacios, Bale, Defoe, Bent, Keane and Modric and you more-or-less end up with the cost of Liverpool's entire squad.

I could be sarcastic – or media-style sensationalistic – and say that with that much spent, any manager should be able to win almost all of his matches, but it wouldn't be fair or logical. It's far more complex than that, and even a good manager like Redknapp has his work cut out.

Chelsea and Spurs have had seven managers between them since 2007. This means different men making expensive signings and ending up with a mixed squad. Based on expenditure, both of these clubs are massively underachieving this season. Almost certainly to blame for that is the hierarchy having itchy fingers when it comes to firing managers.

Of course, this analysis doesn't include wages, either. You don't get the very top players in the world without also having to pay them a king's ransom. Michael Ballack must be most expensive free transfer ever, with wages reported to be around £130,000 a week, or about £30m over five years. Again, Liverpool are no way near the highest payers, either.

So there you have it. By all means print it out and pass it around; 'pass it on', as the saying goes, including to those in the media who could do with reading it. By all means quibble over some of the finer details, as there is a tolerance of a few percent on the accuracy of the figures, but the overall gist is very much sound and robust.

[van der wheil]

A Tour de Force - nice post

Clearly my original post in this thread has spurred Liverpool into life - they have had one super performance and 2 super results in the last 10 days - well done.

Do they have enough to win one of the proper trophies ? Not sure - better chance of them winning the CL - and by the way - lets drop the pretense - the CL is the priority.

I see from your thread starting post you know more about the game then zidane.

[Roadend]

Looks like a Paul Yawnkins the super red article.

[shakermaker1982]

http://transferleague.co.uk/

net spend since 2004 according to this website has Liverpool in third place.

[Macy]

http://transferleague.co.uk/

net spend since 2004 according to this website has Liverpool in third place.
Or put another way, the scousers are trying to dispel myths by creating new ones?

[KK77]

Or put another way, the scousers are trying to dispel myths by creating new ones?

One myth they dispeled was Man U are untouchable;):D