Shane Ferguson

[DannyInvincible]

A blogger on the GAWA website has posted this blog entitled: "Player Eligibility - The Myths, The Facts, The Truth."

Unfortunately however, it reads like another misinformed and under-researched Belfast Telegraph article.

http://thegawa.wordpress.com/2011/05/20/player-eligibility-the-myths-the-facts-the-truth/

I had hope it was going to be an interesting and somewhat unorthodox treatment of the issue when I read: "Many fans are using the term ‘sectarian poaching’ to describe the methods used by the Football Association of Ireland to entice players to represent the Republic of Ireland. In the Oxford English Dictionary the word ‘poaching’ is described as “stealing / thieving”."

It appeared that this notion might have been up for challenge, but then I read the very next bit: "In anyone’s language this is exactly what the Football Association of Ireland are doing with players eligible to the Irish Football Association. How can footballers who have been happy to represent Northern Ireland at various levels up to and including earning the honour of a full senior international cap, to then defect and play for the Republic after being approached by their representatives not be classed as theft?"

Ho hum... I dunno if I'd be bothered to go to town on it right now. :p

[ArdeeBhoy]

We're not even Celts according to "The Story of Ireland", Fergal (now very fat) Keane's history of Ireland on BBC.

Yeah, but that's the sort of revisionist sh*t, the likes of the DUP, the board's most rotund poster and every other clown will claim if it suits their agenda....
:rolleyes:


I"Many fans are using the term ‘sectarian poaching’ to describe the methods used by the Football Association of Ireland to entice players to represent the Republic of Ireland. In the Oxford English Dictionary the word ‘poaching’ is described as “stealing / thieving”."

It appeared that this notion might have been up for challenge, but then I read the very next bit: "In anyone’s language this is exactly what the Football Association of Ireland are doing with players eligible to the Irish Football Association. How can footballers who have been happy to represent Northern Ireland at various levels up to and including earning the honour of a full senior international cap, to then defect and play for the Republic after being approached by their representatives not be classed as theft?"

Ho hum... I dunno if I'd be bothered to go to town on it
Think you should and treat those fools with the contempt they rightly deserve.

[seanfhear]

It would be simpler for FIFA if there was just one team representing the Island of Ireland.

Listening to a bunch of mostly white Paddy christians pretending to be so very different from one another must be a massive pain in the a**e when it goes on an on and on and on and on !

[DannyInvincible]

Think you should and treat those fools with the contempt they rightly deserve.

I've had a bit of time so have decided I'll try and correct what I view to be some glaring errors in that blog piece. It's riddled throughout with assumptive accusations, downright misinformation and scaremongering nonsense.


I felt compelled to write about the continual threat to the very existence of our national side, as the Football Association of Ireland continue their active perusal of footballers eligible for Northern Ireland.

There is no threat to the existence of the IFA or its team by the FAI's "active perusal", if even you could call it that. Not that there's anything wrong or shameful in the FAI taking an interest in players eligible to play for us anyway, surely. A few northern-born players will declare for us every now and again, but it's been happening for years, before even the Good Friday Agreement - something of which the author appears possibly unaware given the fact he gives mention to only those who've declared for us after Gibson made the headlines - and, yet, the IFA still exists.

The likes of Ger Crossley, Gerard Doherty, Mark McKeever and Tony Shields - all northern-born - played for FAI teams between 1995 and 1997. There have been countless others to play for us between the signing of the GFA and the Gibson saga.

The IFA will always have players willing to line out for its sides. Clearly, even some players from nationalist backgrounds will be prepared to continue to do so; see Niall McGinn, Paddy McCourt, Sammy Clingan, et cetera. That is their choice, whether it is for career reasons or that they're not really bothered with playing under the Ulster Banner or whatever.


How can footballers who have been happy to represent Northern Ireland at various levels up to and including earning the honour of a full senior international cap, to then defect and play for the Republic after being approached by their representatives not be classed as theft?

Because theft implies the possession or ownership of something stolen in the first place. International football is a wholly voluntary endeavour. There are no contractual or legal obligations involved. Players do not ever become the property of associations. Players are called up voluntarily on a game-to-game basis, receive training and instruction prior to that game and "pay" the association back with their services on the pitch. They owe nothing further in return, if even that is owed anyway. Just because a player might have played for NI at youth level doesn't dictate that he owes them a career of service at senior level. If he declares for the FAI he will receive training and instruction for them prior to each game for them and, likewise, return the favour with his services on the pitch.

Furthermore, theft also implies a sense of illegality. Everything here is fully above board and in line with the rules on the matter. Animals that are poached have no choice as to their fate. On the other hand, players who declare for Ireland do so of their own volition.

At least the guy had sense to refute the accusation of sectarianism as complete nonsense.


The Irish Football Association has spent time, money and resources in training and developing its players, not to mention the travel costs involved. The source of the Irish Football Association’s funds come directly from the fans purchasing tickets and merchandise, so the Green and White Army have every right to be annoyed and upset about the situation.

Does the nationalist tax-payer not contribute to IFA resources? Anyhow these paying fans will also have benefited from being able to watch and take enjoyment from the contributions of the players concerned if something quantifiable in return is what they're after.


It has not been well documented however, that Northern Ireland can also choose players from other association territories if a player holds a British passport. The associations in question are of course the Scottish FA, Welsh FA, and The FA (English). The only obstacle to prevent this from happening is a ‘Gentleman’s Agreement’ which exists between the Home Nations.

Oops... Before going to the effort of writing this, it probably would have been a good idea to at least have had a brief scan through articles 15 to 18 of FIFA's regulations governing the application of their statutes (http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/generic/01/29/85/71/fifastatuten2010_e.pdf).


How could the supporter of any nation accept that a player who has earned a senior cap (albeit a non-tying friendly game) for one country be able to switch to another country to play his football?

A situation by no means absurd or unique to Adam Barton or Shane Ferguson. See the likes of Edgar Castillo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Castillo) or Jermaine Jones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jermaine_Jones), for example. Furthermore, FIFA have amended and worded their rules specifically so a friendly game will not tie a player down, thus enabling him to switch association until he plays in a competitive game.


FIFA eligibility criteria state that a person may only qualify for the territory of an association if they are entitled to a passport of the relevant association, have a bloodline connection to the territory, have schooled in the territory for at least five years before the age of 18 or have lived continuously in the associations territory for X years or more.

No idea where this has come from; a combination of confused, misinformed and incorrect nonsense.


The Republic of Ireland’s rules for becoming an Irish citizen allow for this to happen more freely than other European nations, as anyone born on the island of Ireland is entitled to an Irish Passport. This also extends to immediate family members if they have a parent or grandparent born on the island. I am not clued up on Russian nationality criteria but I cannot see what is stopping the Russian FA from granting passports to those footballers from former member states of the U.S.S.R. Perhaps the Irish Football Association should begin investigating this avenue as it would surely open a can of worms.

I'd bet this guy is just making a sloppy assumption and hasn't the slightest notion what the apparent citizenship rules of these "other European nations" he's supposedly referring to are. At least he admits he's not clued up on Russian nationality law specifically. :rolleyes:

Anyhow, it is the sovereign right of each nation to determine who its own nationals are. No international or European body has any issue whatsoever with Irish nationality law. To add to this, it even has the bilateral approval of the UK - a part of whose recognised territory over which it has extra-territorial effect - along with the NI electorate itself.


Look at Liam Boyce, another Northern Irish player that the Football Association of Ireland were apparently interested in. What did Nigel do? He made sure he was called up and capped in the 90th minute against Slovenia to tie the player to Northern Ireland. The same can be said for that of Johnny Gorman who was with the Republic youth set up for a while. Nigel saw huge potential and therefore capped the player as soon as possible, but the continual selection of the player after this is questionable.

I don't know if this is a case of unbelievable hypocrisy or if the guy suffers from an extreme lack of self-awareness. Either way, it's kind of unfortunate.


The Irish Football Association need to find out why these players are reluctant to represent Northern Ireland (although truth be told they are happy to until they are approached by the Football Association of Ireland).

A bit of evidence wouldn't go amiss when casually throwing accusations around. I know for a fact that Shane Duffy's switch was delayed by the FAI and Sean McCaffrey's refusal to act due to the sensitivities involved with calling up a northern-born player; this even in spite of the fact Duffy's father is Letterkenny-born. And given that the IFA breached what you might call a "gentleman's agreement" agreed by Jim Boyce and Bernard O'Byrne in 1999 by bringing the FAI to CAS over Daniel Kearns' switch, there's no moral reason as to why the FAI shouldn't approach eligible parties before they actively volunteer.


However, there is nothing wrong with flying the flag of Northern Ireland and nobody should be offended by it, after all it is the flag of the country and we are there to support Northern Ireland!

I wasn't aware the place had a flag. The IFA, however, choose to fly the unofficial and very-much-unionist Ulster Banner as their flag.

[DannyInvincible]

The Football Association of Ireland have an advantage in that they can ‘sell’ their national side to potential Northern Irish recruits with the promise of playing in a brand new (half empty!) stadium (Aviva) against the top sides in the world. There is no denying the fact that this promise will excite a young footballer as all Northern Ireland has to offer is a dilapidated old stadium (soon to be upgraded though) where we play the likes of Hungary and Norway on cold winter’s nights.

If this wasn't such a daft and strange cry for sympathy, I might take it remotely seriously. :rolleyes:

Both teams play other teams of a similar standard; from both world-class to minnow level. Is he implying that NI get a raw deal with the opponents they’re pitted against or something? :confused: The players' own sense of Irishness is enough motivation for them; never mind shiny new stadiums.


It would appear that the French FA are having similar issues with players switching allegiances to African countries after they have had money invested in their development by the French. The outcome is a proposed reduction of the intake quota to 30% of players with African origin being allowed into French academies. The French situation is slightly different however, in two ways. The first is that France can and regularly do select players to represent them who have their origins in Africa. For example, their 1998 Word Cup winning squad contained quite a few such as Desailly and Zidane etc., so the traffic is both ways.

Africa isn't a solitary nation, so it doesn't necessarily go "both ways" at all. Replace "France" with "NI" and "Africa" with "Europe" and the situation is no different in that the IFA also can and do select players from other associations' territories insofar as they are eligible under the criteria outlined in article 16 of FIFA's regulations on the application of their statutes.

Also, Zinedine Zidane was born not in Africa, but in Marseilles to Algerian parents. Where did this myth originate and why does it persist, good God?


The second reason is that the French have a player pool than Northern Ireland can only dream of. France will always have players no matter how many abscond.

Makes no difference in principle. NI will always have players no matter how many "abscond".


Northern Ireland on the other hand will either become a completely Protestant football team, which will of course lead to the usual accusations of sectarianism, bigotry etc., or worst case scenario the team will cease to exist at all.

Hyperbolic scaremongering on both counts.


A single ‘Ireland’ football side is the dream for many on this island none more so than the Football Association of Ireland who are trying their utmost to seize power from the Irish Football Association.

Have the FAI ever expressed this to be an official desire or motive of theirs? And what have the FAI ever done of late to try and seize power from the IFA? Sounds like someone has a persecution complex...


Should the Irish Football Association begin asking its youth players to sign contracts stating that if the player decides to switch alliances to the Football Association of Ireland then the Irish Football Association will be owed compensation? A risky path to take in regards to human rights etc. but it is certainly one to look at.

International football is a voluntary activity. Talk of contracts and compensation is complete fantasy. Having a player sign a contract would invoke a catch-22 situation anyway. Beyond the hurdle of having a minor become party to a contract, such a contract, whilst, for the sake of argument, maybe having legal standing in the state would have no standing whatsoever under FIFA's statutes. It would be in breach of them and FIFA would in no way condone it as they expressly endorse the idea that not even a friendly game ought tie a player to an association. If a player breached this contract, it would make no difference to FIFA as such a contract wouldn't be regulated by their statutes. However, if the IFA then proceeded to have the contract upheld in a court of law after what they considered a breach by the player concerned in order to deny this player his right to switch association under the statutes, FIFA would promptly threaten to boot the IFA out of international competition for what would amount to political interference.


There is another option of dialogue and creating a ‘Gentleman’s Agreement’ with the Football Association of Ireland in that they will agree to not call up Northern Irish players if they have already been capped at U19 level or above. Then again the Football association of Ireland have not abided to ‘Gentleman Agreement’s’ in the past!

More dubious accusations without a hint of evidence… The IFA were the ones who breached the only thing close to a "Gentleman's Agreement" between the two associations that I know of.


Jim Boyce now the FIFA Vice-President should be fighting our cause at the top table. I urge him to forget about trying to form a British Olympic football team and concentrate on the sole issue of player poaching. I believe the Amalgamation of Northern Ireland Supporters Clubs will be in contact with him shortly if they have not already done so. This will be a slow process though so patience is required.

Well, that would be kind of pointless considering we all know how pleased Boyce was with circumstances agreed with Bernard O'Byrne in 1999.


To sum up, I hope that I have dispelled some of the rumours and myths surrounding the Northern Ireland player eligibility debate and that I have given you a good insight into how the fans of Northern Ireland feel about the dispute and the potential avenues to explore to put an end to it.

Hmm...


In the interim the Irish Football Association should cut ALL ties with the Football Association of Ireland until they show some class and act like the 207 other FIFA members in respecting other associations’ jurisdictions.

Erm, they do behave like the 207 other associations in respecting other associations' jurisdictions and adhering to FIFA's rules. It's not as if the IFA haven't called up players born in the territory of an association other than their own, but that's a different matter entirely from respecting another association's jurisdiction. I wouldn't accuse the IFA of disrespecting the FA's territory, for example.

[The Fly]

You had a 'bit' of time?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Danny, brilliant post that first one, POTY so far for me.
And the second up to the usual standard.

Top stuff.

Oh and what The Fly said!

[DannyInvincible]

I've posted below the blog piece a pretty much identical version of what I've written above, although it's now awaiting moderation, so I guess I'll have to wait and see if it appears.

[Gather round]

I wasn't aware the place had a flag. The IFA, however, choose to fly the unofficial and very-much-unionist Ulster Banner as their flag

Now you're just being silly. Good post otherwise ;)


Also, Zinedine Zidane was born not in Africa, but in Marseilles to Algerian parents. Where did this myth originate and why does it persist, good God?

It's hardly a myth, more just a lazy shorthand. The writer (like plenty of others) doesn't bother to distinguish between first and second generation French-born. Or possibly just ignores what he doesn't like/ recognise?


It would be simpler for FIFA if there was just one team representing the Island of Ireland

Aye, like it would be simpler if there was just one team representing BeNeLux/ Scandinavia/ ex-Yugoslavia etc. etc. So actually it wouldn't, eh?

[DannyInvincible]

Now you're just being silly. Good post otherwise ;)

When I saw you'd responded, I hadn't expected the flag part to be the only thing with which you'd take issue, never mind you passing an overall compliment. :p

Why do you say I'm being silly though? Fair enough, maybe it would have been more technically correct to say that NI has no unique flag of its own considering its institutions will use the Union Flag, but it is true that the flag the IFA use - the Ulster Banner - is associated with unionism/loyalism and doesn't possess any official status whatsoever, is it not? To claim it's in some way neutral is a misnomer surely?


It's hardly a myth, more just a lazy shorthand. The writer (like plenty of others) doesn't bother to distinguish between first and second generation French-born. Or possibly just ignores what he doesn't like/ recognise?

I took the writer to be distinguishing between French-born players of African descent who go on to play for African countries and African-born players who go on to play for France though. In the preceding few sentences, he was attempting to make a point about players apparently going "both ways" when it comes to the FFF and African associations. It seemed he was implying that Zidane was African-born as he appeared to be writing the example of him winning the World Cup with France in 1998 as a "vice versa" example to a French-born player with African roots switching allegiance to play for an African association, but maybe I misinterpreted what was written. Not that it's really that big of a deal. I have heard people haughtily claim Zidane was born in Algeria before, mind, when making some point about the diversity of the French national team and it kind of irks me by this point.

[Gather round]

When I saw you'd responded, I hadn't expected the flag part to be the only thing with which you'd take issue, never mind you passing an overall compliment. :p

My pleasure. I suppose I could have repeated my mantra about wanting the IFA to keep pressing the FAI not to pick anyone already capped for NI adult teams. Anyway, why wouldn't I broadly agree? Many of our fans, including that blogger, are clearly nuts.


Why do you say I'm being silly though?

Any fan of international football from Andorra to Zagreb knows that "the place" (NI) "has a flag". Because they see it when our team plays their team. Regardless of their interest in/ knowledge of the wider political issues in Ireland, they'd likely be a bit puzzled at someone from Derry failing to recognise it ;)


it is true that the flag the IFA use - the Ulster Banner - is associated with unionism

You associate it with unionism; I associate it with Northern Ireland generally, not just the football team. Our notional fan in Zagreb will likely agree with me, because he probably ain't that bothered about our local difficulties. So your 'truth' is hardly universal, is it?


doesn't possess any official status whatsoever, [does] it not?

It does in international football. Non-sovereign countries playing there is a separate issue.


To claim it's in some way neutral is a misnomer surely?

I didn't. I recognise nationalists don't like it. I don't like it featuring a crown myself, for what it's worth. You can't please everyone.


when making some point about the diversity of the French national team and it kind of irks me by this point

Aside from everything else, I certainly wouldn't want to associate with anything the French FA are up to at present. Their attitude looks openly and crassly racist and I'm amazed Blanc hasn't felt the need to resign.

[Mr_Parker]

My pleasure. I suppose I could have repeated my mantra about wanting the IFA to keep pressing the FAI not to pick anyone already capped for NI adult teams. Anyway, why wouldn't I broadly agree? Many of our fans, including that blogger, are clearly nuts.



Any fan of international football from Andorra to Zagreb knows that "the place" (NI) "has a flag". Because they see it when our team plays their team. Regardless of their interest in/ knowledge of the wider political issues in Ireland, they'd likely be a bit puzzled at someone from Derry failing to recognise it ;)



You associate it with unionism; I associate it with Northern Ireland generally, not just the football team. Our notional fan in Zagreb will likely agree with me, because he probably ain't that bothered about our local difficulties. So your 'truth' is hardly universal, is it?



It does in international football. Non-sovereign countries playing there is a separate issue.



I didn't. I recognise nationalists don't like it. I don't like it featuring a crown myself, for what it's worth. You can't please everyone.



Aside from everything else, I certainly wouldn't want to associate with anything the French FA are up to at present. Their attitude looks openly and crassly racist and I'm amazed Blanc hasn't felt the need to resign.

Why do the IFA continue to use a flag that has lost its official political status and is divisive, when their quest is to attract people to play for them? Surely if they were committed to change to help improve things they would have identified this as an area of concern?

[DannyInvincible]

Danny, brilliant post that first one, POTY so far for me.
And the second up to the usual standard.

Top stuff.

Oh and what The Fly said!

You're very flattering, although I suspect my best and most efficient course of action would be to write some sort of blog entry myself on everything I know about the eligibility issue and link back to it when needs be, ha. In saying that, the FIFA statutes and the Kearns judgment - which pretty much sums up the whole issue very well - are freely and easily accessible through a simple Google search. How such ignorance and misinformation prevails for people who have an obvious interest in the issue is difficult to comprehend in light of this.

[French Toasht]

I've posted below the blog piece a pretty much identical version of what I've written above, although it's now awaiting moderation, so I guess I'll have to wait and see if it appears.

I posted a rational and informed response on his page, two days ago, and low and behold ... It never appeared. Never let the truth get in the way of a good story though eh?

[Sullivinho]

Top class post/s there Danny. I hope the writer of the original blog piece doesn't leave themselves down by suppressing it.

[DannyInvincible]

You associate it with unionism; I associate it with Northern Ireland generally, not just the football team. Our notional fan in Zagreb will likely agree with me, because he probably ain't that bothered about our local difficulties. So your 'truth' is hardly universal, is it?

I suppose, but then it's in the interests of the IFA to be concerned about local difficulties. Why they should be concerned that a flag-change might confuse someone in Zagreb or whatever, I wouldn't know.


I didn't. I recognise nationalists don't like it. I don't like it featuring a crown myself, for what it's worth. You can't please everyone.

I was referring to the blogger really when he stated there was no reason to find the flag offensive.

In saying all that, and to be honest, I do think of the flag/anthem issue can tend to be somewhat of a red herring. No matter what flag or anthem the IFA were to have representing them, I still think that the fundamental issue will remain - the British constitutional status of NI and the fact that the IFA are a British association - which the IFA can't really do anything about other than accept a situation that will inevitably lead many players from a nationalist background who wish to express their Irish identity to do so by channelling it through playing for the FAI. I don't know if a flag or song amendment can really change that. I suppose a change would do no harm considering all the talk of promoting the ideal of a cross-community team and all that - it might even endear some more "moderate" nationalists to the side - but, as I say, I think it's ultimately a red herring.


I posted a rational and informed response on his page, two days ago, and low and behold ... It never appeared. Never let the truth get in the way of a good story though eh?

That's disappointing considering his own words: "It is always good to hear the other side of the story."

[ArdeeBhoy]

Aye, like it would be simpler if there was just one team representing BeNeLux/ Scandinavia/ ex-Yugoslavia etc.
Except they have separate languages and were never all part of the same country.
So not remotely the same.


I suppose I could have repeated my mantra about wanting the IFA to keep pressing the FAI not to pick anyone already capped for NI adult teams. Anyway, why wouldn't I broadly agree? Many of our fans, including that blogger, are clearly nuts.

Except that it disregards the CAS ruling. And am bemused to see you offering up your good self as the voice of, er, 'sanity'....
;)


Any fan of international football from Andorra to Zagreb knows that "the place" (NI) "has a flag". Because they see it when our team plays their team. Regardless of their interest in/ knowledge of the wider political issues in Ireland

You associate it with unionism; I associate it with Northern Ireland generally, not just the football team. Our notional fan in Zagreb will likely agree with me, because he probably ain't that bothered about our local difficulties.

Except most people I've met in Europe are bemused as to why there are even two* 'teams' on the island....
'Regardless of their interest in/ knowledge of the wider political situation in Ireland'

And would barely recognize our flag, let alone one of some sub-province.

Often they seem to be embarrassed of such a situation*, so there's hardly widespread 'acceptance' of the situation.


I recognise nationalists don't like it. I don't like it featuring a crown myself, for what it's worth. You can't please everyone.

Given the new status alluded to, why not lead a campaign for a new flag then?? :rolleyes:

Remember the OWB campaign on this a few years back;such a suggestion, along with the anthem and all the other old chestnuts, went down like the usual lead balloon with the majority.

[DannyInvincible]

Anyway, talking football for a change, Ferguson is expected to start on the left wing for Newcastle at home to West Brom today. At least, the Guardian have him in their probable starting line-up anyway: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/may/20/squad-sheets-newcastle-west-bromwich-albion

[DannyInvincible]

Indeed, Ferguson starting today.

[French Toasht]

Except they have separate languages and were never all part of the same country.
So not remotely the same.


Hate to break it to you mate. Norway used to be a part of Sweden and the whole ownership issue in Scandinavia changed hands several times.

I don't want to see a unified Irish team, because to be totally honest it would be neither democratic or worth the hassle it would bring. The status quo ensures that the FAI can pick players from the 32 counties of Ireland, importantly players who WANT TO REPRESENT IRELAND. I respect the wishes of unionist fans who don't support the idea of a united Ireland team and in fact, any such team would personify division not cohesion.

All I have ever looked for as a fan is that the terms of the Good Friday Agreement be respected and that self determination exists. We have that now, even if the IFA are doing their best to inhibit the rights of Irish men to represent their country.

[awec]

Hate to break it to you mate. Norway used to be a part of Sweden and the whole ownership issue in Scandinavia changed hands several times.

I don't want to see a unified Irish team, because to be totally honest it would be neither democratic or worth the hassle it would bring. The status quo ensures that the FAI can pick players from the 32 counties of Ireland, importantly players who WANT TO REPRESENT IRELAND. I respect the wishes of unionist fans who don't support the idea of a united Ireland team and in fact, any such team would personify division not cohesion.

All I have ever looked for as a fan is that the terms of the Good Friday Agreement be respected and that self determination exists. We have that now, even if the IFA are doing their best to inhibit the rights of Irish men to represent their country.

Actually, point of order, the IFA are doing pretty much nothing.

And NI fans don't want to inhibit anyone's rights. We (well I can't speak for everyone but you get my point) have no issue with northern born players wanting to play for the ROI. What our issue is is northern born players playing for Northern Ireland at youth level and then deciding they want to jump ship just before they break into the senior team. If you don't want to play for us, don't waste our time and go and play for the ROI youth teams.

The ideal scenario for me is that if you play for any Northern Ireland team in any fixture over the age of 18 you are making yourself ineligible to declare for anyone else. If you decide at 17 you want to play for the ROI, go on ahead.

[French Toasht]

The ideal scenario for me is that if you play for any Northern Ireland team in any fixture over the age of 18 you are making yourself ineligible to declare for anyone else. If you decide at 17 you want to play for the ROI, go on ahead.

Genuine question, but would such a move not be more detrimental to NI in the long run? For example looking at the map of where NI internationals actually originate from, it's clear to me that NI stand to lose lots more out of such a ruling as NI rely on a lot of English born players who have previously received caps for England under age teams, Lee Camp and Oliver Norwood for example. Also several players have been capped at under age by Ireland only to return to NI.

I think this past week, the boycott and the online petition have been an absolute disaster in terms of PR for the NI fans and has played this into the FAI's hands. The wording of the petition, the U-19 coach Steve Beaglehole declaring this is a "battle" and admitting that the capping of 17 year old Johnny Gorman in the 90th minute against Slovenia when "he wasn't ready but is now tied up" and Winkie Rea appointed as spokesman for the cause only achievement has been to alienate young nationalists further. The responses to the online petition of many Ireland fans may be flippant and whimsical but in truth it is a measure of the ill feeling such a militant stance has created. I feel had a poll been taken of the allegiances of nationalist kids prior to the boycott and petition, a much higher proportion would have opted for representing NI than would opt to represent them today.

Education and cross community projects are the only way the IFA will reverse the exodus. Hardline stances will achieve nothing and fire will be met with fire.

[awec]

Genuine question, but would such a move not be more detrimental to NI in the long run? For example looking at the map of where NI internationals actually originate from, it's clear to me that NI stand to lose lots more out of such a ruling as NI rely on a lot of English born players who have previously received caps for England under age teams, Lee Camp and Oliver Norwood for example. Also several players have been capped at under age by Ireland only to return to NI.

I think this past week, the boycott and the online petition have been an absolute disaster in terms of PR for the NI fans and has played this into the FAI's hands. The wording of the petition, the U-19 coach Steve Beaglehole declaring this is a "battle" and admitting that the capping of 17 year old Johnny Gorman in the 90th minute against Slovenia when "he wasn't ready but is now tied up" and Winkie Rea appointed as spokesman for the cause only achievement has been to alienate young nationalists further. The responses to the online petition of many Ireland fans may be flippant and whimsical but in truth it is a measure of the ill feeling such a militant stance has created. I feel had a poll been taken of the allegiances of nationalist kids prior to the boycott and petition, a much higher proportion would have opted for representing NI than would opt to represent them today.

Education and cross community projects are the only way the IFA will reverse the exodus. Hardline stances will achieve nothing and fire will be met with fire.

Yes we would also stand to lose out unfortunately.

I don't see why you keep bringing that spokesperson into this. He is an elected representative of one supporters club, it's up to them who they elect and nothing to do with the NI support as a whole.

[Mr_Parker]

Actually, point of order, the IFA are doing pretty much nothing.

And NI fans don't want to inhibit anyone's rights. We (well I can't speak for everyone but you get my point) have no issue with northern born players wanting to play for the ROI. What our issue is is northern born players playing for Northern Ireland at youth level and then deciding they want to jump ship just before they break into the senior team. If you don't want to play for us, don't waste our time and go and play for the ROI youth teams.

The ideal scenario for me is that if you play for any Northern Ireland team in any fixture over the age of 18 you are making yourself ineligible to declare for anyone else. If you decide at 17 you want to play for the ROI, go on ahead.


That may be your ideal solution, but sorry to say practicalities get in the way ie the "age of majority."

[ArdeeBhoy]

Not to mention FIFA rules, The CAS etc etc......

[ArdeeBhoy]

Norway used to be a part of Sweden and the whole ownership issue in Scandinavia changed hands several times.

Well yes, but Norway, with its own distinct language and history, has been fully independent for more than a century.
Even longer than some place called Ireland....

[DannyInvincible]

Genuine question, but would such a move not be more detrimental to NI in the long run? For example looking at the map of where NI internationals actually originate from, it's clear to me that NI stand to lose lots more out of such a ruling as NI rely on a lot of English born players who have previously received caps for England under age teams, Lee Camp and Oliver Norwood for example. Also several players have been capped at under age by Ireland only to return to NI.

I think this past week, the boycott and the online petition have been an absolute disaster in terms of PR for the NI fans and has played this into the FAI's hands. The wording of the petition, the U-19 coach Steve Beaglehole declaring this is a "battle" and admitting that the capping of 17 year old Johnny Gorman in the 90th minute against Slovenia when "he wasn't ready but is now tied up" and Winkie Rea appointed as spokesman for the cause only achievement has been to alienate young nationalists further. The responses to the online petition of many Ireland fans may be flippant and whimsical but in truth it is a measure of the ill feeling such a militant stance has created. I feel had a poll been taken of the allegiances of nationalist kids prior to the boycott and petition, a much higher proportion would have opted for representing NI than would opt to represent them today.

Education and cross community projects are the only way the IFA will reverse the exodus. Hardline stances will achieve nothing and fire will be met with fire.

I do think that by making such a huge issue out of it, the IFA shot themselves in the foot. Barely anyone was even aware of northern-born players declaring for Ireland prior to the IFA kicking up a fuss over Gibson's switch. Most people still haven't a clue that Gibson wasn't the first northern-born player to opt for us even now. Not only did it have the unintended consequence of further publicising an option open to northern-born footballers, it also has served to make the IFA appear disconnected from the nationalist community - even hostile to its interests and expressions of national identity - thereby further alienating many and fomenting disapproval within a community that would, in many circles, want little to do with it anyway. The IFA allowed themselves to become characterised as intransigent, uncompromising and stubborn unionists dead set on hampering young nationalist footballers' dreams of playing for their country. They still fail to acknowledge that there is a significant population living within the borders of NI that don't really consider it to be their country, but rather consider Ireland to be their country. I'm sure some would have no qualms in throwing accusations of sectarianism at the IFA over the whole thing such is the annoyance it has caused.

Personally speaking, my own feelings towards the IFA have gone from somewhat indifferent to cold as a result of how they've conducted matters. Previously, they had little to do with me and I had little interest in their affairs; next they were effectively telling the community of which I view myself a part that channelling expressions of Irish identity through the FAI and Ireland team wasn't acceptable; essentially implying that we were traitors for supporting/playing for "another country". And worse, they then had me posting long-winded and strongly-worded denunciations of their antics on Foot.ie long into the wee small hours of the night! ;)

[French Toasht]

I don't see why you keep bringing that spokesperson into this. He is an elected representative of one supporters club, it's up to them who they elect and nothing to do with the NI support as a whole.


Yes and I agree with you, they are entitled to appoint who they wish as spokesperson. But do you not think his particular selection is a bit ill judged? If you look at this from the point of view of an impartial observer, here is a man with a seriously dodgy past taking a human rights case. It really does not lend them too much credibility from a PR point of view.
Now perhaps you will state that certain assembly members may not have a whiter than white past themselves, but does that really lend legitimacy to the view that he should be a good spokesman for the cause?


Well yes, but Norway, with its own distinct language and history, has been fully independent for more than a century.
Even longer than some place called Ireland....


Ok sorry to be pedantic and going off on a tangent, but having lived in Denmark for a number of years, I can tell you that all the Scandinavian languages (bar Finnish) originate from the one family and in essence are only just regional dialects of the original with an element of local colloquialism. This is so much so that only in the relative recent past Norway tried to create their own new Norwegian language to strengthen feelings of patriotism among its people. In essence the point this makes is to suggest that the re-unification of an All Ireland team is not all that dissimilar to suggesting a united Scandinavian team. I think Irish people effectively have a united Irish team currently and do you not envisage massive problems down the line if there was only one team on the island?

[Gather round]

Why do the IFA continue to use a flag that has lost its official political status and is divisive, when their quest is to attract people to play for them? Surely if they were committed to change to help improve things they would have identified this as an area of concern?

They continue to use it largely because there has never been a widely accepted replacement for it, and thus no alternative that isn't divisive.


In saying all that, and to be honest, I do think of the flag/anthem issue can tend to be somewhat of a red herring...I suppose a change would do no harm considering all the talk of promoting the ideal of a cross-community team and all that - it might even endear some more "moderate" nationalists to the side - but, as I say, I think it's ultimately a red herring

Broadly agreed the issue is a red herring. A change to the NI team's symbols that didn't have close to 100% support from its existing fans would obviously do 'harm' in the sense that it would p*ss a lot of them off...


Except most people I've met in Europe are bemused as to why there are even two* 'teams' on the island...

Strangely enough, most people I've met on similar travels aren't at all bemused. They accept that there is variety of different types of political organisation across the continent, and just get on with welcoming the other teams when they arrive to play.


Genuine question, but would such a move not be more detrimental to NI in the long run? For example looking at the map of where NI internationals actually originate from, it's clear to me that NI stand to lose lots more out of such a ruling as NI rely on a lot of English born players who have previously received caps for England under age teams

Possibly, although that map is a bit misleading. Of the 24 players who represented NI in WC 2010 qualifying, only two (Maik Taylor and Martin Paterson) grew up outside.You can add Camp and Little Lord Gormanleroy to the list since.

Personally, I'd prefer us to pick players from NI and not rely on those from England qualifying through a granny- otherwise it makes international football look a bit odd (and yes, I know non-sovereign countries playing internationals is a tad bizarre too... )


Yes and I agree with you, they are entitled to appoint who they wish as spokesperson. But do you not think his particular selection is a bit ill judged? If you look at this from the point of view of an impartial observer, here is a man with a seriously dodgy past taking a human rights case. It really does not lend them too much credibility from a PR point of view. Now perhaps you will state that certain assembly members may not have a whiter than white past themselves, but does that really lend legitimacy to the view that he should be a good spokesman for the cause?

I know Winkie Rea only by sight and have no idea how good or bad an advocate he is for anything, or how subtle his PR skills. But in practice it's perfectly possible to overcome a paramilitary/ criminal background in such a role if you are articulate and media trained.

[DannyInvincible]

Yes and I agree with you, they are entitled to appoint who they wish as spokesperson. But do you not think his particular selection is a bit ill judged? If you look at this from the point of view of an impartial observer, here is a man with a seriously dodgy past taking a human rights case. It really does not lend them too much credibility from a PR point of view.
Now perhaps you will state that certain assembly members may not have a whiter than white past themselves, but does that really lend legitimacy to the view that he should be a good spokesman for the cause?

To be honest, I don't really have any major issue with the morality of this Winkie Rea chap being a spokesman for a supporters club. Sure, it is likely to alienate nationalists, but whatever his past, he's served his time in prison and was issued with the same reprieve accorded to others from both communities in the north who'd been imprisoned as a result of their actions during the Troubles. He might not be all that tasteful a character but then unionists share power with individuals in Stormont whose pasts they probably view in a similarly dim light to how a nationalist or republican might view Winkie Rea's. Or is it the practicality and prudence of a person such as he holding the position he does and the image it might convey to nationalists to whom the IFA are desperately trying to reach out that you're questioning? If that's the case, I suppose I'd agree there is potential there to alienate nationalists with such a figure.

Edit: Sorry, I see now that that's kind of what you are saying, although I think GR makes a fair enough point. If Rea can perform his role competently and in what you might call a politically-neutral manner or whatever, then there's really no reason why he should be prevented from acting as spokesman of a supporters club.

[Not Brazil]

and Winkie Rea appointed as spokesman for the cause

Winkie Rea's cause, and that of the one Supporters Club he speaks on behalf of, is against the IFA - in case you didn't pick up on that.

[Not Brazil]

Yes and I agree with you, they are entitled to appoint who they wish as spokesperson. But do you not think his particular selection is a bit ill judged? If you look at this from the point of view of an impartial observer, here is a man with a seriously dodgy past taking a human rights case. It really does not lend them too much credibility from a PR point of view.
Now perhaps you will state that certain assembly members may not have a whiter than white past themselves, but does that really lend legitimacy to the view that he should be a good spokesman for the cause?


The Officers and Members of the 1st Shankill Northern Ireland Supporters Club will not give two flying ones what you or anyone else thinks about their choice of Spokesman.

Rather than be perturbed by your opinion, I expect they'll get on with the excellent community relations work they do, without seeking fame or praise.

In addition, they have regularly provided a warm welcome to football supporters from the ROI in their premises.

[ArdeeBhoy]

In essence the point this makes is to suggest that the re-unification of an All Ireland team is not all that dissimilar to suggesting a united Scandinavian team. I think Irish people effectively have a united Irish team currently and do you not envisage massive problems down the line if there was only one team on the island?

Take your general point about Scandinavia and the crossover of language, but ultimately that's up to them.
And the status of the Ireland team as mentioned, but don't see the massive problems either, you suggest. At least, not longer-term.



Strangely enough, most people I've met on similar travels aren't at all bemused. They accept that there is variety of different types of political organisation across the continent, and just get on with welcoming the other teams when they arrive to play.


Ha ha, we must move in different, er, circles. :rolleyes:
I'm sure we can find more than a few people who are bemused....
;)

[French Toasht]

I think I am being misunderstood on the point about Winkie. I'm not so much stating it will be a key factor in nationalists choosing Ireland or anything, but I'm just saying that if we wanted our EU/IMF bail out re-negotiated, I don't think it would be advisable to send Sean Fitzpatrick to do our bidding.

[awec]

The Officers and Members of the 1st Shankill Northern Ireland Supporters Club will not give two flying ones what you or anyone else thinks about their choice of Spokesman.

Rather than be perturbed by your opinion, I expect they'll get on with the excellent community relations work they do, without seeking fame or praise.

In addition, they have regularly provided a warm welcome to football supporters from the ROI in their premises.

Well said! A great club.

They host the guests that Linfield bring in the Setanta cup if I'm not mistaken?

[gustavo]

Please keep all "eligibility" discussion here (http://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligibility-Rules-Okay). This thread should be only related to Shane Ferguson and his form.

[BonnieShels]

So the "Northern Irishman" has signed a new 5 year deal...


Newcastle boss Alan Pardew today tied up the future of one of his most promising prospects as Shane Ferguson signed a new five-year contract.Just days after it was revealed that key midfielder Joey Barton will not be offered an extension, the 19-year-old Northern Irishman has committed his future to the club.
Ferguson, who is thought to be keen to declare for the Republic of Ireland, said: “I’m really happy. I’ve enjoyed this season so much and the new contract has just been the icing on the cake for me.“It’s a great thrill to play for the club and the support I have had from the fans since making my debut really means a lot so I’m just delighted to be with Newcastle for the next five years now."

http://www.irishtimes.com/sports/soccer/2011/0527/1224297906011.html

[Sullivinho]

North-western Englishman Joey Barton will be disappointed with his lack of a new contract..

[ifk101]

“I haven’t made any decision yet and some of the stuff Nigel Worthington has come out and said wasn’t true. That has really annoyed me. He said something about me not talking and ignoring calls from him, and that’s not true either.

“I spoke to him and told him I wanted to wait until the summer before making any decision. I want to have a good think about things and then I’ll make my decision.

“I told him that very early, long before I was even home for the summer break, and then he’s come out and said all this stuff. He’s probably made me out to look bad,” he said.

...........

“It’s just a hard decision and I’ll have to sit and think about it over the summer. People are jumping the gun and thinking I’ve done it already, but nobody has heard me say anything about this.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2011/0531/1224298146697.html

[The Fly]

Cheers Nigel!

[Charlie Darwin]

Wow. Keystone Cops.

[Mr A]

Methinks agent Worthington needs to be careful or he'll blow his cover.

[SkStu]

all we need now is Trappatoni to get wind of this and call him out on his lack of commitment to international football..... ;)

[gastric]

all we need now is Trappatoni to get wind of this and call him out on his lack of commitment to international football..... ;)

Or we could go one step further and get Don Givens to liaise with Ferguson.

[DannyInvincible]

Worthington may well have made Ferguson's decision for him. That Irish Times piece by Simon Collins seems to be an abridged version of an article from the Derry Journal (http://www.derryjournal.com/sport/magpie_ferguson_undecided_on_international_future_ 1_2727675).

I thought this paragraph a bit odd though, considering the Journal's target audience:


Incredibly Ferguson is the third Derry lad plying his trade in the Premiership to find himself at the centre of the controversy but there is still some hope he will decline the invitation from the Republic of Ireland and refuse to switch his allegiance from the North.

I find it difficult to imagine that there'd be too many in Derry outside of the small minority of NI fans hoping Ferguson will stick with the IFA.

[BonnieShels]

That's a really strange article from the Journal.

[Bottle of Tonic]

You could read that as 'hope (within the IFA) that he will refuse to switch........'

[BonnieShels]

You could read that as 'hope (within the IFA) that he will refuse to switch........'

I did and I was gonna say that earlier. However its other aspects of the article that make me sceptical that that qualifier of "within the IFA" was ever considered.
It all reads weirdly.

[cufc champions]

SHANE FERGUSON refuses to be rushed into declaring his international allegiance and has rejected comments made by Northern Ireland manager Nigel Worthington that the 19-year-old Newcastle United left-sided player has ignored his calls.
The Derry-born player is the latest teenager to become embroiled in an international tug-of-war between the IFA and FAI over recent weeks, and despite reports suggesting he was bound to declare for the Republic, Ferguson yesterday insisted he would take his time before making a decision.
Worthington appeared to have given up on the possibility of keeping the Newcastle starlet in the North, claiming he had made several failed attempts to contact the player.
“The situation with Shane is, I and two other officials from the Irish FA have tried to make contact,” he said. “We have left voicemail messages, text messages and made random calls to Shane. There has been no reply.”
However, Ferguson described those claims as “untrue”, and said he had informed the Northern Ireland boss he wanted time to mull over his decision before pledging his future to either jurisdiction.
Ferguson is concerned Worthington’s public comments would damage his future relationship with Northern supporters, should he decide to opt to represent the North.
Ferguson, who can play on the left side of midfield or in the converted defensive role adopted at Newcastle, suggested that the IFA were “jumping the gun” before he had made a final decision.
“I haven’t made any decision yet and some of the stuff Nigel Worthington has come out and said wasn’t true. That has really annoyed me. He said something about me not talking and ignoring calls from him, and that’s not true either.
“I spoke to him and told him I wanted to wait until the summer before making any decision. I want to have a good think about things and then I’ll make my decision.
“I told him that very early, long before I was even home for the summer break, and then he’s come out and said all this stuff. He’s probably made me out to look bad,” he said.
Whether Worthington’s comments have forced the hand of the teenager remains to be seen, but Ferguson is adamant he will take everything into consideration during his break before making his final decision.
“It’s just a hard decision and I’ll have to sit and think about it over the summer. People are jumping the gun and thinking I’ve done it already, but nobody has heard me say anything about this.”
The eligibility row has soured the relationship between the IFA and FAI following high-profile cases involving other Derry-born players Darron Gibson and Shane Duffy in recent years.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2011/0531/1224298146697.html

[geysir]

'The Derry-born player is the latest teenager to become embroiled in an international tug-of-war between the IFA and FAI over recent weeks'

Gross inaccurate description there. We don't need to tug, we just have that natural magnetic attraction.