Celtic Cup thread

[ifk101]

What do these fans think their fabricated boycott can achieve?

No doubting that there is a realisation among those in the NI support capable of forming an opinion independently that the boycott cannot achieve anything and hence the lack of consensus you highlight. Put it this way, wouldn't an independent observer highlight FIFA as the "culprit" here? - after all the FAI is abiding by the relevant FIFA statutes and the IFA has no problem whatsoever in organising a senior tournament with the FAI. Wouldn't an independent observer be puzzled as to why NI supporter group(s) are directing their anger at the FAI but at the same time aren't boycotting FIFA and its regulated competitions? Isn't this all just coming across at petty whinging?

At the end of the day if the relevant NI supporter group(s) genuinely wanted to highlight the eligibility issue wouldn't withdrawing from FIFA competition or a blanket supporter ban of FIFA regulated games make more of a statement? And why isn't this happening?

[Stuttgart88]

I think basic human rights are to blame. Boycott human rights in all their guises.

[SwanVsDalton]

No, it was a shame this pathetic competition was ever proposed. Nothing against the Scots and Welsh fans and players mind.
Just the Irish, from all over the island!

Why just the Irish fans? Can't say I ever had much of a problem with the competition - I like seeing ROI play no matter what, and thought the games would be more worthwhile than totally meaningless friendlies. Though I can certainly see why people would have a problem with a lot of aspects of it (organisation, timing etc).

[DannyInvincible]

No doubting that there is a realisation among those in the NI support capable of forming an opinion independently that the boycott cannot achieve anything and hence the lack of consensus you highlight. Put it this way, wouldn't an independent observer highlight FIFA as the "culprit" here? - after all the FAI is abiding by the relevant FIFA statutes and the IFA has no problem whatsoever in organising a senior tournament with the FAI. Wouldn't an independent observer be puzzled as to why NI supporter group(s) are directing their anger at the FAI but at the same time aren't boycotting FIFA and its regulated competitions? Isn't this all just coming across at petty whinging?

At the end of the day if the relevant NI supporter group(s) genuinely wanted to highlight the eligibility issue wouldn't withdrawing from FIFA competition or a blanket supporter ban of FIFA regulated games make more of a statement? And why isn't this happening?

In spite of much being made of it on OWC, I can't envisage the AoNISC actually coming out and directly linking the boycott with them taking an issue over player eligibility as I suspect they acknowledge it would appear foolish and misdirected, amongst other things that wouldn't exactly aid their image within the nationalist community.

Their spokesperson, Gary McAllister, almost certainly under pressure from certain fans to twist mention of it into an interview as no grievance with the FAI had been aired publicly prior to this or before the potential to exploit the story was spotted by spindoctors on OWC, paid lip service to the "many NI fans being unhappy with what [they] perceive as poaching by the FAI of [their] young players" the other day on UTV, but only insofar as it has he felt it contributed to making the fixture a high-risk game with feelings running high, seemingly in admission that "balanced" security measures would have been justified: http://www.u.tv/Sport/NI-fans-urged-to-boycott-Dublin-matches/4e0e633f-7c14-4e4b-893d-dbb7a7e64fa5

Whether he somewhat contradicted himself there or not in an effort to mention it in passing, I'm not sure, but it's interesting to note that he avoided saying the boycott was due to the eligibility issue.

[jbyrne]

thought the games would be more worthwhile than totally meaningless friendlies.

i agree with this. if ourselves and scotland are meeting sunday week for a winner takes all match it could be very enjoyable with a few thousand scots in the stadium also.

ok, there are some issues with timing, ticket prices etc but i for one was tired of an endless run of meaningless friendlies. maybe the upcoming NI and scot games might actually be watchable for once

[ifk101]

NAME CLUB

Jonathan Tuffey Inverness Caledonian Thistle
Alan Blayney Linfield
Lee Hodson Watford
Adam Thompson Watford
Gareth McAuley Ipswich Town
Ryan McGivern Manchester City
Colin Coates Crusaders
Craig Cathcart Blackpool
Niall McGinn Celtic
Sammy Clingan Coventry City
Oliver Norwood Manchester United
John Gorman Wolverhampton Wanderers
Josh Carson Ipswich Town
Steven Davis Rangers
Robert Garrett Linfield
Stuart Dallas Crusaders
Warren Feeney Oldham Athletic
Josh McQuoid Millwall
Liam Boyce Werder Bremen
Jordan Owens Crusaders

[DannyInvincible]

Scotland squad has also been announced by Craig Levein: http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/scottish_fa_news.cfm?page=128&newsID=7799


Craig Levein has named his squad for the remaining Carling Nations Cup matches. There are first call-ups for 19-year-old Celtic midfielder James Forrest, and defender Russell Martin of Norwich City, newly promoted to the English Premier League.

Squad in alphabetical order:

Charlie Adam (Blackpool)
Barry Bannan (Aston Villa)
Phil Bardsley (Sunderland)
Christophe Berra (Wolves)
Scott Brown (Celtic)
Gary Caldwell (Wigan Athletic)
Kris Commons (Celtic)
Stephen Crainey (Blackpool)
James Forrest (Celtic)
Matt Gilks (Blackpool)
Grant Hanley (Blackburn Rovers)
Craig Mackail-Smith (Peterborough)
Chris Maguire (Aberdeen)
Russell Martin (Norwich City)
James McArthur (Wigan Athletic)
Ross McCormack (Leeds United)
Allan McGregor (Rangers)
Kenny Miller (Bursaspor)
James Morrison (West Bromwich Albion)
Steven Naismith (Rangers)
Barry Robson (Middlesbrough)
Iain Turner (Everton)
Steven Whittaker (Rangers)
Danny Wilson (Liverpool)

[ifk101]

The NI squad looks extremely weak on paper. Would be disappointed if we don't win that game regardless of what team we field.

Scotland game should be more of a challenge.

[DannyInvincible]

NAME CLUB

Jonathan Tuffey Inverness Caledonian Thistle
Alan Blayney Linfield
Lee Hodson Watford
Adam Thompson Watford
Gareth McAuley Ipswich Town
Ryan McGivern Manchester City
Colin Coates Crusaders
Craig Cathcart Blackpool
Niall McGinn Celtic
Sammy Clingan Coventry City
Oliver Norwood Manchester United
John Gorman Wolverhampton Wanderers
Josh Carson Ipswich Town
Steven Davis Rangers
Robert Garrett Linfield
Stuart Dallas Crusaders
Warren Feeney Oldham Athletic
Josh McQuoid Millwall
Liam Boyce Werder Bremen
Jordan Owens Crusaders

No place for Paddy McCourt after scoring against Motherwell on Sunday yet a place for McGinn? Is that surprising? McCourt was in their squads for the Scotland, Serbia and Slovenia games. Maybe Celtic have held him back for the Scottish Cup final or something. Has McGinn fallen off the radar at Celtic of late?

Otherwise, it does look like quite a weak squad.

Also, I believe we're to wear our home jersey for the game against NI and the new black alternative kit for the Scotland game.

[Not Brazil]

No place for Paddy McCourt after scoring against Motherwell on Sunday yet a place for McGinn? Is that surprising?

Is Paddy McCourt getting married soon? I've heard that's the reason for his non inclusion.

[DannyInvincible]

Is Paddy McCourt getting married soon? I've heard that's the reason for his non inclusion.

I should hope not; he's yet to send me an invite.

[DannyInvincible]

I've had a peep on OWC and it appears McCourt is getting married that day so that's the reason for his exclusion.

Convenient, that; probably just didn't want to have to suffer the disappointment of having to watch his fellow countrymen singing his national anthem from the opposing side. ;)

[boovidge]

NAME CLUB

Jonathan Tuffey Inverness Caledonian Thistle
Alan Blayney Linfield
Lee Hodson Watford
Adam Thompson Watford
Gareth McAuley Ipswich Town
Ryan McGivern Manchester City
Colin Coates Crusaders
Craig Cathcart Blackpool
Niall McGinn Celtic
Sammy Clingan Coventry City
Oliver Norwood Manchester United
John Gorman Wolverhampton Wanderers
Josh Carson Ipswich Town
Steven Davis Rangers
Robert Garrett Linfield
Stuart Dallas Crusaders
Warren Feeney Oldham Athletic
Josh McQuoid Millwall
Liam Boyce Werder Bremen
Jordan Owens Crusaders

Very disappointed if we don't beat that lot!

[Not Brazil]

Convenient, that; probably just didn't want to have to suffer the disappointment of having to watch his fellow countrymen singing his national anthem from the opposing side. ;)

Perhaps some of your squad will suffer the same disappointment?:D

[Not Brazil]

Very disappointed if we don't beat that lot!

Be a bit of a humiliation for you if you don't hammer "that lot", to be honest.

[tetsujin1979]

Is there any reason why Kyle Lafferty was excluded?

[DannyInvincible]

Is there any reason why Kyle Lafferty was excluded?

Pre-booked holidays, apparently.

[DannyInvincible]

Seems a bit of an odd excuse, mind, as is Paddy McCourt's, considering the dates of these fixtures have been known for... how long?

[ifk101]

Be a bit of a humiliation for you if you don't hammer "that lot", to be honest.

Humiliation? :bigsmile:

The focus is on the Macedonia game. I'd be disappointed if we don't beat the NI squad assembled by Nigel, nothing more.

[SwanVsDalton]

Not sure where Paddy's getting married, but if it's anywhere like Derry he'd have needed a church/hotel booked well over a year ago. Plus I'm sure the bride had a say in it somewhere. Not too unusual for sportspeople to skip less important events to get married.

[Not Brazil]

Not sure where Paddy's getting married, but if it's anywhere like Derry he'd have needed a church/hotel booked well over a year ago.

Millford, Co Donegal, I think.

[ifk101]

Nigel probably could have picked a stronger squad even given the number of players that have made themselves unavailable. I think it is somewhat odd that he picks 5 players from the Irish League (currently in its off season) and nobody from the stronger LOI (currently mid-season).

[DannyInvincible]

Better wedding gossip in this place than a 'Hello!' mag.

Where's the honeymoon? Buncrana?

[SwanVsDalton]

Nigel probably could have picked a stronger squad even given the number of players that have made themselves unavailable. I think it is somewhat odd that he picks 5 players from the Irish League (currently in its off season) and nobody from the stronger LOI (currently mid-season).

Nigel's got form in that regard - wasn't interested in McCourt or McGinn until they went to Celtic, plenty of Irish League players selected ahead of them. James McLean could've made a case for this squad given those who've made it.

[SwanVsDalton]

Better wedding gossip in this place than a 'Hello!' mag.

Where's the honeymoon? Buncrana?

On a footballer's salary?! Don't be daft. Has to be Rathmullan, obviously.

[Predator]

Nigel's got form in that regard - wasn't interested in McCourt or McGinn until then went to Celtic, plenty of Irish League players selected ahead of them. James McLean could've made a case for this squad given those who've made it.Definitely. He's been outstanding.

[Charlie Darwin]

Nigel probably could have picked a stronger squad even given the number of players that have made themselves unavailable. I think it is somewhat odd that he picks 5 players from the Irish League (currently in its off season) and nobody from the stronger LOI (currently mid-season).
Last time he called up a LOI player for a summer tour of the US, the player in question (Alan Mannus) refused the invitation in order to concentrate on the title race. Quite right too :D

[DannyInvincible]

What players in the League of Ireland Premier Division would be eligible to play for the north other than Mannus, Liam Burns, Chris Turner and a bunch of Derry players?

[Not Brazil]

Last time he called up a LOI player for a summer tour of the US, the player in question (Alan Mannus) refused the invitation in order to concentrate on the title race. Quite right too :D

Mannus has also answered Northern Ireland's call when it would have been easier not to bother before - West Indies tour being an example.

Having watched Mannus and Blayney play for Linfield on numerous occassions, I think they are both very decent keepers, but Blayney's all round game shades it for me. He had a fantastic season this year.

[ifk101]

What players in the League of Ireland Premier Division would be eligible to play for the north other than Mannus, Liam Burns, Chris Turner and a bunch of Derry players?

Are you fishing Danny? :)

[awec]

Is there any reason why Kyle Lafferty was excluded?
A question that I have been asking.

The lad picks and chooses his games, much to my annoyance.

[cornflakes]

Scotland squad:
Gilks (Blackpool), McGregor (Rangers), Turner (Everton); Bardsley (Sunderland), Berra (Wolves), G Caldwell (Wigan), Crainey (Blackpool), Hanley (Blackburn), R Martin (Norwich), Whittaker (Rangers), Wilson (Liverpool); Adam (Blackpool), Bannan (Aston Villa), Brown (Celtic), Forrest (Celtic), McArthur (Wigan), Morrison (West Brom), Robson (Middlesbrough); Commons (Celtic), Mackail-Smith (Peterborough), Maguire (Aberdeen), McCormack (Leeds), Miller (Bursaspor), Naismith (Rangers).

[Charlie Darwin]

Mannus has also answered Northern Ireland's call when it would have been easier not to bother before - West Indies tour being an example.

Having watched Mannus and Blayney play for Linfield on numerous occassions, I think they are both very decent keepers, but Blayney's all round game shades it for me. He had a fantastic season this year.
Who was the keeper who played against Scotland? He was a disaster.


A question that I have been asking.

The lad picks and chooses his games, much to my annoyance.
To be fair, having the queen over this week has been a huge enough event for this country. I don't think we could handle Kyle Lafferty right after.

[DannyInvincible]

Are you fishing Danny? :)

Ha, was actually a genuine question. A conspiracy theorist might put forward the notion that Worthington has something against those plying their trade in the League of Ireland, Mannus being the exception. I always felt his ignorance of Paddy McCourt when he was with Derry was hard to understand when he was calling up Irish League players at the same time. Only when he moved did McCourt find himself featuring in Worthington's plans.

[gspain]

Ha, was actually a genuine question. A conspiracy theorist might put forward the notion that Worthington has something against those plying their trade in the League of Ireland, Mannus being the exception. I always felt his ignorance of Paddy McCourt when he was with Derry was hard to understand when he was calling up Irish League players at the same time. Only when he moved did McCourt find himself featuring in Worthington's plans.

Yes when compared to all the caps Doyle, Fahey and Coleman got while playing in the League of Ireland.

[DannyInvincible]

Yes when compared to all the caps Doyle, Fahey and Coleman got while playing in the League of Ireland.

That's a different issue entirely. It would be analogous if Trapattoni had been calling up Irish players playing league football in Malta or the Faroe Islands at their expense. It's not as if Trapattoni has been ignoring players playing in obviously superior leagues to a whole host of ones playing at an inferior level, however. Brian Murphy might have felt aggrieved when Westwood was called in ahead of him a few years ago, but it's not as if Bohs were ever playing at a higher level than Coventry. My point with McCourt was that whilst he was playing great football at Derry and on the receiving end of serious and justified interest from Celtic and the odd Premier League club in England, Worthington was calling up players playing for the likes of Crusaders. As for Mannus, he'd already been "inducted" into the NI squad from his time at Linfield, if you will.

Edit: And when I say "playing at a higher level", I should clarify that I mean regularly, as I'm well aware of how well Murphy was playing in Bohs' Champions League qualifiers, especially away to Salzburg; arguably a higher level of football, albeit very brief.

[DannyInvincible]

What I'm saying is, if Worthington felt McCourt wasn't playing at a high-enough level with Derry in the League of Ireland, fair enough, but don't offend the senses by calling up Irish League players at the very same time.

[awec]

You're fighting a losing battle Danny when you try to apply logic to Nigel Worthington's selection policy.

[DannyInvincible]

No doubting that there is a realisation among those in the NI support capable of forming an opinion independently that the boycott cannot achieve anything and hence the lack of consensus you highlight. Put it this way, wouldn't an independent observer highlight FIFA as the "culprit" here? - after all the FAI is abiding by the relevant FIFA statutes and the IFA has no problem whatsoever in organising a senior tournament with the FAI. Wouldn't an independent observer be puzzled as to why NI supporter group(s) are directing their anger at the FAI but at the same time aren't boycotting FIFA and its regulated competitions? Isn't this all just coming across at petty whinging?

At the end of the day if the relevant NI supporter group(s) genuinely wanted to highlight the eligibility issue wouldn't withdrawing from FIFA competition or a blanket supporter ban of FIFA regulated games make more of a statement? And why isn't this happening?

At least there are signs that the notion that the FAI aren't sole actors in these sagas is getting through to some on OWC:


Who to blame? The following all to blame on some parts:

1. The FAI - for nicking them and as usual begging all you can get until they end up with a team not reflective in any way of their culture and society of their 26 county Republic. In the last 20 years how many times have they fielded an all ROI born and bred 11?? Not many.
2. FIFA - Rules allowing these players to defect for reasons of nationality, yet with no family links to the ROI, never have lived there etc.
3. The NI manager - not going to meet the players at their clubs to explain the set up here, highlight the advantages of the NI team, their team
4. Peer pressure - maybe their mates are sectarian and will try and convince them to defect
5. The IFA - not doing enough to keep the players, not lobbying FIFA/UEFA, refusing to pull out of Nations Cup, not organising things well, no glamour friendlies, bad PR, still talking to the FAI etc...
6. The Players themselves - maybe they dont want to play for us anyway, but in that case they should defect aged 12, not aged 17 - 21.

I would take issue with what appears to be an order of "culpability" there, however. If anything, the influencing factors are probably the wrong way around, with the player, as a cognisant being, being the primary factor in his own personal decision, obviously. Besides, other obvious issues I have include:

i) It's not "nicking" or "begging". There's no underhand or illegitimate coercion involved. It's all above board, in line with the rules on the matter and the decision is left entirely up to the player himself.
ii) One might argue that our team does in fact reflect the culture of the Irish nation with its history of mass emigration, its significant diaspora and the uniquely peculiar constitutional status of those in the north-eastern corner of our island.
iii) NI are in no way different from us in regularly calling up players born elsewhere. Their under-age squads are littered with English-born kids. Hypocrisy, I think.
iv) Family links and residency are irrelevant as far as article 15 is concerned. In this instance, it should not be assumed without very, very persuasive argument that they ought to apply over a player's nationality.

I also object wholeheartedly to what is quite an ignorant and offensive notion; that these players have friends (and you may as well include their family in that, as I'm sure they do the same thing) who, by simply urging them to play for Ireland, are, by virtue of that alone, deemed to be sectarian. That just sums the problem up here. It's not as if NI fans and IFA staff haven't been urging the likes of Ferguson to choose NI either - and they call us "the Beggars"?! - but to label these individuals sectarian by virtue of that alone would be daft. If they were prepared to tolerate that northern-born Irish nationals playing for Ireland is a legitimate expression of national identity and that an expression of one's national identity is not in any way sectarian - even if politically-motivated, or however one wants to describe it; what is national identity, after all? - reality might be a bit easier to accept.

As far as the players themselves are concerned, as I've said many times before, they'll have grown up within the northern system by way of geographical circumstance and will probably be looked at and approached by IFA scouts before being mature enough to even comprehend fully the notion of national identity. Rather, they'll most likely just view interest from anyone as a welcome acknowledgement or vindication of their ability and jump at the chance to play a bit of football.

And the solution?


Perhaps introducing a Northern Irish passport as the only means of nationality for those born in NI (without Granny/family in ROI, mainland UK etc.) is the only way we will be able to keep these players, and that is an issue for government, sad again that politics rears its head so many times when all we want to do is play football.

The practicalities of this ought to have been expanded on. It would have made for very interesting reading. :rolleyes:

As much as Worthington's selection policy leaves a lot to be desired, I do feel a sense of sympathy for him. It's a no-win situation for him really. If he started favouring certain players in squad selections because there was a fear they might switch association in the future, it surely kind of brings the whole idea of putting out the side you consider your strongest at that moment in time into disrepute, and I'm sure significant numbers of NI fans wouldn't really like the idea of him "pandering" to what might be perceived as players whose commitment might otherwise be in question with carrot caps. If anyone, it should surely be FIFA with whom NI fans take out their grievances.

[awec]

I'm trying to work out who you are now Danny on that forum ;)

[DannyInvincible]

Hehe, admittedly, I don't post there as I'd be pretty sure doing so would have my tip-toeing behind enemy lines ground to an abrupt halt. ;) It takes a great deal of personal restraint, mind!

[awec]

I have you narrowed down to a shortlist ;)

[Charlie Darwin]

Yep, Trap flat-out doesn't think LOI football is a good enough standard to prepare a player for the national team. Worthington clearly thinks the Irish League is good enough but ignores players performing to a higher standard mere miles away.

[awec]

Yep, Trap flat-out doesn't think LOI football is a good enough standard to prepare a player for the national team. Worthington clearly thinks the Irish League is good enough but ignores players performing to a higher standard mere miles away.
Actually, Worthington doesn't really think the Irish League is a high enough standard.

He caps the best Irish league players in a desperate attempt to put them in the shop window to engineer a move for them out of the Irish League.

[Charlie Darwin]

Is playing against Turkey in Connecticut really a shop window? Unless he wants to engineer moves to Connecticut.

[cornflakes]

Actually, Worthington doesn't really think the Irish League is a high enough standard.

He caps the best Irish league players in a desperate attempt to put them in the shop window to engineer a move for them out of the Irish League.

Do any of the players called up have a chance of getting a move away? Are they any good?

[Sullivinho]

At least there are signs that the notion that the FAI aren't sole actors in these sagas is getting through to some on OWC:


Who to blame? The following all to blame on some parts:


1. The FAI - for nicking them and as usual begging all you can get until they end up with a team not reflective in any way of their culture and society of their 26 county Republic. In the last 20 years how many times have they fielded an all ROI born and bred 11?? Not many.
2. FIFA - Rules allowing these players to defect for reasons of nationality, yet with no family links to the ROI, never have lived there etc.
3. The NI manager - not going to meet the players at their clubs to explain the set up here, highlight the advantages of the NI team, their team
4. Peer pressure - maybe their mates are sectarian and will try and convince them to defect
5. The IFA - not doing enough to keep the players, not lobbying FIFA/UEFA, refusing to pull out of Nations Cup, not organising things well, no glamour friendlies, bad PR, still talking to the FAI etc...
6. The Players themselves - maybe they dont want to play for us anyway, but in that case they should defect aged 12, not aged 17 - 21.I would take issue with what appears to be an order of "culpability" there, however.

No kidding.

"1: The FAI, ... 6: The players themselves." The disparity between player and chosen association in that example is laughable. Mid-ranking dark horse "sectarian mates...maybe" will be disappointed to have finished below Nigel in the reckoning. The IFA's fifth place finish won't surprise many.

[SwanVsDalton]

Danny, your updates from OWC are depressing. Can't help reading them but they make me despair!

At this point seems we're all sectarian for supporting ROI and aiding the NI football apartheid. I'm probably a mega-sectarian because I once played a five-a-side in Carndonagh.

[awec]

Do any of the players called up have a chance of getting a move away? Are they any good?
In my honest opinion - I think some of them could move away but I'd be very surprised if they all did not end up back here again.

[DannyInvincible]

Danny, your updates from OWC are depressing. Can't help reading them but they make me despair!

Well, there's a lot worse that's just not even worth bothering to highlight, but these might cheer you up because I think they delve so deep into the realm of ridiculousness that they come round again full-circle to the point of actually being quite funny. They're proposed slogans for poster ideas to be held aloft by the one or two NI fans who are attending the game, although they read more and more like weird and deranged tabloid headlines as the list goes down.


DELANEY HANDS OFF NI PLAYERS

HENRY'S HAND SLAPPED YOU FOR STEALING OUR PLAYERS

ROI CEASE AGGRESSION ON NI FOOTBALL

F@*K OFF DELANEY AGGRESSOR

IFA GROW A SET OF BALLS

DELANEY TAKES POTSHOTS AT NI SHARED FOOTBALL FOR ALL

GIVE ROI SECTARIAN RECRUITMENT STRATEGY THE RED CARD


Almost like something from that "Down with this sort of thing!" scene with Father Ted or Father Dougal. Or should that be Reverend Ted and Pastor Dougal? :p

In other news, a residents group near Lansdowne Road is apparently going to protest outside the stadium on the night of the game against the presence of NI fans in Dublin. Haven't they heard of the mass boycott?