Celtic Cup thread

[ifk101]

That'll be a polite "No Thank You" from the vast majority of the Northern Ireland fanbase :-)

Now...if the breakaway Association wishes to participate, in addition to the original Irish Football Association, I'm sure it would add to the spectacle.

If the IFA fanbase doesn't want to support an All-Ireland team, that is their decision and a decision that should be respected by the FAI fan base.

However the British Home Championship in its most original format was a competition between the four distinct nations of the then United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. Those four "home" nations were England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales. If the English FA are looking to organise a tournament between the four home nations, the four footballing associations that represent those four nations should be involved. Following the partition of the island of Ireland, the IFA assumed the mantle of representing the Irish home nation in the Championship. This perhaps is linked to the fact that the IFA is the first established Irish footballing association, fielded their team under the guise of Ireland for 50 odd years after the split with the FAI, and that the IFA have fielded teams with an All-Ireland representation (even long after the establishment and regardless of the FAI).

There are five options open to the English FA as they set about organising the make-up of their tournament;
(a) run a four team competition with the Ireland team as a co-operation between the FAI and IFA.
(b) run a four team competition between the four associations that represent the four distinct nations of England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales.
(c) run a five team tournament that includes both an IFA and FAI team.
(d) run a four team tournament between the four founding associations of the tournament.
(e) realise this tournament will open up a can of worms that is best left alone.

Option (c) is the most likely outcome with option (e) running it a close second.

[Gather round]

I cannot honestly see your problem EG (or GR). Personally I would love to see all the people of Ireland and for that matter all the people of Northern Ireland being given a one off opportunity to get behind the same football team

Morning TP. Look, at risk of repeating myself, I don't care if this proposed tournament commemorates the 50th anniversary of England winning something, the martyrs of Easter 1916 or the stadium tour to raise funds for Bonehead's latest tax avoidance scam. We ain't interested in merging with your football team. Don't you ever get bored of this nonsense?

PM for the non-Brazilian. Obrigado, Senhor.


Två små troll

You're funny.

Isn't there any reindeer clubbing on Svenska TV today?

[ifk101]

två små troll


Du menar att jag är "ett litet troll"? :bigsmile: Du får gärna förklara det, helst på svenska.

[ArdeeBhoy]

That'll be a polite "No Thank You" from the vast majority of the Northern Ireland fanbase :-)

Now...if the breakaway Association wishes to participate, in addition to the original Irish Football Association, I'm sure it would add to the spectacle.

But what about if we disbanded the FAI for the occasion and played as a UI team with all the games in Beal-feirste?
If it's that much of an issue....

TP did use the phrase "one off competition".

Is there really that much Paranoia or Control Freakery at work??

Especially, as you correctly identified elsewhere, recent correspondence has not helped your argument.

[Not Brazil]

But what about if we disbanded the FAI for the occasion and played as a UI team with all the games in Beal-feirste?
If it's that much of an issue....


No, Thank You :-)

[ArdeeBhoy]

Fair enough, I suppose.

Though if it was good enough for Messrs. Best, Dougan & Jennings....

[Not Brazil]

Fair enough, I suppose.

Though if it was good enough for Messrs. Best, Dougan & Jennings....

Anyone from Northern Ireland who wishes to declare for the Association picking from 32 Counties has the CHOICE nowadays to do so (subject to FIFA eligibilty criteria).

That leaves those who CHOOSE not to, to have the CHOICE to play for Northern Ireland.

No mergers thanks - not for one off tournaments, or any other time.

You're welcome to YOUR All Ireland team....I, and the vast majority of the Northern Ireland fanbase, will be supporting our team for many, many, years to come.

You really need to get over the fantasist notion of a singular Irish International team...it ain't happening.

It's all about CHOICE.:o

[osarusan]

But what about if we disbanded the FAI for the occasion....
In that case I'd like the competition to be a constant, never-ending occasion.

[third policeman]

Anyone from Northern Ireland who wishes to declare for the Association picking from 32 Counties has the CHOICE nowadays to do so (subject to FIFA eligibilty criteria).

That leaves those who CHOOSE not to, to have the CHOICE to play for Northern Ireland.

No mergers thanks - not for one off tournaments, or any other time.

You're welcome to YOUR All Ireland team....I, and the vast majority of the Northern Ireland fanbase, will be supporting our team for many, many, years to come.

You really need to get over the fantasist notion of a singular Irish International team...it ain't happening.

It's all about CHOICE.:o


Yeah, I'm all for choice too. It would be interesting to see what the majority of people in NI thought about the idea of a single team for this competition. I have a hunch that they might be able to see the bigger picture and that the idea would be attractive to a lot of people and quite probably a lot of the players in both teams as well.. However, I think you are suggesting that it's the NI "fanbase" who should have a right of veto on this. Restricting the franchise to those people who by definition agree with your position is a wee bit undemocratic.. I genuinely wish you guys could take the blinkers off and be willing to give something a go, particularly when it clearly would not have any kind of knock on for other international competitions.

[Dodge]

Yeah, I'm all for choice too. It would be interesting to see what the majority of people in NI thought about the idea of a single team for this competition. I have a hunch that they might be able to see the bigger picture and that the idea would be attractive to a lot of people

I'd say the majority of people in the Republic would be against that side entering the British Home Championship. Works both way


No mergers thanks - not for one off tournaments, or any other time.


Geunuine question here, how do you feel about a possible GB team for the 2012 Olympics?

[Not Brazil]

I genuinely wish you guys could take the blinkers off and be willing to give something a go, particularly when it clearly would not have any kind of knock on for other international competitions.

I genuinely wish you would quit the fantasist nonsense.

I support Northern Ireland in International football...nobody else. Certainly not some cobbled together pretend All Ireland, token, team. Northern Ireland...first, last, and everything inbetween.

If you don't understand that, you're lost on the nuances of footballing passion.

It isn't happening, no matter how much you dream and dream about it - wake up, and get over it.

[Not Brazil]

Geunuine question here, how do you feel about a possible GB team for the 2012 Olympics?

Oppossed.

[Dodge]

Fair enough. Thanks for the reply

[third policeman]

I genuinely wish you would quit the fantasist nonsense.

I support Northern Ireland in International football...nobody else. Certainly not some cobbled together pretend All Ireland, token, team. Northern Ireland...first, last, and everything inbetween.

If you don't understand that, you're lost on the nuances of footballing passion.

It isn't happening, no matter how much you dream and dream about it - wake up, and get over it.

Just a bit weird that so many NI legends dont share your highly nuanced footballing passion.

[Gather round]

I think you are suggesting that it's the NI "fanbase" who should have a right of veto on this. Restricting the franchise to those people who by definition agree with your position is a wee bit undemocratic

Are you on drugs? Got it in one, it's the NI supporters who should decide whether the NI team gets, er, abolished. As for the bizarre franchise analogy, assorted NI-based RoI fans, ****-stirrers and random uninterested punters get a vote every time there's a real general, Assembly or Euro election. In none of which in living memory has the organisation of football teams been an issue. If you want to vote on the IFA, join a supporters' club or run for league treasurer or something.


I genuinely wish you guys could take the blinkers off and be willing to give something a go, particularly when it clearly would not have any kind of knock on for other international competitions

I genuinely wish you'd take your pretentious wind-ups elsewhere.


just a bit weird that so many NI legends dont share your highly nuanced footballing passion

If you're so impressed by what a couple of dead ex-players think, organise a seance and riff with them instead.


Geunuine question here, how do you feel about a possible GB team for the 2012 Olympics?

Also opposed. Effectively there'll be an England u-23 side. I daresay their press will have a go at drumming up interest next season, but at the moment no-one else seems interested bar Bale's agent.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Are you on drugs?
Presumably you are being, er, ironic here. ;)


it's the NI supporters who should decide whether the NI team gets, er, abolished.
Surely, it would be UEFA, FIFA & the IFA in that order??
The fans would come a long way down, if they were at all consulted. No matter how many banners EG dreamt up....


As for the bizarre franchise analogy, assorted NI-based RoI fans, ****-stirrers and random uninterested punters get a vote every time there's a real general, Assembly or Euro election. In none of which in living memory has the organisation of football teams been an issue.
Not that bizarre, just that as you may have noticed, in the last 50 years or so, the very political existence of the North has been under question. So minor issues like sports teams supported by half its population would be rather down the agenda!
Just be grateful Ian never offered it to Gerry....


I genuinely wish you'd take your pretentious wind-ups elsewhere.
Rather a strong whiff of Hypocrisy here. If not complete double-standards.


If you're so impressed by what a couple of dead ex-players think, organise a seance and riff with them instead.
Well they did actually play for the team, so guessing their views would be rather more valid, even now.
After all a Dutchman of questionable sexuality has managed to exert his influence over the North for more than 300 years, after he's departed his mortal coil.

Lastly on the Olympics, they were discussing this on the PL preview recently and they reported a Mr.Brunt was interested in playing, when the idea was suggested by a reporter....

[EalingGreen]

The British Home Championship actually if we are going to take the pedantic route. But revealing that you would highlight that.Really?

Next time you're in Belfast, why not take a wee dander out to Windsor Avenue, call in at the IFA, and take a look at what it actually says on the trophy?

[EalingGreen]

Actually for a one off competition it sounds like a good idea. The original Home Internationals featured a single "Ireland" team, so it would be a fitting way of honouring the common footballing heritage of the IFA and FAI. So long as there is no suggestion or expectation that this would be a harbinger of merger, I cannot honestly see your problem EG (or GR). Personally I would love to see all the people of Ireland and for that matter all the people of Northern Ireland being given a one off opportunity to get behind the same football team.The forthcoming London Olympics in 2012 offers the people (or football fans, at any rate) of NI a one-off opportunity to get behind a united football team, too.

My response* to Seb Coe and his offer of a United Kingdom team is the same as it is to you and your offer of a United Ireland team.


* - If you need a clue, it's two words, the second of which is "Off!" Oh, and the first word is "F u c k" (in case you're still wondering).

[The Fly]

My response* to Seb Coe and his offer of a United Kingdom team is the same as it is to you and your offer of a United Ireland team.


* - If you need a clue, it's two words, the second of which is "Off!" Oh, and the first word is "F u c k" (in case you're still wondering).

Just say Never! Never! Never! ;)

[gustavo]

Can we get back on topic please?

[EalingGreen]

If the IFA fanbase doesn't want to support an All-Ireland team, that is their decision and a decision that should be respected by the FAI fan base.Thank You. (And it's not just the fanbase, btw, it's also the people who play and administer the game in NI, too).

Any chance you could stop there?


However the British Home Championship in its most original format was a competition between the four distinct nations of the then United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. Those four "home" nations were England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales. If the English FA are looking to organise a tournament between the four home nations, the four footballing associations that represent those four nations should be involved. Following the partition of the island of Ireland, the IFA assumed the mantle of representing the Irish home nation in the Championship. This perhaps is linked to the fact that the IFA is the first established Irish footballing association, fielded their team under the guise of Ireland for 50 odd years after the split with the FAI, and that the IFA have fielded teams with an All-Ireland representation (even long after the establishment and regardless of the FAI). Obviously not, then. Oh well.


There are five options open to the English FA as they set about organising the make-up of their tournament;
(a) run a four team competition with the Ireland team as a co-operation between the FAI and IFA.
(b) run a four team competition between the four associations that represent the four distinct nations of England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales.
(c) run a five team tournament that includes both an IFA and FAI team.
(d) run a four team tournament between the four founding associations of the tournament.
(e) realise this tournament will open up a can of worms that is best left alone.

Option (c) is the most likely outcome with option (e) running it a close second.I might have guessed something like this was coming...

Anyhow, if you are going to speculate on what might/might not happen, you would be advised to get your basic premises right, at least.

First, the BC was not a competiton between "the four nations etc", it was a competition between the representative teams of the four Associations. (And speaking of "representative teams", up until 1950, the IFA's team was drawn from the whole of Ireland, afterwards it was drawn only from NI)

Second, any such tournament is not the property ("theirs") of the FA to organise. Instead, it will be a collaboration between the four British Associations, who will decide between them.

Finally, if the FA doesn't like what the others agree, it is for them to withdraw (as they did with the BC in 1984), or decline to enter (as they did with the Carling Nations Cup). Similarly, it is for any of the other three Associations to decline to participate (just as they all did with "Team GB" for the 2012 London Olympics).

Anyhow, if the four Associations should decide to play each other in 2013 (or whenever), that may properly be termed a revival of the (former) British Championship and it would be appropriate (imo) for the old trophy, currently in the possession of the IFA, to be up for grabs.

If, however, they decided also to invite a fifth Association (namely the FAI), then whatever else, it could NOT be considered to be a revival of the former BC, it would have to be called something else.

As a traditionalist, I would prefer to see the former; also because it would have the side-effect of excluding the (cash-strapped) FAI from participating in a potentially lucrative money-spinner. And a four team/six match tournament might be more likely to be repeated every two or four years(?) than a 5 team/10 match tournament, which I suspect could only be a one-off, due to fixture congestion etc.

That said, if they should come up with a "Five Nations", I would still support NI's participation in it, so long as it wasn't being hosted by the FAI.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Surely this is exactly 'on topic' ??

Even Delaney admitted the CC concept is 'contentious'.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Next time you're in Belfast, why not take a wee dander out to Windsor Avenue, call in at the IFA, and take a look at what it actually says on the trophy?

Isn't that trophy actually in the Hampden, er, trophy room....

[Not Brazil]

Isn't that trophy actually in the Hampden, er, trophy room....

Er, no.

Having lent the Jocks the trophy for display in their museum at Hampden, the IFA, as reigning Champions, got it back in 2005 to be proudly displayed at Windsor Avenue. It remains in Windsor Avenue, just as EG stated.

[SwanVsDalton]

Er, no.

Having lent the Jocks the trophy for display in their museum at Hampden, the IFA, as reigning Champions, got it back in 2005 to be proudly displayed at Windsor Avenue. It remains in Windsor Avenue, just as EG stated.

Propped up beside NI's Tidiest Office 2007 plaque and Darron Gibson's birth certificate.

[Not Brazil]

Propped up beside NI's Tidiest Office 2007 plaque

;)

You've obviously paid a visit.

Deary me - it's a shocker for tidiness;)

[EalingGreen]

Propped up beside NI's Tidiest Office 2007 plaque and Darron Gibson's birth certificate."Father: Unknown"

[geysir]

Second, any such tournament is not the property ("theirs") of the FA to organise. Instead, it will be a collaboration between the four British Associations, who will decide between them.
Freudian slip I would presume :D or do you really believe the IFA to be one of the 4 British Associations, even if there are only 3.

[Not Brazil]

Freudian slip I would presume :D or do you really believe the IFA to be one of the 4 British Associations, even if there are only 3.

You may check that "Freudian Slip" out with FIFA in their Statute Definitions.

British Associations: the four Associations in the United Kingdom – The Football Association, The Scottish Football Association, The Football Association of Wales and The Irish Football Association (Northern Ireland).

If your not that hot on numbers, we can do A, B, Cs tomorrow?

[EalingGreen]

Freudian slip I would presume :D or do you really believe the IFA to be one of the 4 British Associations, even if there are only 3.I trust you've seen Not Brazil's reply - and been suitably embarrassed...;)

Anyhow, you're a Republick of Oireland fan, surely if you can have 33 teams in a 32-team World Cup Finals, why shouldn't it be possible to fit four Associations into three? :D

[The Fly]

Freudian slip I would presume :D or do you really believe the IFA to be one of the 4 British Associations, even if there are only 3.

The IFA is deemed a British Association by FIFA.


edit: oops! I hadn't scrolled down to see NB's reply.

[The Fly]

"Father: Unknown"

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/3968/tumbleweed004gi3.gif

[tetsujin1979]

"Father: Unknown"
that's low

[Dodge]

"Father: Unknown"

And yet we know his religion...

[boovidge]

Can we get back on topic please?

Nope. it's round 72 of Not Brazil, Ealing Green and Gather Round vs Ardeebhoy

*Spoiler alert*

nobody wins.

[Gather round]

Nope. it's round 72 of Not Brazil, Ealing Green and Gather Round vs Ardeebhoy

*Spoiler alert*

nobody wins

Don't be like that, Boo. I'm just waiting for you to suggest a venue for our pre-match pint.

[gastric]

Is it just me who now lives 12000 kms from the centre of my universe, but I really couldn't care less about the game or who wins? Possibly is a win more important to NI as we have have kidnapped all of their players? I am not trying to be controversial, but I would appreciate others' views. Normally I watch every game hoping we win , but due to the political aspect of this game I really don't care less.

[Junior]

Second, any such tournament is not the property ("theirs") of the FA to organise. Instead, it will be a collaboration between the four British Associations, who will decide between them.

Perhaps.

Or perhaps it will be more along the lines of....."Its our birthday, Its our party, we are hosting that party and you can all either come and enjoy the bit of jelly and ice cream you are given or feck off and we wont have a party at all - I couldnt care less either way" (I/Our being the FA for the avoidance of doubt).

[Gather round]

.....

[Gather round]

Possibly is a win more important to NI as we have have kidnapped all of their players?

A whopping one of them has appeared in your senior side so far. Let's not get carried away.

I expect winning the tournament would mean more to Northern Ireland and Wales, because expectations are generally lower. That said, RoI have qualified for one of the last eight tournaments, Scotland none of the last six. Either would be delighted to win it. Obviously you have an advantage as the (relative) form side with three home games.


Normally I watch every game hoping we win , but due to the political aspect of this game I really don't care less

It's international football against your neighbors, so bound to be at least a bit political. Would you be equally uninterested if they were qualifiers against England and NI?


Or perhaps it will be more along the lines of....."Its our birthday, Its our party, we are hosting that party and you can all either come and enjoy the bit of jelly and ice cream you are given or feck off and we wont have a party at all - I couldnt care less either way" (I/Our being the FA for the avoidance of doubt)

I doubt the English FA would do that- they need the money. The Home Nations will be cheaper than Brazil, Germany and Nigeria or likely alternatives.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Was that really worth saying twice? Especially given most of it's pointless waffle.

Beyond those who can be actually bothered to attend (and probably only The Tartan Army will bring even the slightest joy to the occasion), nobody else really cares.
It's a sad reflection of the current Ireland team that we have rather more important games v.Macedonia to worry about than this sh*t. If only, out of the 4 teams competing, we're the only one with even a slight chance of making the play-offs.
These are a pointless distraction.

[Junior]

I doubt the English FA would do that- they need the money. The Home Nations will be cheaper than Brazil, Germany and Nigeria or likely alternatives.

Maybe. I forget the reasons for the FA declining to be part of the 'Celtic Cup' (or whatever the original idea name was). I think its discussed earlier in the thread, wasn't it something to do with more glamourous/lucrative friendlies already being lined up? I think a tournament held at Wembley with England in it, would be a money spinner. The Aviva hosted one will just be a pain in the hole for all concerned, attendances will be poor and it will probably be deemed not to have been worth the effort - certainly from a commercial aspect, probably equally so from a footballing one.

[Gather round]

pointless waffle

For someone who doesn't care you have a lot to say on the tournament. All the Scots, Welsh and NI fans I know who are going are expecting to have fun.

No-one is suggesting this tournament is more important than Euro qualifiers. That would be true regardless of the strength of the four sides. All four of whom have at least a slight chance of making 2012, although I'll agree yours is the best of a bad bunch. The sad reflection on the RoI side is simply that they haven't qualified much in recent years. The friendlies are only a pointless distraction if you would prefer either a) alternative friendlies with even less 'edge', or b) no games at all. Begging the question, do you actually want to watch regular international football? Remember that teams who don't qualify and shun friendlies play on average only 10 games per tournament, or only four in a finals year.


The Aviva hosted one will just be a pain in the hole for all concerned, attendances will be poor and it will probably be deemed not to have been worth the effort - certainly from a commercial aspect, probably equally so from a footballing one

If you aren't interested, ignore the tournament. I'm looking forward, despite the eccentric organisation. Looking forward, mainly, to watching NI. I mean, even the 10 games we have to play this year isn't that many. How much money the FAI make, or how little the actual games resemble Barcelona v Inter, is really of much less interest to me.

I was replying to your kids' party analogy on the basis that the alternatives offered were c) a HI tournament or d) nothing at all. A third alternative of England playing other friendlies is plausible, but as a one-off I think they'd go for c) to mark their big year in 2013.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Mainly it's responding to the high drivel count on here.

As for 'fun', well not ever seen too much evidence of that from the usually dour Nordies & Welsh.
Not to mention Ireland's in the middle of its worst-ever recession, so even most of the diehards aren't interested/have better things to spend their cash on.
Also Wales & Scotland have no chance already of even the play-offs.

And if we are to indulge in 'meaningless' games to fill-up the calendar., then the occasional away friendly in a 'new' country, or someone we've not played in ages, would not go amiss.
However, there's far far too much football generally and starting to have sympathy with club managers who say international friendlies should be eventually abolished.

[Gather round]

And if we are to indulge in 'meaningless' games to fill-up the calendar., then the occasional away friendly in a 'new' country, or someone we've not played in ages, would not go amiss

Whatever floats your boat, although every exotic fixture away from home against better opposition obviously means that your opponent is playing a less exotic (or 'pointless', as you'd presumably call it) fixture at home. In practice almost everyone will play a mixture of home and away games against lesser and greater rivals.


However, there's far far too much football generally and starting to have sympathy with club managers who say international friendlies should be eventually abolished

The main source of too much football is domestic, not international. As you'll know from the recent holiday in English D3, everyone in it plays 46 league games plus three national cup competitions. A couple of years ago, Port Vale played as many cup ties (even without replays) as NI had full internationals.

[Dodge]

However, there's far far too much football generally and starting to have sympathy with club managers who say international friendlies should be eventually abolished.

The same managers who bring their players all over the world to play friendlies?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Yeap.

But that's more about money/profile....

And those games are usually even more pointless.

To reiterate, think these games are even more pointless than some international friendlies.

[Dodge]

Thats my point. YOu have sympathy for managers who complain about their players playing too much football, even though they make them play even more pointless games...

[gastric]

It's international football against your neighbors, so bound to be at least a bit political. Would you be equally uninterested if they were qualifiers against England and NI?


Gather Around, You trivialise my point. I am talking about so called supporters who send bullets through the post to players because of their beliefs and look upon people of different backgrounds as some sort of inferior species. If NI win it will be seen by many as some sort of political victory rather than a sporting victory. Therefore why then would I be interested.

[Not Brazil]

[B] If NI win it will be seen by many as some sort of political victory rather than a sporting victory. Therefore why then would I be interested.

Is the reverse true also...if the Republic Of Ireland win, it will be viewed by some as some kind of political victory?

I'm looking forward to a "local derby", with a bit of an edge. "Politics" will be far from my thoughts, win, lose or draw.

Bring it on.

Looking forward to seeing the new Aviva for the first time next month also - should be good banter with the skirt wearers pre and apres match also.