Celtic Cup thread

[geysir]

Don't think he qualifies.

As I understand it, someone is automatically eligible from birth for Irish citizenship law if he, or a parent, was born in Ireland (either part). And it is this automatic entitlement which makes a player eligible to represent ROI, under FIFA's Article 15.

Whereas if someone only has a Grandparent born in Ireland (either part), then he may apply for Irish citizenship and will normally be granted it - especially if he's a decent footballer! - but it is not automatic. Therefore such players do not qualify for ROI under Article 15.

Instead, they have to rely on Article 18 (refers to someone switching Nationality), which as well as requiring the applicant to hold the relevant citizenship, also requires that he either have a (biological) parent/grandfather born within the jurisdiction of the Association in question, or have resided there for a minimum period.

Camp's connection to Ireland is, I believe, a Belfast-born grandfather.
The eligibility rule does not refer to jurisdiction, it refers to territory.
As I already pointed out, the eligibility rule that allows Alex Bruce (who has a belfast born grandmother) to qualify for us in 2006, has remained unchanged/unaltered.
Annex 901 became article 17c , eligible if - 'His grandmother or grandfather was born on the territory of the relevant Association'
As it stands now, Camp qualifies for both the FAI and IFA. Having a grandparent born anywhere on the island, qualifies as being born on the territory from which the FAI can draw upon.

Also the eminent Howard Wells has already made noise to FIFA in 2007 about Alex Bruce.
"This is an issue to do with player eligibility according to FIFA's own rules. It is a principle that needs to be resolved based on player eligibility, so that it is applied consistently.
"Alex Bruce is a player we have asked FIFA and the Republic to clarify but it is not about individuals, it is about the principle."

[ifk101]

Ordinarily Lee Camp would be eligible for both the FAI and IFA.

However there has been quite a long hold up in Lee Camp's switch to the IFA. Either he doesn't have an Irish born granny or perhaps his previous registration with the English FA is stopping the switch due to Camp's current age.

[bennocelt]

Camp's connection to Ireland is, I believe, a Belfast-born grandfather.

Didnt Alan kernaghan qualify for us cause his grandparent was born during the time of the free state (all Ireland) team?

[Duggie]

is RTE not showing highlights of tue nights game????? i cant see it in any tv listings other than its on sky sports??????

[Eminence Grise]

Didnt Alan kernaghan qualify for us cause his grandparent was born during the time of the free state (all Ireland) team?

Close: his grandfather was born (in Belfast, I think) before the enactment of the Anglo-Irish Treaty and the creation of the Free State. There would have been an all-island team at that time, but obviously it split after 1922.

(Been doing some research on the Treaty lately: it never defined nationality, only the conditions for citizenship, and citizens were automatically British subjects... Makes the GFA look like bedtime reading in places!!)

[DeLorean]

is RTE not showing highlights of tue nights game????? i cant see it in any tv listings other than its on sky sports??????

There are highlights on RTÉ 2 at 23:45 for an hour.

The game is being televised live on the Welsh channel S4/C, which is channel 134 on the Sky package.

[Closed Account]

Fats in for Treacy
http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/fahey-joins-ireland-squad-2525856.html

Given
Westwood

Coleman Dunne St Ledger Clark
S Kelly Wilson O'Shea O'Dea

Lawrence Whelan Green Duff
Walters Gibson McCarthy Fahey

Keane Doyle
Long Best

[geysir]

Ordinarily Lee Camp would be eligible for both the FAI and IFA.

However there has been quite a long hold up in Lee Camp's switch to the IFA. Either he doesn't have an Irish born granny or perhaps his previous registration with the English FA is stopping the switch due to Camp's current age.
Age doesn't matter. Much more likely, if there is a delay, that the paperwork is with FIFA.

[EalingGreen]

The eligibility rule does not refer to jurisdiction, it refers to territory. My mistake - I was too lazy to check. However, the error is not material (see below).


As I already pointed out, the eligibility rule that allows Alex Bruce (who has a belfast born grandmother) to qualify for us in 2006, has remained unchanged/unaltered.I do not know how exactly AB qualified for ROI (nor do you, btw), but from memory, I don't think the IFA formally objected to AB playing for them (though they did take the opportunity to raise questions etc).



Annex 901 became article 17c , eligible if - 'His grandmother or grandfather was born on the territory of the relevant Association'
As it stands now, Camp qualifies for both the FAI and IFA. Having a grandparent born anywhere on the island, qualifies as being born on the territory from which the FAI can draw upon.Dear oh dear, Geysir. Did you really think that you could slip so artificial a construction at that (highlighted) past me?

Players like Gibson etc do not qualify to represent the FAI because of the "territory" from which they come, it is because of their Nationality i.e. they automatically qualify for Irish citizenship from birth, thereby satisfying Article 15. But anyone born anywhere in the world who has a parent born in Ireland also has automatic right to Irish citizenship from birth. Therefore by your logic/construction, the whole of the rest of the world must constitute "FAI territory", since it is "territory from which the FAI can draw upon".


Also the eminent Howard Wells has already made noise to FIFA in 2007 about Alex Bruce.
"This is an issue to do with player eligibility according to FIFA's own rules. It is a principle that needs to be resolved based on player eligibility, so that it is applied consistently.
"Alex Bruce is a player we have asked FIFA and the Republic to clarify but it is not about individuals, it is about the principle."Seeing as how in the past you have composed countless posts decrying the knowledge and authority of Wells etc, it is a bit rich for you now to cite him as supporting your case...

Anyhow, it is frankly ridiculous for you to claim that NI constitutes the "territory of the FAI" and deep down, I suspect even you know that.

For if it were not so, why do eg Derry City continue to be members of the IFA, even despite their being "Irish" and playing in the LOI etc? Why would any player who transfers from an NI club to an ROI club (or v.v.) be required to obtain international clearance? Why, should the IFA eg impose a complete playing ban on a player for a serious offence, may that ban also be extended worldwide, including in ROI? Why, when a player in NI is disciplined by the IFA, may he not appeal to the FAI? Why, if it constitutes its "own territory", doesn't the FAI organise within NI? Why does FIFA make separate development grants to the FAI and IFA? Why do FIFA/UEFA permit referees from NI to officiate at games between ROI and Scotland/Wales/England, for instance? Why isn't the FAI entitled to automatic representation on the IFAB, whilst the IFA is?

P.S. The above questions are rhetorical, therefore I do not expect you to strain language and logic in order to come up with dung like "the territory from which the FAI can draw upon" in reply...

[ifk101]

Age doesn't matter. Much more likely, if there is a delay, that the paperwork is with FIFA.

It does matter if you are switching association.

Anyways the IFA have been asked to provide extra material to support Camp's eligibility. What that extra material is I do not know, one can only speculate.

[Not Brazil]

It does matter if you are switching association.


No, it doesn't - you need to re-visit the current Statutes as you appear to be confused.

[geysir]

It does matter if you are switching association.

Anyways the IFA have been asked to provide extra material to support Camp's eligibility. What that extra material is I do not know, one can only speculate.

The age restriction for switching associations has been lifted in June 2009
'Change of association (art. 18 of the Regulations Governing the Application of the FIFA Statutes)
58% of the Congress members approved an amendment to the current article. So far, players eligible to change associations in order to play for another national team could only do so until their 21st birthday. The Congress has now decided to lift this age limit, but has maintained all the other provisions of art. 18.'

[EalingGreen]

Ordinarily Lee Camp would be eligible for both the FAI and IFA.Camp qualifies for NI by virtue of a Belfast-born grandfather. Assuming that the g/f was born post-1921, under which of FIFA's Articles would that mean he is eligible to represent the FAI? (And please don't insult everyones intelligence by repeating Geysir's effort, above).


However there has been quite a long hold up in Lee Camp's switch to the IFA. Either he doesn't have an Irish born granny or perhaps his previous registration with the English FA is stopping the switch due to Camp's current age.The FA has made it quite clear, to both player and IFA, that they have no interest/involvement/objection to his switching to the IFA.

There are two reasons why it is taking so long. First, following the removal of the ban on over-21's switching Associations (Summer 2009?), there was a rush of applications from newly eligible players which seems to have overwhelmed the department at FIFA which deals with this. Indeed, they had to take emergency measures to fast-track players to play in the 2010 World Cup (eg one of the Boateng brothers switching from Germany to Ghana). This in turn seems to have led to the backlog in dealing with "non-urgent" applications which led eg to Shane Duffy having to wait longer than usual.

And with subsequent tournaments like the African and Asian Championships in recent months, it seems the backlog continues. Nonetheless, it was expected that Camp's clearance would ordinarily have come through by now, since he had lodged all the usual documentation with FIFA some time ago.

However, now that FIFA have finally got round to scrutinising his application, they are now querying why his grandfather's surname is different from his own. Of course, this is because Camp's NI grandfather is on his maternal side (doh!), but they nonetheless demanded that Camp dig out his parents' marriage certificate and send it to FIFA before they will stamp the application.

This bureaucratic delay is intensely frustrating for all concerned, especially since with Taylor currently injured, he'd almost certainly have featured against Scotland next week. However, should he not be cleared in time for our Euro 2012 qualifiers at the end of March, then there should be Hell to pay, since that means it will have taken 6 months and considering it should be a straightforward one, with no other Association objecting etc, there could be no excuse.

If nothing else, those b a s tards at FIFA surely owe us one by now...

[paul_oshea]

deja vu...and here we go again :rolleyes:

[geysir]

Seeing as how in the past you have composed countless posts decrying the knowledge and authority of Wells etc, it is a bit rich for you now to cite him as supporting your case...
Again you demonstrate your chronic inability to understand the obvious.
I was not using Wells to support my case, I merely demonstrated that the legally inept IFA boss had already requested FIFA for clarification on Alex Bruce's eligibility.


Anyhow, it is frankly ridiculous for you to claim that NI constitutes the "territory of the FAI" and deep down, I suspect even you know that.
I don't claim that at all.
But under a definition of a territory that the FAI can draw its players from, then the Island of Ireland is that territory according to FIFA.
It is the territory, that by being born in, automatically qualifies one for Irish citizenship.


For if it were not so, why do eg Derry City continue to be members of the IFA, even despite their being "Irish" and playing in the LOI etc? Why would any player who transfers from an NI club to an ROI club (or v.v.) be required to obtain international clearance? Why, should the IFA eg impose a complete playing ban on a player for a serious offence, may that ban also be extended worldwide, including in ROI? Why, when a player in NI is disciplined by the IFA, may he not appeal to the FAI? Why, if it constitutes its "own territory", doesn't the FAI organise within NI? Why does FIFA make separate development grants to the FAI and IFA? Why do FIFA/UEFA permit referees from NI to officiate at games between ROI and Scotland/Wales/England, for instance? Why isn't the FAI entitled to automatic representation on the IFAB, whilst the IFA is?
Irrelevant to the international eligibility issue as most of us already aware, especially the ones who have a basic understanding of the eligibility rules.
Deal with the obvious eligibility of Bruce, already scrutinised by FIFA at the behest of the IFA and work it out from there.
Rational approach above waffle and surmises, any day.

[geysir]

deja vu...and here we go again :rolleyes:

You can rest your laurels on the eligibility issue after your accurate prediction of the FIFA compromise, way back in the day.

[Not Brazil]

Deal with the obvious eligibility of Bruce, already scrutinised by FIFA at the behest of the IFA and work it out from there.
Rational approach above waffle and surmises, any day.

Indeed. Take a leaf out of your own book, and have a look at the eligibility Statutes, as they applied when Bruce was making decisions.

Such a rational approach may lead you to conclude that you were previously talking out of your hoop.

[Charlie Darwin]

Players like Gibson etc do not qualify to represent the FAI because of the "territory" from which they come, it is because of their Nationality i.e. they automatically qualify for Irish citizenship from birth, thereby satisfying Article 15. But anyone born anywhere in the world who has a parent born in Ireland also has automatic right to Irish citizenship from birth. Therefore by your logic/construction, the whole of the rest of the world must constitute "FAI territory", since it is "territory from which the FAI can draw upon".
But does Gibson's nationality not derive entirely from the territory in which he was born (notwithstanding certain discriminatory exemptions)?

[EalingGreen]

I don't claim that [i.e. that NI constitutes the "territory of the FAI"] at all.Well if you want to recruit players like Camp, then you will have to. For Article 17 requires just that, namely:

Any player who refers to art. 15 par.1 to assume a new nationality... ... shall be eligible to play for the new representative team only if he fulfils one of the following conditions:
(a ) He was born on the territory of the relevant Association;
(b ) His biological mother ot biological father was born on the territory of the relevant Association;
(c ) His grandfather or grandfather was born on the territory of the relevant Association;
(d ) He has lived continuously for at least five years after reaching the age of 18 on the territory of the relevant Association.

Players like Darron Gibson (born in Ireland) or Anton Rogers (son of someone born in Ireland) qualify for the FAI under Article 15, since they are automatically Irish citizens from birth. Camp is not automatically an Irish citizen, since a grandfather is not adequate to confer citizenship on him automatically at birth .

Of course, Camp could always apply for Irish citizenship and expect to be successful. But the fact of his having to apply means that he does not qualify under Article 15, as eg Gibson and Rogers do.

Consequently Camp would be "assuming a new Nationality", therefore he would need to satisfy the criteria of Article 17 (above). And by any rational reading of the language of Art.17, in Camp's case, his grandfather would have to have been born "on the territory of the relevant Association" for Camp to be eligible to represent the relevant Association (FAI).

So which is it, Geysir? Is NI within the "territory of the FAI" or is it not?


But under a definition of a territory that the FAI can draw its players from, then the Island of Ireland is that territory according to FIFA.
It is the territory, that by being born in, automatically qualifies one for Irish citizenship.
Where in FIFA's eligibility articles do they include the phrase "a territory that [an Association may] draw its players from"?

Be honest, in order to defend your claim, you were forced to make it up.

And I have to say, it wasn't even a very intelligent fabrication, either. For if you take eg England, Scotland, Holland and USA, those are all "territories" which the FAI "draws its players from", but that hardly means that any of them constitute the "territory of the relevant Association " [FAI], as per Article 17.

[geysir]

Indeed. Take a leaf out of your own book, and have a look at the eligibility Statutes, as they applied when Bruce was making decisions.

Such a rational approach may lead you to conclude that you were previously talking out of your hoop.
You are way too hasty, I have already referred to the old rule, annex 901 which is unchanged, now known as article 17.

Annex 901 became article 17 , 17c eligible if- 'His grandmother or grandfather was born on the territory of the relevant Association'
It goes without saying that he would have to acquire Irish nationality.
Changing associations from FA to FAI would then follow article 18, and the only change of note there is the lifting of the age restriction.

short edit.
The grandparent and parent are automatic Irish citizens. As I mentioned, the whole island is the relevant territory in nationality and eligibility speak.
We were confused by this before but the Bruce case can not be ignored. Not only are all Island born entitled to declare for the FAI but their descendants born abroad are entitled to declare.

[geysir]

Well if you want to recruit players like Camp, then you will have to. For Article 17 requires just that, namely:

Any player who refers to art. 15 par.1 to assume a new nationality... ... shall be eligible to play for the new representative team only if he fulfils one of the following conditions:
(a ) He was born on the territory of the relevant Association;
(b ) His biological mother ot biological father was born on the territory of the relevant Association;
(c ) His grandfather or grandfather was born on the territory of the relevant Association;
(d ) He has lived continuously for at least five years after reaching the age of 18 on the territory of the relevant Association.

Players like Darron Gibson (born in Ireland) or Anton Rogers (son of someone born in Ireland) qualify for the FAI under Article 15, since they are automatically Irish citizens from birth. Camp is not automatically an Irish citizen, since a grandfather is not adequate to confer citizenship on him automatically at birth .

Of course, Camp could always apply for Irish citizenship and expect to be successful. But the fact of his having to apply means that he does not qualify under Article 15, as eg Gibson and Rogers do.

Consequently Camp would be "assuming a new Nationality", therefore he would need to satisfy the criteria of Article 17 (above). And by any rational reading of the language of Art.17, in Camp's case, his grandfather would have to have been born "on the territory of the relevant Association" for Camp to be eligible to represent the relevant Association (FAI).

So which is it, Geysir? Is NI within the "territory of the FAI" or is it not?

Where in FIFA's eligibility articles do they include the phrase "a territory that [an Association may] draw its players from"?

Be honest, in order to defend your claim, you were forced to make it up.

And I have to say, it wasn't even a very intelligent fabrication, either. For if you take eg England, Scotland, Holland and USA, those are all "territories" which the FAI "draws its players from", but that hardly means that any of them constitute the "territory of the relevant Association " [FAI], as per Article 17.

It is beyond even me to explain in termsthat you can understand. Considering that you have not been right on any important aspect of eligibility that requires objective analysis in over a few hundred posts on the matter, I hereby request you to cease cluttering up this forum with your waffle which has been proven to one and all, time and time again, to be total nonsense.

[Not Brazil]

You are way too hasty, I have already referred to the old rule, annex 901 which is unchanged, now known as article 17.

Annex 901 became article 17c , eligible if- 'His grandmother or grandfather was born on the territory of the relevant Association'
It goes without saying that he would have to acquire Irish nationality.


Northern Ireland is the territory of the Irish Football Association, not the Football Association Of Ireland.

You need to think again about how Bruce was eligible to play for the Football Association of Ireland.

[EalingGreen]

But does Gibson's nationality not derive entirely from the territory in which he was born (notwithstanding certain discriminatory exemptions)?Yes it does, but for FIFA's eligibility purposes, that's just a by-the-by.

The point is that Gibson qualifies to represent the FAI because he is automatically an Irish citizen from birth, and thereby complies with Article 15:

1. Any person holding a permanent nationality that is not dependant on residence in a certain country is eligible to play for the representative teams of the Association of that country.

But people born anywhere else in the world to an Irish-born parent also hold "a permanent nationality that is not dependant on residence in a certain country". Consequently they are also entitled to represent the FAI.

However, people like Camp, who only have an Irish-born grandparent, do not automatically qualify for Irish citizenship from birth, therefore may not rely upon Article 15.

Of course, they may apply for Irish citizenship, but assuming they are successful, they then have to satisfy Article 17, which requires them either to have been born in the FAI's territory, have a parent/grandfather who was so born, or have themselves have resided in that territory (for five years after turning 18).

And Lee Camp does not meet any of those qualifying requirements.

[EalingGreen]

It is beyond even me to explain in termsthat you can understand. Considering that you have not been right on any important aspect of eligibility that requires objective analysis in over a few hundred posts on the matter, I hereby request you to cease cluttering up this forum with your waffle which has been proven to one and all, time and time again, to be total nonsense.Simple question: Do you consider that Northern Ireland constitutes "the territory of the FAI"?

Yes or No?

[paul_oshea]

"But people born anywhere else in the world to an Irish-born parent also hold "a permanent nationality that is not dependant on residence in a certain country". Consequently they are also entitled to represent the FAI.

However, people like Camp, who only have an Irish-born grandparent, do not automatically qualify for Irish citizenship from birth, therefore may not rely upon Article 15."

How does it differentiate between a parent and grandparent, Irish citizenship is available to anyone who has a grandparent of Irish nationality.

Just a quick answer please :D

[Not Brazil]

Irish citizenship is available to anyone who has a grandparent of Irish nationality.


Is that automatic?

[EalingGreen]

"But people born anywhere else in the world to an Irish-born parent also hold "a permanent nationality that is not dependant on residence in a certain country". Consequently they are also entitled to represent the FAI.

However, people like Camp, who only have an Irish-born grandparent, do not automatically qualify for Irish citizenship from birth, therefore may not rely upon Article 15."

How does it differentiate between a parent and grandparent, Irish citizenship is available to anyone who has a grandparent of Irish nationality.

Just a quick answer please :DSomeone who is born in Ireland, or who has a parent who was born in Ireland, is automatically an Irish citizen from birth.

Whereas someone who only has a grandparent who was born in Ireland has to apply for Irish citizenship i.e. it is not automatic.

The former category are therefore eligible to represent the FAI under Art.15, whereas the latter are not.

Rather, this latter category must rely upon Art.17 ("Acquisition of a new nationality"), which as well as requiring the relevant Nationality, also demands birth in the territory, or a parent/grandparent born in the territory, or residence in the territory.

Camp is British. He may apply for Irish citizenship in addition. But should he do so successfully, he will be deemed by FIFA to be "acquiring a new nationality", in which case he will also need to meet one of the four additional requirements.

So unless you construe NI to be "the territory of the FAI", then he does not do so.

Consequently it must be incumbent upon those claiming that Camp is eligible to represent the FAI to demonstrate how Belfast (NI) is part of the territory of the FAI (or cite some other Article under which Camp may be eligible).

That's as concisely as I believe it can be explained.

Unless you're Geysir...

[EalingGreen]

Is that automatic?No.

See http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Information%20Leaflet%20No.%201%20-%20140709.pdf/Files/Information%20Leaflet%20No.%201%20-%20140709.pdf

[Not Brazil]

No.

See http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Information%20Leaflet%20No.%201%20-%20140709.pdf/Files/Information%20Leaflet%20No.%20120-20140709.pdf

So there is a "differentiation" between parent and grandparent.:o

[paul_oshea]

Is that automatic?

What do you mean by automatic, that they don't have to apply passport photos and proof to get their passport?

"If you were born outside Ireland to an Irish citizen who was himself or herself born outside Ireland, and any of your grandparents was born in Ireland, then you are entitled to become an Irish citizen"

So although I think your meaning of automatic is different to above, if you have an irish grandparent who was born on the island of ireland and their children "HOLDS" Irish nationality, i would gather this means has an irish passport then you are automatically entitled to it.

"If the parent through whom you derive Irish citizenship was not alive at the time of your birth, but would have been an Irish citizen if alive at that time, you are also an Irish citizen"

Again this must go back a generation(or 2) so if one had a grandparent who died, as long as their father/mother acquired irish citizenship - by the above means, then you could too.

"Apply" surely means registration, as proof. Surely its still technically qualifed as automatic because you are once registered. no? Its not like you have to prove residency or any other criteria other than register your birth, to automatically qualify for Irish citizenship.

[Not Brazil]

What do you mean by automatic, that they don't have to apply passport photos and proof to get their passport?

"If you were born outside Ireland to an Irish citizen who was himself or herself born outside Ireland, and any of your grandparents was born in Ireland, then you are entitled to become an Irish citizen"

So although I think your meaning of automatic is different to above, if you have an irish grandparent who was born on the island of ireland and their children "HOLDS" Irish nationality, i would gather this means has an irish passport then you are automatically entitled to it.

"If the parent through whom you derive Irish citizenship was not alive at the time of your birth, but would have been an Irish citizen if alive at that time, you are also an Irish citizen"

Again this must go back a generation(or 2) so if one had a grandparent who died, as long as their father/mother acquired irish citizenship - by the above means, then you could too.

"Apply" surely means registration, as proof. Surely its still technically qualifed as automatic because you are once registered. no? Its not like you have to prove residency or any other criteria other than register your birth, to automatically qualify for Irish citizenship.

Don't know what passports has to do with it, but anyway....

So, someone born outside of Ireland, who had a granny or granda born in Ireland, can APPLY to become a Citizen of the Republic Of Ireland ie. it is not a birthright, and automatic?

[paul_oshea]

Well to have citizenship gives you the right to a passport, but that was just trying to decipher between what automatic means.

But what exactly does automatic mean? Look at the box:

A born in the island of Ireland entitled to Irish citizenship or an Irish citizen.
C child of B and a grandchild of A, born outside the island of Ireland entitled to Irish citizenship

What exactly does entitlement mean? Purely from an administration point of view, how could Ireland just keep issusing citizenship, how could it keep track. To me entitlement means very little, it just ensures that the onus is not on the irish state, and therefore no administration on their side, but allows an individual automatic citizenship on proof of the above criteria. Automatic meaning no criteria in terms of residency etc.

I'm not sure automatic/entitlement matter here really.

[EalingGreen]

So there is a "differentiation" between parent and grandparent.:oIndeed.

And that's not me saying so, it is the Irish Government.

But no doubt Geysir* will question their competence to have determined thus.


* - Hopefully after he has addressed my own simple Yes/No question from earlier...

[EalingGreen]

What do you mean by automatic, that they don't have to apply passport photos and proof to get their passport?

"If you were born outside Ireland to an Irish citizen who was himself or herself born outside Ireland, and any of your grandparents was born in Ireland, then you are entitled to become an Irish citizen"

So although I think your meaning of automatic is different to above, if you have an irish grandparent who was born on the island of ireland and their children "HOLDS" Irish nationality, i would gather this means has an irish passport then you are automatically entitled to it.

"If the parent through whom you derive Irish citizenship was not alive at the time of your birth, but would have been an Irish citizen if alive at that time, you are also an Irish citizen"

Again this must go back a generation(or 2) so if one had a grandparent who died, as long as their father/mother acquired irish citizenship - by the above means, then you could too.

"Apply" surely means registration, as proof. Surely its still technically qualifed as automatic because you are once registered. no? Its not like you have to prove residency or any other criteria other than register your birth, to automatically qualify for Irish citizenship.The key phrase in that is "entitled to become".

Someone who is so-entitled cannot logically already be an Irish national. Therefore he/she must apply to become one. And since such a person will almost certainly already have some sort of nationality*, then any application to become an Irish national must mean, in footballing terms, that they are "acquiring a new nationality" (Art.17).

And for the purposes of Art.17, unless the player himself, or a parent/grandparent, was born "in the territory of the relevant Association", then Art.17 does not help him.

In which case, the only way someone like Camp could be eligible to play for the ROI would be if the FAI could demonstrate that Belfast is part of "their territory".

Back to you, Paul.


* - I know some people are stateless, but Camp is undeniably British.

[Predator]

So, the Celtic Cup eh?

Don't we already have a thread for discussion of the eligibility rules?

[geysir]

Northern Ireland is the territory of the Irish Football Association, not the Football Association Of Ireland.
NI is a region/a territory which is under the total control of the IFA.


You need to think again about how Bruce was eligible to play for the Football Association of Ireland.
I have already thought about it. He has qualified because he qualified for Irish nationality based on his NI born grandparent.

[tetsujin1979]

So, the Celtic Cup eh?

Don't we already have a thread for discussion of the eligibility rules?
doesn't every thread get sucked into that particular black hole?

[shakermaker1982]

Predictions of our starting 11 on Tuesday?

Given

O'Shea Dunne St Ledger Clark

Lawrence Green Whelan Duff

Keane Doyle

I'd like to see Coleman and McCarthy play from the start but the rest of the team picks itself. Might be worth giving Westwood a run out as well. I think we should be able to beat an under strength Welsh team (no Bellamy or Bale). 2-1.

[geysir]

Probably only Clark will start but I'd hope the outcome will be, that by time we line out against Macedonia, Trap will have the required confidence to start all 3 (Clark Coleman and McCarthy).

[Sullivinho]

Predictions of our starting 11 on Tuesday?

Given

O'Shea Dunne St Ledger Clark

Lawrence Green Whelan Duff

Keane Doyle

Ditto. I'd expect any deviation from that to be the result of someone pulling out. Big opportunity for Clark. I'd also like to see Coleman, McCarthy and Long. 2-1 for me too.

[gastric]

doesn't every thread get sucked into that particular black hole?

You're not completely right Tets, the James McCarthy thread has turned into a discussion about how to pronounce Bonner and a history of Packie's exploits! I do love this site!

[tetsujin1979]

Predictions of our starting 11 on Tuesday?
I think it'll be


Given

Coleman Dunne St Ledger O'Shea

Lawrence Gibson Whelan Duff

Keane Doyle

McCarthy on for Gibson
Fahey to come on for either winger
Long to come on for Keane

[Charlie Darwin]

Probably only Clark will start but I'd hope the outcome will be, that by time we line out against Macedonia, Trap will have the required confidence to start all 3 (Clark Coleman and McCarthy).
I seriously doubt he'd even consider Coleman or McCarthy for the next qualifier. He'll only make changes in a position he feels there's a weakness, and there's only the possibility that he considers left back a weakness right now.

[rebelmusic]

He's strongly hinted it will be Clark on as left full. Which means probably O'Shea at RB. With Bale out and the lack of wingers in the squad - possibly he's considering Coleman for RW?

I think he may try McCarthy in the no.10 as he's suggested. Then again, of the 3 we want to see Clark Coleman and McCarhy - we'll probably only see Clark :P

[Predator]

I wouldn't be surprised to see McCarthy start this game, nor would it surprise me if St Ledger was dropped. Coleman's impressive form will hopefully be rewarded with at least the guts of a half and perhaps both Keane and Doyle will make way for Long and Best in the second half. I would like to see how Wilson performs in midfield, but for some reason I think Trap will stick with his seeming favourites.

[Closed Account]

I wouldn't be suprised to see this:

Given

Kelly Dunne St Ledger O'Shea

Lawrence Green Whelan Duff

Doyle Keane
That way, if he does spring any suprises, then I might actually get excited
about this game.

A million to one shot he starts this

Westwood

Coleman Wilson Clark O'Dea

Gibson McCarthy Fahey

Walters Best Long

[rebelmusic]

Westwood

Coleman Wilson Clark O'Dea

Gibson McCarthy Fahey

Walters Best Long

That team would be eaten alive. Wilson hasn't played CB in ages, O'Dea is the worst LB option we have and Gibson/Walters/Best are far down the pecking order where they should be

[Closed Account]

Westwood

Coleman Wilson Clark O'Dea

Gibson McCarthy Fahey

Walters Best Long

That team would be eaten alive. Wilson hasn't played CB in ages, O'Dea is the worst LB option we have and Gibson/Walters/Best are far down the pecking order where they should be
Duh, I know that. I just made a team out of the 11 players not in the other 11 i named because its the most unlikely thing you'd see Trapattoni do.

[rebelmusic]

Fair enough, just odd to post it then!

[EalingGreen]

NI is a region/a territory which is under the total control of the IFA. In footballing terms, NI is actually a country, or nation, since it plays international football, but no matter.

What I'm more interested in is your answer to the question which you've already dodged three times (post #'s 419, 424, 433), namely whether you consider NI to be the territory of the FAI.

To make it easy for you, I've supplied the only two possible answers for you to confirm/delete as appropriate:

1. Yes

2. No