Shane Ferguson

[Charlie Darwin]

That's part of it but I think the main reason is just the fact there have never been separate ROI and NI teams in rugby, or in most other sports. Northern rugby fans have never had a Northern Ireland team to buy into (even though Ulster was, until recently, an effective surrogate), therefore they're not married to the idea.

[liamoo11]

The north should be grateful they have an international team as should the scots and the welsh. Hard to believe there has not been major opposition to 4 seperate teams competing from the one nation especially as it becomes more difficult to qualify for world cups with The break up of eastern block. Congratulations to the northern lads who have been brave enough to play for the nation(Ireland) they associate with. I think it is a mark of respect to the northern nationalists of previous generations who didnt have the opportunity to play for their country

[ArdeeBhoy]

A Northern Ireland player does not need a British Passport to travel to most away games - an Irish one will do fine.

What relevance is Lennon's Passport? He's a Dual National - British and Irish.

So you're actually suggesting most of the North's squad have Irish passports??
Yeah right, it's not April 1st.

Lennon's was a slight red herring, but it was contentious elsewhere.

Regardless of what they're qualified for, unless they need both for work (eg. know a few boys who've worked on certain Brit. govt. contracts who had to have the relevant passport and were eligible for both), why would most people have two passports?

Think a figure of around 90-100k joint holders was quoted around the time this was first mentioned, who had joint citizenship/passports.
But it could be far more, willing to be corrected....


I imagine that the Ulster rugby team may be part of the reason why people are happy with the status quo in rugby too.

That's fair enough. Wouldn't dispute that.

But if you believe your rotund counterpart, they claim there was a 'Northern boycott' of the Irish rugby team.
Not just on the basis of what it represents....
;)

[Not Brazil]

So you're actually suggesting most of the North's squad have Irish passports??
Yeah right, it's not April 1st.


No, I'm not suggesting "most" of Northern Ireland's players have Irish Passports.

I am, however, telling you that several players, at all age groups (inc Senior), hold only Irish Passports.

[Not Brazil]

The north should be grateful they have an international team as should the scots and the welsh.

I'm sure the English will feel left out from the above.

Not only does the United Kingdom have four seperate Associations, the "guardians of the laws of the game", the International Football Association Board (composed of 8 members), has 4 members from the British Associations - the other 4 designated by FIFA.

I don't feel that the four oldest Associations in the world, should be in any way "grateful" to be autonomous.

[Predator]

The reason the Ferguson situation is different from all the others is that to date all of Ferguson's remarks have been of him saying he wants to play for NI and that he has no intention of joining the ROI. Something has obviously changed that opinion and in my book it's Nigel Worthington.When Shane Duffy was called into the same squad as Ferguson two years ago to play Italy, I recall a Derry Journal article where Duffy said that he had intentions of playing for the IFA. Then again, he was 17 and had only been called up to stop him thinking about declaring for the FAI (possibly the same reason Ferguson was called up, who knows?). Thankfully both of them came to their senses.

I think you're being a bit harsh on Worthington. What's the point in including a player who isn't interested? Was he in any underage squads recently? I'm sure that Ferguson would have been in some recent senior squads if he was interested in staying with the IFA.


Maybe when you wake up, you'll realise that Northern Irish footballers have a choice. Respect it.Indeed, could you remind your fellow fans of this fact, before they make fools of themselves with petitions and boycotts? Oh wait...

[Not Brazil]

Indeed, could you remind your fellow fans of this fact, before they make fools of themselves with petitions and boycotts? Oh wait...

Having read the petition, I note this in it:

"we must stress that we accept that some players from Northern Ireland will choose to represent the Republic of Ireland team. This is, of course, regrettable, but we absolutely and unequivocally respect their choice".

It seems to me that the objective of the Petition is not to deny choice.

Speaking for myself, my non attendance at the ROI and Wales matches is because of the IFA, not the FAI.

[Not Brazil]

I think you're being a bit harsh on Worthington. What's the point in including a player who isn't interested? Was he in any underage squads recently? I'm sure that Ferguson would have been in some recent senior squads if he was interested in staying with the IFA.


I think some fans are being harsh on Worthington in this instance too, although I think Worthington should have included Ferguson in the squad for the recent qualifiers against Serbia and Slovenia.

Anyway, Ferguson was interviewed for the "Happy Days" Northern Ireland fanzine recently (after the announcement of the squad for Serbia/Slovenia)

He was asked "will you be involved in the next series of Under 21 games?"

His response:

"Yeah, hopefully. The next lot of under 21 games are a couple of months away. I think the next one is away to the Faroe Islands and hopefully I'll be involved in that".

[Predator]

Having read the petition, I note this in it:

"we must stress that we accept that some players from Northern Ireland will choose to represent the Republic of Ireland team. This is, of course, regrettable, but we absolutely and unequivocally respect their choice".

It seems to me that the objective of the Petition is not to deny choice.That reads like a small concession to me, without much meaning - it is only a fleeting acceptance of the reality. The objection is to the fact that a player may make the switch to the FAI and the overall objective is effectively to deny the choice. So on the one hand NI fans say that they "absolutely and unequivocally respect [the players'] choice", while on the other they seek to deny that choice on the grounds that it is somehow "unethical" and "sectarian". What a bunch of disingenuous jokers.

[Not Brazil]

So on the one hand NI fans say that they "absolutely and unequivocally respect [the players'] choice", while on the other they seek to deny that choice on the grounds that it is somehow "unethical" and "sectarian". What a bunch of disingenuous jokers.

My reading of it is that the objective of the Petition is clear:

"As longstanding supporters of the Northern Ireland team we urge the IFA to act upon the following proposal: it must secure a public commitment from the FAI, or a joint statement from both associations to the same effect, that it will no longer select players who have represented Northern Ireland at U19 level and above, regardless of FIFA's rules and regardless of whether or not a senior cap was won in a friendly international. *This amounts to, in essence, the reintroduction of the gentleman's agreement which existed for over fifty years and worked to the mutual benefit of both associations"

Whilst I have certain reservations about the content of the petition, I do think there is substance in this bit.

"To those players considering switching allegiance, however, we say this: please do not accept a call-up from the IFA unless it is your intention to play for Northern Ireland. Your actions let down fans who give you unstinting support, waste the scarce resources of the IFA and, worst of all, deny a cap to someone who genuinely wanted it and would have been proud to accept it. Such expedient behaviour in denying another player the chance to win a cap, the highest honour in international football, is utterly unethical and reflects poorly on those who do it"

*I suspect the author(s) of the Open Letter are unaware of the "Gentleman's Agreement" agreed between the two Associations in Belfast in January 1999- the IFA represented at the time by Jim Boyce, with the FAI's then "top man", Bernard O'Byrne .

An "Agreement" with which Boyce stated he was "very happy".

[SwanVsDalton]

I don't think that's necessarily true - or maybe I'm being over-sympathetic to our NI brethren. ;)

My take would be they are not seeking to deny choice, so much as ensure players are fully aware of the issues before engaging in a commitment. The frustration and dissappointment of seeing a player develop before having them re-declare is palpable. I don't think it's a conflict of ideology to respect the players choice while seeking players (and associations) to respect the unique situation NI is in and take due consideration when accepting call-up's. It has to work both ways at some point surely.

While it would be far better if the wording reflected a bit of respect to the choices made by existing players, and jettisoned the absolutely infuriating notion of sectarianism, on the whole it's seems a slightly more progressive response than the usual OWC claptrap.

[geysir]

"To those players considering switching allegiance, however, we say this: please do not accept a call-up from the IFA unless it is your intention to play for Northern Ireland. Your actions let down fans who give you unstinting support, waste the scarce resources of the IFA and, worst of all, deny a cap to someone who genuinely wanted it and would have been proud to accept it. Such expedient behaviour in denying another player the chance to win a cap, the highest honour in international football, is utterly unethical and reflects poorly on those who do it"

That's a pile of emotionally retarded cráp.

[Predator]

"As longstanding supporters of the Northern Ireland team we urge the IFA to act upon the following proposal: it must secure a public commitment from the FAI, or a joint statement from both associations to the same effect, that it will no longer select players who have represented Northern Ireland at U19 level and above, regardless of FIFA's rules and regardless of whether or not a senior cap was won in a friendly international. This amounts to, in essence, the reintroduction of the gentleman's agreement which existed for over fifty years and worked to the mutual benefit of both associations"

And the objective of denying the choice of the player to play for the FAI is still implicit. It's just seeking a case whereby the FAI would be the one who is denying a player the choice.



"To those players considering switching allegiance, however, we say this: please do not accept a call-up from the IFA unless it is your intention to play for Northern Ireland. Your actions let down fans who give you unstinting support, waste the scarce resources of the IFA and, worst of all, deny a cap to someone who genuinely wanted it and would have been proud to accept it. Such expedient behaviour in denying another player the chance to win a cap, the highest honour in international football, is utterly unethical and reflects poorly on those who do it"

Substance? It's outright derision of a player exercising his right as a dual national to play for the IFA or the FAI, with a guilt-trip thrown in in an attempt to give it an added moral dimension.


I don't think it's a conflict of ideology to respect the players choice while seeking players (and associations) to respect the unique situation NI is in and take due consideration when accepting call-up's. It has to work both ways at some point surely.In essence, it is announcing an unequivocal respect for choice while blatantly seeking to undermine it and ultimately, to take it away.

Why should a kid be expected to make a switch when it suits the fans or the IFA? It is and should remain the individual's prerogative, in my view.

[SwanVsDalton]

"To those players considering switching allegiance, however, we say this: please do not accept a call-up from the IFA unless it is your intention to play for Northern Ireland. Your actions let down fans who give you unstinting support, waste the scarce resources of the IFA and, worst of all, deny a cap to someone who genuinely wanted it and would have been proud to accept it. Such expedient behaviour in denying another player the chance to win a cap, the highest honour in international football, is utterly unethical and reflects poorly on those who do it"

That's a pile of emotionally retarded cráp.

Totally melodramatic sure and I don't agree with the wording at all. But I can't blame fans for being impassioned or trying to protect their own interests, even if they get hysterical in the process.

Think it should be noted I think internet petitions are utterly lame btw. :)

[SwanVsDalton]

Substance? It's outright derision of a player exercising his right as a dual national to play for the IFA or the FAI, with a guilt-trip thrown in in an attempt to give it an added moral dimension.

In essence, it is announcing an unequivocal respect for choice while blatantly seeking to undermine it and ultimately, to take it away.

Why should a kid be expected to make a switch when it suits the fans or the IFA? It is and should remain the individual's prerogative, in my view.

Absolutely agree. But (and I'm not necessarily saying I agree with this U-19 gentleman's agreement) how does declaring early or turning down the IFA at any age inhibit choice? Fair enough - it would be more inhibitive than for other dual nationals, who would likely get to pick and choose without not so much of a fuss.

But given the unique situation this is, I don't think it's unfair to call for players to be more aware of the obligations of accepting a call-up. The younger you go, the thornier that issue gets but certainly, with full internationals, it should be fairly obvious if a player wants to play for ROI or NI.

Genuinely the only major problem I can see, off the top of my head, is a player being subsequently shunned by an association for chasing a cap for one over another - but we have our own Jermaine Pennant debates all the time and we can live with those.

The wording, as ever, absolutely dreadful - but the glimmer of the idea seems to be that a compromise should be possible, one that doesn't inhibit choice. Without going all hippy dippy on it (kumbaya) - isn't that something we'd all like to see?

And, in hindsight, let's just say the more attention I pay to the wording of the petition the more I'm going to distance myself from it...;)

[awec]

"To those players considering switching allegiance, however, we say this: please do not accept a call-up from the IFA unless it is your intention to play for Northern Ireland. Your actions let down fans who give you unstinting support, waste the scarce resources of the IFA and, worst of all, deny a cap to someone who genuinely wanted it and would have been proud to accept it. Such expedient behaviour in denying another player the chance to win a cap, the highest honour in international football, is utterly unethical and reflects poorly on those who do it"

That's a pile of emotionally retarded cráp.

How is it? I don't think it's unfair to suggest that players should not waste our time if they have no intention of playing for us.

[liamoo11]

[QUOTE=Not Brazil;1487661]My reading of it is that the objective of the Petition is clear: *This amounts to, in essence, the reintroduction of the gentleman's agreement which existed for over fifty years and worked to the mutual benefit of both associations"
*I suspect the author(s) of the Open Letter are unaware of the "Gentleman's Agreement" agreed between the two Associations in Belfast in January 1999- the IFA represented at the time by Jim Boyce, with the FAI's then "top man", Bernard O'Byrne .]


How dare anyone decide on a "gentlemans agreement" to deny an irishman or woman to represent their nation. Bernard O Byrne or whoever else in the FAI allowed this down through the years should be ashamed of themselves.

[liamoo11]

I'm sure the English will feel left out from the above.

Not only does the United Kingdom have four seperate Associations, the "guardians of the laws of the game", the International Football Association Board (composed of 8 members), has 4 members from the British Associations - the other 4 designated by FIFA.

I don't feel that the four oldest Associations in the world, should be in any way "grateful" to be autonomous.

The english wont feel left out for the simple reason that a united kingdom team will be referred to as english. FIFA is a corrupt organisation with the most corrupt aspect been the existance of 4 pseudo nations been allowed play international football when they are simply components of one nation the UK.

[Stuttgart88]

Excuse my laziness, but did the CAS / Daniel Kearns judgment not refute the existence of any "gentlemen's agreement"? I thought it did but genuinely am not sure and not particularly fussed to investigate at nearly 11pm.

[boovidge]

The english wont feel left out for the simple reason that a united kingdom team will be referred to as english. FIFA is a corrupt organisationwith the most corrupt aspect been the existance of 4 pseudo nations been allowed play international football when they are simply components of one nation the UK.

Absolute rubbish. Are FIFA corrupt because Faroe Islands have a team? England, Scotland and Wales all have a great footballing history as the oldest associations after pretty much codifying and inventing the modern international game. Why would you want to destroy that history just because you have some chip on your shoulder?

[Sullivinho]

Excuse my laziness, but did the CAS / Daniel Kearns judgment not refute the existence of any "gentlemen's agreement"? I thought it did but genuinely am not sure and not particularly fussed to investigate at nearly 11pm.


In contrast to non-binding rules of conduct such as gentlemen’s agreements, contracts forming a binding agreement require the mutual agreement of the parties. Such agreement may be either express or implied (Article 1 of the Swiss Code of Obligations). There is an implied agreement only when the behaviour of the party alleged to have agreed is consistent only with its having done so. In general, a passive behaviour cannot be held to amount to an agreement to be bound by a contract (ATF 123 III 53, 59). In other words, silence does not imply consent (François Dessemontet, in Commentaire Romand, Code des Obligations I, Bâle 2003, p. 14, ad. Art. 1, N. 32).


Finally, the existence of a “contract implied by conduct” is denied by the FAI, which disputes that it has ever discussed the status of Irish citizens living in Northern Ireland or accepted that Irish citizens could not be selected for its teams, whether living in Northern Ireland or elsewhere. The contrary has not, in the Panel’s view, been established by the IFA. In any event the IFA’s evidence fell short of establishing the binding nature of the alleged agreement or the legal/regulatory basis which would allow it to supersede Articles 15 to 18 of the 2009 Application Regulations.

'In any event, the alleged tacit agreement may not be used to defeat the claim of Mr Kearns, who was of course not a party to any such agreement and who, in any event, is entitled to exercise his rights as provided under Article 15 and 18 of the 2009 Application Regulations.'

Source (PDF) (Page 25) (http://www.tas-cas.org/d2wfiles/document/4385/5048/0/Award%202071.pdf)

[awec]

Absolute rubbish. Are FIFA corrupt because Faroe Islands have a team? England, Scotland and Wales all have a great footballing history as the oldest associations after pretty much codifying and inventing the modern international game. Why would you want to destroy that history just because you have some chip on your shoulder?
I think he was trolling.

[Sullivinho]

Your enquiry is quite pertinent Stuttgart. From the CAS report and regarding the legendary gentlemen's agreement, it appears the FAI denied complicity, the IFA couldn't prove it's existence and the CAS concluded that it didn't actually matter anyway!

From what I can see, the solid core beneath the drivel of the 'Open letter to the Irish Football Association' calls for an agreement (gentlemen at the ready) to be established between the two associations which, to quote CAS, "may not be used to defeat the claims" of someone who wishes to switch associations anyway because individual players would "not be party to any such agreement".

That's right folks, the FAI (huge suspension of disbelief required here..) could actually humour this desperation and potentially be challenged by the next Shane Ferguson, angry at being denied his right on the basis of an agreement he never signed up to.


The forthcoming fixture between the two countries is an ideal opportunity for the associations to bring this matter to an amicable conclusion and, in the name of continued cordial relations, to publicly announce that a binding agreement on player selection has been reached. Such an agreement is in the interests of all concerned as it would strengthen and equalise the relationship between the FAI and IFA and end distractive speculation surrounding players.

If the IFA refuses to pursue this course of action, then it will have declared itself unfit to run football in Northern Ireland. In this event, its senior administrators must resign and be replaced by people who will serve the national team's best interests.You'd struggle between laughter and crying, you really would.

[Not Brazil]

How dare anyone decide on a "gentlemans agreement" to deny an irishman or woman to represent their nation. Bernard O Byrne or whoever else in the FAI allowed this down through the years should be ashamed of themselves.

You'd be well served to research the agreement reached in 1999.

[Not Brazil]

The english wont feel left out for the simple reason that a united kingdom team will be referred to as english.

With that, your credability sunk dramatically.

[Predator]

Absolutely agree. But (and I'm not necessarily saying I agree with this U-19 gentleman's agreement) how does declaring early or turning down the IFA at any age inhibit choice? Fair enough - it would be more inhibitive than for other dual nationals, who would likely get to pick and choose without not so much of a fuss.The suggestion that a dual-qualified player should be forced to choose so early at the behest of the IFA is simply outrageous - it would be quite divisive and telling ROI fans to pledge loyalty or féck off would surely threaten the 'all-inclusive' utopian image of the NI team.
If such a rule was applied universally by FIFA to all players, perhaps it would be somewhat more acceptable, but why would FIFA change the rules back?


But given the unique situation this is, I don't think it's unfair to call for players to be more aware of the obligations of accepting a call-up. The younger you go, the thornier that issue gets but certainly, with full internationals, it should be fairly obvious if a player wants to play for ROI or NI.What exactly are the obligations of accepting a call-up? It's a voluntary thing. The players volunteer their services to an association when accepting a call up and are not bound by anything other than FIFA's statutes.

I agree that by adulthood, it should be fairly clear where one sees one's international future, but in reality cases vary for individuals. Players like Duffy and Ferguson, despite being ROI fans and dreaming of playing for Ireland, were offered carrot-caps by Worthington as an incentive to stick around, suggesting that their career with NI was in some way guaranteed - which, if you think about it, is a bit crafty, self-interested and opportunistic ( :cool: ). 16 year olds, influenced by all-sorts, are being presented with the supposed guarantee of an international career with one association as opposed to uncertainty with the other.



The wording, as ever, absolutely dreadful - but the glimmer of the idea seems to be that a compromise should be possible, one that doesn't inhibit choice. Without going all hippy dippy on it (kumbaya) - isn't that something we'd all like to see?The wording is terrible. You get the impression that there is a perennial undertone of intolerance. What kind of compromise do you envisage?
The free choice is currently there for all and that's the way I'd like to see it remain. People born in NI should be free to exercise their identity by being free to play for whichever Irish team they want, provided their services are desired.

[DannyInvincible]

How dare anyone decide on a "gentlemans agreement" to deny an irishman or woman to represent their nation. Bernard O Byrne or whoever else in the FAI allowed this down through the years should be ashamed of themselves.

Boyce and O'Byrne agreed that northern-born Irish nationals could play for Ireland, so long as they volunteered rather than the FAI contacting them first.

[DannyInvincible]

Excuse my laziness, but did the CAS / Daniel Kearns judgment not refute the existence of any "gentlemen's agreement"? I thought it did but genuinely am not sure and not particularly fussed to investigate at nearly 11pm.

CAS could find no evidence of such an agreement. Neither could the IFA provide it. The FAI denied it existed and FIFA weren't aware of it. It would be fair to assume one didn't exist. What most people refer to as "the gentleman's agreement" is probably the dictat issued by FIFA in the early 1950s effective only upon the IFA preventing them from continuing with the practice of calling up southern-born players. There was never anything similar decreed by FIFA upon the FAI.

[ArdeeBhoy]

The free choice is currently there for all and that's the way I'd like to see it remain. People born in NI should be free to exercise their identity by being free to play for whichever Irish team they want, provided their services are desired.

And whenever they so desire.





Pedant alert;Presuming they are eligible.

[awec]

And whenever they so desire.





Pedant alert;Presuming they are eligible.

I've agreed with most things up until this. Total nonsense. And you know it too.

[liamoo11]

Boyce and O'Byrne agreed that northern-born Irish nationals could play for Ireland, so long as they volunteered rather than the FAI contacting them first.

So does that mean that no irishman in the north asked to play for ireland until Gibson did? Also i was not aware that the players such as george, wilson, dufffy, devine, gibson and kearns were contacted by the FAI ? How does anyone know they were contacted first?

[liamoo11]

With that, your credability sunk dramatically.

Of course they will be referred to as English. What do you think they will be called by the random football fan in say Brazil?Great Britons maybe or united kingdomers?

[liamoo11]

You'd be well served to research the agreement reached in 1999.

Im not aware of the agreement that appears to not have existed in the first place so maybe you could provide an official copy other than hearsay that didnt impress CAS either it appears.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Total nonsense. And you know it too.

Heh?

You think you can impose a limit on their own free will??
:rolleyes: Hmm, don't think that'd work somehow.

;)

[awec]

Heh?

You think you can impose a limit on their own free will??
:rolleyes: Hmm, don't think that'd work somehow.

;)

I don't know why I'm wasting my time, but "free will" is a myth for a football player. It doesn't exist.

Players are told when to arrive for training, what to eat, what to do, when to go home, when to sleep, what to do at home, when to drink, when to smoke, when to arrive for games, where to play, how to play, when to come off as a sub. Where does "free will" come into that?

In terms of internationals, players already abide by FIFA rules that limit what they can do (for example Ryan Giggs cannot exercise his "free will" tomorrow and decide he fancies playing for England).

"Free will" my jam roll. :)

The rules are already there to dictate when a player becomes tied to an association, all they are asking is that the rules are modified (i.e. not making any new rules) to lower the criteria for when a player is tied to an association (i.e. less than a full senior competitive cap).

[awec]

So does that mean that no irishman in the north asked to play for ireland until Gibson did? Also i was not aware that the players such as george, wilson, dufffy, devine, gibson and kearns were contacted by the FAI ? How does anyone know they were contacted first?
You don't really seem to be aware of anything, no harm to you.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Don't understand your last point, they're free to play (or 'switch') at any point during their career, if they're eligible, be they 15 or even 50.
Why would the rules ever be modified just to accommodate the usual paranoid control freakery??

The CAS's decision been done. Get over it and move on.

[DannyInvincible]

So does that mean that no irishman in the north asked to play for ireland until Gibson did? Also i was not aware that the players such as george, wilson, dufffy, devine, gibson and kearns were contacted by the FAI ? How does anyone know they were contacted first?

Plenty of northern-born players declared for us prior to Gibson's switch made the headlines. They just weren't as high profile as Gibson was. I assume the players you mention contacted the FAI first. Why do you assume otherwise? Actually, in the case of Shane Duffy, I understand that Sean McCaffrey and the FAI were reluctant to make any move until Duffy signalled his intentions to them. I suppose nobody can know for sure who contacts who first, although I assume a player could always spill the beans, as it were, if the FAI contacted him and he took some sort of issue with it. I think EG made allegations a while back that the FAI had contacted Chris Baird with an interest in having him declare for us a few years ago but I don't know much else about that and he hasn't posted in a while. I do miss that guy. ;)

[gastric]

Plenty of northern-born players declared for us prior to Gibson's switch made the headlines. They just weren't as high profile as Gibson was. I assume the players you mention contacted the FAI first. Why do you assume otherwise? Actually, in the case of Shane Duffy, I understand that Sean McCaffrey and the FAI were reluctant to make any move until Duffy signalled his intentions to them. I suppose nobody can know for sure who contacts who first, although I assume a player could always spill the beans, as it were, if the FAI contacted him and he took some sort of issue with it. I think EG made allegations a while back that the FAI had contacted Chris Baird with an interest in having him declare for us a few years ago but I don't know much else about that and he hasn't posted in a while. I do miss that guy. ;)

Good point Danny - where is he gone?

[Bungle]

I'd be delighted if Shane declared for us. He's clearly a lad with great potential. Been reading this thread over the last few weeks and I have to say I have alot of sympathy with Northern Ireland losing so many players to the South. Obviously, I would feel that Northern Irish Catholics or indeed Protestants have a right to play with the Republic and I'm delighted that they want to play for us, but I can empathise with the North losing a large bulk of talented lads, especially if they have used Northern Irish underage sides to get moves to England or put themselves in the shop window. For example lets just imagine a brilliant young player declaring for the North who is born in Dublin after playing with our underage teams. We wouldn't be very happy about it.

Hopefully some day there will be a united Irish football team and then football fans in both countries could regularly watch Ireland in major tournaments. The North will always produce very decent players and occasionally great players like Blanchflower and Best that could make a massive difference to the Republic. I don't buy this notion that it's a class thing that differentiates rugby and soccer and that the "rugby crowd" up North are different to the "football crowd". Boxing is the most working class sport of all and we have a United Ireland boxing team in the Olympics.

[French Toasht]

A blogger on the GAWA website has posted this blog entitled: "Player Eligibility - The Myths, The Facts, The Truth."

Unfortunately however, it reads like another misinformed and under-researched Belfast Telegraph article.

http://thegawa.wordpress.com/2011/05/20/player-eligibility-the-myths-the-facts-the-truth/

[Not Brazil]

Im not aware of the agreement that appears to not have existed in the first place so maybe you could provide an official copy other than hearsay that didnt impress CAS either it appears.

You're very confused. You should read this carefully:

DAILY MIRROR 26th JANUARY 1999 (Alex McCreevy)

THE FAI and the IFA believe they have strengthened a gentleman's agreement to kerb the free movement of players between the associations.

They have also agreed that from next season a new cross-border cup competition will be staged between the European entrants of the Irish league and the National League.

The IFA last week admitted it was concerned by the loss of several Northern Ireland born youngsters who were opting to play for the Republic.

After a meeting of soccer's Irish governing bodies in Belfast yesterday, IFA President Jim Boyce said he was "extremely happy," with the outcome of all items on the agenda.

"The issue of Northern Ireland's eligible players opting to play for the Republic was discussed at length with the FAI," said Boyce.

"It was also stressed that if a player made an approach himself, there was little the FAI could do unless FIFA was to change legislation. That, we accept. But at least we have agreed to notify one another should this happen.''

FAI chief executive Bernard O'Byrne claimed there was no bitterness on either side when the matter was discussed.

"There was a very positive atmosphere about this meeting and we look forward to sitting down with the IFA again within the next six months," said O'Byrne.

In a statement released last night, the FAI claimed the Association is the "first to recognise the extensive development programme of the IFA and congratulate them on their progress to date.

"The FAI acknowledge that this is a cross-community scheme and undertook to continue its policy of not approaching players born in Northern Ireland for the Republic of Ireland international teams.

"However, any player that opts to declare for the Republic of Ireland and notifies the FAI of this will be considered for selection."

[Not Brazil]

Hopefully some day there will be a united Irish football team and then football fans in both countries could regularly watch Ireland in major tournaments.

Anyone born in Ireland can play for the South - there is, therefore, no need to dispense with the representative teams of the IFA.

You wouldn't want to deny choice, would you?

Can you not respect the choice of players who don't want to play for the FAI teams?

[Not Brazil]

Unfortunately however, it reads like another misinformed and under-researched Belfast Telegraph article.

http://thegawa.wordpress.com/2011/05/20/player-eligibility-the-myths-the-facts-the-truth/

It has not been well documented however, that Northern Ireland can also choose players from other association territories if a player holds a British passport. The associations in question are of course the Scottish FA, Welsh FA, and The FA (English). The only obstacle to prevent this from happening is a ‘Gentleman’s Agreement’ which exists between the Home Nations. The agreement states that a player must have “engaged in a minimum of five years education under the age of 18 within the territory of the relevant association” or have a legitimate bloodline to the relevant territory up to and including grandparents.

This bit is balls.

The "Gentlemans Agreement" is, in fact, Article 16 of the FIFA Statutes. It is not a "Gentleman's Agreement".

[Not Brazil]

Of course they will be referred to as English. What do you think they will be called by the random football fan in say Brazil?Great Britons maybe or united kingdomers?

In such an eventuality, I imagine the team would be called the "United Kingdom", and the players referred to as "British".

Interestingly, people born in Northern Ireland, and their offspring, would be eligible to play for such a team, regardless of the constitutional position on this island.

[BonnieShels]

Hopefully some day there will be a united Irish football team and then football fans in both countries could regularly watch Ireland in major tournaments. The North will always produce very decent players and occasionally great players like Blanchflower and Best that could make a massive difference to the Republic. I don't buy this notion that it's a class thing that differentiates rugby and soccer and that the "rugby crowd" up North are different to the "football crowd". Boxing is the most working class sport of all and we have a United Ireland boxing team in the Olympics.

I think that there is ignorance as to how we came to have 2 associations in Ireland in the first place. There have been, up to now, no schism amongst all governing bodies except in soccer. It's a shame that it came to pass when it did but it happened and we need to forget about it and work with what we have. I would personally love to see a united team one day however that's in the future along with all the other unknowns like a lotto win that I could have next September or a Pan-Celtic Union with Scotland. :)

[Stuttgart88]

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Ferguson's decision being publicised is delayed until after the Carling Cup.

[Stuttgart88]

or a Pan-Celtic Union with Scotland. :)We're not even Celts according to "The Story of Ireland", Fergal (now very fat) Keane's history of Ireland on BBC.

[BonnieShels]

We're not even Celts according to "The Story of Ireland", Fergal (now very fat) Keane's history of Ireland on BBC.

Och aye... Sure the term Celt is so generic as to render itself meaningless.

[DannyInvincible]

I'd be delighted if Shane declared for us. He's clearly a lad with great potential. Been reading this thread over the last few weeks and I have to say I have alot of sympathy with Northern Ireland losing so many players to the South. Obviously, I would feel that Northern Irish Catholics or indeed Protestants have a right to play with the Republic and I'm delighted that they want to play for us, but I can empathise with the North losing a large bulk of talented lads, especially if they have used Northern Irish underage sides to get moves to England or put themselves in the shop window. For example lets just imagine a brilliant young player declaring for the North who is born in Dublin after playing with our underage teams. We wouldn't be very happy about it.

You're falling into the trap of viewing these individuals as the "property" of associations. You can only lose something if it was your property in the first place. Irish nationals born in the north are just as entitled to play for us as they are to play for the IFA so, technically, they're not losing them to us as neither association has more right to lay claim to them in the first place.

He wasn't born in Dublin, but Johnny Gorman played for us at youth level before being "poached" ( ;) ) by the IFA. Gorman's choice; no major fuss.


I don't buy this notion that it's a class thing that differentiates rugby and soccer and that the "rugby crowd" up North are different to the "football crowd". Boxing is the most working class sport of all and we have a United Ireland boxing team in the Olympics.

There are very different (what I'll call) spectator dynamics at play behind support in boxing and support in "tribal sports" such as rugby or football where the community's identity is channelled through the team who are primarily acting not just as representatives of the community or nation but as the nation itself. In football, for example, the Irish team will be referred to as "Ireland"; not as "Shay Given, Kevin Kilbane, Richard Dunne et al". The working class has always tended to be more partisan in its nationalist convictions than the middle class; part of the reason why, along with the existence of an Ulster rugby team (much like how Barcelona might be seen as representatives of the Catalan identity in Spain) and the fact that rugby fans have never known any different, the all-island international rugby team isn't really a major issue. Furthermore, NI football fans have continued to support the team of the original association on the island, even if it now just represents NI. They've become married to it as a representative of what is now "[their] wee country", as another poster pointed out. On the other hand, Irish rugby fans in the north have never had an opportunity to support a NI international rugby team.

Meanwhile, I would argue that boxing support is focused much more on the individual personality involved, in spite of it being a working class sport. Wayne McCullough's fans will not be shouting on Ireland when he's fighting; they'll be shouting on Wayne McCullough. If he ever does return to the ring, that is.