Shane Ferguson

[youngirish]

According to a poster on ybig he's commited himself to NI as he dosent feel he's good enough to play for us......best of luck to the lad.

When did we become Brazil?

I suppose though with players like McShane and Kilbane ahead of him he knows he has a near impossible task to break into the defence while until both Paul Green and Andy Keogh retire he'll be unable to stake a claim for a midfield spot.

[boovidge]

He made it clear earlier this year his lack of commitment to playing for NI; on the strength of that I wouldn't be offering him an U-21 cap now.

If you take this attitude to its logical conclusion you should be against NI picking players such as Lee Camp who waited until it was clear he wouldn't get a chance with England before making the switch to NI. An association like yours with such a small pool of talent can't be too picky when it comes to players. Stop picking anyone who even considers playing for the ROI and you effectively rule out the entire nationalist community.

[Sullivinho]

Only its playing for your country,your flag. If he has to think that much about it maybe he is better off staying. It should be a no brainer TBH

I share your idealism Newryrep but I think some subjective realism is not entirely unreasonable from someone in Shane Ferguson's position. If he believes his level of ability relegates him to a flag not of his own and keeping abreast of Ireland's fortunes with chairman McGinn and the rest of the OWC based ROI supporters club, so be it. Speaking of McGinn, had he declared for us a few years back, how many international caps would he have now? That's the kind of hypothetical proposition I assume Ferguson will have been mulling over these last few months, based on the reported reasoning given by that source on YBIG.


Since he started kicking a ball you've qualified for one finals out of eight. Somehow I doubt Ferguson is really weighing up his chances of a working holiday in Brazil, France, Russia or Qatar.

Y'think?

[Gather round]

If you take this attitude to its logical conclusion you should be against NI picking players such as Lee Camp who waited until it was clear he wouldn't get a chance with England before making the switch to NI

I've made clear I don't think we should pick English U-21 or U-19 players, or those already capped by any other country. Of course I realise that as long as the FIFA rules allow movement, my preference is very much in a minority.


An association like yours with such a small pool of talent can't be too picky when it comes to players

Regardless of pool size, I think we can be picky enough to ignore players who give the impression of not being arsed.


Stop picking anyone who even considers playing for the ROI and you effectively rule out the entire nationalist community

Hardly just anyone, is it- the bloke got a full cap (if absurdly) as a 17 year old in 2009. Any other member of the Nationalist community who wants to play for the RoI should, if offered a NI cap as an adult, either

a) accept it and not consider playing for the RoI or anyone else in future, or

b) decline it. Preferably before the squad is announced puvlicly, or at least not three days later like James McClean.

There's no inherent reason why any MotNC can't go on to have a career playing for NI, just as English and Scottish players turn out for the RoI.

Sull: y'what?

[Not Brazil]

If you take this attitude to its logical conclusion you should be against NI picking players such as Lee Camp who waited until it was clear he wouldn't get a chance with England before making the switch to NI. An association like yours with such a small pool of talent can't be too picky when it comes to players. Stop picking anyone who even considers playing for the ROI and you effectively rule out the entire nationalist community.

Lee Camp played for England, and switched to Northern Ireland when he weighed up that he was very unlikely to represent England at senior international level, because he wasn't good enough.

Players like Duffy played for Northern Ireland until such times they thought they were good enough to play for the South.

We hear that Ferguson isn't switching to the South because he feels he isn't good enough.

Camp didn't represent England all the time harbouring ambitions to play at senior international level for Northern Ireland - if good enough, he would have stuck with England.

Do you get the difference?

If you want to try your luck with the South, just go before representing Northern Ireland at Under 19 or above.

Perhaps the default position for the IFA should be that "nationalist" players are assumed, all things being equal, to have a preference to represent the South at senior international level. The IFA can then concentrate on developing players whose ambition is to represent Northern Ireland at senior international level.
Of course, any "nationalist" player who persues his dream with the South, but finds he isn't good enough, could contact the IFA and let them know that he would consider a switch?

What you reckon?

[Lionel Ritchie]

Perhaps the default position for the IFA should be that "nationalist" players are assumed, all things being equal, to have a preference to represent the South at senior international level. The IFA can then concentrate on developing players whose ambition is to represent Northern Ireland at senior international level.
Of course, any "nationalist" player who persues his dream with the South, but finds he isn't good enough, could contact the IFA and let them know that he would consider a switch?

What you reckon? I reckon you're edging towards dangerous ground. Just have a think about the practicalities on the ground of implimenting such a 'default position'.

[youngirish]

I reckon you're edging towards dangerous ground. Just have a think about the practicalities on the ground of implimenting such a 'default position'.

The only way to achieve such a scenario is to have both FAI and IFA youth training camps in the North. Let the player decide from a young age which one he wishes to attend. I somehow doubt though if that solution would be agreeable to Not Brazil.

[Not Brazil]

The only way to achieve such a scenario is to have both FAI and IFA youth training camps in the North. Let the player decide from a young age which one he wishes to attend.

In such a scenario, there would be absolutely no need to have "FAI and IFA youth training camps in the North" whatsoever.

Players wishing to play for the South could simply attend FAI youth training camps in the 26 Counties ie. on the territory of the FAI. - I'm quite sure if it is the player's dream to play for the South at senior interrnational level, the location of a youth training camp isn't going to stop him persuing that dream.

[ifk101]

There are FAI regional development centers in Letterkenny and Dundalk which arguably can "service" the Northeast. Probably would be a good idea to have a regional development center in Belfast as well to make it more convenient for all involved.

[BonnieShels]

There are FAI regional development centers in Letterkenny and Dundalk which arguably can "service" the Northeast. Probably would be a good idea to have a regional development center in Belfast as well to make it more convenient for all involved.

Imagine that, sure getting a consular/passport office was had enough.

[Not Brazil]

. Probably would be a good idea to have a regional development center in Belfast as well to make it more convenient for all involved.

Good luck with that "good idea".:D

[ifk101]

Liverpool FC have an academy in the Northeast so why not the FAI?

[Newryrep]

There are FAI regional development centers in Letterkenny and Dundalk which arguably can "service" the Northeast. Probably would be a good idea to have a regional development center in Belfast as well to make it more convenient for all involved.

You can do South Belfast to Dundalk in about 1 hour with a favourable wind. What is a reasonalble distance/timeframe to be near an FAI centre haour and half ? Antrim would most likely be most disadvantaged

[Not Brazil]

What is a reasonalble distance/timeframe to be near an FAI centre haour and half ? Antrim would most likely be most disadvantaged

I'm sure in the pursuit of a childhood dream, an extra half hour is neither here nor there.

[geysir]

We hear that Ferguson isn't switching to the South because he feels he isn't good enough.

Would that be an anonymous internet rumor?

Is there no room for a player who wants to represent the FAI but is also okay with representing the IFA?
Is the prerequisite for Nationalists who wish to represent the IFA, that they relegate their sentiments to the default OWC position?

[boovidge]

Is the prerequisite for Nationalists who wish to represent the IFA, that they relegate their sentiments to the default OWC position?

Become bitter hypocrites you mean?

[Gather round]

Would that be an anonymous internet rumor?

Some bloke who says he knows and has spoken recently Ferguson's family, wasn't it?


Is there no room for a player who wants to represent the FAI but is also okay with representing the IFA?

There's room for anyone eligible and committed, even if he supports and might have ideally preferred to play for another team. Ferguson's declining past call-ups suggests a lack of commitment.


Is the prerequisite for Nationalists who wish to represent the IFA, that they relegate their sentiments to the default OWC position?

Don't ask, don't tell, you mean? I take your point, but no. They need merely show commitment as above. If so, how sentimental their politics are is irrelevant.

[Newryrep]

Don't ask, don't tell, you mean? I take your point, but no. They need merely show commitment as above. If so, how sentimental their politics are is irrelevant.

Like gays in the US military:)

[Not Brazil]

Is there no room for a player who wants to represent the FAI but is also okay with representing the IFA?
Is the prerequisite for Nationalists who wish to represent the IFA, that they relegate their sentiments to the default OWC position?

The prerequisite should simply be that the IFA nurture and develop those players who ambition is to represent Northern Ireland at senior international level.

[Wolfman]

Since he started kicking a ball you've qualified for one finals out of eight. Somehow I doubt Ferguson is really weighing up his chances of a working holiday in Brazil, France, Russia or Qatar.
Whereas the North have qualified for how many (or even play-offs) since October '85?
Thirteen successive finals missed (probably) and counting.


The prerequisite should simply be that the IFA nurture and develop those players who ambition is to represent Northern Ireland at senior international level.

But is this actually even anyone? Has anyone ever come out and said it's their 'ambition' to do that ?? Examples, please!

And it's 'whose'. At least get that right!

[Gather round]

Whereas the North have qualified for how many (or even play-offs) since October '85?
Fourteen finals missed and counting

Only 12 actually in the last 24 years. I'd concentrate on basic arithmetic before criticising anyone else's typo errors?

Ferguson is supposedly eligible for three international teams, who have managed one finals tournament between them in the last 18 attempts. It's a reasonable assumption that likelihood of qualification isn't a major factor in his choice.

[ifk101]

Ferguson is supposedly eligible for three international teams, who have managed one finals tournament between them in the last 18 attempts. It's a reasonable assumption that likelihood of qualification isn't a major factor in his choice.

Let's not get carried away with ourselves. Has he actually made a choice? It is reasonable to assume he has chosen NI but until he is capped at competitive level this isn't set in stone. From his past actions it is a reasonable assumption that representing the IFA in international competition isn't high on his agenda. So "a reasonable assumption that likelihood of qualification isn't a major factor in his choice" is premature to say the least. If he subsequently ties himself to NI then it can be concluded that "likelihood of qualification isn't a major factor in his choice".

[Gather round]

Let's not get carried away with ourselves

I haven't. Ferguson is still eligible for three international teams, all of whom are mediocre and rarely qualify for finals.

[Not Brazil]

But is this actually even anyone? Has anyone ever come out and said it's their 'ambition' to do that ?? Examples, please!


Of course.

Plenty of patriotic young players from Northern Ireland aspire to representing Northern Ireland at senior international level - that would be evidenced by their actions.

Those in our underage ranks who don't wish to play at senior international level for Northern Ireland need to be weeded out in favour of those who do.

[ifk101]

I haven't.

You have.


I Ferguson is still eligible for three international teams

Apparently so.


all of whom are mediocre

Bunching all three teams as mediocre is lazy. It suggests they are all at the same level of mediocrity which clearly isn't the (5-0) case.


and rarely qualify for finals.

This is an indication rather than a determinant of future qualification likelihood.

[Gather round]

Bunching all three teams as mediocre is lazy. It suggests they are all at the same level of mediocrity

It isn't lazy and doesn't suggest anything of the sort. None of them qualify regularly, but that doesn't mean they're all equally mediocre, nor as bad as San Marino or Andorra. Just that they all meet the basic test of mediocrity, ie qualifying less often than Slovenia.


This is an indication rather than a determinant of future qualification likelihood

It's both. Mid-term past results are a fair guide to mid-term future chances.

[ifk101]

It isn't lazy and doesn't suggest anything of the sort.

It is lazy to brand all three mediocre. Branding all three as mediocre suggests all three are the same which clearly isn't the (5-0) case.


None of them qualify regularly,

True. Ireland last qualified in 2002 after finishing second (on goal difference) in a group of six teams and subsequently defeating Iran in a two-legged play-off. 50 Uefa teams competed for WC qualification.

NI last qualified in 1986 when 32 Uefa teams competed for WC qualification. The top two in NI's group of 5 teams qualified automatically for the 1986 WC.


but that doesn't mean they're all equally mediocre,

finally....


nor as bad as San Marino or Andorra.

Andorra made a better game of it than NI ......


Just that they all meet the basic test of mediocrity, ie qualifying less often than Slovenia.

The test of mediocrity is Slovenia?


It's both. Mid-term past results are a fair guide to mid-term future chances.

"Mid-term past results" (to use your terminology) are used to determine a team's seeding - let's call it a measure of their mediocrity or Slovenia-ism. The likelihood of a team qualifying for a major finals can be determined by their seeding. Currently Ireland is ranked 31st in the World. I can't find what page NI's ranking is on .....

[Gather round]

It is lazy to brand all three mediocre. Branding all three as mediocre suggests all three are the same which clearly isn't the (5-0) case

Repeating this doesn't make it any more sensible. You've qualified for one finals out of eight. That's mediocre, given the evidence of smaller countries that have done as well, as better. You're less mediocre than NI based on results in those tournaments, particularly the current and most recent one, not on friendlies. Sure, we were rubbish in all three Dublin games. Although based on Euro 2012 qualifying alone, we're currently a bit less so than Scotland and Wales.


NI last qualified in 1986 when 32 Uefa teams competed for WC qualification. The top two in NI's group of 5 teams qualified automatically for the 1986 WC

How is this relevant? It's a bit more difficult to make the World Cup nowadays, I'll agree: but rather easier to reach Euro finals, where we've both flunked four in a row. Mediocre, eh?


Andorra made a better game of it than NI ......

Alternatively, beating a team of part-timers by only two goals is rather more mediocre than managing four. Look at the big picture, man.


The test of mediocrity is Slovenia?

Small country where football's not the main sport. Subjective, but I use it partly because of their recent fictures with us. But mainly because of their success in qualifying.


Currently Ireland is ranked 31st in the World. I can't find what page NI's ranking is on .....

That's the trouble with you boffins. Quite happy to go about determinants, but struggle with the three Rs. Your FIFA ranking of 20th in Europe (ours is 31st, all 53 fit quite easily on one page) suggests you won't qualify for a 16 team finals.

If regularly finishing above NI cheers you, fine. If you don't start to qualify more often it's about as pointless as us lording over Wales because we've outpointed them ever since Euro 2004.

[ifk101]

Repeating this doesn't make it any more sensible.

It's very sensible. Actually.


You've qualified for one finals out of eight.

Correct.


That's mediocre

Agree. Have I said otherwise?


given the evidence of smaller countries that have done as well, as better.

Yes you can argue that.


You're less mediocre than NI

So we're not at the same level?


based on results in those tournaments, particularly the current and most recent one, not on friendlies.

Yes you can argue that.


Sure, we were rubbish in all three Dublin games.

Rubbish? Understatement alert!


Although based on Euro 2012 qualifying alone, we're currently a bit less so than Scotland and Wales.

The three teams are not facing the same opposition in their respective groups. I'd consider a team's ranking and recent head to head games to make comparisons.


How is this relevant?

I agreed with you. I added background information for those that do not recall the last time Ireland or NI qualified for a WC or major championship.


It's a bit more difficult to make the World Cup nowadays, I'll agree

I concur.


: but rather easier to reach Euro finals, where we've both flunked four in a row. Mediocre, eh?

Read previous responses.


Alternatively, beating a team of part-timers by only two goals is rather more mediocre than managing four. Look at the big picture, man.

???



Small country where football's not the main sport. Subjective, but I use it partly because of their recent fictures with us. But mainly because of their success in qualifying.

???


That's the trouble with you boffins.

???


Quite happy to go about determinants, but struggle with the three Rs. Your FIFA ranking of 20th in Europe (ours is 31st, all 53 fit quite easily on one page) suggests you won't qualify for a 16 team finals.

We are determining the likelihood/ probability of future qualification. Higher ranked and subsequently higher seeded teams have a greater likelihood of qualification than lesser teams such as San Marino, Andorra and NI.


If regularly finishing above NI cheers you, fine.

That's not an achievement to take cheer from.


If you don't start to qualify more often it's about as pointless as us lording over Wales because we've outpointed them ever since Euro 2004.

I take it Wales outpointed NI prior to Euro 2004?

[DannyInvincible]

Any hopes Ferguson had of breaking through at Newcastle this season will have been dealt a further blow by the signing of Davide Santon, presumably a long-term replacement for José Enrique. Pardew was already favouring Ryan Taylor, a right-back over Ferguson, although his fitness was also lacking for the first two games.

[Wolfman]

Only 12 actually in the last 24 years. I'd concentrate on basic arithmetic before criticising anyone else's typo errors?
My bad. Should have been the last 13. Or are you going to tell me the North are going to qualify for next year??
They won't make 2014, mind.


Plenty of patriotic young players from Northern Ireland aspire to representing Northern Ireland at senior international level - that would be evidenced by their actions.

Yes, but who are all these people whose dream it is? What are their names? And evidence, please!

[Not Brazil]

Yes, but who are all these people whose dream it is? What are their names? And evidence, please!

All players representing Northern Ireland at Under 19 and Under 21 level must aspire to representing Northern Ireland at senior international level - if this is not the case, they should be weeded out of the system.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Aye, but yer man's right.
That's not a name, nor is it 'evidence'.

Just pointless waffle...

[Not Brazil]

Aye, but yer man's right.
That's not a name, nor is it 'evidence'.

Just pointless waffle...

The names are all those in our Under 19 and Under 21 squads.

The evidence is they accept the call up.

If this is not the case, I await names and evidence.

Cue "pointless waffle" and "so what?" diversions.:rolleyes:

[ArdeeBhoy]

You mean Hypocrisy by your good self surely??
And tedious repetition.
;)

Anyway until they play a full competitive game, your 'theory' is hardly watertight, is it...

[Not Brazil]

Anyway until they play a full competitive game, your 'theory' is hardly watertight, is it...

My "theory" is simple - if you don't aspire to represent Northern Ireland at senior international level, no room for you in the Under 19 and Under 21 squads.

If there are any players in our current Under19 and Under 21 squads who don't aspire to represent Northern Ireland at senior international level, I look forward to names and evidence.

No hypocricy in that, mo chara.

[ifk101]

Shane Ferguson played twice for NI's U21 side in the past few days, a 0-1 away defeat to Serbia and yesterday's 3-0 home defeat to Denmark. As he has played in competitive matches for NI at U21 level he cannot represent us at U21 level until the current U21 qualification is completed.

With NI's senior team faring no better than their U21 counterparts, (both teams qualification hopes are effectively over), I'd imagine Ferguson will be called up by Nigel for the remaining two senior qualifiers to tie him to the North.

[bwagner]

why the heck would you want to play for a team that got hammered by Estonia...taig or not

[Not Brazil]

Shane Ferguson played twice for NI's U21 side in the past few days, a 0-1 away defeat to Serbia and yesterday's 3-0 home defeat to Denmark. As he has played in competitive matches for NI at U21 level he cannot represent us at U21 level until the current U21 qualification is completed.


Following the match against Denmark, Ferguson went to the cinema with his mates - to watch the appropriately named "Inbetweeners" movie.

[cestlavie]

Any player that plays underage up until under 19 level in competitive capacity (like Euro championships etc) should not be allowed to switch allegiance after this point.

Northern Ireland have a point when it comes to investing time and money into the youth set up for players to walk away is really though on them.

Yes we are the main benefactors but maybe we should come to an amicable agreement to help curtail this going forward and draw a line under it.

Legally its not wrong but morally it is certainly questionable.

Its a two way process. Players appear to be quite happy to get the chance and the exposure to play at international schoolboy level but sometimes walk away far too easy.

Just a thought!

[Irish_Praha]

I said this about a year ago and I'll say it again; have we (ROI) actually "poached" any players that have made any decent contribution to the senior squad yet?
I know most of the players we are talking about are still very young and have plenty of time to prove their worth but there's quite a few of them (Gibson, Wilson) old enough to have made their mark by now.

I mean every second week we hear of a new player crossing over and how he's the next great thing but most of them have been up to now mediocre at best.
When we get a real quality player then I guess they (NI) will have a reason to really complain.

[Predator]

The quality of the player is irrelevant.

[Irish_Praha]

The quality of the player is irrelevant.

You are probably right but I just don't like the way that each player is being built up to be the best thing since ehm.. Best just because he has defected when the vast majority of them are not very good.
It would be like us saying NI took one of the best young defenders around from us when Bruce decided to play for them.

[dantheman]

Lets be honest, Wilson & Gibson would both have played in Tallinn. Not saying much, but theyre better than say Josh Carson!

[ArdeeBhoy]

I said this about a year ago and I'll say it again; have we (ROI) actually "poached" any players that have made any decent contribution to the senior squad yet?

Give it time, FFS. Might take 20 years to see the fruition...assuming there are still 2 teams still by then.
:rolleyes:

[osarusan]

I said this about a year ago and I'll say it again; have we (ROI) actually "poached" any players that have made any decent contribution to the senior squad yet?



You are probably right but I just don't like the way that each player is being built up to be the best thing since ehm..
It wouldn't surprise me if the IFA were helping to push the idea of losing their 'best' players to the ROI to highlight the extent to which they are, in their eyes, being 'wronged'.

In reality, it's hard for a player to have made a 'decent contribution to the senior squad' when they have to make the switch before they play in a competitive senior game.

[CraftyToePoke]

In reality, it's hard for a player to have made a 'decent contribution to the senior squad' when they have to make the switch before they play in a competitive senior game.

He's meaning a decent contribution to our senior squad surely ? Post switch.

[osarusan]

He's meaning a decent contribution to our senior squad surely ? Post switch.
Yes, of course, my mistake.

[Predator]

It wouldn't surprise me if the IFA were helping to push the idea of losing their 'best' players to the ROI to highlight the extent to which they are, in their eyes, being 'wronged'.According to the rhetoric of "cherry-picking" being uttered by Worthington, Armstrong et al, that's exactly what's going on. It's a warped, reactionary mindset and their utterances amount to little more than hot air.

[ArdeeBhoy]

To be fair, it is a 'mindset' based on 300-odd years of bigotry...