Shay Given

[TrapAPony]

I'd start both against Poland.

So would I. Given with a defence of Coleman, O'Shea, Clark & Wilson is the best we have at the moment and all are reliable.

[DeLorean]

Actually think Clark was giving off to Given for not coming to collect, and Given was telling him to chill out, he did the right thing. Clark was the unhappy one, Shay got defensive but seemed to be telling him just to be cool.

Looked to me like Clark thought Given was about to give him a high five for clearing his lines, but instead Given went off on one and Clark responded by saying he had to clear it because Given never came. Worked out okay anyway. Whatever about Given, Clark has to play v Poland and the rest I think.

[Stuttgart88]

I only saw a few minutes and Clark won a phenomenal header under pressure late on. I like a lot about Clark but feel he gets drawn into sucker positions every now and again. That said, I think Vila were all at sea under Lambert and a CB is always going to bear the brunt of a collective failure of organisation. We need a bit more time to assess Clark.

Given is clearly fit enough to play a big game and Forde is shipping goals left right and centre - even if it's not his fault. Just for coolness and experience Given has to start this massive game. I can't comment on KW's form but I'd be surprised if he could walk into the Poland game without some mental baggage we could do without.

[Charlie Darwin]

What mental baggage would Westwood have?

[Stuttgart88]

Baggage may not be the best word, but keepers are very introspective players. In my opinion, other things being equal, Given would walk out onto that pitch feeling the
pitch, the stands and the occasion are his, whereas Westwood would be thinking all this could be his if only things go his way. Don't get me wrong: I think Westwood is like Kiely sometimes. Kiely stepped into the jersey with never a fuss whenever he was called upon. Once, I think against Turkey?, he came in as sub and took a high ball under pressure with his first touch as if he was plucking an apple from a tree, and sometimes I see the same in Westwood. But not always, once or twice he has looked compromised by the occasion.

If Westwood started a campaign in the jersey I'd have no issues, but as a guy with a point to prove in a massive game I'd prefer Given. I think his M'boro form last year and the composure and class he has shown for Villa, not to mention a good showing against USA, show that his 2012 form was a low point rather than a sign of permanent decline. Schwarzer and Friedel show that age isn't critical in a keeper and right now I'd take Given's gravitas, solidity and confidence over agile and razor sharp for this game.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Thought provoking stuff.

I wonder if Ward remains on the bench - and out of match practice - for Burnley will O'Neill be tempted to play Wilson at left back and start Keogh alongside O'Shea again.

Keogh on current form up against Lewandowski is a very sobering thought. Pity that Delaney is out of the picture. Hopefully Clark would get the nod over Keogh but I think O'Neill has a worrying preference for Keogh.

I do worry also about where the goals are going to come from.

The tendency to shoehorn Walters somewhere into the starting lineup for every single competitive game is also very worrying.

If Keane is the focal point of the attack and Long isn't played as a lone striker then it should be Long starting instead of Walters on the wing. He will be much more of a distraction to the Poles and he will do a much better job of making incisive runs, creating space, winning free kicks and slowing down play than Walters. They were just getting in their way against Scotland so that partnership won't work again.

It's Walters and not Long who would make more sense as a substitution if we are holding on to something - and that should be the goal. Starting Walters will just send the wrong message to the opposition team about what our gameplan is all about - again.

I do think if you could find a way to incorporate Hoolahan, Long and Keane into the same team, it could work. O'Neill needs to find a way to do it.

[Charlie Darwin]

Baggage may not be the best word, but keepers are very introspective players. In my opinion, other things being equal, Given would walk out onto that pitch feeling the
pitch, the stands and the occasion are his, whereas Westwood would be thinking all this could be his if only things go his way. Don't get me wrong: I think Westwood is like Kiely sometimes. Kiely stepped into the jersey with never a fuss whenever he was called upon. Once, I think against Turkey?, he came in as sub and took a high ball under pressure with his first touch as if he was plucking an apple from a tree, and sometimes I see the same in Westwood. But not always, once or twice he has looked compromised by the occasion.

If Westwood started a campaign in the jersey I'd have no issues, but as a guy with a point to prove in a massive game I'd prefer Given. I think his M'boro form last year and the composure and class he has shown for Villa, not to mention a good showing against USA, show that his 2012 form was a low point rather than a sign of permanent decline. Schwarzer and Friedel show that age isn't critical in a keeper and right now I'd take Given's gravitas, solidity and confidence over agile and razor sharp for this game.
I'll have to bow to your greater goalkeeping knowledge, but I can't say I've spotted any sort of shakiness in Westwood's psyche. In fact, I have found he's the sort of goalkeeper who seems to step up to any challenge with relative ease.


it should be Long starting instead of Walters on the wing.
I'm going to frame this.

[Stuttgart88]

I think Walters deserves more credit for what he has done this season than he is getting. Long still has plenty to prove. We know he's an athlete and tough to handle but so is Walters, and he scores more and plays more. I don't think anyone is advocating Keogh over Clark and I'd say nobody wants a non-match-fit Ward over Wilson. Let's see what O'Neill does before sticking the knife in.

That said, I read a newspaper match report of a Derby game last week and Keogh very nearly scored twice. Two goal line clearances from his headers I think.

[Stuttgart88]

I'll have to bow to your greater goalkeeping knowledge, but I can't say I've spotted any sort of shakiness in Westwood's psyche. In fact, I have found he's the sort of goalkeeper who seems to step up to any challenge with relative ease.

He looked a bit shell shocked early last season at Sunderland, no? Who'd you prefer to start on 29th?

[Charlie Darwin]

He looked a bit shell shocked early last season at Sunderland, no? Who'd you prefer to start on 29th?
Last season? Not as far as I can recall. He was Poyet's first choice and he was livid when Paul McShane knocked him out.

Personally, though I haven't seen him play for Millwall recently, I'd stick with Forde if he's still performing in training. We can all remember Shay performing heroics for us and going back to Newcastle and getting pumped for five or six on a weekly basis. Forde's earned the same benefit of the doubt I think.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

You know what I meant Charlie.

And Walters got stuck in and harried against Germany (a) but I think starting Long would send more of a positive message about what we are aspiring to against Poland - and what we should be aspiring to in a home game - since he has greater nous, link up play, pace and is more of a handful for defenders.

I would rather take a chance on Long starting for his pace and ability to create chances for himself on the counter attack than I would Walters, where chances - and you don't get many at this level - are spurned because of his touch and lack of pace. Long's heading ability is also invaluable in this team because, frankly, there is nobody in the team who comes close in heading ability. I know there is also a question about temperament when it comes to Long but there have been several notable flashpoints with Walters' temperament at club level ie. Norwich & Georgia (not that I think it's much of an issue for either player).

I'm probably beating a dead horse here but 75% of the time Walters is directly competing with either Brady or Long for a place on the team and I simply think Brady & Long offer more positive attributes.

Now I don't mean to sound like I am belittling Walters workrate or defensive capabilities but I have watched Long play in midfield positions for Southampton often enough, and Brady has got plaudits for keeping Robertson out of the Hull team due to his defensive capabilities often enough, to know that it isn't good enough a reason for Walters to keep these players out of the team.

[DeLorean]

Clark wasn't playing regularly for Villa when Keogh started ahead of him. Keogh was also playing well at Derby at the time. Totally different situation now... just hope MON recognises that. I think we have to persevere with Clark full stop, even if he has a shaky outing. It pretty obvious he's got more talent than the likes of Keogh and Pearce, and possibly even Wilson at centre back. It also solves the left back conundrum, which is a massive bonus.

Walters is going to play no matter what, arguably on merit but I agree with TOWK that Long would play the wide role more effectively, if that's where Walters is going to be used.

I agree with Stutts regarding Given but totally disagree regarding Westwood. As discussed before, I think he got badly blocked off for a corner early last season which led to a goal, but that's hardly enough evidence to suggest any mental fragility. I'd prefer either of them over Forde from now on. Forde has done fine, pretty well actually at times, but I just don't think he's as good as Given or Westwood.

[zero]

I'd prefer either of them over Forde from now on. Forde has done fine, pretty well actually at times, but I just don't think he's as good as Given or Westwood.

i'd go along with this. the 'he hasn't done anything wrong' line doesn't really convince me. if (and it's looking pretty likely) millwall get relegated, do we persist with playing a league one keeper?

when he was available for transfer before signing his new contract, nobody came in for him - why was that?

the other two look more mobile and convincing to me. i would go with westwood.

[Charlie Darwin]

i'd go along with this. the 'he hasn't done anything wrong' line doesn't really convince me.
Who said that? Forde has done very well and won us points on his own over the past two years. Not to mention he's been far more reliable in that time than Given was in his final year.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

i'd go along with this. the 'he hasn't done anything wrong' line doesn't really convince me. if (and it's looking pretty likely) millwall get relegated, do we persist with playing a league one keeper?

when he was available for transfer before signing his new contract, nobody came in for him - why was that?

the other two look more mobile and convincing to me. i would go with westwood.

Didn't a Bundesliga team come in for him? He alluded to several different offers, including one from a Bundesliga team, but he chose to stay at perennial relegation fodder.

If it was an Australian or American team coming in for him, he probably wouldn't have minded uprooting though.

[DeLorean]

Who said that?

It has been said plenty times that Forde hasn't done anything to warrant being dropped. Him winning us points on his own is only really relevant if you think he won us points that either Given or Westwood wouldn't have. Personally I feel the other two would earn us more.

[Charlie Darwin]

It has been said plenty times that Forde hasn't done anything to warrant being dropped. Him winning us points on his own is only really relevant if you think he won us points that either Given or Westwood wouldn't have. Personally I feel the other two would earn us more.
Fair enough. I think the evidence of their most recent caps suggest it's very unlikely they would.

[zero]

Didn't a Bundesliga team come in for him? He alluded to several different offers, including one from a Bundesliga team, but he chose to stay at perennial relegation fodder.

If it was an Australian or American team coming in for him, he probably wouldn't have minded uprooting though.

i am probably being a bit dismissive of those kinds of stories which typically surface when a player is after a new contract. but he does state there was an offer from the bundesliga:

http://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/soccer/soccer-news/david-forde-considering-move-bundesliga-3622664

so fair enough.

in the end this is a matter of opinion. i think westwood / given are better players than forde. others don't. i cite respective club career/form as one reason of why i think the others are better; in my opinion there are not enough international fixtures to use those game alone (along with performance in training) to decide who plays in goal.

[tetsujin1979]

Didn't a Bundesliga team come in for him? He alluded to several different offers, including one from a Bundesliga team, but he chose to stay at perennial relegation fodder.

If it was an Australian or American team coming in for him, he probably wouldn't have minded uprooting though.
Big difference in moving to Australia or the states, no language barrier for one thing. With the amount of emigrants in both countries, there's a decent chance he'd have a support network there - I've cousins and friends in the states, and mates in Australia but nobody in mainland Europe

[DannyInvincible]

i am probably being a bit dismissive of those kinds of stories which typically surface when a player is after a new contract. but he does state there was an offer from the bundesliga:

http://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/soccer/soccer-news/david-forde-considering-move-bundesliga-3622664

so fair enough.

Just to nip this in the bud before you allow yourself to believe that Forde turned down an attractive Bundesliga offer because he had a cultural reluctance to move beyond the Anglosphere; like pretty much all leagues, the Bundesliga has a promotion-relegation system too, meaning there are also clubs in the Bundesliga that can suffer regular relegation. The fact is we don't know from where in Germany the offer came. Forde didn't state that there was an offer from the Bundesliga. That article's title mentions the Bundesliga, but Forde himself stated the offer came from Germany. Even if it was from the Bundesliga, he might have been offered a back-up role at a relatively minor team, for all we know. We simply don't know, so I don't think anyone is in any position to judge his turning down of such an offer when we know next to nothing about it. He even said he would have "no problem moving" to Germany.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Yes, zero. Forde speaks to the journalists who carried that story on a regular basis as he has regular contact with them as one of Millwall's senior players.

And the link you posted, along with several others (Irish Independent) does refer to a Bundesliga team, as you said.

Now as others say, it is hard uprooting to a foreign country but an opportunity like this doesn't come along for many footballers from these isles and should be considered more of an attraction than it is.

Stephen Hunt has spoken of his regret at turning down a move to Valenciennes after continuing to turn his wheels in England.

My opinion that a challenge in the Bundesliga is more palatable than League One football next season.

But you're capable of having your own thoughts on the issue. I am not going to tell you what to think..

[SwanVsDalton]

Yes, zero. Forde speaks to the journalists who carried that story on a regular basis as he has regular contact with them as one of Millwall's senior players.

And the link you posted, along with several others (Irish Independent) does refer to a Bundesliga team, as you said.

Now as others say, it is hard uprooting to a foreign country but an opportunity like this doesn't come along for many footballers from these isles and should be considered more of an attraction than it is.

Stephen Hunt has spoken of his regret at turning down a move to Valenciennes after continuing to turn his wheels in England.

My opinion that a challenge in the Bundesliga is more palatable than League One football next season.

That doesn't take into account the family ties or club loyalty that a previously journeyman footballer feels for the team that gave him the opportunity to actually settle and fulfill his international ambitions.

Important context. Using an unsubstantial and vague German offer to Forde as a general example of Irish players lacking generally lacking ambition is really, really weak.

On Poland - I think Forde's could get dropped. Probably for Shay. Westwood might tear his hair out if that happened.

[SwanVsDalton]

Shay reckons competition for places in the Ireland setup is great (http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/international/2015/0330/690825-given-lauds-healthy-competition-for-places/) - well you would say that Shay. Somebody ask David Forde and Kieron Westwood what they think.

[DannyInvincible]

'Roy Keane saved my career, says Shay Given': http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/roy-keane-saved-my-career-says-shay-given-31154219.html


“Roy had a big role in me getting back into the Ireland squad and he probably had an influence on my return to the fold at Villa as well,” stated Given, who has won praise from new Villa boss Tim Sherwood in recent weeks.

“You’d have to ask Roy what happened, but possibly he spoke to Paul Lambert and they came up with that decision to bring me back in at Villa. I certainly think Roy was instrumental in getting me back with the Irish squad, definitely.

“It’s well-documented what happened to me at Villa. The club wanted a few players off the wage bill and I was one of them. So I was cast to one side or whatever you want to call it, Brad Guzan came in and did well. That happens in football at times.

“I was on loan at Middlesborugh last season and wanted to stay there, but then Roy came to the club and the manager took me to one side and said he wanted me to compete with Brad for a place in the team this season.

“Now it feels like I am getting even closer to playing again because the new manager because he has made it clear that everyone has a chance to play now, no matter what has gone before. It would be great to finish the season in the FA Cup final and hopefully win it. After that we will have a talk about what I do next.

“You doubt yourself when you are not in the team, of course you do, but this FA Cup run has shown, probably even to myself a little bit, that I have still got something to give. I certainly think I can still be playing by the time of the Euro 2016 finals if Ireland manage to qualify, that’s for sure.”

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/aston-villa-goalkeeper-shay-given-9074032

Given still "nagging" Grealish to choose Ireland.

I think Grealish has been fantastic since Sherwood gave him a chance. Stuff like Villa scoring four in a half against Sunderland having went 5 games without scoring under Lambert really shows up the folly of the Lambert reign.

[tricky_colour]

Nice to see Shay doing his bit, but at the end of the day it is Jacks decision.
I think his heart may say Ireland but his head England, usually better to go with your heart though.

[Charlie Darwin]

http://giant.gfycat.com/BlushingOrnateBlueandgoldmackaw.gif

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/premier-league/sherwood-ready-to-reward-given-with-start-against-city-31170115.html

Given could make first PL start in almost 3 years today.

[Charlie Darwin]

Guzan started, but got his wall all wrong there for Kolarov's free kick that's just finished the game.

[Olé Olé]

Did you see what he did to gift Aguero the first? Sherwood must be ruing his decision not to start Given.


https://vine.co/v/eWbPYEjLEQ6

[Charlie Darwin]

I didn't see that, good grief. I didn't speak too cleverley before though - it's back to 2-1 and Villa are pushing.

[Olé Olé]

Indeed. If the decision to pick Guzan today was marginal, that margin has swung in Given's favour and then some.

[Charlie Darwin]

You'd think so. I've never particularly rated Guzan, good a shot-stopper as he is.

[Charlie Darwin]

Ireland's #1 in for Guzan. Bet Sherwood wishes he'd made that call sooner.

[SwanVsDalton]

Guzan was one of Villa's best players over the last couple of years but he hasn't been so hot in recent months. So I wouldn't underrate him, but he deserves to be dropped.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Looks like Given was at fault for Everton's second this afternoon.

[Charlie Darwin]

Bring back Guzan!

[SkStu]

He wasn't really. Looks to me like he got fouled, should've been a free out. He did well throughout actually.

[TrapAPony]

Keeps his place v West Ham. Good to see.:)

[Stuttgart88]

Played very assuredly according to SSN but Kevin Davies was causing him a lot of grief, standing in front of him at corners. Given lucky not to be penalised in one incident.

[Closed Account]

Played very assuredly according to SSN but Kevin Davies was causing him a lot of grief, standing in front of him at corners. Given lucky not to be penalised in one incident.
Jesus, did the stewards not do anything? Why? Did Preston not have a game at the same time? What's his problem?

[Stuttgart88]

Sorry, meant Kevin Nolan!

Anyway, having seen it on TV it looked like Shay allowed himself to get too pre-occupied with Nolan instead of focusing on the flight of the ball. Nolan did little wrong in my opinion.

[zero]

Sorry, meant Kevin Nolan!

Anyway, having seen it on TV it looked like Shay allowed himself to get too pre-occupied with Nolan instead of focusing on the flight of the ball. Nolan did little wrong in my opinion.

looks like something the opposition managers have decided to target. didn't he have a very similar issue in the previous game?

that said, 3 wins i think for villa in a row with given starting? he has effectively reclaimed the #1 jersey. can only be good for ireland and to be fair he holds the shirt now for us aswell.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

http://www.villatalk.com/index.php/topic/7930-the-shay-given-thread/page-51

Villa fans on the warpath.

[Charlie Darwin]

Haha as if Guzan would have saved Long's second. Complaints about him not being commanding in the air are valid, as they have been for a decade, but blaming the goalkeeper when your entire team, including "world class" Captain Vlaar, goes to **** is a bit stupid.

[Crosby87]

Captain Vlarr was Picards mortal enemy.

[SwanVsDalton]

http://www.villatalk.com/index.php/topic/7930-the-shay-given-thread/page-51

Villa fans on the warpath.

Ahhh please, don't bring that forum in here would ye? Villa fans are permanently on the warpath over there and, more than that, its level of analysis makes OWC look like the Greek enlightenment.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

I wonder what they would make of some of the recent threads/posts on this forum...

I don't give a flying monkeys about Northern Ireland fans. You can't paint everyone with the same brush. I am sure there are plenty of daft people there. I am sure there are plenty of people who aren't so daft when they aren't having p*ssing matches over player eligibility with Irish fans. I am sure there are plenty of people who don't get bogged down by that stuff and would rather talk about on the field issues.

As it is, VillaTalk is the main Aston Villa forum, and I thought it would be interesting to share their views on Given's recent performances, seeing as they actually watch the players week in and week out. I never said I shared their opinions, so don't deflect this on to me.

Foot.ie isn't a utopia! You can share anything as long as it is on topic and tasteful.

[Closed Account]

I wonder what they would make of some of the recent threads/posts on this forum...

I don't give a flying monkeys about Northern Ireland fans. You can't paint everyone with the same brush. I am sure there are plenty of daft people there. I am sure there are plenty of people who aren't so daft when they aren't having p*ssing matches over player eligibility with Irish fans. I am sure there are plenty of people who don't get bogged down by that stuff and would rather talk about on the field issues.

As it is, VillaTalk is the main Aston Villa forum, and I thought it would be interesting to share their views on Given's recent performances, seeing as they actually watch the players week in and week out. I never said I shared their opinions, so don't deflect this on to me.

Foot.ie isn't a utopia! You can share anything as long as it is on topic and tasteful.
Relax

[SwanVsDalton]

I wonder what they would make of some of the recent threads/posts on this forum...

I don't give a flying monkeys about Northern Ireland fans. You can't paint everyone with the same brush. I am sure there are plenty of daft people there. I am sure there are plenty of people who aren't so daft when they aren't having p*ssing matches over player eligibility with Irish fans. I am sure there are plenty of people who don't get bogged down by that stuff and would rather talk about on the field issues.

As it is, VillaTalk is the main Aston Villa forum, and I thought it would be interesting to share their views on Given's recent performances, seeing as they actually watch the players week in and week out. I never said I shared their opinions, so don't deflect this on to me.

Foot.ie isn't a utopia! You can share anything as long as it is on topic and tasteful.

Chill down TOWHULK - I wasn't haven't a go, I didn't say you couldn't share it (I did say 'please' and then explained why) and I wasn't saying it wasn't a valid post. I'm just offering my view on the quality of VillaTalk's posting in general as a self-loathing semi-regular.

Of course the views of Villa fans are of interest, just adding my opinion on the source of those views.

I understand the irony of posting on an internet football forum about the varying qualities about other internet football forums, but I don't mind saying the quality of debate and moderation around these parts is far, far, far better than Villa Talk or OWC.

So - what Joe Denilson said.