Shay Given

[seanfhear]

Where's Owls Fan this morning?!

Shay got close to one penalty out of 8 in Stoke's 8-7 shoot out win over Luton last night. 8 penalties, none saved, one miss. First two straight down the middle. Radio 5 Live said he got a touch on one, nowhere near the others.

In finance they often joke about how a monkey picking stocks at random often beats the professionals. How is it that Shay, a renowned shot stopper, actually seems to be a near liability in shoot outs?He is a bit of a midget in goalkeeping terms.
A giant of a goalkeeper may make that goal look a lot smaller when the pressure is on the penalty taker and the giant has more body to hit. Hopefully the giant will also be a bit nimble. Peter Shilton was another that never did great at penalties in my opinion.

[OwlsFan]

Where's Owls Fan this morning?!

Shay got close to one penalty out of 8 in Stoke's 8-7 shoot out win over Luton last night. 8 penalties, none saved, one miss. First two straight down the middle. Radio 5 Live said he got a touch on one, nowhere near the others.

In finance they often joke about how a monkey picking stocks at random often beats the professionals. How is it that Shay, a renowned shot stopper, actually seems to be a near liability in shoot outs?

Don't be opening old wounds :( Didn't see the shoot out. Should he not say to himself "I'll go the opposite way to where I think he is going to put it".

[DeLorean]

He's about the same height as Iker Casillas who's a brilliant penalty stopper. There are advantages to being a bit smaller too in the sense that, in theory, you should be able to move that bit quicker and find it easier to get down to the low shots. Being bigger obviously gives you a better reach though and, like Seanfhear says, makes it more intimidating for the taker.

I always thought Given guesses too early anyway, making up the takers mind for him. I think, given this inexplicable Achilles' heel, he'd be better off waiting for the ball to be struck and just follow it. At least then he gives himself a chance of saving the poorly struck shots or the ones that aren't in the corner.

[seanfhear]

I do have to admit that you do get some small goal keepers that are good at saving penalties. It just a talent that some people have.

Mark Crossley(not small I believe) of Nottingham Forest was considered one of the best at it was probably no accident that he saved one from LeTissier. The only one that LeTissier did not convert.

Dave Beasant was also a good penalty stopper. I think it was even suggested that England should have substituted Shilton for Beasant all the way back in 1990 world cup a la Louis Van Gaal with Holland more recently.

I don't know if Shilton was good on penalties when he was younger but he certainly was poor when he got older.

[DeLorean]

Peter Schmeichel was pretty poor also, although he did famously save two crucial ones from Van Basten (92) and Bergkamp (99). They were very similar penalties actually.

[tetsujin1979]

In Kerr's second last game, away to Cyprus, Given saved a penalty to keep it 1-0 to Ireland. It was my brother's 18th birthday and I still remember the Cypriot player lining up to take the spot kick and thinking "you know, I've never seen Given save a penalty"

In a review of those qualifiers on RTE the following Christmas, Eamon Dunphy made the point that, as the qualifiers progressed, it was Given's performances that dictacted the results, which I still think is one of the best pieces of analysis he's ever made.

[DeLorean]

I saw that in the staff canteen on break at work. Given was brilliant the same evening, we were very fortunate to hold on if I remember right. An early Stephen Elliott goal!

[OwlsFan]

Relatively easy night last night but nervous on some back passes and poor clearances/distribution generally.

[nigel-harps1954]

Thought his kicking was awful for the best part. A shade of the Shay Given we all know. Need to be looking to the future, as much as Shay is a proper Irish legend, and one of our all time great players, I don't think he should be our first choice goalkeeper. I'd say Darren Randolph needs to be given his chance.

[elroy]

Westwood or Randolph for me if we make it to euros.
Too late to make a change during the qualifying campaign imo

[DannyInvincible]

I know it won't happen, but I'd desperately love if Westwood was to play against Germany and Poland. I just don't trust Shay any longer and I fear he could prove a liability against very much superior opposition.

[Stuttgart88]

If everyone is fit Westwood is our best keeper. Randolph against Germany would be crazy even if it would be fair to give him his chance sometime soon.

[Kingdom]

I thought he was atrocious the other night in a match with little to do.

Instead of stupid questioning from TOD, I'd love O'Neill to be asked why does Given not roll the ball to his full-backs, centre-backs or deep-lying midfielder, when it's clear they want the ball? Is it a manager's tactic, or what?

[SkStu]

He was cack alright.

[Charlie Darwin]

I thought he did a good job with the quick throws during the 10 minutes or so of pressure leading up to the goal. Otherwise, it was just too slow, and I've long wondered whether it's tactics or just the fact he's indecisive/not confident in his passing.

[Fixer82]

I thought he was atrocious the other night in a match with little to do.

Instead of stupid questioning from TOD, I'd love O'Neill to be asked why does Given not roll the ball to his full-backs, centre-backs or deep-lying midfielder, when it's clear they want the ball? Is it a manager's tactic, or what?

He still gives me nightmares on the pass-back

[TrapAPony]

He still gives me nightmares on the pass-back

Same here. He is slower than a tortoise in clearing the ball & either hits it out of play or almost gets blocked down

[Fixer82]

Same here. He is slower than a tortoise in clearing the ball & either hits it out of play or almost gets blocked down

He doesn't actually look like a natural footballer with the ball at his feet.
Compare him to say Stephen Cluxton who looks like he could easily play outfield in soccer or GAA.
Of course it's hypothetical but I hope you see what I mean

[Kingdom]

Cluxton does play outfield for Parnells, Centre back as far as I know.

[Stuttgart88]

If you'll forgive me, but my little fella (10 in 2 weeks) is a goalie and his nickname at soccer camp last summer was "mini Nauer". He's goalie for his club, right midfield for his school.

Anyway, we were in the park last week and I was rifling passes to his feet (and well wide of his feet too, truth be told). His first touch was impeccable each time. The little fcuker just has it and I hate him for it! Then I saw Shay miscontrolling that back pass on Monday and thought that the game has moved on from Shay's heyday. Top class goalies these days have to be pretty handy all round, and scouts / managers know it.

[DeLorean]

The little fcuker just has it and I hate him for it!

Don't worry, he'll always be 'mini-Stutts' to us.

[DeLorean]

As for Given, he's no worse (possibly better?) than Forde before him when it came to dealing with back passes, at least he kind of balloons them somewhere relatively safe.

[Stuttgart88]

And in fairness Shay remained remarkably cool having ballsed up. His calmness is what rescued him. Westwood is a natural with ball at feet. Forde has a wonderful kick of a static ball but you'd get the impression he wouldn't stand out as an outfield player in a regular game of 5 a side.

[Charlie Darwin]

If you'll forgive me, but my little fella (10 in 2 weeks) is a goalie and his nickname at soccer camp last summer was "mini Nauer". He's goalie for his club, right midfield for his school.

Anyway, we were in the park last week and I was rifling passes to his feet (and well wide of his feet too, truth be told). His first touch was impeccable each time. The little fcuker just has it and I hate him for it! Then I saw Shay miscontrolling that back pass on Monday and thought that the game has moved on from Shay's heyday. Top class goalies these days have to be pretty handy all round, and scouts / managers know it.
Check out Superdad over here with the most talented kid in the world.

[elroy]

I know it won't happen, but I'd desperately love if Westwood was to play against Germany and Poland. I just don't trust Shay any longer and I fear he could prove a liability against very much superior opposition.

WW had a nightmare last time we played the Germans at home

[DeLorean]

A nightmare in what sense? Obviously losing 1-6 was a nightmare for all, but are you saying he had a particularly bad game? The first three he had no chance anyway. The last three you could probably pick holes but nothing too damning I think, possibly could have got across quicker to the two from Kroos but they were good strikes. They're actually the kind of goals I used feel Forde conceded quite a bit, hard to blame him too much but just that feeling he could have done better. I think Westwood is more capable of keeping them out on his really good days though. He probably should have held his ground a bit better for Klose's goal alright.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ux3gTgCXbtg

[Fixer82]

Cluxton does play outfield for Parnells, Centre back as far as I know.

I was sure he played in goal for Parnells too. And that he plays intermediate instead of senior.

[DeLorean]

Shay not giving up on Euros without a fight it seems (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/football/transfernews/6900868/Veteran-goalkeeper-Shay-Given-alerts-a-number-of-clubs-as-he-hints-at-Stoke-exit.html)

Does anybody think it will be anything other than Randolph, Elliot & Given at this point?

[NeverFeltBetter]

In that order, yeah.

[seanfhear]

Given is not worthy of a place on current form.

It does not give a good impression to players if a player is picked on criteria other that being the best player for that place in the squad.

[OwlsFan]

Shay not giving up on Euros without a fight it seems (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/football/transfernews/6900868/Veteran-goalkeeper-Shay-Given-alerts-a-number-of-clubs-as-he-hints-at-Stoke-exit.html)

Does anybody think it will be anything other than Randolph, Elliot & Given at this point?

It seems to imply, and he didn't get a loan deal yet, that unless he gets regular game time he won't be going. I hope that is the case because it would be a joke otherwise to bring a 39 year old who has no game time for over 6 months. Has to be Elliot, Westwood (if fit) and Randolph.

[DeLorean]

Has to be Elliot, Westwood (if fit) and Randolph.

Without question if Westwood's fitness isn't an issue but it's hard to know what's going on with him? I was talking to a big Wednesday fan recently (yes, there's another one over here :)) and he seems to think Westwood won't make the squad. He also mentioned that he grimaces a lot of the times he takes a goal kick or a free kick. Is this something you've noticed?

[samhaydenjr]

Shay not giving up on Euros without a fight it seems (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/football/transfernews/6900868/Veteran-goalkeeper-Shay-Given-alerts-a-number-of-clubs-as-he-hints-at-Stoke-exit.html)

Does anybody think it will be anything other than Randolph, Elliot & Given at this point?

Based on current form, it really should be Randolph, Elliot and Bunn - of course that does mean we'd be going to the Euros with three goalkeepers who currently have 9 caps between them.

[DeLorean]

Bunn has hardly done enough to jump ahead of Westwood, form-wise?

[DeLorean]

In fact, if we're going on form, surely Morecambe's Barry Roche (http://www.thevisitor.co.uk/sport/morecambe-fc/shrimps-latest/barry-roche-first-goal-an-unbelievable-feeling-but-i-didn-t-know-how-to-celebrate-1-7711865) has to be worth a spot :D

Video (https://cdn.streamable.com/video/mp4-mobile/65xi.mp4)

[OwlsFan]

Without question if Westwood's fitness isn't an issue but it's hard to know what's going on with him? I was talking to a big Wednesday fan recently (yes, there's another one over here :)) and he seems to think Westwood won't make the squad. He also mentioned that he grimaces a lot of the times he takes a goal kick or a free kick. Is this something you've noticed?

Westwood is still getting great length on his kick-outs and can land them on occasions not that far short of the opponent's penalty area, so if he is carrying an injury (haven't noticed), it's not affecting that side of his game.


In fact, if we're going on form, surely Morecambe's Barry Roche (http://www.thevisitor.co.uk/sport/morecambe-fc/shrimps-latest/barry-roche-first-goal-an-unbelievable-feeling-but-i-didn-t-know-how-to-celebrate-1-7711865) has to be worth a spot :D

Video (https://cdn.streamable.com/video/mp4-mobile/65xi.mp4)

Nice finish. The thing about a keeper coming up, there is probably nothing in the pre-match team talk about who is to pick him up at a corner.

[brine3]

It seems to imply, and he didn't get a loan deal yet, that unless he gets regular game time he won't be going. I hope that is the case because it would be a joke otherwise to bring a 39 year old who has no game time for over 6 months. Has to be Elliot, Westwood (if fit) and Randolph.

He'll be 40 by the time the Euros start. His birthday is in April.

He should have retired from football a couple of years ago. Although, I can totally understand why he didn't. Dino Zoff captained Italy to the World Cup in 1982 at the age of 40. So keepers can perform at an older age. But it just hasn't been working out for Shay. Clubs will continue to pick an older keeper who keeps on performing, but an older keeper who hasn't been a regular in nearly four seasons? Don't see it happening.

[pineapple stu]

It's strange, because the one time in the past few years he did get regular football (Middlesboro aged 37), he seemed to do really well - 10 clean sheets in 16 games.

So he was still a decent player even after 18 months on the sidelines. Yet hasn't found regular football since.

[DeLorean]

I get the impression that Given just needs to get fit to make the squad, compared to some others who need to get game time. If Given is being brought for his experience in and around the squad (I can't think of any other reason at this stage) then does it really matter that much if he's fit or not?! Obviously in an emergency it would I suppose. Matt Cooper was talking to some Today FM sports guy about the situation yesterday, putting it to him that he can hardly start ahead of Randolph or Elliot at this stage. The other guy said yeah it's probably between Given and Forde for the third goalkeeper's spot. They both agreed what a great story it would be if Given could make it, over twenty years after making his debut for us... maybe we should give Packie a call altogher! Westwood wasn't even mentioned in their discussion.

Martin O'Neill keeping Euros door open for recovering Shay Given (http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2016/0303/772325-oneill-keeping-euros-door-open-for-shay-given/)

[OwlsFan]

I get the impression that Given just needs to get fit to make the squad, compared to some others who need to get game time. If Given is being brought for his experience in and around the squad (I can't think of any other reason at this stage) then does it really matter that much if he's fit or not?! Obviously in an emergency it would I suppose. Matt Cooper was talking to some Today FM sports guy about the situation yesterday, putting it to him that he can hardly start ahead of Randolph or Elliot at this stage. The other guy said yeah it's probably between Given and Forde for the third goalkeeper's spot. They both agreed what a great story it would be if Given could make it, over twenty years after making his debut for us... maybe we should give Packie a call altogher! Westwood wasn't even mentioned in their discussion.

Martin O'Neill keeping Euros door open for recovering Shay Given (http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2016/0303/772325-oneill-keeping-euros-door-open-for-shay-given/)

Between Given and Forde for the third goalkeeper spot? What sort of nonsense is that? Neither is playing at the moment and the acknowledged (By SKY at least :) ) best keeper in the Championship doesn't get a mention. Sigh...

[DeLorean]

That was just Matt Cooper's guest's take on it. I'd be surprised if Westwood isn't ahead of Forde, but I'm also getting the impression he's behind Given in MON's mind. Hope I'm wrong about the latter though.

[geysir]

In all our 5 Finals we have only used the nr.1 goalie, though I can think of one situation where we could have planned for a dutch substitution.

If Shay is going to be the nr3, then it will be because he's Shay Given the consummate professional and that's of more benefit to the squad than to have Westwood or Forde. It's the manager's choice.
Possibly we have a fear that if Shay is picked for the squad, then O´Neill will play him.

[Charlie Darwin]

I wouldn't be surprised if we took five goalkeepers.

[geysir]

Isn't it so that it's a squad of 22 but teams are allowed to have a third goalie?
What happened that they allowed a 3rd goalie to be added to a squad? Did 2 goalies in a squad have a drunken brawl and rendered each other unfit to play?

[pineapple stu]

I think the issue was that some countries (like us in 1990 and 94) took two keepers and decided to have an additional outfield player (20 instead of 19), which might actually be useful.

Countries who took three keepers were at a (marginal) disadvantage as a result. So FIFA compromised and said you have to take three keepers, and you have to have 20 outfield players too.

North Korea at the 2010 World Cup tried to get around that and declare an outfield player as a third choice keeper and were told that was grand provided he only played in nets in the tournament. So presumably, that means a David James-type sub (http://www.theguardian.com/football/2005/may/16/match.manchestercity) can't happen at the World Cup.

[DeLorean]

Butland out for the season and Given back in full training!

[Stuttgart88]

I have to say this actually worries me. I really don't want Shay starting in France. I like the way Randolph has taken on the role. He is confident and has presence. His distribution is fantastic.

[DeLorean]

Yeah I'd imagine Randolph will be our number one regardless but who knows.

[geysir]

You should be worried,
didn't someone here say that Mo'N is on record somewhere as saying that if Shay is fit, he'll be the nr 1, just as he was against Scotland and Germany in those do or die games.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

We are committing proverbial suicide if we start him as #1 in the summer.

Randolph oozes confidence and it radiates through the rest of the team.

I have lost a lot of respect for Given for several reasons over the last several years. Played in 2012 even though he was injured, putting himself before his country. Returns to the set up only after losing his place in the Villa team. Turns down a move with guaranteed first-team football so he could fatten his wallet.

He can buzz off. I don't buy this "his prior tournament experience will benefit the team" or "he is good for team spirit". Would he even bother his arse travelling with the rest of the team if he wasn't guaranteed the jersey?

Forde can do the job of motivating the team if it needs be.