Kevin Doyle

[pete]

in my book its a condascending/patronising - as close to racist as you like.


Reading boss Steve Coppell has revealed that a touch of the hard stuff appears to work wonders for his scouting methods. Speaking about a trip to Ireland to take a look at club hot shot Kevin Doyle over the summer, the former Crystal Palace boss explained his perspective on the new signing was slightly affected by a traditional pre-game trip to the pub. "I can't really remember what it was that I particularly liked about him," said Coppell. "I had five pints of Guinness in the afternoon and it was all a bit blurred!"

:rolleyes:

[Fergie's Son]

read coppells comments
read atkinsons comments to the irish manager who sold him mcgrath

in my book its a condascending/patronising - as close to racist as you like.

I have read Coppell's comments and is says more about Coppell than anything else. A huge percentage of all forms of business is done over a drink. Not sure what you do for a living but in my industry drinking plays a significant role in client/business development and deal consumation. I am very confident it is true in most other businesses as well.

As for Atkinson, well that transfer is more than 20 years ago yet you want to hold it up as the paragon of the current game? Give me a break.

[Qwerty]

The 21M price on Hargreaves is Bayern's valuation to the great dismay of Fergie. Chelski paid 17M for Duff. Robbie Keane has had big sums paid for him. Kennedy was the most expensive teenager in British history at one point and so was Robbie keane. As for the 5M price for Doyle, please remember this is Villa you're talking about...

As a rule richer clubs are forced to play more money than smaller clubs for the players of equal talent.

Carrick's transfer fee I'm sure puzzled everyone but Fergie was desperate to get players last summer.

[Metrostars]

This talk of low transfer fees of Irish players due to racism is nonsense. Players who come from the Eircom League or any other "smaller" league are seen as being unproven because they have not played regulary at a higher standard of football.

What about the transfers of Duff(£17m, £5m), Carr(£2m), Finnan(€4.9m), Andy Reid(£3m), Carsley(£1.9m), Dunne(£3m), S Reid(£1.85m), Kilbane(£1m, £2.5, £1m, £2m), Kennedy(£2.3m, £1.75m, £1, £3m) and of course Robbie Keane (£6m, £13m, £12m, £7m)

[youngirish]

What about the transfers of Duff(£17m, £5m), Carr(£2m), Finnan(€4.9m), Andy Reid(£3m), Carsley(£1.9m), Dunne(£3m), S Reid(£1.85m), Kilbane(£1m, £2.5, £1m, £2m), Kennedy(£2.3m, £1.75m, £1, £3m) and of course Robbie Keane (£6m, £13m, £12m, £7m)
Not sure what you're on about here for full internationals the vast majority of these transfer fees are ridiculously low. How many England (even peripheral) players go for less than 5 million? None. Jermaine Jenas who is a poorer player by any standards than the vast majority of those listed above cost nearly 9 million ffs. During the summer Jermaine Pennant was 2 millions pounds more expensive than Duff????????? He is f**king terrible.

Are all English Internationals better players than Irish internationals? Not a hope. Some of their peripheral players in particular are pure sh*te.

I'm not on a poor Ireland buzz anyway Fergie's son. I agree with the logic of your first point. I don't think Irish players are horrendously underpriced compared to other nationalities. I just know English players are ridiculously overpriced. Most Premiership managers would agree with me btw and have stated as such numerous times so it's not rascist.

[gustavo]

Not sure what you're on about here for full internationals the vast majority of these transfer fees are ridiculously low. How many England (even peripheral) players go for less than 5 million? None. Jermaine Jenas who is a poorer player by any standards than the vast majority of those listed above cost nearly 9 million ffs. During the summer Jermaine Pennant was 2 millions pounds more expensive than Duff????????? He is f**king terrible.


.

Chelsea wanted to sell , Birmingham didnt.

[wws]

6 figures for Irish players from the EL is now the norm
as I stated here yesterday

[geysir]

For a young first team player of a similar stature to Jim Beglin (£50,000 '81) and Tony Cousins (£70,000 '90), shouldn't the norm be greater than €500,000 these days?

[wws]

yeah 6 figures

ya can put a 5 on the top if ya like,,,,

[Irish_Praha]

I agree that certain players are over-hyped and over-priced just because they are English, but I'd mostly agree with Fergie's Son's points.

The other point that EL players are seen as unproven by bigger English clubs might be hard to swallow for some EL fans, when said player has European experience and underage international caps. I wouldn't call that racisim I'd just call it ignorance. Naturally enough the English underage scene is followed more closely in England than the Irish underage scene and the increased hype associated with this coverage has a knock-on effect of increasing a player's value compared to an underage player for another country (not just Ireland). The fact that EL teams involvement in European games is limited to the qualification rounds is also a factor because your average English football fan or so-called pundit/expert/scout is only interested in the business end of European competitions. Trying to negotiate at least 500,000 for a player on these grounds is not so easy. Just because the Irish media and many punters are in love with English football doesn't mean that English media and puters give a flying f*ck about the domestic football scene in Ireland (or any other small league). The best EL teams can do is negotiate hard on the contract clauses i.e.
Pay us 100,000 if he scores more than X goals in a season
If he get's an international cap pay us another 100,000.
If you get promoted in a season where he plays more than 20 games pay us another 100,000.
If you sell him we get 10 to 15 % of the selling fee.
And so on...

That way both sides are on a winner.

Until EL teams start reaching the knock-out stages of Europe and/or another 5 Doyle-type success stories emerge it will be very difficult to see them breaking the 1 million euro barrier. Of course another possibility is if an EL team manages to hang onto a player until he becomes a regular starter for the Irish international team but that'S also very unlikely at the moment.

[eirebhoy]

With regards prices for EL players, it's the same in the SPL. Rangers got a 30 goal a season striker for £300k from Kilmarnock. They've also put in a bid of £150k for Falkirk's best player, Alan Gow. Hibs are the only team that seem to be making sure they're getting decent prices but that's because they're now in a good financial state.

[pete]

I think its the way english clubs look at the LOI is actions that bordering on racist.

[wws]

right I'm referring to specific remarks by English managers.
Its an attitude - its quite prevalent in the English game - and its the attitude that underlines valuations of million pound players at 70,000 euro just because they're paddys, micks, murphys etc etc.

Any Irish person here saying "that's what they're worth/ they're unproven in England" is an Uncle Tom. Thats the way I feel on this matter. The Uncle Toms can take it or leave it.

[Ceirtlis]

I dont think that English clubs are racist, they just geniunely think that the eircom league is the same standard as the conference and much of it is based on the fact that half the teams in the eircom prem are part-time with the rest gone full time just recently, just like the conference division in England. If Eircom League clubs think that offers are derisory they should just not accept them its as simple as that. As with the offer for Doyle the important thing to note here is that the offer was turned down so Reading obviously rate have a higher price on him. The figures for Ashley Young etc are pie in the sky they have not been offered and are just to scare away potential buyers.

[Metrostars]

right I'm referring to specific remarks by English managers.
Its an attitude - its quite prevalent in the English game - and its the attitude that underlines valuations of million pound players at 70,000 euro just because they're paddys, micks, murphys etc etc.

Any Irish person here saying "that's what they're worth/ they're unproven in England" is an Uncle Tom. Thats the way I feel on this matter. The Uncle Toms can take it or leave it.

Thats just stupid. If you're buying a car that you know can get for 20,000 euros why would you offer to pay 100,000 euros for it? It's the same with players. Why would a team pay a million pounds for a player they know they can get for 70,000? They are a business not a charity.

Until the selling EL clubs say, "no, Kevin Doyle is worth 1 million and we wont take any less", then this sort of thing will keep going on. And that has nothing to do with racism. It's just business.

[cavan_fan]

Its an attitude - its quite prevalent in the English game - and its the attitude that underlines valuations of million pound players at 70,000 euro just because they're paddys, micks, murphys etc etc.


A player is worth what someone is willing to pay. No-one was willing to pay a million for Doyle, so I don't see how he was a million pound player. This has nothing to do with Reading and everything to do with Cork. Given they knew they were going to have to sell Doyle why didnt they put a bit of effort into 'selling' him to other clubs for e.g. 500,000. There must be 200 clubs in Europe who could pay that fee.

My view on this is Reading come across as a shrewd club who bought a player at a bargain rate, and then developed him. Cork come across as a club who have no knowledge or interest in the value of their prime assets.

[wws]

A player is worth what someone is willing to pay. No-one was willing to pay a million for Doyle, so I don't see how he was a million pound player. This has nothing to do with Reading and everything to do with Cork. Given they knew they were going to have to sell Doyle why didnt they put a bit of effort into 'selling' him to other clubs for e.g. 500,000. There must be 200 clubs in Europe who could pay that fee.

My view on this is Reading come across as a shrewd club who bought a player at a bargain rate, and then developed him. Cork come across as a club who have no knowledge or interest in the value of their prime assets.




theres a whole history of how he came to have that clause inserted in his contract

i cant be arsed goin on about it but will you can the "developed him" cráp
he scored a few tap ins and pennos against players you've seen on telly, he's no better now than he was 18 months ago

[cavan_fan]

i cant be arsed goin on about it but will you can the "developed him" cráp
he scored a few tap ins and pennos against players you've seen on telly, he's no better now than he was 18 months ago

No he's scored against some of the world's best defenders and is one of the top 3 scorers in arguably the best league in the world. Now you may argue that any top eL striker would do that with no development but I'd be surprised.

[wws]

you know in many ways
me and you are very different people.....

[Fergie's Son]

right I'm referring to specific remarks by English managers.
Its an attitude - its quite prevalent in the English game - and its the attitude that underlines valuations of million pound players at 70,000 euro just because they're paddys, micks, murphys etc etc.

Any Irish person here saying "that's what they're worth/ they're unproven in England" is an Uncle Tom. Thats the way I feel on this matter. The Uncle Toms can take it or leave it.

If you are not prepared to be rational and debate rationally then you have no place on a discussion board.

Calling someone an "Uncle Tom" because they dare introduce logic and reason into a discussion is intellectually and morally untenable.

You are an unpleasant poster.

[wws]

If you are not prepared to be rational and debate rationally then you have no place on a discussion board.

Calling someone an "Uncle Tom" because they dare introduce logic and reason into a discussion is intellectually and morally untenable.

You are an unpleasant poster.


cheers your a barrel of laughs yourself

[pete]

I'll let ye on on a little known secret. CCFC inserted the clause in his contract as means of attracting interest from foreign clubs. At that stage we also got a 10% sell on clause which if Reading had accepted the bid from Aston Villa would have meant an addition 750-800k to Cork City. basically we accepted a low initial payment in exchange for sell on clause as we knew he'd be a star.

:cool:

[cavan_fan]

I'll let ye on on a little known secret. CCFC inserted the clause in his contract as means of attracting interest from foreign clubs. At that stage we also got a 10% sell on clause which if Reading had accepted the bid from Aston Villa would have meant an addition 750-800k to Cork City. basically we accepted a low initial payment in exchange for sell on clause as we knew he'd be a star.

:cool:

Which seems a good idea, except I was under the impression that the contract didnt require a sell on clause in any sale, which makes it a bit of a risk, or was that not the situation.

[shakermaker1982]

5 million for Doyle? If they double that figure then Reading might start thinking about it.......I hope he stays at Reading for a good while yet, he's happy there and it looks a fantastic set up. Villa have the opinion of themselves that they are a top 4 Prem club and would demand an intstant return from the lad.

[The Legend]

Villa are a garbage club, if/when he moves it should only to be a starter at club that plays Champions League football or if Reading get relegated.

[Fergie's Son]

cheers your a barrel of laughs yourself

At least I attempt to apply logic to a situation rather than an emotive response.

[Wolfie]

5 million for Doyle? If they double that figure then Reading might start thinking about it.......I hope he stays at Reading for a good while yet, he's happy there and it looks a fantastic set up. Villa have the opinion of themselves that they are a top 4 Prem club and would demand an intstant return from the lad.

Doyle should stay put for the moment. If it aint broke, don't fix it.

[kingdom hoop]

the criteria for value should not be whether a player is a full international, but rather the form they are in. obviously this is why doyle is highly valued at the moment. just because a player has earned caps for his country does not mean his value should shoot up, though it invariably will. the transfers of irish players have usually occured when they have gone through patchy club form with the result that their value has not been upheld just because they have represented us.


[QUOTE=youngirish;602361]Not sure what you're on about here for full internationals the vast majority of these transfer fees are ridiculously low. How many England (even peripheral) players go for less than 5 million? None. Jermaine Jenas who is a poorer player by any standards than the vast majority of those listed above cost nearly 9 million ffs. During the summer Jermaine Pennant was 2 millions pounds more expensive than Duff????????? He is f**king terrible.

Are all English Internationals better players than Irish internationals? Not a hope. Some of their peripheral players in particular are pure sh*te.QUOTE]

Blind nationalism. it is much easier to be a regular irish international (kilbane didnt miss a game for three years or something!) jenas would be a dead cert in our midfield, i cant believe you could suggest otherwise. a good taker of chances with abundant energy and a decent passer and his age justify a hefty price

of course some players will slip through to become 'internationals', steve guppy, michael gray, gavin mccann have engalnd caps, while of course we have micky evans, paul butler..but the comparison between such players shows the difference in standards.

on the mediocre scale of things england internationals that would be in and around the ireland team who, like irish players are transferred between average clubs, are not ridiculously priced for the most part. danny murphy £2m twice, luke young £4m, darius vassell £2m, trevor sinclair £2.5m, in other words comparable to similar calibre irish players. the only irish player who has gone to a top club recently is duff, who like carrick,hargreaves,SWP was outrageously priced. reading could probably extract £15m from utd if they wanted doyle, but thats not the case atm

i dont see the racism, if anything there may be an element of leaguism but doyle is convincing the perpetrators of such, debatable, crimes that they may need to re-evaluate their outlook.

[Docboy]

In the short term I can see how the Eircom League feels they are being taken for a ride. However, if a couple more of these players make that sort of breakthrough then I reckon it wouldn't be too long before the prices start to rise to the £1-£2m mark, similar to what has happened in the Norwegian league over the last decade or more. And that money reinvested into the league could only be a good thing longterm.

Perhaps Long may yet make it, took his goal brilliantly the other night.

[JC_GUFC]

Doesn't this sort of sh*t bother people? It's not me being anti-English, the simple fact is if Doyle was born in Walthamstow instead of Wexford then there wouldn't be a serious bid of less than 15 mill for him for the same run of form that he's had at 23. Ridiculous.

The fact is that when a majority of Irish people slate our own league this is what happens. Was Doyle only worth £70,000 when at Cork? Of course not but English clubs regard the eircom League as part-time non-league football and why should they think any different when more people in Ireland are interested in supporting Man United and Celtic than local football?

Since Doyle has signed there seems to have been a stream of players flowing to the UK, some very average ones are joining and getting straight into SPL teams. SPL clubs have copped on to the fact that there are bargains to be had here so hopefully this can change and the value of Irish players will go up.

[wws]

The fact is that when a majority of Irish people slate our own league this is what happens. Was Doyle only worth £70,000 when at Cork? Of course not but English clubs regard the eircom League as part-time non-league football and why should they think any different when more people in Ireland are interested in supporting Man United and Celtic than local football?

Since Doyle has signed there seems to have been a stream of players flowing to the UK, some very average ones are joining and getting straight into SPL teams. SPL clubs have copped on to the fact that there are bargains to be had here so hopefully this can change and the value of Irish players will go up.

pretty much what I've said over 40 illogical postings.

[charliesboots]

I can't believe that nobody has mentioned how Irish schoolboy football is raped by English clubs every year.

93%* of Irish players who sign for English clubs at 16 or 17 don't make the grade and return home. The English clubs just take everybody with an iota of talent because they're scared sh1tless of missing "the next Roy Keane"

It makes me sick that these kids are told that the world is their oyster at 16 by clubs who know that within 3 years 9 out of 10 of them will be on the boat home.

In a huge amount of cases it's the fact that they are away from home that hinders their progress. The two best Irish players of all time, Keane and McGrath, both played Senior football here first, that's no coincidence. Doyle is showing that now.

Tell me any other nationality that this happens to with English clubs. It's disgusting.

*stats are from about 5 years ago when Eoin Hand took up his job in the FAI overlooking Irish players in England and facilitating them when they inevitable return.

[passinginterest]

Much as it'd be nice to see it's hard to see transfer fees of over a million for Eircom League players. Taking into account the fact that many of them are on contracts of only two years and wages are small and always will be small compared to English league. Transfer fees get inflated due to players being on long term, fairly big money contracts. Doyle has just signed a new 4year contract at Reading with a big wage increase, this is what pushes his value from 5million to 8million. The Eircom League dosen't generate the revenue to sustain big wages and contracts. Personally I'd say half a million to 750000 is about the highest fee any Irish team will get for their best players, and money like that would make good economic sense for the league.

[cavan_fan]

I can't believe that nobody has mentioned how Irish schoolboy football is raped by English clubs every year.

93%* of Irish players who sign for English clubs at 16 or 17 don't make the grade and return home. The English clubs just take everybody with an iota of talent because they're scared sh1tless of missing "the next Roy Keane"


Is this not the same for English players at English clubs, I'm not sure Irish schoolboys are much less likely to make it than English schoolboys. Do agree though that we should look to keep these players in the League until 20. This is a slight problem for us but a much bigger one for countries like the Ivory Coast.

[charliesboots]

This is a slight problem for us

No it's not, its one of the principal reasons our league is not developing as it should be.

How can it develop when the vast majority of our best young players are not available to our clubs. By the time they return home at 18/19 most are disillusioned by football and the broken dream it has become due to the lies and false promises made to them by English clubs.

[pete]

It makes me sick that these kids are told that the world is their oyster at 16 by clubs who know that within 3 years 9 out of 10 of them will be on the boat home.

When they come home then at 19 they have poor english education so can't get a decent job. At least if they stayed home they'd have got their Leaving Cert so could go into 3rd level education...

[Irish_Praha]

When they come home then at 19 they have poor english education so can't get a decent job. At least if they stayed home they'd have got their Leaving Cert so could go into 3rd level education...

--:D--

[galwayhoop]

the reason players go to UK clubs for low prices is not racism.

the defination of somethings (someones) value is the amount that a willing purchaser is willing to pay to a willing seller.

our league, rightly or wrongly (the latter IMO), is viewed - or at least has been viewed up untill now - as on a par with english league one or below. therefore clubs are only willing to pay fees of about £100k for players. look at the transfer fees that premiership clubs pay to lge1, 2 or conference clubs and it is not a million miles away from what they pay for eL players. i know that there will be some exceptions but most are about the £100k mark.

IMO the standard of the eL is higher than the english lge 1 from a football perspective but we are (unfortunately) on a similar footing when you look at facilities, wages, length of contracts ... etc.

when a player is signed on a weak contract - ie low wages for a relatively short period - it is obviously going to be easier to sign him for a cheaper than market value fee than if he is secured on a longer term high paying contract.

in fact you even see english teams selling their own players for reduced fees when they are in the last year of their contract if they think the player will not re-sign as they risk him going for free later on. most players in the eL are signed on 1-2 year contracts and there is not a strong transfer market between eL clubs so it is unreasonable to expect foreign clubs to pay vastly greater sums than that paid by the eL clubs themselves, from a business perspective why would they - they will obviously think (and rightly so in most cases) that the player would like to come, the club could do with the money and there is no-one bidding a greater sum of money than me.

it is akin to going to an auction for a house and you are the only bidder, the guide price may be €1 million, you have much more than €1 million but you are the only person in the hall apart from the seller and the auctioneer. you happen to know that the seller is not very well off and needs to sell the house so you just bid €100,000 - and you probably get it.

as a patriotic irish man i believe the above is a reasonable arguement and doesn't make me an uncle tom!

[eirebhoy]

I mentioned this in the Byrne thread but if he goes on to score 20 goals next season then EL clubs can demand a lot more for their players. Put it this way, if Leroy Lita is worth £1m after 24 goals in league 1 then an Irish player of a similar age would be worth the same with a similar goalscoring rate. It all depends on Byrne succeeding though. Byrne is almost 29 though so I think €300k would be a fantastic fee for him atm.

[NeilMcD]

I think system that facilitated players staying in Ireland until they were 21 would be great. I think then if they had the talent and foreign clubs were prepared to pay the money they good go and at least they would have a Leaving Cert behind them and experience of playing for successful clubs who are playing in Europe season after seaon. They would also be more mature when they go abroad. I think if a system like this could be developed it woudl be good for all concerned.

[cavan_fan]

I think system that facilitated players staying in Ireland until they were 21 would be great. I think then if they had the talent and foreign clubs were prepared to pay the money they good go and at least they would have a Leaving Cert behind them and experience of playing for successful clubs who are playing in Europe season after seaon. They would also be more mature when they go abroad. I think if a system like this could be developed it woudl be good for all concerned.

One option for this is is for eL clubs to have feeder deals with English/Scottish/Other?? sides. The main reason as stated before that English clubs hoover up young Irish players is that they (like everyone else) have no idea who the succesful 5% will be. If e.g. Tottenham had a deal where for for e.g 250,000 euro a year they had first call on any players from a given club they might be happier to have them stay in Ireland?

[galwayhoop]

I think system that facilitated players staying in Ireland until they were 21 would be great. I think then if they had the talent and foreign clubs were prepared to pay the money they good go and at least they would have a Leaving Cert behind them and experience of playing for successful clubs who are playing in Europe season after seaon. They would also be more mature when they go abroad. I think if a system like this could be developed it woudl be good for all concerned.


spot on here Neil. it would also mean if things didn't work out with the club they go over to then they know they can come back to the eL and carry on. even if they go over at 19/20 it would be ok. at least then the clubs are looking at them on the basis of 'are they going to break into the first team?' as opposed to at 15 when they are amassing scores of lads with the hope of 1 or 2 of them making their first team.

unlike all the young lads who come back at 18/19 and feel that they are failures and opt out of the game altogether these lads would have a grounding in the eL and be able to pick up where they left off.

[tetsujin1979]

One option for this is is for eL clubs to have feeder deals with English/Scottish/Other?? sides.

not an eL club, but Man City had a deal with Cherry Orchard, I don't know if it's still going though
I think Shels had a deal with United a while ago too

[jebus]

Odd that I find the remarks of people claiming that English clubs are racist to Irish clubs to be quite racist themselves :)

[wws]

Odd that I find the remarks of people claiming that English clubs are racist to Irish clubs to be quite racist themselves :)

thats racist

[pete]

Any centrally run scheme to keep U21 players in this country should have requirement that they finish their Leaving Cert & continue some form of 3rd level education.

[tricky_colour]

Apparently Arsenal won't take anyone other than a white Anglo-Saxon born within the sound of Bow Bells.

[Irish_Praha]

not an eL club, but Man City had a deal with Cherry Orchard, I don't know if it's still going though
I think Shels had a deal with United a while ago too

Home Farm Everton too.

[pete]

The sooner Reading sell him the better. I'd approve of 5m now instead of waiting for more later on.

[kingdom hoop]

The sooner Reading sell him the better. I'd approve of 5m now instead of waiting for more later on.


The better for doyle or reading? do you think kevin has shown all he can do and that villa would be the next step up the ladder? both managers are excellent harnessers of talent so no complaints either way club wise, but you seem to be suggesting that doyle is having a michael rickettsesque season and should be cashed in on?? a worrying opinion if so