Celtic Cup thread

[ArdeeBhoy]

Given the size of the small crowds expected, unless the FAI drastically change their admission policy, there'll be no problem getting in!
And know there'll be rakes of spare tickets floating about, even presuming the people made it there to offload them in the first place.....

[shakermaker1982]

Rather harsh on Harry, on three counts.

First, it is Harry who has turned Bale from a "promising young Full Back" as recently as 18 months ago, to a top quality Left Midfielder today.
Second, if you were in Harry's position i.e. "must-win" games following thick-and-fast since August, would you have the balls to leave him out? Anyhow, from what I've seen, Bale's current injury only occurred at the beginning of this month - he was full of running before then.
Third, having bought Pienaar as soon as he could in the window, Harry will be able to rest Bale.

I wouldn't give HR too much credit. Sure he only played Bale at LM because of necessity due to injuries at Spurs last season and was so so close to sending him to Nottm Forest. If Doughty (Forest chairman) and the acquisition panel weren't so careful with their pounds then Bale could be a Forest player!!

Spurs have to realise that you cannot play the likes of Van Der Vaart and Bale every game if your serious about competiting on all fronts. The only top top player I've seen who doesn't really get rested nowadays and still looks the business is Messi. Anyway I'm going off track here talking about Spurs.


Possible, I suppose, though 17 days is not a lot of time, even for a minor injury. It's only a back twinge. A decent osteopath will have him sorted in a couple of days!


I could well be wrong, but I think Coleman (and other youngsters like McCarthy?) are unlucky "victims" of Trap's overall strategy for the team, on two counts.

First, it must be fairly obvious to Trap that the basic quality of the players at his disposal is inferior to what he's normally used to in Italy etc. Moreover, he hasn't got the time to work with them in training to make them better players, as he would with a club.

Second, there is a decent chance that he won't still be in charge after 2012, whether voluntarily or otherwise. Therefore he's not going to waste time developing youngsters like Coleman, for the sake of his own successor.

Consequently, he may be hoping that he can compensate for his core players' basic deficiencies by consistently sticking to the same, familiar selection/formation/tactics etc which have always served him well in the past.

Of course, one manager's "consistency" is another's "rigidity"....

The Trap is the original Mr rigid, hence there are a good few of us on here now starting to pull our hair out. It seems you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.

[paul_oshea]

I think EG said earlier that one managers consistency is anothers rigid(icy :D)ness, i dont think thats necessarily true. Not just in the case of trap, but you can be consistent and not be rigid, its how you are consistent that matters. Trap is not rigid, he has made changes when he needed to, but he hasn't necessarily made the right ones, or more importantly change his style and formation to accomodate the better players we have. He is rigid with his game-plan and formation of only setting us out as a 4-4-2 no matter what.

But he has not been consistent in some of the decisions( or at least what he has said to the media for the reasoning of these decisions). Not fitting mccarthy into the system is something i brought up ages ago with reasons, Trap yet hasn't done it, but he has been consistent in that its because he doesn't seem to think he fits into the 4-4-2, even if he says to the media that he would change the gameplan if we had the right players, again another form of incosistency, saying one thing and then not doing it. But not playing coleman, and almost to the same extent clark really doesn't fit in with the 1 point of consistency he has shown re: the former.

Trap could yet prove all us doubters wrong and play an attacking 4-5-1(4-3-3) against macedonia or he could wait until the last day for example when it really is too late and we play brilliantly, but alas too late - im not saying 4-5-1(4-3-3) is the saving grace, just an example of change that we may well need.

[Stuttgart88]

If Trap did play 4-4-3 I'd definitely say he was mad.

The McCarthy thing is genuinely worrying though.

[paul_oshea]

what are you on about stutts?

I mean a 4-5-1 for example that can slip into a 4-3-3 on counter attack, but as i said just an example.

There is a lot more than just Mccarthy.

Lets not get started on his point about the leetle details and making sure we concede less(from silly mistakes/lack of concentration/not sticking to gameplan etc etc) or straight away after scoring....

[tricky_colour]

OK I can't be arsed to find the squad in the thread so here it is again.

Given (Manchester City),
Westwood (Coventry),

O'Shea (Manchester Utd),
Clark (Aston Villa),
Coleman (Everton),
Dunne (Aston Villa),
St Ledger (Preston),
Foley (Wolves),
Kilbane (Huddersfield),
Kelly (Fulham),
O'Dea (Ipswich),
McShane (Hull),

Wilson (Stoke),
Gibson (Manchester Utd),
Whelan (Stoke),
Green (Derby),
Lawrence (Portsmouth),
Hunt (Wolves),
McGeady (Spartak Moscow),
Treacy (Preston),
Duff (Fulham),
Fahey (Birmingham City),

Keane (Tottenham),
Walters (Stoke),
Doyle (Wolves),
Long (Reading),
Keogh (Cardiff),
Best (Newcastle),
Stokes (Celtic).

[SkStu]

rigid(icy :D)ness.

rigidity... (sorry, it was really bothering me!)

[Noelys Guitar]

Hopefully some journo contacts McCarthy and Martinez over the coming days to find out what is going on. If McCarthy says he is OK to play and would like to have been selected (I have read/heard nothing that suggests otherwise) then we have a big problem.

[irishfan86]

I think the only people who should be talking to McCarthy are members of the FAI or his Irish teammates.

McCarthy has put up with a lot to declare for Ireland and I think he will stick by his word and play for us. A journalist annoying him with a question he's probably been asked a million times is not necessary.

I think this is a simple miscommunication/lack of communication issue, which is in itself inexcusable on Trap/the FAI's part, but if McCarthy is going to leave us on the back of one exclusion when he's just returning from injury, he's probably not the sort of player any team would want.

I've heard interviews with him and he seems very mature and intelligent. Hopefully he'll get a run of games with his club, and you never know who'll pull out before the game. Maybe if a player or two gets injured he'll get drafted in and all will be well.

[Stuttgart88]

what are you on about stutts?Just simple mathematics Paul :)

[Stuttgart88]

McCarthy aside, the key now is to pick a useful team for Wales.

A back 4 of Foley-Dunne-O'Shea-Clark would go a long way to appeasing my disappointment about McCarthy, as would the selection of at least one of Wilson and Fahey in central midfield, maybe even both, and a bold selection upfront.

Kilbane and Green in the starting XI would exasperate me.

[Razors left peg]

Trap has already said that Robbie will start because he needs a confidence boost and that Coleman will be a sub. I think we are looking at more of the same with very little learned to be honest

[ArdeeBhoy]

So much for the Celtic Cup being a 'useful exercise' for us....
We might as well go back to arguing about the politics of the event.
;)
Joke.

Though that would be more interesting!

[Sullivinho]

Trap has already said that Robbie will start because he needs a confidence boost and that Coleman will be a sub. I think we are looking at more of the same with very little learned to be honest

Very disappointed if this is true and I have no reason to doubt you. I have a lot of time for Liam Lawrence but a cameo in a friendly is an insult to the progress Coleman has made. And if we're talking a sub appearance, it'l be late in the second half. I remember seeing an interview with him before the Norway game and he spoke like a player who had been guaranteed some game time. Trap's substitutions on the night undermined that and made him look like a right dreamer in retrospect.

[Razors left peg]

Very disappointed if this is true and I have no reason to doubt you. I have a lot of time for Liam Lawrence but a cameo in a friendly is an insult to the progress Coleman has made. And if we're talking a sub appearance, it'l be late in the second half. I remember seeing an interview with him before the Norway game and he spoke like a player who had been guaranteed some game time. Trap's substitutions on the night undermined that and made him look like a right dreamer in retrospect.

I dont have the quote as I read it in the Star but if was from his press conference the other day. He was saying something along the lines that Coleman is a right back and he didnt wanna start him against Bale so maybe O Shea would start there and we will see Coleman later in the game

[Noelys Guitar]

I dont have the quote as I read it in the Star but if was from his press conference the other day. He was saying something along the lines that Coleman is a right back and he didnt wanna start him against Bale so maybe O Shea would start there and we will see Coleman later in the game

Thats exactly what he said. And Clark has a hamstring injury so not sure if he is going to join up with the squad. In reference to what Irishfan was saying I don't believe McCarthy has any intention of switching back to Scotland. I want a journo to ask him why did Trap not pick you. Hes not injured. Hes playing well an scoring. Why wait until a team with Green and Whelan messes up against Macedonia. This should be brought to a head now. It is a bizarre squad selection again and we are heading into swiss at home territory under Mick. Who honestly believes that the Irish team that starts against Macedonia will not feature Green, Whelan, Kilbane and Keane as captain?

[Wolfie]

Appears a lot of us are losing patience - Trapps next team selection will be a pivotal moment of his tenure as manager.

I think many of us want to see Clarke, Long, Coleman starting. I'd like to see Treacy again also.

There's a growing frustration amongst even the more moderate posters that the best team is not being given a chance to develop.

[Supreme feet]

Back in May, it was apparent that the Paris '09 XI would be sufficient as a base for the Irish squad to build on. Throw in Cunningham at LB and gradually bring other players like McCarthy and Meyler into the set-up. It all seemed so simple, and Trap looked like he knew what he was doing. He included McCarthy, Cunningham and Meyler in the May friendly squad, and I looked forward to a smooth, easy transition.

However, since then, Given, Whelan and Keane have stagnated at their clubs, Lawrence has dropped a division, St. Ledger hasn't progressed at club level, and Andrews has been injured and may not get his place back with Blackburn. If the six I've mentioned were playing week-in-week-out, there wouldn't be too many issues. Trap has been very unlucky about what's happened to our experienced, senior players at their clubs. He can't help if players are dropped, or get injured. However, by persisting with Green, Gibson, Kilbane, O'Dea and McShane in the squad, he makes himself very hard to defend at times.

Trap's now in a situation where people will be baying for his blood unless he throws at least four hitherto-uncapped, under-23 players into the starting XI against Macedonia. And he won't do that - it'd be a huge risk for any international manager. McCarthy was quite progressive, but he always kept faith with Carsley, Holland, Breen, Gary Kelly etc, when fans and journos were crying for their heads. When we last qualified for the WC, it was a very experienced team with an average age of about 28 or 29, as it is for most teams who qualify for anything. However, youth seems like the only option now, since such misery surrounds our first-choice team. The Paris XI, playing regularly for their clubs, even with Kilbane at LB, would be good enough to beat Macedonia home and away, but unfortunately, that team seems to have fallen apart through injury and club circumstances, and Trap is being asked by the fans to build a new team mid-way through a campaign. A team with Cunningham, Clarke, Duffy, Coleman, Meyler and McCarthy playing together is mouth-watering for the future, but for Macedonia away in June?

A common-sense blend of youth and experience is the answer, and how well Trap manages that situation will define his tenure as Irish manager.

[Stuttgart88]

Great post Supreme Feet, but the timing of "how well Trap manages that situation" is critical. The home defeat and the careless manner in which we failed to kill off Slovakia leaves no margin for error in the next two games. We wasted an opportunity to try one or two fresh options in November and the smart money says that the Wales game will see a similar opportunity slip by. That means that come Macedonia no real plan B will have been looked at, though Long & Fahey have played themselves into the reckoning I suppose.

It is true that the Given, Keane, Andrews, Cunningham & Whelan situations were impossible to have foreseen, as was McCarthy's injury. You're also right that 5 or 6 youngsters playing against Macedonia is too risky, but players like Foley & Coleman are screaming for a decent look. I'm pretty sure Marc Wilson can run around and try in vain to tackle just as well as Green did against Russia.

[Noelys Guitar]

Back in May, it was apparent that the Paris '09 XI would be sufficient as a base for the Irish squad to build on. Throw in Cunningham at LB and gradually bring other players like McCarthy and Meyler into the set-up. It all seemed so simple, and Trap looked like he knew what he was doing. He included McCarthy, Cunningham and Meyler in the May friendly squad, and I looked forward to a smooth, easy transition.

However, since then, Given, Whelan and Keane have stagnated at their clubs, Lawrence has dropped a division, St. Ledger hasn't progressed at club level, and Andrews has been injured and may not get his place back with Blackburn. If the six I've mentioned were playing week-in-week-out, there wouldn't be too many issues. Trap has been very unlucky about what's happened to our experienced, senior players at their clubs. He can't help if players are dropped, or get injured. However, by persisting with Green, Gibson, Kilbane, O'Dea and McShane in the squad, he makes himself very hard to defend at times. Trap's now in a situation where people will be baying for his blood unless he throws at least four hitherto-uncapped, under-23 players into the starting XI against Macedonia. And he won't do that - it'd be a huge risk for any international manager. McCarthy was quite progressive, but he always kept faith with Carsley, Holland, Breen, Gary Kelly etc, when fans and journos were crying for their heads. When we last qualified for the WC, it was a very experienced team with an average age of about 28 or 29, as it is for most teams who qualify for anything. However, youth seems like the only option now, since such misery surrounds our first-choice team. The Paris XI, playing regularly for their clubs, even with Kilbane at LB, would be good enough to beat Macedonia home and away, but unfortunately, that team seems to have fallen apart through injury and club circumstances, and Trap is being asked by the fans to build a new team mid-way through a campaign. A team with Cunningham, Clarke, Duffy, Coleman, Meyler and McCarthy playing together is mouth-watering for the future, but for Macedonia away in June?

A common-sense blend of youth and experience is the answer, and how well Trap manages that situation will define his tenure as Irish manager.

We are playing Macedonia at home on the 26th of March. That is our next competitive match. And Trap is not being asked to build a team halfway through this campaign. He has had ample opportunities to play the young players mentioned but has either refused to pick them or not play them when they have been called up (and I'm talking about previous friendly games). We are talking here about players playing week in week out in the Premiership and Trap is overlooking them for players not playing for their clubs, or playing in the championship or 1st division. The list is endless. Its like what Giles said about Staunton's selections. "Turn the team sheet upside down and it would make more sense".

[Closed Account]

Okay, its been 24 hours since the squad announcement. Have we all got the "Why did he call him up and not him?" out of our system. Its a shame James McCarthy isn't in because I enjoy watching him play, but C'est la vie, nobody should of been surprised. What the manager does and what the fans want have been very different for quite some time and it won't change until at least 2012.

A 29 man squad for 1 full day of training and an unimportant match is far too many players. Have you tried training with that many people and trying to get a semblance of what your best 11 is? Its chaos. What Trapattoni has done is take the lazy option and not drop anyone and even recalled Keogh and Stokes. He's probably hoping/assuming a few will drop out. He'll work with his core group of 14-15 players and the rest will be largely ignored and will only be there for someone for them to play against. People who impress may be given substitute chances.

Unfortunately Trap has decided that what can, and what will be achieved by this quick get together is very little. Don't expect anything from the lineup, don't expect all 3 of Wilson, Clark, and Coleman to get debuts. We can assume from this apparent attitude that the gameplan/lineup isn't going to change much for the Macedonia game and with this in mind:

My Starting X1

Given
O'Shea Dunne St Ledger Clark
Duff Whelan Fahey Hunt
Keane Doyle
Subs: Coleman for Duff, Wilson for Whelan, Westwood for Given, Foley for O'Shea, Long for Keane, Walters/Best for Doyle.

Lawrence/Green/Kilbane will probably play though. Anything less than six points against Macedonia and there will be no reason to keep Trapattoni as manager.

[SkStu]

well said Noely. Trap is in a situation of his own making. You cant expect to go through 2 campaigns using the same 22-26 players. Its certain that your first XI will evolve ove time and the fact that, for the most part, Trap's hasnt is quite damning.

[Supreme feet]

My Starting X1

Given
O'Shea Dunne St Ledger Clark
Duff Whelan Fahey Hunt
Keane Doyle
Subs: Coleman for Duff, Wilson for Whelan, Westwood for Given, Foley for O'Shea, Long for Keane, Walters/Best for Doyle.



That's actually not a bad team and subs, and should be enough to get the six points if it's retained for the competitive games. Bring Andrews in instead of Whelan for the March game if he gets back playing regularly and Whelan isn't. Add McCarthy to the fold for the Uruguay, NI and Scotland games, bring in Meyler and Cunningham, and I think it's a strong core of a squad with plenty of options. The only 'Oh God' selection Trap is likely to make is Kilbane ahead of Clark, but if Clark plays well against Wales, you never know. As long as Green doesn't play again, and we have CMs in competitive games who are playing regularly, I'll be satisfied.

[irishfan86]

Lawrence/Green/Kilbane will probably play though. Anything less than six points against Macedonia and there will be no reason to keep Trapattoni as manager.

Don't think Lawrence deserves to be put alongside Green and Kilbane as a potentially poor choice. He's played very well for us.

[Closed Account]

Don't think Lawrence deserves to be put alongside Green and Kilbane as a potentially poor choice. He's played very well for us.
It was a poor association and I'd be quite happy with two from Duff/Hunt/Lawrence (I cannot stand McGeady's style of football, so don't try to convince me otherwise).
Lawrence, Green and Kilbane are all first choice to Giovanni comparted to my selection though.

[TrapAPony]

Wishful thinking I know but this is who I would have chosen if everyone was fit :


Given

Foley O'Shea Dunne Clark

Coleman McCarthy Meyler Duff

Keane Doyle


Subs:

Westwood/Kenny

Kelly/O'Dea St.Ledger/O'Brien Wilson/Duffy Cunningham/Ward

Lawrence/McGeady Fahey/Andrews Whelan/Gibson Hunt/A.Reid

Long/Stokes Walters/Best


Edit :
The rest : Wes Hoolahan, Barry Maguire, Stephen O'Halloran.....and Rory Delap, Steven Reid, Stephen Carr, Stephen Ireland.

[SwanVsDalton]

The rest :

Barry Maguire, Wes Hoolahan.......... Rory Delap, Stephen Carr, Stephen Ireland, Steven Reid. There's is no need ever to have to resort to the likes of Keogh, McShane, Kilbane, Green, Sheridan etc. We have far better options.

I don't mind the thrust of your argument but I really don't buy this. Reid and Carr are retired, Ireland is unavailable for selection so forget about them. Hoolahan's just back in the Championship, Maguire doesn't get a regular start in the Dutch league and Delap not exactly the 'blood new players' attitude we're looking for. Regardless of the fact they don't match positionally, and McShane and Green not being international class, I don't see how they are 'better options.

A fit Stephen O'Halloran and a few more unearthed jems and we wouldn't be far off.

[TrapAPony]

I don't mind the thrust of your argument but I really don't buy this. Reid and Carr are retired, Ireland is unavailable for selection so forget about them. Hoolahan's just back in the Championship, Maguire doesn't get a regular start in the Dutch league and Delap not exactly the 'blood new players' attitude we're looking for. Regardless of the fact they don't match positionally, and McShane and Green not being international class, I don't see how they are 'better options.

A fit Stephen O'Halloran and a few more unearthed jems and we wouldn't be far off.

There are 33 half decent players mentioned above, more than enough than to resort to extremely mediocre players as Trap tends to do from time to time. That was my point.

PS. ''The rest'' wasn't mentioned for any reason other than to show what other Irish players, aside from the 33, that are playing at a decent standard.

[SwanVsDalton]

Fair nuff, point taken. I just get raggy when retired players are mentioned at all.

[seanfhear]

McCarthy aside, the key now is to pick a useful team for Wales.

A back 4 of Foley-Dunne-O'Shea-Clark would go a long way to appeasing my disappointment about McCarthy, as would the selection of at least one of Wilson and Fahey in central midfield, maybe even both, and a bold selection upfront.

Kilbane and Green in the starting XI would exasperate me.
I would like to see that back four and certainly Wilson deserves his chance. I would loved to have seen McCarthy and Meyler but unfortunately for various reasons thats not too be. I am not sure if Fahey fits into Traps system except as a sub if we are chasing a game. (I might be wrong about that !)

[ArdeeBhoy]

There are 33 half decent players mentioned above, more than enough than to resort to extremely mediocre players as Trap tends to do from time to time. That was my point.

PS. Got rid of the rest. You're complicating things. They weren't mentioned for any other reason than to show what other Irish players, aside from the 33, that are playing at a decent standard.

Should have left them down, at this stage, even some of the oldies could add to the pool in the short-term. But people, well Trap mainly, are too blinkered to see that.

[TrapAPony]

Should have left them down, at this stage, even some of the oldies could add to the pool in the short-term. But people, well Trap mainly, are too blinkered to see that.


Done.

[SwanVsDalton]

Should have left them down, at this stage, even some of the oldies could add to the pool in the short-term. But people, well Trap mainly, are too blinkered to see that.

Too blinkered to see that two retired players and Stephen 'Aye Right' Ireland arn't available for selection?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Hardly. And surely 'blinkered' to ignore all your potential playing pool....

Only a fool would make such a generalisation.

[gastric]

The attached article seems to say that McCarthy might get called into the squad because of injuries. Don't know if Trap is thinking along the same lines though.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/martinez-hails-scoring-return-of-irish-playmaker-mccarthy-2512715.html

[Closed Account]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/wales/8285605/Gary-Speed-to-name-Gareth-Bale-in-Wales-squad.html

Under the rules of the Carling Nations Cup, which also features Northern Ireland and Scotland, the four nations must name 23-man squads, but will be allowed to use just six substitutes.
Okay, so the 29 man squad is preliminary. So we've to lose 6 players.
I'd drop 2 from D, M and F's, (O'Dea, McShane, Treacy, Green, Keogh, Stokes)

[shakermaker1982]

According to that article Green is likely to play against Wales!!!

[Lionel Ritchie]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/wales/8285605/Gary-Speed-to-name-Gareth-Bale-in-Wales-squad.html

Okay, so the 29 man squad is preliminary. So we've to lose 6 players.
I'd drop 2 from D, M and F's, (O'Dea, McShane, Treacy, Green, Keogh, Stokes)

Unless they get injured there isn't a chance in hell of Green or McShane being dropped

[EalingGreen]

The attached article seems to say that McCarthy might get called into the squad because of injuries. Don't know if Trap is thinking along the same lines though.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/martinez-hails-scoring-return-of-irish-playmaker-mccarthy-2512715.html"He [Trap] is free to chop and change before the squad gather in Dublin on February 6, and if McCarthy has several more games under his belt by that juncture, then it would represent an opportunity to further his international experience etc"

McCarthy will be doing well to get "several" more games - Wigan have only 3 fixtures before Feb.6th, the last of them the day before. And considering Wigan are in a relegation dogfight (so will be reluctant to release him) and Trap already has to lose 7 outfield players before he has a spare place, it's hard to see McCarthy getting his chance this time around (imo).

(Fwiw, as an NI fan I'd be happy for him to miss out against us in May, as well.

[Wolfie]

Back in May, it was apparent that the Paris '09 XI would be sufficient as a base for the Irish squad to build on. Throw in Cunningham at LB and gradually bring other players like McCarthy and Meyler into the set-up. It all seemed so simple, and Trap looked like he knew what he was doing. He included McCarthy, Cunningham and Meyler in the May friendly squad, and I looked forward to a smooth, easy transition.

However, since then, Given, Whelan and Keane have stagnated at their clubs, Lawrence has dropped a division, St. Ledger hasn't progressed at club level, and Andrews has been injured and may not get his place back with Blackburn. If the six I've mentioned were playing week-in-week-out, there wouldn't be too many issues. Trap has been very unlucky about what's happened to our experienced, senior players at their clubs. He can't help if players are dropped, or get injured. However, by persisting with Green, Gibson, Kilbane, O'Dea and McShane in the squad, he makes himself very hard to defend at times.

Trap's now in a situation where people will be baying for his blood unless he throws at least four hitherto-uncapped, under-23 players into the starting XI against Macedonia. And he won't do that - it'd be a huge risk for any international manager. McCarthy was quite progressive, but he always kept faith with Carsley, Holland, Breen, Gary Kelly etc, when fans and journos were crying for their heads. When we last qualified for the WC, it was a very experienced team with an average age of about 28 or 29, as it is for most teams who qualify for anything. However, youth seems like the only option now, since such misery surrounds our first-choice team. The Paris XI, playing regularly for their clubs, even with Kilbane at LB, would be good enough to beat Macedonia home and away, but unfortunately, that team seems to have fallen apart through injury and club circumstances, and Trap is being asked by the fans to build a new team mid-way through a campaign. A team with Cunningham, Clarke, Duffy, Coleman, Meyler and McCarthy playing together is mouth-watering for the future, but for Macedonia away in June?

A common-sense blend of youth and experience is the answer, and how well Trap manages that situation will define his tenure as Irish manager.

Some good points. I wouldn't advocate an experimental line up for the Macedonia game either.

However, I'd like to see the likes of Coleman, Treacy, McCarthy, Clarke get a run in the Welsh game and other Celtic Cup games.

While Trapp hasn't been averse to introducing new players - its been in fits and starts and his retention of certain players are creating a feeling of inertia eg, many feel Kilbane is past it, questions over McShane's ability at International level etc etc.

The blooding of new players under Trapp must always be viewed under the context of his employment in the first place. Many of us had been driven demented with Stauntons continual reference to working towards some unknown date in "the future". A series of campaigns appeared to be written off in Stans mind with a view to the future.

Therefore, Trapp was hired as partly a reaction to this. He was hired with the intention of effectively immediate qualification and picked his squads to achieve that end.

I'm not saying this approach was right - its just whats happened.

[ifk101]

Player selection isn't the real problem issue for me. My concern is how predictable we are. When Trapattoni came in the focus was on organisation and retention of possession. This was evident in the friendly away to Norway. However we have progressively become one-dimensional since the start of Trapattoni's tenure to the extent that our tactics can be summarised as simply long balls to Doyle. If Trapattoni wants to go the long ball that's his choice as manager but for that tactic to be effective the two central midfielder need to press forward. Currently our central midfielders' instructions are to sit in front of the back for and nothing more.

[SwanVsDalton]

The rest : Wes Hoolahan, Barry Maguire, Stephen O'Halloran.....and Rory Delap, Steven Reid, Stephen Carr, Stephen Ireland.


Should have left them down, at this stage, even some of the oldies could add to the pool in the short-term. But people, well Trap mainly, are too blinkered to see that.


Hardly. And surely 'blinkered' to ignore all your potential playing pool....

Only a fool would make such a generalisation.

Oh right so when you said 'oldies' you meant long-in-the-tooth footballers such as Barry Maguire, Stephen O'Halloran and Wes Hoolahan? No need for fool - you're the one who referred to TrapAPony's list in particular...

[Stuttgart88]

While Trapp hasn't been averse to introducing new players - its been in fits and starts and his retention of certain players are creating a feeling of inertia eg, many feel Kilbane is past it, questions over McShane's ability at International level etc etc.True, and as Tets and others have pointed out Trap has made new introductions and in the cases of St Ledger, Andrews, Best and Green, has promoted to first team action after only one or two looks. It's also worth pointimg out that, off the top of my head, McShane hasn't figured on the pitch since Brazil 12 months ago, and right now Kilbane remains in the no. 3 shirt because nobody currently fit has made any proper claim to that position. That's not Trap's fault. Would people here really prefer Ward over KK against Macedonia? I wouldn't.

There are many reasons to be frustrated by Trap's inertia - Foley, the lingering McCarthy issue, his view on Coleman - but it has barely been mentioned that Stokes' good form has been rewarded with a call up. He was criticised for leaving him out when he was playing less well.

My current concerns about Trap are:
He hasn't been creative enough with regard to plugging certain holes
We haven't made any progress cutting out the sloppy goals that cost us points last time out. In fact it's worse.
We're too cagey and it has now been shown that our "two banks of four" / catenaccio attempts at sitting off isn't working. We have executed this very badly in friendlies like Australia, Norway and Poland and at least once competitively - Russia. We used to be hard to score against, now it's pretty easy to score against us.

[paul_oshea]

(Fwiw, as an NI fan I'd be happy for him to miss out against us in May, as well.

That has to be taken as a complement.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Oh right so when you said 'oldies' you meant long-in-the-tooth footballers such as Barry Maguire, Stephen O'Halloran and Wes Hoolahan? No need for fool - you're the one who referred to TrapAPony's list in particular...

Actually I didn't mean them specifically. But then guess you never bothered to read the original post I was responding to??

[SwanVsDalton]

Sigh. Don't know why I'm bothering but maybe you'd care to review the 'original post' that you maintained TrapAPony should leave intact...(paraphrasing in the middle for clarity)


The rest : Wes Hoolahan, Barry Maguire, Stephen O'Halloran.....and Rory Delap, Steven Reid, Stephen Carr, Stephen Ireland.


Got rid of ''The rest''


Should have left them down, at this stage, even some of the oldies could add to the pool in the short-term.


But Reid, Carr and Ireland arn't available for selection...


Naw don't mean them. Fool.


Oh right so.. you meant long-in-the-tooth footballers such as Barry Maguire, Stephen O'Halloran and Wes Hoolahan?


Actually I didn't mean them specifically. But then guess you never bothered to read the original post I was responding to??

So you were either referring to Rory Delap from TrapAPony's 'the rest' or you didn't mean them at all and were misleadingly referring to something totally different when you said 'should have left them down'.

Maybe cyber-hearing my Nordie accent has enraged you past the ability to comprehend...:confused:
(Edit - for fear of starting this again let me clarify I DON'T mean your anti-north, just you seem to get a little frayed about it's existence.)

[ArdeeBhoy]

No, it's just you being a pedant. And the only annoying thing remotely 'Nordie' is yet another example of a closed mind, on this issue. But to be fair, it's not just exclusive to that geographical area!
;)

[Noelys Guitar]

True, and as Tets and others have pointed out Trap has made new introductions and in the cases of St Ledger, Andrews, Best and Green, has promoted to first team action after only one or two looks. It's also worth pointimg out that, off the top of my head, McShane hasn't figured on the pitch since Brazil 12 months ago, and right now Kilbane remains in the no. 3 shirt because nobody currently fit has made any proper claim to that position. That's not Trap's fault. Would people here really prefer Ward over KK against Macedonia? I wouldn't.

There are many reasons to be frustrated by Trap's inertia - Foley, the lingering McCarthy issue, his view on Coleman - but it has barely been mentioned that Stokes' good form has been rewarded with a call up. He was criticised for leaving him out when he was playing less well.

[QUOTE=Stuttgart88;1445331]My current concerns about Trap are:
He hasn't been creative enough with regard to plugging certain holes
We haven't made any progress cutting out the sloppy goals that cost us points last time out. In fact it's worse.
We're too cagey and it has now been shown that our "two banks of four" / catenaccio attempts at sitting off isn't working. We have executed this very badly in friendlies like Australia, Norway and Poland and at least once competitively - Russia. We used to be hard to score against, now it's pretty easy to score against us.

Spot on. But can he change his tactics? Johnny Giles' last year in charge of the Irish team reminds me a lot of what is happening now under Trap. The team began to suffocate under Giles' system. And Giles simply could not change his tactics. He persisted with the slow build up play and Givens up front when it was clear to everyone other than Johnny that this style of play did not suit us and Givens was years past his best. I really hope I'm wrong but if Trap persists with the Green, Whelan, Andrews 2of 3 in midfield and Kilbane at LB then we won't beat Macedonia let alone qualify. I'll bet players like Dunne, O'Shea and others are questioning the tactics and selections after the last two competitive games.

[cornflakes]

Welsh Squad to play us.
No Bale or Bellamy, isnt a great squad.
We're far better on paper anyway

J Brown (Blackburn), W Hennessey (Wolves), B Myhill (West Brom); D Collins (Stoke), J Collins (Aston Villa), N Eardley (Blackpool), D Gabbidon (West Ham), C Gunter (Nottingham Forest), C Morgan (Preston), S Ricketts (Bolton), A Williams (Swansea); A Crofts (Norwich), D Edwards (Wolves), A King (Leicester), J Ledley (Celtic), A Ramsey (Cardiff), D Vaughan (Blackpool); S Church (Reading), R Earnshaw (Nottingham Forest), C Evans (Sheffield United), F Eastwood (Coventry), S Morison (Millwall), H Robson-Kanu (Reading).

[SwanVsDalton]

Welsh Squad to play us.
No Bale or Bellamy, isnt a great squad.
We're far better on paper anyway

J Brown (Blackburn), W Hennessey (Wolves), B Myhill (West Brom); D Collins (Stoke), J Collins (Aston Villa), N Eardley (Blackpool), D Gabbidon (West Ham), C Gunter (Nottingham Forest), C Morgan (Preston), S Ricketts (Bolton), A Williams (Swansea); A Crofts (Norwich), D Edwards (Wolves), A King (Leicester), J Ledley (Celtic), A Ramsey (Cardiff), D Vaughan (Blackpool); S Church (Reading), R Earnshaw (Nottingham Forest), C Evans (Sheffield United), F Eastwood (Coventry), S Morison (Millwall), H Robson-Kanu (Reading).

Never noticed before but their midfield of King, Ledley, Ramsey and Vaughan are potentially very, very good. Ramsey's fitness an issue obviously, and Ledley's not set the world on fire in Scotland, but would be a more creative CM than us.

We'd have similar potential with McCarthy and Meyler involved I suppose...