Liverpool

[Norm]

O'Niell,:confused:

Just a suggestion. He has done good work at Villa on limited resources.

I honestly think Rafa has done all he can with this Liverpool side. They need a change, their squad is far to weak to compete at the top end of the premiership. It might even be wise to get rid of Rafa now and find someone to steady the ship for the rest of the season, similar to what Chelsea done last season.

The big danger is losing Torres. Another season without a medal, which is realistically what this season will be, and Fernando will start to see greener grass. Who could blame him? he is 25 years old and probably the best striker in the world at the moment, he will not wait around forever.

Lose Torres and its curtains. Rafa has had 5 years to build a team and all he has is Torres & Gerrard. Every other player is easily replaced and I would go as far to say that they could be replaced by players currently playing outside of the top 4 in the Premiership.

[KK77]

Just a suggestion. He has done good work at Villa on limited resources.

I honestly think Rafa has done all he can with this Liverpool side. They need a change, their squad is far to weak to compete at the top end of the premiership. It might even be wise to get rid of Rafa now and find someone to steady the ship for the rest of the season, similar to what Chelsea done last season.

The big danger is losing Torres. Another season without a medal, which is realistically what this season will be, and Fernando will start to see greener grass. Who could blame him? he is 25 years old and probably the best striker in the world at the moment, he will not wait around forever.

Lose Torres and its curtains. Rafa has had 5 years to build a team and all he has is Torres & Gerrard. Every other player is easily replaced and I would go as far to say that they could be replaced by players currently playing outside of the top 4 in the Premiership.

Fair play mate some good points there. Nice and constructive instead of trying to get sly digs in with name calling etc. Very good point on Torres am worried myself. Just think it would be crazy to get of Rafa now. I'd prefer to see the season out as nothing is won or lost in October. As regards O'Neill i think you will find he has spent a serious amount at Villa during his time.

[reder]

There are numerous options out there for replacements i.e. O'Niell, Mourihno. The right offer could tempt any of them. The team that lined out against Sunderland on Sat was a joke considering that money that has been made available to him.

MON is progressing Villa as a club. He is no fool and there is no way on earth that he is going to leave Villa, a club on the up, with a solid owner behind him in Lerner for the circus that is LFC as of late. The 11 individuals on Saturday fielded for LFC had the ability to beat that Sunderland team. The resulting performance was the issue.

[Roo69]

Pot, Kettle & Black!!!!

Disgraceful - have a read for yourself your a big boy now.

Becoming boring now being honest lets leave it alone.

Good lad, absolutely 100% what i expected you to respond with. Big man hiding behind your very creative name calling having sly liitle digs trying to insult me - says it all about you really.

It's a shame you can't have a proper conversation anytime i have anything to say about Liverpool or Bray for that fact. I gave you reasons and names yet you have no come back but insulting.

And what is it you call Sir Alex Ferguson ? remind me....

[KK77]

Good lad, absolutely 100% what i expected you to respond with. Big man hiding behind your very creative name calling having sly liitle digs trying to insult me - says it all about you really.

It's a shame you can't have a proper conversation anytime i have anything to say about Liverpool or Bray for that fact. I gave you reasons and names yet you have no come back but insulting.

And what is it you call Sir Alex Ferguson ? remind me....

Would you ever go and get lost following me around the site. So it's alright for you to insult people and get digs in but not others. Best to leave it now.

[KK77]

The 11 individuals on Saturday fielded for LFC had the ability to beat that Sunderland team. The resulting performance was the issue.

Agree with you to a certain extent reder. Do you not think Jay Spearing was hung out to dry? I felt he should have been playing alongside an experienced player like Mascherano and he would have got on a lot better. He seemed nervous to me. But at the same time only one way to get experience. Also while we all try to give players a chance and time i feel Babels time is surely up. For £11 million and now in his third season surely we could have expected more? On a positive side good to see Agger back. Third game in two weeks maybe he's not made of glass:D

[reder]

Agree with you to a certain extent reder. Do you not think Jay Spearing was hung out to dry? I felt he should have been playing alongside an experienced player like Mascherano and he would have got on a lot better. He seemed nervous to me. But at the same time only one way to get experience. Also while we all try to give players a chance and time i feel Babels time is surely up. For £11 million and now in his third season surely we could have expected more? On a positive side good to see Agger back. Third game in two weeks maybe he's not made of glass:D

I totally agree with you on Spearing. Even when we are playing well, any trip to the North East is always tough. I was amazed with the midfield partnership on Saturday and Lucas is the last player I would have liked to see Spearing play with in his first major PL game. Rafa should be playing him against the likes of Hull at home who couldnt beat their way out of a wet paper bag. If he played in a fixture like that, he would gain experience and grow in confidence. Cattermole gave him an awful time on Saturday. Lucas was never going to stand up to Cattermole, we all know that, so it was left to Jay. I have a horrible feeling that Rafa will now say that he has given Jay his chance and he hasnt taken it, if you know what I mean.

Babel just winds me up so much. A player with obvious natural talent who just wont/cant apply himself. I can see him leaving at Xmas, if any decent bid comes in. The decent bid is the issue because only a fool would pay anything near £11.5m for him. He isnt even worth half that in my opinion. His contract is up in 2012 also.

Looking at the first 11 as a whole they should have still got something from that game. There were enough experienced players there. They didnt even try. It was a replica of Boro away last season. I have no problem with a team not winning, its the not trying that I cant accept.

[Roo69]

Would you ever go and get lost following me around the site. So it's alright for you to insult people and get digs in but not others. Best to leave it now.

Not at all ! I'm replying to posts on a public forum, which i believe is the idea of this site, if you don't like what i have to say then don't reply to me, simple as that. Block me even so you don't see my posts, otherwise deal with them.

A lot of people on here would name "pet" names for players and manager - you call Sir Alex Ferguson - Whiskey Nose, i call Rafa Benetiz - The Fat Spanish Waiter but there is just no need to personally call eachother names, rather childish and no need for it. As i've said, if you don't like what i have to say about Liverpool, Bray, Ireland or what ever it may be on here then just dont reply to it.

[KK77]

Not at all ! I'm replying to posts on a public forum, which i believe is the idea of this site, if you don't like what i have to say then don't reply to me, simple as that. Block me even so you don't see my posts, otherwise deal with them.

A lot of people on here would name "pet" names for players and manager - you call Sir Alex Ferguson - Whiskey Nose, i call Rafa Benetiz - The Fat Spanish Waiter but there is just no need to personally call eachother names, rather childish and no need for it. As i've said, if you don't like what i have to say about Liverpool, Bray, Ireland or what ever it may be on here then just dont reply to it.

Ok lets just leave it as i said before. Agree childish.

[Norm]

MON is progressing Villa as a club. He is no fool and there is no way on earth that he is going to leave Villa, a club on the up, with a solid owner behind him in Lerner for the circus that is LFC as of late. The 11 individuals on Saturday fielded for LFC had the ability to beat that Sunderland team. The resulting performance was the issue.

Fair enough.

Maybe the 11 individuals that lined out for LFC had the ability to beat Sunderland, but this is indicitave of how far they have fallen. Without their big two players LFC are a very very ordinary side with players "capable of beating Sunderland". There are far tougher challenges this season for LFC, aspirations for league and european success, their reliance on two players to overcome these challenges is their achilles heel.

I think that there are alot of better balanced teams in the premiership at the moment and on current form Sunderland are one of them. Spurs, Villa & Arsenal are streets ahead of LFC and this is as a direct result of proper management and clever purchases.

[KK77]

I totally agree with you on Spearing. Even when we are playing well, any trip to the North East is always tough. I was amazed with the midfield partnership on Saturday and Lucas is the last player I would have liked to see Spearing play with in his first major PL game. Rafa should be playing him against the likes of Hull at home who couldnt beat their way out of a wet paper bag. If he played in a fixture like that, he would gain experience and grow in confidence. Cattermole gave him an awful time on Saturday. Lucas was never going to stand up to Cattermole, we all know that, so it was left to Jay. I have a horrible feeling that Rafa will now say that he has given Jay his chance and he hasnt taken it, if you know what I mean.

Babel just winds me up so much. A player with obvious natural talent who just wont/cant apply himself. I can see him leaving at Xmas, if any decent bid comes in. The decent bid is the issue because only a fool would pay anything near £11.5m for him. He isnt even worth half that in my opinion. His contract is up in 2012 also.

Looking at the first 11 as a whole they should have still got something from that game. There were enough experienced players there. They didnt even try. It was a replica of Boro away last season. I have no problem with a team not winning, its the not trying that I cant accept.

Crazy thing is Spearing was on the bench against Burnley and possibly Hull though not 100% on that. Remember thinking at 2-0 against Burnley bring him on.

As regards Babel your right just doesn't seem to want to make an effort. The way he carrys himself it's like it's an effort. He has pace, strength, decent shot, good leap in the air. A parting of the ways is inevitable. A wasted talent.

Boro away last season your giving me nightmares now! Worst away trip of the season FACT:D

[reder]

Boro away last season your giving me nightmares now! Worst away trip of the season FACT:D

I did go to Bolton last season before my retirement and that is always a depressing experience no matter what the result is. :D However, the derby at Goodison in 2006 will forever be the worst for me.

[Play_On]

thats it benitez has to go the club is falling apart he is a disgrace

[Roadend]

thats it benitez has to go the club is falling apart he is a disgrace

Have you considered following a sport where you understand what's going on? Maybe Bowls would be more your cup of tea.

[reder]

Have you considered following a sport where you understand what's going on?

Can you elaborate?

[Roadend]

Can you elaborate?

Not really, there's any number of reasons why play_on felt the need to make such a ridiculous comment. I don't know how his mind works, but based on that comment I'd imagine his time would be better invested in supporting something else.

[Norm]

Not really, there's any number of reasons why play_on felt the need to make such a ridiculous comment. I don't know how his mind works, but based on that comment I'd imagine his time would be better invested in supporting something else.

To be fair the whole scenario is a circus. I agree with Play_on. I firmly believe Rafa has been afforded adequate time and money to build a team and he is no closer to a league title then he was 5 years ago. He has two players, one inhereted, the rest wouldn't get a look in at Arsenal, Man Utd or Chelsea.
Veronin & Eggnog still getting game time whilst castasides Keane & Crouch score regularly for club and country.

If it wasn't true it would be funny.

[jebus]

5 mistakes Rafa has made in the past few seasons

1. Airing Liverpool's dirty laundry in public. Turns the club into a bit of a joke tbf
2. Hounding out Alonso for Barry, who he didn't even manage to sign
3. Selling Robbie Keane after 5 months at the club when their main striker is injury prone
4. Shelling out 37m this summer on one injury prone Italian who isn't worth 20m anyway and 17m on a right back who can't defend when the squad needed that money spent on about 5 good players to re-enforce it
5. Just his level of hits to misses in the transfer market is ridiculous. Liverpool have spent the money, just not wisely

Personally I think Liverpool need a change of direction, this season they look like they did in Houllier' s last season in charge, that said top quality coaches are hard to come by these days

[KK77]

Beach Ball Bonanza this coming Sunday on the cards.

[John83]

4. Shelling out 37m this summer on one injury prone Italian who isn't worth 20m anyway...
It would seem they agree with your valuation, having spent £17M on him.

[jebus]

It would seem they agree with your valuation, having spent £17M on him.

Really!? 3 million less wasted!?!

I take it back, In Rafa We Trust :rolleyes:

[4tothefloor]

5 mistakes Rafa has made in the past few seasons

1. Airing Liverpool's dirty laundry in public. Turns the club into a bit of a joke tbf
2. Hounding out Alonso for Barry, who he didn't even manage to sign
3. Selling Robbie Keane after 5 months at the club when their main striker is injury prone
4. Shelling out 37m this summer on one injury prone Italian who isn't worth 20m anyway and 17m on a right back who can't defend when the squad needed that money spent on about 5 good players to re-enforce it
5. Just his level of hits to misses in the transfer market is ridiculous. Liverpool have spent the money, just not wisely

Personally I think Liverpool need a change of direction, this season they look like they did in Houllier' s last season in charge, that said top quality coaches are hard to come by these days

1. I agree in a sense but at the same time Benitez was provoked in to it due to the Americans public criticism, attempt at recruiting the awful Jurgen Klinsmann and also lack of support in the transfer market.

2. He did not hound out Alonso. Alonso was a pile of $hite for 2 solid seasons at which point Benitez decided it was time for a change. That change was Barry, but it fell through (lack of support in transfer market). Alonso then decided himself that he wanted to return to Spain, mainly at the behest of his wife and their newborn. He then went on to have his best season in a Liverpool shirt but still maintained his desire to leave. Benitez failed to sign Barry because of Rick Parry and the yanks, and Parry has since got the boot.

3. Robbie Keane was a huge mistake by Benitez in the first place and he did well to amend it by shipping him back from where he came. At least he had the balls to do it rather than try and save face. I saw Keane quite a few times for Liverpool and he was rubbish. Apparently he wouldn't (or couldn't) follow the instructions Benitez was giving to him which is why he kept getting taken off. He sold Keane with the promise that he could re-invest the funds but guess what? Yep, the yanks gobbled up the money.

4. He did not shell out €37m this summer. That's utter nonsense.
First off the Glenn Johnson transfer was only possible because Pompey owed Liverpool £7m from the Peter Crouch deal. He also sold Arbeloa, who Johnson was replacing, to Real for £3m and Sebastian Leto to Olympiakos for £3m. So the actual outlay for Johnson was £4m.
He sold Xabi Alonso for £30m and replaced him with Aquilani for £17m. He received the £30m up front from Real, yet the Aquilani money is spread over 5 years. So a profit of £13m there.
Bare in mind that (a) he received no budget whatsoever from the yanks this season - he had to raise all the money himself and (b) He didn't see a penny of the Robbie Keane money to re-invest as promised. He made a profit of over £10m (he sold some youngsters too) yet he was only given a miserly £2m to spend on a defensive back up (Kyrgiakos) when he wanted to sign Ryan Shawcross.

5. Ridiculous statement. Benitez had to replace an entire squad that he inherited from Houllier, and also the youth academy. He had to do this on a shoestring budget. Because he had to do it on a budget, there was no quick fix and it was a project that had to be done over time. The quality of player he could sign was dictated by his budget, thus the Pennant's, Bellamy's etc. At various times Benitez had deals agreed for Dani Alves, Simao, Nemanja Vidic and Pato but all fell through due to lack of finances. He had no choice, he could not go out and buy the quality that Chelsea and Man U could buy. He still cannot do this. I'll point out that when Dirk Kuyt was signed for £10m, he was signed with a personal loan given to the club by the then chairman David Moores. This is the sort of stuff Benitez has had to deal with.

Jebus, you need to do a bit more research before you form opinions. I'm not Rafa Benitez's biggest fan, the man drives me mad at times. However I take exception to a lot of the bull$hit stories and myths that the media spouts about him. It's ridiculous. If the media focused half the energy they afford to Benitez on the hypocrite Ferguson at Utd they'd fill a lot more columns that's for sure. Stop reading the tabloids and do a bit of research. You could do no worse by starting here: http://tomkinstimes.com/2009/10/my-day-with-crisis-hit-benitez/

By the way, Aquilani will be twice the player Alonso is. And you can quote me on that ;)

[Macy]

He also sold Arbeloa, who Johnson was replacing, to Real for £3m and Sebastian Leto to Olympiakos for £3m. So the actual outlay for Johnson was £4m.
He sold Xabi Alonso for £30m and replaced him with Aquilani for £17m. He received the £30m up front from Real, yet the Aquilani money is spread over 5 years. So a profit of £13m there.
Hopefully Rafa stays (I definitely trust him!), but this is pure rubbish. Whatever about the crouch money, netting off other sales to somehow say Johnson only cost 4million is utter nonsense. How the money is paid matters nothing into how much Aquilani cost. Using your logic, Valencia cost United nothing because of the money that came in for Ronaldo.

[Roadend]

3. Robbie Keane was a huge mistake by Benitez in the first place

Benitez did not want to sign Robbie Keane at all, it was Parry's meddling that saw Keane come in.

[endabob1]

There are so many inaccuracies in that I don't reall know where to start but I'll tackle the Alonso one first.
Benitez very publicly tried to hound Alonso out with a view to getting Barry (a vastly inferior player imo), to say Alonso was "a pile of $hite" for 2 seasons is either the ramblings of a madman or someone who doesn't quite understand the role of the water carrier.

The convienient "netting" of sales values has been dealt with but I think it was well known Liverpool had to sell to buy this summer, a lot of clubs were in the same position but regardless of where the money was coming from it was still 17m for a right back who can't defend, with other ares in need of strenghtening that to me was an astonishingly bad deal for Liverpool.
He didn't see a penny of the Robbie Keane money because Liverpool made a loss on the deal, they bought him for Circa 20m in August and sold him back to Spurs for less in January, clearly there were a lot if clauses etc & stage payments etc but from the release Spurs made to the LSE (which as a listed club they are legally bound to do) Spurs certainly did not finish down on the deal.
The backroom politics going on has had an obvious effect on funds for players but Benitez has had 4 seasons (and I don't subscribe to the belief that he had to build a whole new squad) and in that time the turnover of players is phenomenal but his biggest sin is the players he has alienated in that time;
Peter Crouch.. I fail to see what he did wrong at Liverpool, scored goals gave them a plan b, offloaded.
Steve Finnan, solid dependable right back, alienated for the inferior Arbeloa & then offloaded
His treatment of Keane was shocking, I know the politics that were going on but when Liverpool ended up without Torres & Gerrard at different points in the 2nd half of last season Keane would have given them an edge that they lacked. I'm not saying they would have won the league by keepng Keane but he would be a better option than either of their back up strikers.

[Roadend]

There are so many inaccuracies in that I don't reall know where to start


You should really have started by not posting a wholly inaccurate post.

[John83]

Really!? 3 million less wasted!?!

I take it back, In Rafa We Trust :rolleyes:
It's twenty million less than you suggested. But hey, let's not quibble over pocket change.

[Longfordian]

He meant 37 million splashed out on Aquilani and Johnson but he didn't phrase it all that well to be fair. Sorry jebus.

[old git]

1. I agree in a sense but at the same time Benitez was provoked in to it due to the Americans public criticism, attempt at recruiting the awful Jurgen Klinsmann and also lack of support in the transfer market.

2. He did not hound out Alonso. Alonso was a pile of $hite for 2 solid seasons at which point Benitez decided it was time for a change. That change was Barry, but it fell through (lack of support in transfer market). Alonso then decided himself that he wanted to return to Spain, mainly at the behest of his wife and their newborn. He then went on to have his best season in a Liverpool shirt but still maintained his desire to leave. Benitez failed to sign Barry because of Rick Parry and the yanks, and Parry has since got the boot.

3. Robbie Keane was a huge mistake by Benitez in the first place and he did well to amend it by shipping him back from where he came. At least he had the balls to do it rather than try and save face. I saw Keane quite a few times for Liverpool and he was rubbish. Apparently he wouldn't (or couldn't) follow the instructions Benitez was giving to him which is why he kept getting taken off. He sold Keane with the promise that he could re-invest the funds but guess what? Yep, the yanks gobbled up the money.

4. He did not shell out €37m this summer. That's utter nonsense.
First off the Glenn Johnson transfer was only possible because Pompey owed Liverpool £7m from the Peter Crouch deal. He also sold Arbeloa, who Johnson was replacing, to Real for £3m and Sebastian Leto to Olympiakos for £3m. So the actual outlay for Johnson was £4m.
He sold Xabi Alonso for £30m and replaced him with Aquilani for £17m. He received the £30m up front from Real, yet the Aquilani money is spread over 5 years. So a profit of £13m there.
Bare in mind that (a) he received no budget whatsoever from the yanks this season - he had to raise all the money himself and (b) He didn't see a penny of the Robbie Keane money to re-invest as promised. He made a profit of over £10m (he sold some youngsters too) yet he was only given a miserly £2m to spend on a defensive back up (Kyrgiakos) when he wanted to sign Ryan Shawcross.

5. Ridiculous statement. Benitez had to replace an entire squad that he inherited from Houllier, and also the youth academy. He had to do this on a shoestring budget. Because he had to do it on a budget, there was no quick fix and it was a project that had to be done over time. The quality of player he could sign was dictated by his budget, thus the Pennant's, Bellamy's etc. At various times Benitez had deals agreed for Dani Alves, Simao, Nemanja Vidic and Pato but all fell through due to lack of finances. He had no choice, he could not go out and buy the quality that Chelsea and Man U could buy. He still cannot do this. I'll point out that when Dirk Kuyt was signed for £10m, he was signed with a personal loan given to the club by the then chairman David Moores. This is the sort of stuff Benitez has had to deal with.

Jebus, you need to do a bit more research before you form opinions. I'm not Rafa Benitez's biggest fan, the man drives me mad at times. However I take exception to a lot of the bull$hit stories and myths that the media spouts about him. It's ridiculous. If the media focused half the energy they afford to Benitez on the hypocrite Ferguson at Utd they'd fill a lot more columns that's for sure. Stop reading the tabloids and do a bit of research. You could do no worse by starting here: http://tomkinstimes.com/2009/10/my-day-with-crisis-hit-benitez/

By the way, Aquilani will be twice the player Alonso is. And you can quote me on that ;)

4tothefloor why are ye pool fans obsesed by man u... once again ye have to let rip at utd and hypocrite ferguson ?? what did ferguson
inherit at utd !!! he struggled for 3-4 years with teams & players .. got rid of big players / brought youth team players through .. rebuilt 2-3 united teams .. and in the process of building another new team and that's without mentioned their little bit of success during his time :D

[gaiscíoch]

2. He did not hound out Alonso.

You think offering him to Arsenal and Juve would have put the hounding out bit to bed?


3. Robbie Keane was a huge mistake by Benitez in the first place and he did well to amend it by shipping him back from where he came.

Buying Robbie Keane was a huge mistake by Rick Parry not Benitez. However if Benitez had the best interests of the club at heart why sell him half way through a season where they could have won the league.



5. Ridiculous statement. Benitez had to replace an entire squad that he inherited from Houllier, and also the youth academy.

Houlliers squad won him the Champions League did it not. As for the youth academy I suppose sacking Steve Heighway went down well with all you Liverpool fans. A man who had won the Youth cup three times in a row?
Thing is he likes doing it alone he fell out with Ayestran his trusted side kick because he didn't agree with one decision.

He has brought Liverpool into disripute.
Fernando Torres
Robbie Keane
Ryan Babel
Xabi Alonso
Dirk Kuyt
Albert Riera
Andrea Dossena
Peter Crouch
Lucas Leiva
Jermaine Pennant
Martin Skrtel
Craig Bellamy
Luis Garcia
Jose Reina
Dan Agger
Mohammed Sissoko
Fernando Morientes
Yossi Benayoun
Diego Cavalieri
Alvaro Arbeloa
Sebastian Leto
Jose Miguel Gonzalez
Gabriel Paletta
Mark Gonzalez
David Ngog
Scott Carson
Mikel San Jose
David Martin
Antonio Barragan
Besian Idrizaj
Jack Hobbs
Alex Cooper
Alexander Kacaniklic
Krisztian Nemeth
Andras Simon
Victor Palsson
Gary Mackay Steven
Vitor Flora
Andriy Voronin
Nikolay Mihaylov
Emmanuel Mendy
Marvin Pourie
Dani Pacheco
Nikola Saric
Lauri Dalla Valle
Gerardo Bruna
Hakan Duyan
Damien Plessis
Peter Gulacsi
Charles Itandje
Philipp Degen
Vincent Lucas
Ryan Crowther
Mihail Alexandrov
Robbie Fowler
Ryan Wilkie
Javier Mascherano
Miki Roque
Nabir El Zhar
Mark Smyth
Jay Smith
Stephen Darby
Craig Lindfield
Adam Hammill
Danny Guthrie
Paul Anderson
Lee Peltier
Fabio Aurelio
Jan Kromkamp
Boudewijn Zenden
Mauricio Pellegrino
Godwin Antwi
Robbie Threlfall
Ryan Flynn
Calum Woods
Paul Willis
Danny O'Donnell
Ramon Calliste
Steve Irwin
Martin Kelly
Ronald Huth
Jordy Brouwer
Francisco Manuel Duran
Emiliano Insua
Ray Putterill
Martin Hansen
Jay Spearing
Dave Roberts
David Mannix
All his signings how many of them have done anything? There is reason why he souldn't have full control and all the above are it.....

You give out about Ferguson his first 5 years comprised of Viv Anderson Brian Mc Clair Steve Bruce, Lee Sharpe, Mal Donaghy Jim Leighton, Ralph Mine, Mark Hughes, Guilano Mairoana, Mike Phelan, Gary Pallister, Neill Webb, Brian Carey, Danny Wallace, Paul Ince, Dennis Irwin, Les Sealey, Neil Withworth, Andrei Kanchelskis, Peter Schmeichel, Paul Parker, Dion Dublin, Pat Mc Gibbon and last but certainly not least Eric Cantona.

That's how you build success even with a notoriously tight chairman Martin Edwards....

[4tothefloor]

Benitez did not want to sign Robbie Keane at all, it was Parry's meddling that saw Keane come in.
Incorrect and it was confirmed in a recent online Q&A session by Tony Barrett that Keane was requested by Benitez. Barry was his first choice, Keane his second.


There are so many inaccuracies in that I don't reall know where to start but I'll tackle the Alonso one first.
Benitez very publicly tried to hound Alonso out with a view to getting Barry (a vastly inferior player imo), to say Alonso was "a pile of $hite" for 2 seasons is either the ramblings of a madman or someone who doesn't quite understand the role of the water carrier.

The convienient "netting" of sales values has been dealt with but I think it was well known Liverpool had to sell to buy this summer, a lot of clubs were in the same position but regardless of where the money was coming from it was still 17m for a right back who can't defend, with other ares in need of strenghtening that to me was an astonishingly bad deal for Liverpool.
He didn't see a penny of the Robbie Keane money because Liverpool made a loss on the deal, they bought him for Circa 20m in August and sold him back to Spurs for less in January, clearly there were a lot if clauses etc & stage payments etc but from the release Spurs made to the LSE (which as a listed club they are legally bound to do) Spurs certainly did not finish down on the deal.
The backroom politics going on has had an obvious effect on funds for players but Benitez has had 4 seasons (and I don't subscribe to the belief that he had to build a whole new squad) and in that time the turnover of players is phenomenal but his biggest sin is the players he has alienated in that time;
Peter Crouch.. I fail to see what he did wrong at Liverpool, scored goals gave them a plan b, offloaded.
Steve Finnan, solid dependable right back, alienated for the inferior Arbeloa & then offloaded
His treatment of Keane was shocking, I know the politics that were going on but when Liverpool ended up without Torres & Gerrard at different points in the 2nd half of last season Keane would have given them an edge that they lacked. I'm not saying they would have won the league by keepng Keane but he would be a better option than either of their back up strikers.
And my post was 'wholly inaccurate'? :p I love your logic and maths too. Keane basically cost Liverpool about £4m in the end. Explain to me where the remaining budget of £16m disappeared to?? Logically the budget would still be there, just to be reassigned elsewhere.... Alonso was shocking for two seasons, and had a renaissance last season.


You think offering him to Arsenal and Juve would have put the hounding out bit to bed? He tried to sell Alonso two seasons ago. He failed and beyond that there was no hounding out. He did not want to sell him this summer.

Houlliers squad won him the Champions League did it not. As for the youth academy I suppose sacking Steve Heighway went down well with all you Liverpool fans. A man who had won the Youth cup three times in a row?
Thing is he likes doing it alone he fell out with Ayestran his trusted side kick because he didn't agree with one decision.
Benitez won that Champions League with his tactics. Liverpool did not get past the likes of Juventus, Chelsea and AC Milan due to the talents of Djibril Cisse and Milan Baros... Steve Heighway won 2 youth cups but was replaced because the standard of player was not up to scratch in terms of graduating to the first team. The jury is still out on the academy, but Heighway failed to produce any top youngsters in recent times so the new set up can only improve on that.

He has brought Liverpool into disripute.
Fernando Torres
Robbie Keane
Ryan Babel
Xabi Alonso
Dirk Kuyt
Albert Riera
Andrea Dossena
Peter Crouch
Lucas Leiva
Jermaine Pennant
Martin Skrtel
Craig Bellamy
Luis Garcia
Jose Reina
Dan Agger
Mohammed Sissoko
Fernando Morientes
Yossi Benayoun
Diego Cavalieri
Alvaro Arbeloa
Sebastian Leto
Jose Miguel Gonzalez
Gabriel Paletta
Mark Gonzalez
David Ngog
Scott Carson
Mikel San Jose
David Martin
Antonio Barragan
Besian Idrizaj
Jack Hobbs
Alex Cooper
Alexander Kacaniklic
Krisztian Nemeth
Andras Simon
Victor Palsson
Gary Mackay Steven
Vitor Flora
Andriy Voronin
Nikolay Mihaylov
Emmanuel Mendy
Marvin Pourie
Dani Pacheco
Nikola Saric
Lauri Dalla Valle
Gerardo Bruna
Hakan Duyan
Damien Plessis
Peter Gulacsi
Charles Itandje
Philipp Degen
Vincent Lucas
Ryan Crowther
Mihail Alexandrov
Robbie Fowler
Ryan Wilkie
Javier Mascherano
Miki Roque
Nabir El Zhar
Mark Smyth
Jay Smith
Stephen Darby
Craig Lindfield
Adam Hammill
Danny Guthrie
Paul Anderson
Lee Peltier
Fabio Aurelio
Jan Kromkamp
Boudewijn Zenden
Mauricio Pellegrino
Godwin Antwi
Robbie Threlfall
Ryan Flynn
Calum Woods
Paul Willis
Danny O'Donnell
Ramon Calliste
Steve Irwin
Martin Kelly
Ronald Huth
Jordy Brouwer
Francisco Manuel Duran
Emiliano Insua
Ray Putterill
Martin Hansen
Jay Spearing
Dave Roberts
David Mannix
All his signings how many of them have done anything? There is reason why he souldn't have full control and all the above are it.....
I agree that he has signed an awful lot of $hite players and Benitez himself would be the first to admit that. However, you cannot buy a rolex with a minimum wage....You know yourself how inflated the prices are for English players. Benitez does not have that sort of money therefore he has to gamble.

You give out about Ferguson his first 5 years comprised of Viv Anderson Brian Mc Clair Steve Bruce, Lee Sharpe, Mal Donaghy Jim Leighton, Ralph Mine, Mark Hughes, Guilano Mairoana, Mike Phelan, Gary Pallister, Neill Webb, Brian Carey, Danny Wallace, Paul Ince, Dennis Irwin, Les Sealey, Neil Withworth, Andrei Kanchelskis, Peter Schmeichel, Paul Parker, Dion Dublin, Pat Mc Gibbon and last but certainly not least Eric Cantona.
Where did I give out about Ferguson and his purchases???



4tothefloor why are ye pool fans obsesed by man u... once again ye have to let rip at utd and hypocrite ferguson ?? what did ferguson
inherit at utd !!! he struggled for 3-4 years with teams & players .. got rid of big players / brought youth team players through .. rebuilt 2-3 united teams .. and in the process of building another new team and that's without mentioned their little bit of success during his time :D
Not infatuated with Utd at all mate, Utd though seem infatuated with "knocking Liverpool off their perch" re the 18 titles and 5 European Cups :rolleyes: I made reference to him being a hypocrit, which he is. Here, I'll give you an example. Last season Ferguson attacked Benitez for apparently calling Everton a "small club" in a derogatory way. Load of bull$hit. Benitez never actually even said this. Yet Fergie turns around this season and labels Man City a "joke" of a club and also called them a "small club with a small mentality" (http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/sport/420953/Alex-Ferguson-blasts-City-United-boss-vows-pay-back-after-taunt.html). You couldn't make it up! Did Fergie get the same level of Media coverage as 'Rafa's rant' as it was called? No chance. He attacked Alan Wiley last week when things went against him, yet at the Manc derby he was cracking jokes with him when injury time went in his favour. That's rant number two this season already for Fergie. That's what I was referring to regarding Fergie in the context of the current media coverage on Benitez. Nothing more, and certainly no infatuation

[Monkfish]

If the media focused half the energy they afford to Benitez on the hypocrite Ferguson at Utd they'd fill a lot more columns that's for sure.

Reporting on what trophys Sir has won this week got a bit boring 10 years ago. Rafa's a tabloids dream.

[old git]

Incorrect and it was confirmed in a recent online Q&A session by Tony Barrett that Keane was requested by Benitez. Barry was his first choice, Keane his second.


And my post was 'wholly inaccurate'? :p I love your logic and maths too. Keane basically cost Liverpool about £4m in the end. Explain to me where the remaining budget of £16m disappeared to?? Logically the budget would still be there, just to be reassigned elsewhere.... Alonso was shocking for two seasons, and had a renaissance last season.




Not infatuated with Utd at all mate, Utd though seem infatuated with "knocking Liverpool off their perch" re the 18 titles and 5 European Cups :rolleyes: I made reference to him being a hypocrit, which he is. Here, I'll give you an example. Last season Ferguson attacked Benitez for apparently calling Everton a "small club" in a derogatory way. Load of bull$hit. Benitez never actually even said this. Yet Fergie turns around this season and labels Man City a "joke" of a club and also called them a "small club with a small mentality" (http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/sport/420953/Alex-Ferguson-blasts-City-United-boss-vows-pay-back-after-taunt.html). You couldn't make it up! Did Fergie get the same level of Media coverage as 'Rafa's rant' as it was called? No chance. He attacked Alan Wiley last week when things went against him, yet at the Manc derby he was cracking jokes with him when injury time went in his favour. That's rant number two this season already for Fergie. That's what I was referring to regarding Fergie in the context of the current media coverage on Benitez. Nothing more, and certainly no infatuation

ferguson has been doing this for years and will continue untill he retires..
but he is not the only so called hyprocite .. benetiz has made a few attacks on fellow managers / clubs referee's latest attack on phil dowd on intervew after recent match he was asked to comment on ref benetiz removes his glasses from top pocket looks through them & then puts them away ( hardly got a mention in the media by the way :confused: and f.a. let him off also ) nobody mentioned 18 league titles or 5 european cups so why bring it up .. i always find it strange on this liverpool thread man utd are always brought into posts:
unfortunatly benetiz is current target for media is due to liverpools run of defeats and his not so great realionship with american owners so it was always going to happen

[shakermaker1982]

Why are Liverpool fans so obsessed with Fergie?

The media have tried taking on Fergie but failed. The guy is untouchable. His record speaks for itself and journalists now realise they are wasting their time trying to take on the king of football management. Benitez is an easy target because he's at a big club and they are struggling. Do people forget how much pressure Fergie was under when Mourinho won two PL titles in a row for Chelsea? The journalists wrote him off and ended up with egg on their faces. They are now a little reluctant to take him on.

I'm looking forward to todays game and it's a dangerous time to be playing against Liverpool. They have been poor of late but they will be up for this and Man Utd cannot get complacent. Liverpool lads in my office think Man Utd will hammer them but I think it will be a close affair.

[jebus]

1. I agree in a sense but at the same time Benitez was provoked in to it due to the Americans public criticism, attempt at recruiting the awful Jurgen Klinsmann and also lack of support in the transfer market.

2. He did not hound out Alonso. Alonso was a pile of $hite for 2 solid seasons at which point Benitez decided it was time for a change. That change was Barry, but it fell through (lack of support in transfer market). Alonso then decided himself that he wanted to return to Spain, mainly at the behest of his wife and their newborn. He then went on to have his best season in a Liverpool shirt but still maintained his desire to leave. Benitez failed to sign Barry because of Rick Parry and the yanks, and Parry has since got the boot.

3. Robbie Keane was a huge mistake by Benitez in the first place and he did well to amend it by shipping him back from where he came. At least he had the balls to do it rather than try and save face. I saw Keane quite a few times for Liverpool and he was rubbish. Apparently he wouldn't (or couldn't) follow the instructions Benitez was giving to him which is why he kept getting taken off. He sold Keane with the promise that he could re-invest the funds but guess what? Yep, the yanks gobbled up the money.

4. He did not shell out €37m this summer. That's utter nonsense.
First off the Glenn Johnson transfer was only possible because Pompey owed Liverpool £7m from the Peter Crouch deal. He also sold Arbeloa, who Johnson was replacing, to Real for £3m and Sebastian Leto to Olympiakos for £3m. So the actual outlay for Johnson was £4m.
He sold Xabi Alonso for £30m and replaced him with Aquilani for £17m. He received the £30m up front from Real, yet the Aquilani money is spread over 5 years. So a profit of £13m there.
Bare in mind that (a) he received no budget whatsoever from the yanks this season - he had to raise all the money himself and (b) He didn't see a penny of the Robbie Keane money to re-invest as promised. He made a profit of over £10m (he sold some youngsters too) yet he was only given a miserly £2m to spend on a defensive back up (Kyrgiakos) when he wanted to sign Ryan Shawcross.

5. Ridiculous statement. Benitez had to replace an entire squad that he inherited from Houllier, and also the youth academy. He had to do this on a shoestring budget. Because he had to do it on a budget, there was no quick fix and it was a project that had to be done over time. The quality of player he could sign was dictated by his budget, thus the Pennant's, Bellamy's etc. At various times Benitez had deals agreed for Dani Alves, Simao, Nemanja Vidic and Pato but all fell through due to lack of finances. He had no choice, he could not go out and buy the quality that Chelsea and Man U could buy. He still cannot do this. I'll point out that when Dirk Kuyt was signed for £10m, he was signed with a personal loan given to the club by the then chairman David Moores. This is the sort of stuff Benitez has had to deal with.


2. If I were Alonso I'd have considered it a slap in the face when Benitez tried to hawk him around Europe so he could buy in the vastly inferior Gareth Barry. Once a player realises his manager has little or no confidence in him as a player, or doesn't see him as part of of the team's future there really is nowhere else for him to go but to leave. Considering Alonso never expressed any desire to leave before last summer I think it's safe to say he felt unwanted and so had to leave.

3. Keane might not have been THE answer to your problems, but he'd have been a better option than N'Gog or Voronin, that's for sure. Flogging him half way through a possible title winning season when things were going well for the club when you have no back up for your main striker was an idiotic move as well.

4. This has been dealt with on this page already but that's genuinely the worst counterpoint I've ever read in my life

5. He's had more than enough money at his disposal to buy in better players than he has. Also his inability to get the best out of players like Babel, Bellamy and Crouch needs to be looked at. Babel was the brightest star coming from Holland when he was bought, given his eccentric nature (if any of you are on twitter, sign up for his tweets, they're fantastic) I think he'd give you an honest answer of just how little he has progressed as a footballer under Benitez. Bellamy is a proven Premier League goalscorer and has now proven with Man City that he has what it takes to play for a top 4 side. Crouch has done it at international level and has consistently been a good Premier League player, someone Liverpool could well have done with having instead of N'Gog and Voronin for example.

[apo11o]

Looks like Rafas job is safe for the moment, beat Utd today loose to Hull or some bottom team next wk.

[reder]

Looks like Rafas job is safe for the moment, beat Utd today loose to Hull or some bottom team next wk.

I dont think his job was/is in danger. G+H wont sack him.

As for today, I said earlier in the thread that I was more worried about Lyon than United and I was right. United were nothing short of awful today, completely toothless and Liverpool with Torres, were good enough to control the game and win. I just cant comprehend how the majority of this United midfield have won the last 3 PL titles and a CL amongst other honours. They are nothing compared to the Keane, Beckham era.. Im not saying that Liverpool were any great shakes, they were workmanlike but nothing more.

The referee wasnt the best but I agree with both sendings off, both deserved to go for 2 yellows. Mascherano worked hard but he deserved the 2 yellows and Vidic had a tough game against Torres and could have no arguments with his 2nd yellow.

I think the Chelsea v United game coming up is crucial. United will probably get it together for the 2nd half of the season but if Chelsea can push on and keep winning they will pull away. Liverpool will drop points when Torres is out, we all know that. I think it would be foolish to discount Arsenal also.

The next 3 games are going to be very interesting for Liverpool. 3 wins are a must in my opinion. Rafa needs to win something this year, so he will need to field a strong side at the Emirates on Tuesday. Fulham fought back from a 2 goal deficit against Man City away to get a point, so nothing short of 100% will be needed to get 3 points at the cottage and finally, we all know that 3 points are essential against Lyon.

[Closed Account 2]

Why are Liverpool fans so obsessed with Fergie?

The media have tried taking on Fergie but failed. The guy is untouchable. His record speaks for itself and journalists now realise they are wasting their time trying to take on the king of football management. Benitez is an easy target because he's at a big club and they are struggling. Do people forget how much pressure Fergie was under when Mourinho won two PL titles in a row for Chelsea? The journalists wrote him off and ended up with egg on their faces. They are now a little reluctant to take him on.

I'm looking forward to todays game and it's a dangerous time to be playing against Liverpool. They have been poor of late but they will be up for this and Man Utd cannot get complacent. Liverpool lads in my office think Man Utd will hammer them but I think it will be a close affair.

Hiddink's twice the manager Ferguson will ever be. Won the treble in Holland with PSV (Dutch Cup, European Cup/Champions League and Dutch League) and has had a much better record at managing national teams than Ferguson.

[old git]

I dont think his job was/is in danger. G+H wont sack him.

As for today, I said earlier in the thread that I was more worried about Lyon than United and I was right. United were nothing short of awful today, completely toothless and Liverpool with Torres, were good enough to control the game and win. I just cant comprehend how the majority of this United midfield have won the last 3 PL titles and a CL amongst other honours. They are nothing compared to the Keane, Beckham era.. Im not saying that Liverpool were any great shakes, they were workmanlike but nothing more.

The referee wasnt the best but I agree with both sendings off, both deserved to go for 2 yellows. Mascherano worked hard but he deserved the 2 yellows and Vidic had a tough game against Torres and could have no arguments with his 2nd yellow.

I think the Chelsea v United game coming up is crucial. United will probably get it together for the 2nd half of the season but if Chelsea can push on and keep winning they will pull away. Liverpool will drop points when Torres is out, we all know that. I am watching Arsenal at the moment and they are 0-2 and look very good. I think it would be foolish to discount them.

The next 3 games are going to be very interesting for Liverpool. 3 wins are a must in my opinion. Rafa needs to win something this year, so he will need to field a strong side at the Emirates on Tuesday. Fulham fought back from a 2 goal deficit against Man City away to get a point, so nothing short of 100% will be needed to get 3 points at the cottage and finally, we all know that 3 points are essential against Lyon.

intresting to see what benetiz out fans thought of today :D,, on paper liverpool team today was poor enough but in fairness they deserved win they wanted it more and were the better team on the day i also think fergie sent out team looking for a draw . both teams were toothless in attack only torres took his only chance but then again thats what a great striker does utd midfield was terrible totally overrun by liverpool in 2nd half ... referee was very poor would have no arguements on both sending offs only mascheranos he was foolish sliding into tackle so late in game and carragher should have went for tackle on owen as he was last man .. but already said liverpool deserved win probaly right game against biggest rivals when all talk of crisis would agree their next 3 games just as important will they show same commitment / heart :confused: west ham have just equalised agisnt arsenal also .. personally i think chelsea are the team to catch this year

[shakermaker1982]

Hiddink's twice the manager Ferguson will ever be. Won the treble in Holland with PSV (Dutch Cup, European Cup/Champions League and Dutch League) and has had a much better record at managing national teams than Ferguson.

Fergie is the undisputed king of British managers right now and one of the greatest British managers of all time if not the greatest. Is he the best manager in the world right now? I don't know there are plenty of big name candidates but I reckon he'd be in the running.

Hiddink's a top manager but to say he is twice the manager of somebody like Fergie is a tad OTT. Fergie has only managed Scotland and that was only for a few games as an interim measure so I don't think comparing their international records is fair.

[reder]

intresting to see what benetiz out fans thought of today :D,,

As supporters of the club, they were probably happy with the win but I doubt they will change their whole opinion based on it. The last 7 games or so, gives a proper picture of where the team is. As I said above, United wont be the yardstick this season.

Finally, Andre Marriner played a big role in the game. He was very obliging towards Liverpool in all honesty. The PL is about 3 levels above his ability and Clattenburg should have refereed the game. Liverpool could comfortably have finished that game with 9 men.

[KK77]

Super day out Sunday really was. Football can break your heart at times but days like Sunday make all the trips to games like Sunderland, Chelsea etc worth it all. Haven't heard the KOP like that for a league game in god knows how long. Hopefully we can kick on now at Fulham next week.

Ngog, Ngog, Ngog, Ngog, Ngog
He tucks his c*ck into his sock
Ngog, Ngog, Ngog

[OwlsFan]

Finally, Andre Marriner played a big role in the game. He was very obliging towards Liverpool in all honesty. The PL is about 3 levels above his ability and Clattenburg should have refereed the game. Liverpool could comfortably have finished that game with 9 men.

A few bookings here or there which he didn't give had no effect on the game. The peno calls were debatable in the extreme. The Carragher incident wasn't a sending off in my view as the ball was heading away from the goal and it wasn't a clear run on the goal. Also there were only a few minutes left. I don't think the ref played a big role in the game at all. Liverpool raised their game as predicted but it just puts off the evil hour for Benitez for another month or so.

People moan about refs (especially Clattenburg) no matter who they are - it's the nature of the game.

[old git]

A few bookings here or there which he didn't give had no effect on the game. The peno calls were debatable in the extreme. The Carragher incident wasn't a sending off in my view as the ball was heading away from the goal and it wasn't a clear run on the goal. Also there were only a few minutes left. I don't think the ref played a big role in the game at all. Liverpool raised their game as predicted but it just puts off the evil hour for Benitez for another month or so.

People moan about refs (especially Clattenburg) no matter who they are - it's the nature of the game.

"if he gave these few bookings here or there which he did not give of course it may have effected game " players may have the picked up a 2nd yellow.. carragher incident could have went either way and liverpool could have been down to 1o men with a 1-0 lead and under serious pressure for more than just a few mins left only.. carragher had already commited 2 challanges from behind on rooney 1 early in game and 1 in 2nd half without so going on rules he should have already picked up 2 yellows .. lucas commited at least 6-7 fouls without a booking and yet evra gets a yellow card for torres tripping himself.. but as already said liverpool deserved their win and makes you wonder why they could not play like this for last 4 games :D will reinna now get punished for his celebrations after ngog made it 2-0 he was the first player to reach ngog and celebrated wildly in his arms in front of fans:D

[DeLorean]

Liverpool were very obviously the team with more bite on Sunday. 2-0 very fair. Thought United made a big mistake starting Berbatov. You can't afford any passengers in a game of that intensity. Anderson would have given them strength in numbers as well as more energy in midfield. I don't really think this match changes anything outside of the 3 points it was worth. I think United will struggle in these kind of fixtures in both League and Champions League. Liverpool won't be able to match that intensity (not that they were anything special) in the more run of the mill PL games. Chelsea are definitely the team with least weaknesses but United will accumulate a big points total by beating the smaller teams and winning most of their home matches, so will be there or thereabouts. The Big 4 head to heads seem to take on a very different trend each season and often don't match up to the Final placings. This season home advantage seems to be the biggest factor with United beating Arsenal at OT, Chelsea beating Liverpool at the Bridge and Liverpool beating United at Anfield.


I just cant comprehend how the majority of this United midfield have won the last 3 PL titles and a CL amongst other honours

Van der Sar
Brown
Ferdinand
Vidic
Evra
Hargreaves
Carrick
Scholes
Ronaldo
Tevez
Rooney

This is the team that started the CL Final in 2008 and is a excellent side in my opinion. There are major differences between that side and the side now. Not just personnel but players getting older also.

[apo11o]

Looks like Rafas job is safe for the moment, beat Utd today loose to Hull or some bottom team next wk.
:D Im not going to say it.:cool:

[shakermaker1982]

Deluded Liverpool fans...........please tell me you have given up hope for a League title this season?!!!

[old git]

Deluded Liverpool fans...........please tell me you have given up hope for a League title this season?!!!

demented more like after todays result :D must be so frustating 1 win in 7 games beat utd of the pitch last weekend with football and loads of passion and then a shocking performance against fulham ... i think benetiz rates the champions league more important anyway ..

[hunt4the]

demented more like after todays result :D must be so frustating 1 win in 7 games beat utd of the pitch last weekend with football and loads of passion and then a shocking performance against fulham ... i think benetiz rates the champions league more important anyway ..

cl is more important for the boys upstairs
pl is more important for the fans
rafas stuck in the middle

i sincerely hope we dont lose him to real madrid i dont think any manager out there could do a better job under the circumstances....
still theres a few cushty home games coming up sandwiched around the cl games the season is far from over yet

[reder]

cl is more important for the boys upstairs
pl is more important for the fans
rafas stuck in the middle

Both should be important to him and I assume they are. Liverpool's CL position is down to the players and management.

Was at the game yesterday, in the Fulham end where Torres scored surrounded by Fulham fans I know. It is the first time I have seen Liverpool play in months and it was all very predictable. I got a great view of the Torres goal and it was class, as he is. The Fulham fans were ****ting themselves everytime he got the ball but once he went off, they all said that Fulham would win the game and they were right. Without Torres, Liverpool's attacking treat was reduced by about 95%. Once Fulham went 2-1 up, I knew the game was over and had little confidence that Liverpool would get back into it.

I have to give credit to Voronin though. He worked his ass off yesterday and never stopped running. For all the possession, Liverpool were very predictable and everyone in the ground knew where each pass was going. The red cards will probably take some of the blame away for the result but once Fulham went 2-1 up, Liverpool were never getting back into the game even with 11.