Shane Ferguson

[ArdeeBhoy]

A trickle?

Though more could be good....

[DannyInvincible]

A "trickle" appears to be the term du jour, although no harm in a few more, certainly. ;)


d) It also doesn't take into account all the immigrants who have children who will dillute the ones for a United Ireland.

For what it's worth, Derry-born Marc Mukendi, son of former Derry City player José Mukendi, who was also an international player for Zaire (now the Democratic Republic of Congo), the country of his birth, favoured playing for Ireland despite being also eligible to play for Northern Ireland (and, the Democratic Republic of Congo, presumably). He represented us at under-18 and under-19 level, as far as I know.

In fact, when Northern Ireland were playing Slovenia in Belfast the other week, a lad I know from Derry whose father comes from either Nigeria or Senegal (not 100 per cent certain which) and who is now living on Tate's Avenue near Windsor Park, evidently getting somewhat annoyed by chanting Northern Ireland fans walking past his door on their way to the ground, wrote the following as his Facebook status:


‎"Were not Brazill, we're Northern Ireland!"
Jesus f**k up you bunch of ignorant tw*ts...enjoy watching your wee made up country get beat

Admittedly not the most amicable of comments, but I suppose it provides a bit of an insight into his convictions. He also happens to support Ireland when it comes to international loyalties.

Fairly anecdotal stuff, I know, but my point is this; the likelihood is that the political or socio-cultural outlook of the sons and daughters of immigrants will be influenced somewhat by the communities and circumstances within which they are raised. Maybe there'll be others with unionist sympathies for whatever reason and, of course, others who couldn't care less, but it doesn't necessarily follow that any national aspiration for unity throughout Ireland will become "diluted" due to immigration.

Either way, the Irish constitution recognises that "a united Ireland shall be brought about only by peaceful means with the consent of a majority of the people, democratically expressed, in both jurisdictions in the island ... in all the diversity of their identities and traditions". That certainly doesn't confine voting in any future referendum on the matter to just Catholics, Protestants, nationalists, unionists or whoever it is you're suggesting the constitution refers to the exclusion of "immigrants who will have children", but sounds very much like it encompasses the considerations of immigrants and their families to me, just so long as they are registered and have a right to vote in said referendum, of course.

[Not Brazil]

In fact, when Northern Ireland were playing Slovenia in Belfast the other week, a lad I know from Derry whose father comes from either Nigeria or Senegal (not 100 per cent certain which) and who is now living on Tate's Avenue near Windsor Park, evidently getting somewhat annoyed by chanting Northern Ireland fans walking past his door on their way to the ground, wrote the following as his Facebook status:

"Were not Brazill, we're Northern Ireland!"
Jesus f**k up you bunch of ignorant tw*ts...enjoy watching your wee made up country get beat"

Admittedly not the most amicable of comments, but I suppose it provides a bit of an insight into his convictions. He also happens to support Ireland when it comes to international loyalties.


This made me chuckle - thanks for sharing.:D

[The Fly]

"Were not Brazill, we're Northern Ireland!"
Jesus f**k up you bunch of ignorant tw*ts...enjoy watching your wee made up country get beat



You can tell he's not fully "Norn Iron" because that should've been 'get bate'

[DannyInvincible]

This made me chuckle - thanks for sharing.:D

Transpires the lad's father's from Ghana. Not sure why I had the other two in my head. Not that it matters a huge deal, but glad to be of assistance. ;)

[ArdeeBhoy]

Those two young lads with African heritage have obviously been well brought up. And noted their enviroment.

Wonder if the North have ever had any non-white fans??

[Not Brazil]

Wonder if the North have ever had any non-white fans??

Yes, Northern Ireland have had "non-white" fans...and still do.

[Charlie Darwin]

Sure they're all orange.

[Not Brazil]

Sure they're all orange.

Not all of us use sunbeds, or fake tan.

[SkStu]

Sure they're all orange.

http://8106.tv/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/willy_wonka.jpg

[Eminence Grise]

http://8106.tv/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/willy_wonka.jpg
They age well, all the same!1747

[co. down green]

Yes, Northern Ireland have had "non-white" fans...and still do.

http://www.orange-order.co.uk/chronicle/photo/galleries/Orange%20Diversity/africaorangeorder.jpg

[geysir]

The Royal Black Preceptors?

[tetsujin1979]

From todays Independent: http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/if-giovanni-decides-to-stop-i-would-be-very-proud-to-stay-2621278.html

The planned American jaunt will be for rising
stars, and Tardelli was coy enough on the
prospect of Derry-born Newcastle player Shane
Ferguson being in that number. The left-sided
performer has represented Northern Ireland in a
senior friendly, but the fear in Belfast is that he
intends to follow Shane Duffy and declare for
Ireland. "He hasn't indicated to us, but I like
him," smiled the Irish No 2. "There are many
ways for him to contact us."
The 19-year-old might be one for the future.
Whether it's a vision that involves Tardelli will
depend on the events of the next six months.

[DannyInvincible]

It would appear from that, in spite of the IFA recently making a very serious attempt to break from what Jim Boyce publicly accepted and agreed with the FAI in 1999 with regard to the status of northern-born Irish nationals (http://foot.ie/threads/132063-Player-eligibility-row?p=1380152&viewfull=1#post1380152) along with the CAS ruling as a result of that, that the FAI are still awaiting contact from interested northern parties first. Of course, there are complications with this. From a young player's perspective, it might appear somewhat arrogant on his behalf. Generally, players are invited to join international teams on the basis of being deemed worthy enough by whoever the particular manager is. They don't invite themselves. I understand why the FAI would be reluctant to appear like they're "intruding" on someone who'd have no interest in representing us either - leaving them open to criticism by over-sensitive whiners happy to latch the term "sectarian" onto anything that doesn't favour their political persuasion - but why worry about it really? It's perfectly legitimate and entirely within the rules. These nationals are born Irish just like every other national born on the island. Nothing wrong with making a brief enquiry. If the player says he's not interested, no harm done. Does the FAI wait for those who qualify under the "granny rule" to make first contact?

[geysir]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_uv-qYn_b7YQ/SRtHaWjrtLI/AAAAAAAAAPg/-arhMWSkcQc/s400/star_trek_first_contact_ver3.jpg

[TrapAPony]

Does the FAI wait for those who qualify under the "granny rule" to make first contact?

If they do then I don't think that's the right way to go about things.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Just invite/poach/press gang them....

[Predator]

According to a poster on a certain forum, Shane Ferguson is not sure about where his future lies.

[DannyInvincible]

According to a poster on a certain forum, Shane Ferguson is not sure about where his future lies.

I see Tardelli has been referred to in the most unendearing of terms for his brief comment on the matter, despite having clearly been directly asked about it by a journalist. From a NI fan's perspective, I can't see what problem there would be with it given that who initiates contact appears to be a pivotal issue. Besides, Tardelli is a thoroughly likeable and jovial chap. Don't think I've ever seen him without a smile on his face.

I also note the poster you're referring to had a word with Ferguson in an attempt to convince him to play for NI. Hmm... Given dubious and cloudy accusations of the FAI and nationalist community "pressuring" players from nationalist backgrounds into declaring for us, surely that's blatant hypocrisy? Another comments, "let's hope the lad has a mind of his own", as if declaring for the FAI would be indicative of some brainwashing having stripped poor Shane of his cognisance whilst sticking with NI could obviously only be entirely a decision made independently and totally at his own behest, but, indeed; let's hope the lad has a mind of his own.

[Predator]

I see Tardelli has been referred to in the most unendearing of terms for his brief comment on the matter, despite having clearly been directly asked about it by a journalist.That just shows you how blindly seething some of the IFA fans are on the matter. The mere fact that Tardelli commented on the matter is enough to send some into hysterics.


I also note the poster you're referring to had a word with Ferguson in an attempt to convince him to play for NI. Hmm... Given dubious and cloudy accusations of the FAI and nationalist community "pressuring" players from nationalist backgrounds into declaring for us, surely that's blatant hypocrisy?That it is, but when the IFA and their fans try to talk a player into doing something it's not 'coercion', it's 'encouragement', don't you know?.

[Predator]

Don Givens confirmed that the FAI has been in contact with Shane Ferguson in today's Star. He said that Ferguson wants a bit of time to make his decision.

[DannyInvincible]

Oh God, the FAI were in contact or Don Givens was in contact?...

[geysir]

Givens has stated that Shane has refused to play for his country.
Shane has claimed that he did say he needed a bit of time to make his decision but Don had slammed down the phone before he could go on to explain that he wants to declare for the FAI but first he wants to inform his parents.

[Predator]

Honestly, I only had a sneaky glance in a petrol station this morning without actually buying the paper. It mentioned someone else speaking on behalf of the FAI, so I don't think it was Givens himself...

[Sullivinho]

From today's Examiner:

Trap likely to call up North ace Ferguson

Giovanni Trapattoni is set to annoy the IFA again and call Newcastle United's Shane Ferguson into his squad for the Carling Nations Cup game against Northern Ireland next month.

Derry-born Ferguson has met Irish scout Mick Martin to discuss his move to the Republic despite winning a senior cap with the North.

the 19 year old left-sided player appeared in a 2009 friendly against Italy but is still free to switch allegiances.

Trapattoni is ready to name him in the squad for the end of season games against Northern ireland, Scotland and Macedonia despite the problems it will cause with the North.

Darron Gibson, Marc Wilson and Shane Duffy have already switched sides and chief Irish scout Don Givens knows the latest movement will irritate Nigel Worthington and the IFA.

"Shane is still kind of making his mind up but Mick Martin has spoken to him" confirmed Givens. "I'm sure the North are not too happy with us. They have a small pool of players but in the long run, the less good results they get the more the dual players will want to come to us."

[Stuttgart88]

"in the long run, the less good results they get the more the dual players will want to come to us."Hmm, they're quite handily placed right now despite a couple of poor results. Just shows the value of a decent away win over a direct opponent. I wouldn't bet too much on NI underperforming the ROI in this campaign - wrt group placing anyway, maybe not total points.

[cornflakes]

"Shane is still kind of making his mind up but Mick Martin has spoken to him" confirmed Givens. "I'm sure the North are not too happy with us. They have a small pool of players but in the long run, the less good results they get the more the dual players will want to come to us."

Givens is some **** stirrer

[Predator]

Ah. Mick Martin, it was.

I'm sure the North are not too happy with us. They have a small pool of players but in the long run, the less good results they get the more the dual players will want to come to us.I don't think the results of the IFA team matter much to the likes of Shane Ferguson, Shane Duffy, Gibson, Wilson, Kearns when it comes to making the decision to change to the FAI.

[Charlie Darwin]

Givens is simply incapable of opening his mouth without rubbing someone up the wrong way.

edit: that just sounds dirty

[Sullivinho]

I don't think the results of the IFA team matter much to the likes of Shane Ferguson, Shane Duffy, Gibson, Wilson, Kearns when it comes to making the decision to change to the FAI.

That's what I was thinking myself. I reckon Don knows it too.

[DannyInvincible]

Interesting developments and good to hear it if Ferguson does eventually go through with the switch. I hadn't really seen it ending that way. Givens' comments are cretinous coming from someone in a professional capacity, mind.

[SkStu]

"Shane is still kind of making his mind up but Mick Martin has spoken to him" confirmed Givens. "I'm sure the North are not too happy with us. They have a small pool of players but in the long run, the less good results they get the more the dual players will want to come to us."

thats pretty reprehensible from Givens.

[ArdeeBhoy]

I don't think the results of the IFA team matter much to the likes of Shane Ferguson, Shane Duffy, Gibson, Wilson, Kearns when it comes to making the decision to change to the FAI.

Agreed. It's more a question of nationality and cultural identity that they probably feel more comfortable with.

And why have a pop at Givens or whoever, they're only the messenger.

[Eirambler]

Agreed. It's more a question of nationality and cultural identity that they probably feel more comfortable with.

And why have a pop at Givens or whoever, they're only the messenger.

Because Givens is basically saying that its good if Ferguson switches because it will make NI more **** and because of this we can get more of their players. Whereas, like you say, its really about a sense of nationality and identity rather than just playing for the better team. He's just stirring the pot for no good reason and thats not doing either side any favours.

[DannyInvincible]

I'd be critical of Givens on the basis that I doubt he's reiterating any official FAI line. He appears to be indulging in some needless personal waffle that also happens to be both ignorant and entirely incorrect; results having absolutely nothing to do with player allegiance, of course, as has been pointed out.

Being unnecessarily triumphalist - something on which Givens verges by expressly referring to the IFA's situation when it ought to be entirely irrelevant to our ambitions - wouldn't be the most prudent of official stances either as it merely serves to provoke further paranoid hysteria around what should be a non-issue, not to mention providing fuel for a mass helping of vitriol towards the specific players concerned, and doesn't look too smart when trying to exert a claim over the moral high ground on the issue at large either. Don't give their overused windbags any more bloody oxygen, for Pete's sake!

Players declaring to play for us should not be scrutinised in the context of declaring for us at the IFA's expense, as if the IFA's situation is our fault or the fault of the player. Northern-born Irish nationals have as much right to play for us as they do them. The debate as to who "possesses" these individuals is, of course, a redundant, ludicrous and utterly objectionable concept, but if a cretin were to go conceptualising down that route, as I've seen many do, these individuals, in the daft nomenclature of such an argument, are as much "our" players as they are "their" players. Likewise, the FAI also bear a financial cost from players who declare to play for us at whatever level, just in the same way the IFA do, and just as both associations reap the accompanying and concurrent rewards.

Anyway, personally, I'm just delighted that Ferguson looks set to finally declare for his country. ;)

[ArdeeBhoy]

Because Givens is basically saying that its good if Ferguson switches because it will make NI more **** and because of this we can get more of their players. Whereas, like you say, its really about a sense of nationality and identity rather than just playing for the better team. He's just stirring the pot for no good reason and thats not doing either side any favours.

Maybe, but think a lot of people seem to be overstating his influence. For once I wouldn't agree 100% with DI, but will cede once again to his more articulate response.

And even if Givens is doing what his critics suggest, to me it's 'fair game' in the general scheme of things. Especially in the overall context of what's preceded this.
Do you think anyone would behave differently under the same circumstances??

[Charlie Darwin]

Givens' comments were snide, which helps nobody and makes the FAI out to be arrogant. It's not nice and we shouldn't applaud it. Even though we're competing with them for players, I'd always wish NI the best and would like nothing more than to see both our teams compete at a major tournament.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Fair enough CD, but as we all know that feeling's hardly mutual.

[mastershake]

I have no sympathy for the north losing out on players especially as the governing body there haven't been arsed about changing to a more politically correct and meaningful national anthem. How players from nationalist communities can stand and listen to that before a match is beyond me. I mean Neil Lennon did his level best and look at the treatment he's been getting. Sort the IFA out into being a less sectarian organisation and maybe just maybe there wont be as many 'deserters' to the south.Till such a time I don't think northern fans can have to many grievances.

[Gather round]

the governing body there haven't been arsed about changing to a more politically correct and meaningful national anthem

Er, it's both politically popular with the fans, at least more so than any suggested equivalent (my own would be Them's 'Gloria') and meaningful (everyone knows what it means). If fans in Wales, Scotland and the Irish Republic prefer alternative tuneless dirges that's fine, but does it really matter that much what they think?


How players from nationalist communities can stand and listen to that before a match is beyond me

Nobody's forcing them. It only lasts about a minute, they can blank it out (as I've done in the 40 odd years I've been watching NI games).


Sort the IFA out into being a less sectarian organisation

It isn't any more sectarian than any other international football set-up. It symbols etc. reflect broadly what the fans want even if they're mildly irritating to non fans.


maybe just maybe there wont be as many 'deserters' to the south

Maybe, though I doubt that the flag/ anthem at Windsor make any difference to this. There's plenty of anecdotal evidence on this forum than NI-based RoI fans support the latter because they identify with it, usually as their families have for generations. They wouldn't change if the IFA hired a new musical and interior design director.

[Gather round]

Being unnecessarily triumphalist...wouldn't be the most prudent of official stances either

Agreed. Not until a triumph has been achieved, at least ;). See you in D4 at the end of May.


Anyway, personally, I'm just delighted that Ferguson looks set to finally declare for his second country. ;)

Aye, I'm sure he'll settle quickly with all the English and Scots in the set-up.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Presumably, you mean, the last sentence refers to his time with the North??
;)

And you told me you weren't going anywhere near D4....
:rolleyes:

[gastric]

Agreed. Not until a triumph has been achieved, at least ;). See you in D4 at the end of May.



Aye, I'm sure he'll settle quickly with all the English and Scots in the set-up.

You're beginning to sound irrational again and nasty as well. Maybe Don was right in what he said and we will continue to use the North as our own little nursery!

[DannyInvincible]

Maybe, but think a lot of people seem to be overstating his influence. For once I wouldn't agree 100% with DI, but will cede once again to his more articulate response.

And even if Givens is doing what his critics suggest, to me it's 'fair game' in the general scheme of things. Especially in the overall context of what's preceded this.
Do you think anyone would behave differently under the same circumstances??

I suppose what I mean to say is that I don't think it's helpful to allow the attachment of this notion or baggage to a player's decision which construes it as doing some party a favour at the expense of another. Players ought to be left to decide independently and on their own terms and not be made feel like they owe something to sets of football associations or fans who are just as self-interested as anyone else. What Givens says, however, appears to - maybe unwittingly, if he's to be granted the benefit of the doubt - reinforce the misguided notion that the FAI are out to serve the IFA harm and ill-will, and worse, he's directly implicating the northern-born players who decide to play for us in that. He also happens to demean their motives and makes them sound like pawns or tactical chips in a game where the aim is not only to better yourself, but to take satisfaction in ensuring damage is done to your "enemy" in the process.

I know if they hadn't closed Ferguson's thread on OWC due to the speculation of previous weeks, they'd be venting fury there over Givens' quip right now.

I suppose in the aftermath of the IFA having breached the concord between the two associations by bringing Daniel Kearns, the FAI and FIFA to CAS, you could argue Givens may be somewhat justified if it's intentional, but, in the interests of the FAI appearing to be a professional and competent association, it really doesn't look good for official purposes. It all just comes across as a bit smarmy.

[DannyInvincible]

I have no sympathy for the north losing out on players especially as the governing body there haven't been arsed about changing to a more politically correct and meaningful national anthem. How players from nationalist communities can stand and listen to that before a match is beyond me. I mean Neil Lennon did his level best and look at the treatment he's been getting. Sort the IFA out into being a less sectarian organisation and maybe just maybe there wont be as many 'deserters' to the south.Till such a time I don't think northern fans can have to many grievances.

Symbolism is obviously an issue that garners much more attention in NI than it would in other societies with more peaceful recent histories, but I really don't know if the anthem is actually the issue here. I think it's just a strawman that people use to further damn the IFA or something with which they kid themselves in order to appear like they're offering the IFA a neat solution. Identity is also a critical issue and many nationalists just don't and won't identify with NI as an entity so long as it will always be inherently British whilst it exists.

For most of my friends in Derry, the idea of supporting NI would just never have crossed their minds. It wasn't a case of consciously deciding not to support NI because the idea was objectionable to them and then supporting Ireland as a reaction to that or as the next best option; they support Ireland and always have done whether a team organised by the IFA exists or not because they identify with Ireland rather than Britain culturally. The IFA team is just an irrelevancy really, for want of a better description, and are viewed as just another team in international football; not someone who you'd consider supporting, in the same way you wouldn't support Belarus, Uzbekistan or Namibia. Changing an anthem would be a superficial gesture and would change little else of substance. 'God Save the Queen' might no longer be anthem, but she still remains as head of state, which is actually quite a crucial factor when all is said and done in case people were overlooking that. Of course, to move beyond political history and relate her to the footballing sphere, I spotted an uncanny resemblance during the whole wedding razzle-dazzle yesterday; isn't she identical to Alex Ferguson, except with a cracking pair of... ;)

[Predator]

I see that some are once again suggesting that this is 'confirmation' that the FAI is sectarian in making approaches to players. After all, it's an association of sectarian kidnappers.

[DannyInvincible]

The ever-reliable Belfast Telegraph has trotted out their latest (fairly crap) piece on young Ferguson: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/international/republic-in-move-for-northern-irelands-shane-ferguson-15149212.html


Yesterday Don Givens, who heads up the Republic's scouting network, admitted that the FAI had been in contact with Ferguson...

More a straightforward statement, I would have said. To admit to something, you'd have to be guilty of some wrongdoing for which to confess in the first place.


The move, predicted by the Belfast Telegraph last month...

Aren't they marvellous?...


Two years ago FIFA decreed that under the Good Friday Agreement if a player eligible for Northern Ireland has an Irish passport he can play for the Republic.

The FAI have taken full advantage of that ruling with Darron Gibson, Shane Duffy, Marc Wilson, Daniel Kearns and Paul George making the move.

http://joerob.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/embarrassed-monkey.jpg

What a bizarre, twisted and factually suspect set of lines. FIFA decreed nothing of the sort, never mind two years ago, whilst plenty of northern-born players played for our sides long before Darron Gibson ever declared for us; prior even to the Good Friday Agreement.

At least they left out that standard paragraph they always include where they completely misrepresent what the rules actually say, although they just couldn't let all mention of it go completely...


Ferguson, who hails from Londonderry, has already played at senior level for the country of his birth, coming on as a substitute in a 3-0 defeat to Italy in June 2009.

[ArdeeBhoy]

To be fair, DI, you and the other Two Wise men, need to write a definitive article between you for the BT and the rest of their constituency.

The truth is of course, this is too unpalatable for certain parties to accept, hence their stance. And this is 'only football.
:rolleyes:

[DannyInvincible]

I see that some are once again suggesting that this is 'confirmation' that the FAI is sectarian in making approaches to players. After all, it's an association of sectarian kidnappers.

I don't think people know what "sectarian" means any more when the FAI accommodating an individual's expression of his Irish identity is construed in such a term, or else there's some agenda at play. Hmm...

I'd imagine we've had Protestants play for us in recent times. Sure Alan Kernaghan was from a Protestant background, albeit secular, religion having "meant diddly" to him (http://sport.scotsman.com/rangersfc/Kernaghan-still-pushing-back-the.3337606.jp). Maybe we even have Protestants in our current squads, God forbid! Who knows or cares? One thing for certain though is that we don't know for sure probably due to the fact there's never been an issue made of it because no-one, including the FAI, could care less what religion any of our players are. Religious segregation doesn't actually permeate every facet of life south of the border which is maybe why some of these OWC dullards find the notion that some people don't spend their days worrying about what one's religion might be so difficulty to comprehend.