Liverpool

[De Town]

I have to give credit to Voronin though. He worked his ass off yesterday and never stopped running.

Yeah, but sure myself or yourself could do that, but we'd still be rubbish.

[Razors left peg]

Liverpool do well against good sides because they are set up to stop teams playing. Lucas and Mascherano were excellent against United because they blocked everything from midfield. But when other teams sit back off Liverpool and the midfielders have to play a bit of football they struggle

[reder]

Liverpool do well against good sides because they are set up to stop teams playing. Lucas and Mascherano were excellent against United because they blocked everything from midfield. But when other teams sit back off Liverpool and the midfielders have to play a bit of football they struggle

I agree with that in general but the problems really started yesterday when Fulham played balls up to Zamora by-passing the midfield. He gave Carragher and the greek lad an awful time in the 2nd half. I would mind but he is sh1t as centre forwards go.

[John83]

cl is more important for the boys upstairs
pl is more important for the fans
rafas stuck in the middle
Clowns to the left of him, jokers to the right...

[KK77]

Both should be important to him and I assume they are. Liverpool's CL position is down to the players and management.

Was at the game yesterday, in the Fulham end where Torres scored surrounded by Fulham fans I know. It is the first time I have seen Liverpool play in months and it was all very predictable. I got a great view of the Torres goal and it was class, as he is. The Fulham fans were ****ting themselves everytime he got the ball but once he went off, they all said that Fulham would win the game and they were right. Without Torres, Liverpool's attacking treat was reduced by about 95%. Once Fulham went 2-1 up, I knew the game was over and had little confidence that Liverpool would get back into it.

I have to give credit to Voronin though. He worked his ass off yesterday and never stopped running. For all the possession, Liverpool were very predictable and everyone in the ground knew where each pass was going. The red cards will probably take some of the blame away for the result but once Fulham went 2-1 up, Liverpool were never getting back into the game even with 11.

Sad to read you being in the Fulham end reder. You should have been in away end with us. Wouldn't have thought i'd have seen a day when you wouldn't be. Not a good spell at all at the moment but time to stick with it and support.

[DeLorean]

It must be very frustrating to have made so much progress last season and to be in the position ye are in now. Already losing two and half times the amount of games ye did in the whole of last season, by the end of October. Benitez really is his own worst enemy at times though. Whatever about bringing off Torres, we could possibly give him the benefit of the doubt there that Torres could have done himself more damage by staying on, but taking off Benayoun (probably their most in form and creative available player) at 2-1 down really beggered belief. I thought the first sending off was pretty harsh, it was a silly lunge but harmless enough. Carragher's was more clear cut in my opinion. It would be typical Liverpool to go and beat Lyon tomorrow night but I find it hard to see them getting any more than a draw. Aquilani looked good in his little cameo against Arsenal last week but I wonder will he find the going a bit tougher when the likes of Bolton are kicking lumps out of him, time will tell I suppose.

[KK77]

It must be very frustrating to have made so much progress last season and to be in the position ye are in now. Already losing two and half times the amount of games ye did in the whole of last season, by the end of October. Benitez really is his own worst enemy at times though. Whatever about bringing off Torres, we could possibly give him the benefit of the doubt there that Torres could have done himself more damage by staying on, but taking off Benayoun (probably their most in form and creative available player) at 2-1 down really beggered belief. I thought the first sending off was pretty harsh, it was a silly lunge but harmless enough. Carragher's was more clear cut in my opinion. It would be typical Liverpool to go and beat Lyon tomorrow night but I find it hard to see them getting any more than a draw. Aquilani looked good in his little cameo against Arsenal last week but I wonder will he find the going a bit tougher when the likes of Bolton are kicking lumps out of him, time will tell I suppose.

Bar hit the post in the first half Benayoun did nothing.

Frustrating is right but times like this you must be a supporter.

[reder]

Not a good spell at all at the moment but time to stick with it and support.

Tough times alright but it makes future successes feel all the sweeter. That's the way I look at things. I think Torres should get this operation and let the lad get fit. If he doesnt, I fear that he is going to spend the season playing at 80% and missing games odd games here, there and everywhere. Personally, I cant wait for Lyon, I just want to draw a line under the Fulham game now.

[DeLorean]

Bar hit the post in the first half Benayoun did nothing.

Yeah but Torres didn't do much before he scored either, I still felt Benayoun was the most likely Liverpool player to produce something. Also it wasn't like they were bringing on somebody of note. I'm all for giving young players a chance but handing Eccleston his debut (?) in those circumstances seemed a bit drastic.

[KK77]

Yeah but Torres didn't do much before he scored either, I still felt Benayoun was the most likely Liverpool player to produce something. Also it wasn't like they were bringing on somebody of note. I'm all for giving young players a chance but handing Eccleston his debut (?) in those circumstances seemed a bit drastic.

Torres doing nothing is a slight difference in Benayoun doing nothing imo. I would have taken off Kuyt myself. In fairness anyone could have been taken off on saturday. I like Benayoun but he was no better than the rest on saturday. Eccleston was the only other attacking option we had and i suppose Rafa felt he had to change something. He went for Eccleston to try and get down the wing and get crosses in. God knows he used to get hammered when he wouldn't make subs at all or dare i say give youth a chance:D

[KK77]

Tough times alright but it makes future successes feel all the sweeter. That's the way I look at things. I think Torres should get this operation and let the lad get fit. If he doesnt, I fear that he is going to spend the season playing at 80% and missing games odd games here, there and everywhere. Personally, I cant wait for Lyon, I just want to draw a line under the Fulham game now.

Yes best if he needs an operation to get it done after tomorrow and with the international breal on the horizon he might have a chance for the City game.

[old git]

cl is more important for the boys upstairs
pl is more important for the fans
rafas stuck in the middle

i sincerely hope we dont lose him to real madrid i dont think any manager out there could do a better job under the circumstances....
still theres a few cushty home games coming up sandwiched around the cl games the season is far from over yet

cushy home games .. i like your confidence but the way liverpool are playing at the moment it is the cushy games they struggle to win .. season definatly not over for them yet but just getting harder and harder with these results

[reder]

I dont know where these cushy home games are, hunt? After Lyon its Brum at home, which falls into that category, I suppose. The next 2 home games are against Fiorentina and Arsenal and are on the 9th and 13th of December and I certainly wouldnt call them cushy. Pre-December there are away games in Hungary, Goodison and Ewood.

[Angus]

Cringeingly predictable and utter utter rubbish

Torres aside, they are a mess. Yossi can play and Aquilani can play but Steve Me is finished as is Jamie C

A confused mess - no interest in any of the traditional excuses rolled out - it is chaos

[Closed Account 2]

Tonight's performance and the result itself would normally be fine. Liverpool's downfall was letting the lead slip at Anfield. I don't think they are a bad side, but the players seem to have such brittle confidence they have very little chance of keeping a lead. Each time he takes Torres (or Gerrard when he plays) off the team's confidence seems to implode...

[reder]

Tonight's performance and the result itself would normally be fine. Liverpool's downfall was letting the lead slip at Anfield. I don't think they are a bad side, but the players seem to have such brittle confidence they have very little chance of keeping a lead. Each time he takes Torres (or Gerrard when he plays) off the team's confidence seems to implode...

Not far off the truth. Liverpool should have won the game last night but once they scored and Torres came off, it seemed inevitable that Lyon would score. I thought Lyon were dreadful overall.

Torres isnt fit and looked even more uncomfortable last night than he did on Saturday. Rafa really should let him go and have the operation. It will probably mean that he will be out for a month but I think it would be worth it in the long run.

[reder]

A confused mess - no interest in any of the traditional excuses rolled out - it is chaos

Says the West Ham fan.

[KK77]

Tonight's performance and the result itself would normally be fine. Liverpool's downfall was letting the lead slip at Anfield. I don't think they are a bad side, but the players seem to have such brittle confidence they have very little chance of keeping a lead. Each time he takes Torres (or Gerrard when he plays) off the team's confidence seems to implode...

Agree with this.

[KK77]

Not far off the truth. Liverpool should have won the game last night but once they scored and Torres came off, it seemed inevitable that Lyon would score. I thought Lyon were dreadful overall.

Torres isnt fit and looked even more uncomfortable last night than he did on Saturday. Rafa really should let him go and have the operation. It will probably mean that he will be out for a month but I think it would be worth it in the long run.

Again agree with this. Torres didn't come out for the warm down afterwards. Don't know if that means anything. Am sure we will hear in the coming days.

[RonnieB]

Watching Torres's movement last night you could see he was far from his usual self. For Liverpools sake I hope he and Gerrard are fit again soon.

[papa-j]

Cringeingly predictable and utter utter rubbish

Torres aside, they are a mess. Yossi can play and Aquilani can play but Steve Me is finished as is Jamie C

A confused mess - no interest in any of the traditional excuses rolled out - it is chaos

above you mention Gerard who didn't play last night and state he is finished?
You mention Aquilani who didn't play last night or in fact this season and has 15mins in total under his belt as a Liverpool player and state he can play?

Your argument is a confused mess:eek:

[DeLorean]

I was kind of surprised with Lyons tactics. I know they only needed a draw but it was a very dangerous game they were playing. With the team Liverpool had out they were very much there for the taking if they had played their normal game. Having said that I thought they were reasonably comfortable, although Lucas and Voronin did have really good chances. I thought Liverpool, for the most part, were very predictable and laboured. They were so slow moving that at times it was hard to believe it was a match they really needed to win. Having said that it's obviously a very difficult place to go and it's not easy break down a good side with at least ten men behind the ball. Some goal by Babel in fairness, should really have been enough. Realistically Lyon have to win in Florence for Liverpool to have any chance, stranger things have happened.

[Angus]

above you mention Gerard who didn't play last night and state he is finished?
You mention Aquilani who didn't play last night or in fact this season and has 15mins in total under his belt as a Liverpool player and state he can play?

Your argument is a confused mess:eek:

Well, looking at Aquilani from the Italian league from last year and a couple of other vignettes, he looks like a player. Clearly don't know about how he will do for Liverpool - but he looks a player

On Gerrard, at his age, and given his athleticism, his recurring injuries are now going to start to take a serious toll on the longevity of his career. Put it this way - if he played for Wenger, he would have been shipped out a couple of years ago.

[Angus]

Says the West Ham fan.

Does this preclude my ability to comment on Liverpool ? West Ham are the epitome of a mess - a good manager but devoid of coherent strategy.

But the media don't fawn over WH, RTE don't spend hours and hours on WH, no WH player tips up in the media saying they want Prem an WC medals, WH ambition is to not get relegated, LFC's goal is to win loads of stuff.

And it is in that context that LFC are a mess

[old git]

I was kind of surprised with Lyons tactics. I know they only needed a draw but it was a very dangerous game they were playing. With the team Liverpool had out they were very much there for the taking if they had played their normal game. Having said that I thought they were reasonably comfortable, although Lucas and Voronin did have really good chances. I thought Liverpool, for the most part, were very predictable and laboured. They were so slow moving that at times it was hard to believe it was a match they really needed to win. Having said that it's obviously a very difficult place to go and it's not easy break down a good side with at least ten men behind the ball. Some goal by Babel in fairness, should really have been enough. Realistically Lyon have to win in Florence for Liverpool to have any chance, stranger things have happened.

agree with you on lyon tactics very surprised .. but maybe they also not a great team .. i thought liverpool controlled game after about 20 mins and should have been at least 3-0 up before babel scored .. lyon had 2 chances on liverpool mistakes and scored one of them on last nights performance cannot see lyon winning in florence :ball:

[volley]

On Gerrard, at his age, and given his athleticism, his recurring injuries are now going to start to take a serious toll on the longevity of his career. Put it this way - if he played for Wenger, he would have been shipped out a couple of years ago.

Ridiculous. RIDICULOUS. I can't predict how injuries might affect Stevie's future, but what you are saying about Wenger is the stupidest thing I have heard all week. Check SG's personal statistics for the last 2 years then come back to me. Oh and by the way what has Wenger's policy won him since 2005 FA Cup?????

[Norm]

The current LFC squad has been found out. It seems to become more blatently obvious with every match they play how unbalanced & weak they actually are.
Whoever will eventually replace Rafa will have one hell of a job on his hands.
LFC are on the brink of losing more then just a place in the last 16 of the Champions League.

[old git]

Ridiculous. RIDICULOUS. I can't predict how injuries might affect Stevie's future, but what you are saying about Wenger is the stupidest thing I have heard all week. Check SG's personal statistics for the last 2 years then come back to me. Oh and by the way what has Wenger's policy won him since 2005 FA Cup?????

people in glasshouses ... what has benitez policy won since 2005..:D:D

[KK77]

people in glasshouses ... what has benitez policy won since 2005..:D:D

Being honest what he's saying is Wenger has won nothing since 2005 and gets no real criticism for it. Nothing at all to do with glass houses.

[DeLorean]

Benitez is still getting plenty of support from the fans anyway, going by Sky Sports News last night. They are a loyal bunch, I'll give them that. Not so much the Liverpool fans I know in 'real life' though, they're sick to death of him.

[KK77]

Torres isnt fit and looked even more uncomfortable last night than he did on Saturday. Rafa really should let him go and have the operation. It will probably mean that he will be out for a month but I think it would be worth it in the long run.

Went to Valencia yesterday for a second opinion on his groin.

[old git]

Being honest what he's saying is Wenger has won nothing since 2005 and gets no real criticism for it. Nothing at all to do with glass houses.

probally due to liverpool tradition and history and current so called bad spell at the moment .. don't worry when arsenal hit a so called bad pitch media wont be shy in giving wenger plenty of criticism :ball:

[KK77]

probally due to liverpool tradition and history and current so called bad spell at the moment .. don't worry when arsenal hit a so called bad pitch media wont be shy in giving wenger plenty of criticism :ball:

Your more than likely right there. Off topic but they are going along nicely now. (Arsenal not Liverpool):D:D

[reder]

Benitez is still getting plenty of support from the fans anyway, going by Sky Sports News last night. They are a loyal bunch, I'll give them that. Not so much the Liverpool fans I know in 'real life' though, they're sick to death of him.

He certainly wasnt on the tube after the Fulham game last week. Some very harsh stuff was said about him and most of the players.

As for Arsenal, they are playing very well at the moment and look in good shape on. With their stadium up and running, things are looking good for the future of the club. I still think they are one top class defensive player short.

[DeLorean]

He certainly wasnt on the tube after the Fulham game last week. Some very harsh stuff was said about him and most of the players

Oh right, fair enough. Suppose that would be a lot of the die hards too so maybe he's not as well supported as Sky Sports News portrayed.


As for Arsenal, they are playing very well at the moment and look in good shape on. With their stadium up and running, things are looking good for the future of the club. I still think they are one top class defensive player short.

It's hard to know with Arsenal. We've seen them play well at this time of the year before but fall drastically short when it counts. I do think they're in better shape than they were though, Vermaelen looks a fine player and a big improvement on Toure I think. Arshavin and Rosicky give them far more strength and ability to cope with injuries now too.

[KK77]

[QUOTE=DeLorean;1266248]Oh right, fair enough. Suppose that would be a lot of the die hards too so maybe he's not as well supported as Sky Sports News portrayed.


I'd imagine Sky Sports had what 4/5 or 6 at most interviewed so hardly a reflection. I'd also imagine Reder heard no more than say the same or 10 at most. Hardly a majority Rafa out brigade. I was at the game myself and heard two having a go (just what i heard could have been more) as well but also heard a lot behind the manager. Happens at all clubs some in favour some against.

I question things he does as much as the next supporter but as long as he's manager of the football club he will have my support. People can take the p*ss and say it's blind faith all they like i honestly just call it support.

[papa-j]

The current LFC squad has been found out. It seems to become more blatently obvious with every match they play how unbalanced & weak they actually are.
Whoever will eventually replace Rafa will have one hell of a job on his hands.
LFC are on the brink of losing more then just a place in the last 16 of the Champions League.

I agree to an extent here about being found out but disagree with your point on the squad quality and rebuilding in future. I believe that this team has been punching above their weight season after season and that can only last so long before it levels off. You cant keep pulling off"miracle results" season after season.

Alonso was crucial to how the team played and I firmly believe that Rafa intends changing the system with Johnson and Aqualani. This has not been possible yet but I'll judge him and the team at the end of the season. They have enough credit in the bank to deserve that much. I also believe that the club will be sold by start of next season and really look forward to Rafa with a bulging transfer kitty and shopping exclusively off the top shelf.

[KK77]

[QUOTE=papa-j;1266261]I agree to an extent here about being found out but disagree with your point on the squad quality and rebuilding in future. I believe that this team has been punching above their weight season after season and that can only last so long before it levels off. You cant keep pulling off"miracle results" season after season.

Very fair points.

[DeLorean]

I'd imagine Sky Sports had what 4/5 or 6 at most interviewed so hardly a reflection

Very true, it was more the theme of the report seemed to indicate that he had the backing of the majority of the fans. They also interviewed Aldridge and McAteer who were supportive of him, in stark contrast to Whelan.

[KK77]

Very true, it was more the theme of the report seemed to indicate that he had the backing of the majority of the fans. They also interviewed Aldridge and McAteer who were supportive of him, in stark contrast to Whelan.

Whelan jays*s yeah really sticking the boot in this week and getting great coverage as well. Entitled to his opinion no issues with that though a little personal from him imo. We are down at the moment and the last thing we need is ex-players sticking the boot in with criticism that's not constructive. Maybe he's spending too much time with Dunphy!!!!!!!!

[DeLorean]

Maybe he's spending too much time with Dunphy!!!!!!!!

Well lets put it this way, if he was working for Sky Sports I don't think he'd be a vocal about his frustrations. That's not to say he's wrong or right in what he's saying.

[reder]

Well lets put it this way, if he was working for Sky Sports I don't think he'd be a vocal about his frustrations. That's not to say he's wrong or right in what he's saying.
Whelan was completely OTT. It had nothing to do with RTE or Sky Sports. Souey has openly said that Rafa has developed a poor squad during his tenure on Sky Sports on a few occassions. Whelan just lost the plot last week. I always think that he is bitter towards the club and the game for the following reasons:

- Whilst at Liverpool, he was never really considered a hero/legend by the kop.

- the average PL player earns more in one year than he did in his whole career.

I have no problem with anyone, ex-players included, coming out and giving Rafa a good bashing once it is factual. He definitely deserves some of the criticism aimed towards him, no one can deny that. There is nothing wrong with questioning Rafa and people often seem to confuse that with not supporting the team and club. I know match-going reds who are massively against Rafa and have wanted him out since last season but they still go to games and get behind the team 100%.

As always Thommo has given the most balanced reaction to the current situation. I watched him with interest on Soccer Saturday 2 weeks ago and whilst he stood up for the club to an extent, he certainly didnt hold back in saying that the manager and players were not doing their bit.

[DeLorean]

Whelan was completely OTT. It had nothing to do with RTE or Sky Sports

Yeah thinking about it you're probably right. Shur Dunphy, Bill & co weren't even there when he had his original outburst after the Fulham match.

[old git]

I agree to an extent here about being found out but disagree with your point on the squad quality and rebuilding in future. I believe that this team has been punching above their weight season after season and that can only last so long before it levels off. You cant keep pulling off"miracle results" season after season.

Alonso was crucial to how the team played and I firmly believe that Rafa intends changing the system with Johnson and Aqualani. This has not been possible yet but I'll judge him and the team at the end of the season. They have enough credit in the bank to deserve that much. I also believe that the club will be sold by start of next season and really look forward to Rafa with a bulging transfer kitty and shopping exclusively off the top shelf.

think your post really sums up liverpool for the last couple of years
when you admit a magnificent / proud club like liverpool have been " punching above their weight season after season " especially in a poor preimer league with 3-4 teams only having a chance to win title :ball: would be intrested what results you class as "miracle results " season after season ???

[reder]

By all accounts, Torres has been told that he needs to rest for 3 weeks to recover from this injury. Rafa should just leave him be now.

[papa-j]

think your post really sums up liverpool for the last couple of years
when you admit a magnificent / proud club like liverpool have been " punching above their weight season after season " especially in a poor preimer league with 3-4 teams only having a chance to win title :ball: would be intrested what results you class as "miracle results " season after season ???

Yes Liverpool have a magnificent history but have been far from magnificent for the past 20 years. There have been a few glory days to keep us supporters faithful but the lack of consistancy is heartbreaking.The whole downturn has coincided with David Moores reign as Chairman and his legacy is the mess we are in now in due to his sale to the americans for a few million more than DIC were offering. Add to this the explosion of football revenues and Liverpools failure to capitalise on the global brand until recently along with billionaire owners buying clubs,the miracle is that we are(were) competing with Man u and Chelsea for the past 4-5 years.

Finishing 2nd last year, winning champions league + another final are examples of punching above our weight. Sunderland and Spurs are investing more money in there squads than Liverpool, they also have larger wage bills. The facts are that Benetiz has had less than 20 million net spend each year to invest in the squad and this year the lack of investment has caught up,we have leveled off. We have a very poor squad depth in terms of quality, money buys quality and we dont have any:(

[gaiscíoch]

The per season column gives an average of the money spend in each season in the corresponding period season 04/05 to date





# Net Spend 04 - 09 Purchased Sold Nett Per Season



1 Manchester City £292,750,000 £71,900,000 £220,850,000 £36,808,333

2 Chelsea £267,950,000 £123,300,000 £144,650,000 £24,108,333

3 Liverpool £247,730,000 £134,080,000 £113,650,000 £18,941,667

4 Tottenham £262,000,000 £163,550,000 £98,450,000 £16,408,333

5 Aston Villa £130,200,000 £37,255,000 £92,945,000 £15,490,833

6 Sunderland £154,080,000 £67,900,000 £86,180,000 £14,363,333

9 Stoke City £39,100,000 £10,095,000 £29,005,000 £4,834,167

7 Manchester United £188,650,000 £161,050,000 £27,600,000 £4,600,000

8 Everton £102,100,500 £78,200,000 £23,900,500 £3,983,417

18 West Ham £94,145,000 £71,325,000 £22,820,000 £3,803,333

15 Hull £22,415,000 £2,975,000 £19,440,000 £3,240,000

10 Fulham £59,925,000 £40,725,000 £19,200,000 £3,200,000

12 Birmingham City £60,800,000 £41,825,000 £18,975,000 £3,162,500

11 Bolton £42,400,000 £26,300,000 £16,100,000 £2,683,333

13 Wolves £22,075,000 £15,575,000 £6,500,000 £1,083,333

14 Burnley £10,505,000 £8,625,000 £1,880,000 £313,333

15 Blackburn Rovers £49,052,000 £57,290,000 -£8,238,000 -£1,373,000

16 Wigan £57,850,000 £66,250,000 -£8,400,000 -£1,400,000

17 Portsmouth £92,200,000 £107,240,000 -£15,040,000-£2,506,667

18 Arsenal £112,050,000 £138,320,000 -£26,270,000 -£4,378,333




Newcastle £120,750,000 £106,400,000 £14,350,000 £2,391,667

Middlesbrough £62,200,000 £54,500,000 £7,700,000 £1,283,333

[Angus]

Ridiculous. RIDICULOUS. I can't predict how injuries might affect Stevie's future, but what you are saying about Wenger is the stupidest thing I have heard all week. Check SG's personal statistics for the last 2 years then come back to me. Oh and by the way what has Wenger's policy won him since 2005 FA Cup?????

I may have said it badly - the way gerrard plays is very athletic and his physical condition is very important to his effectiveness.

A player like him is going to take more stress and strain and repetitive injuries than some others. Benitez already tried to sell gerrard to chelsea and all I ma saying is that we are now beyond gerrard's peak, in my view

Clearly, I could be wrong - but I don't think he has the longevity of, say, giggs, because they play the game differently

[John83]

Clearly, I could be wrong - but I don't think he has the longevity of, say, giggs, because they play the game differently
It depends. Giggs has slowed a lot, but compensated. Gerrard may be able to do the same, or not. Either way, he's not about to go from a key player for Liverpool to a liability overnight. Well, not without an impressive injury.

[reder]

A welcome gimme tonight for Liverpool. Thankfully Birmingham couldnt score in a brothel at the moment so an easy 3 points is on the cards.