Celtic Cup thread

[awec]

Would they not just take this over to OWC?

Parker is surprisingly quiet over there. The reason he's on here is because he reckoned he could post his crap and get away with it. ;)

[EalingGreen]

Btw, it was not just one-way-traffic when it came to how supporters behaviour was reported.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/ian-odoherty/ian-odoherty-the-night-i-began-to-fall-out-of-love-with-the-beautiful-game-2535735.html

Meanwhile, fast-forwarding to 2015, as the Nations Cup is being held in Glasgow, Iain MacDougall of "Scotland on Sunday" writes:


The night I began to fall out of love with The Beautiful Game

Friday February 11 2015

So, there we were, having a quiet pint on Wednesday afternoon. You know the drill -- you get to knock off work a bit early and one of your mates says: "Fancy a swifty?"

There are few phrases more enticing in the English language than that one -- implicitly guaranteeing one of the great pleasures of Scottish life, and that, of course, is the idea of a couple of pints with good friends, good conversation and good slagging of each other in the afternoon.

It's kinda naughty, kinda bold and, let's face it, having a few sly beers in the middle of the afternoon, when most of your colleagues are still tied to the desk, is really rather ridiculously enjoyable.

And then . . . The Irish came in.

Now, I have no particular problem with Irish people -- every race, nation and ethnicity has a roughly equal ratio of decent people and *******s.

But these were definitely from the latter category.

I don't know what genius decided it would be a good idea to host a pointless match between Wales and Republic of Ireland in Glasgow -- honestly, think about it for 30 seconds and just ponder the stupidity of the very notion -- but the shower that came into our bar were the very dregs of humanity.

Roaring, shouting, singing and displaying that weird aggressive friendliness that drunken football fans are often guilty of, it was weird to see so many middle-aged men kitted out top-to-toes in Emerald Green and Guinness Hats, behaving like a bunch of thugs from Green Street.

Now, before you get your knickers in a twist and start accusing me of a) racism and b) being anti-football, let me get a few things straight.

For starters, I bloody love the game, I played it -- badly -- all my life and if, on death row, I was given the choice of having a last meal or watching a last football match, then I would plump for the latter.

But I must admit, the older I get, the more I bloody hate some football fans.

That sounds like heresy, and you're probably right, but I can no longer stand the stupid, reflexive tribalism of so many fans.

You can't go into a pub on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon without being swamped by a horde of middle-aged men wearing replica jerseys and, yeah, that's fine and part of the crack, but the levels of hysteria so many of them reach; the utter absence of any logic and, worst of all, the self-deception is completely obvious and transparent and, frankly, rather pitiful.

I understand why people like to go down the pub to watch a match, but I haven't been in a bar for a game in years.

The reason? Well, I want to be able to watch the game and try to gauge how it's playing out -- I want to be able to see who's playing well, who looks a bit jittery, who looks like they might be carrying a knock and all the myriad other tiny things that all go into making football -- don't use the word 'soccer' in my company, that's the phrase used by Americans and culchies and I hate it -- the greatest game in the world.

And yet, having gone to a rugby-playing school, where they looked down on football and, to my intense irritation at the time, used to sneer at football fans, you have to admit, to a certain degree, the snobs and the posh kids had a point.

I've been on away trips where people I have known for years, sensible, decent people, have gone completely bloody mental -- just because they were in a stadium.

We Scottish are guilty of a terrible degree of self satisfaction when it comes to our football fans.

And while I am loath to engage in the national back-slapping that we tend to be guilty of -- ah sure we're a great little country and everyone loves us etc -- it has to be said that, on the whole, the Scottish do genuinely tend to behave better on away trips than other nations.

Those Irish fans in my local will claim that they were simply having fun and being a bit boisterous. But they weren't.

Everyone else in the pub immediately tensed and when we heard one Celtic fan talking about how much he hates Rangers and at one point it looked like it was probably going to kick off.

And I was just bloody enraged. Why should people having a quiet pint in Glasgow have to worry about some sectarian gob****e bringing his stupid, ignorant, tribal, foreign bigotry on to our soil?

Indeed, the most depressing aspect of the slagging I used to get in school from my rugby-playing classmates -- I played rugby nearly as badly as I played football, and I love both games, although football will always be number one -- was that their sneering attitude towards the average fan is so often borne out to be true.

The greatest game in the world is so often betrayed and let down by the kind of idiot who thinks he can prove his love for the game is more than yours by being a loud, obnoxious, threatening, violent scumbag.

And it's time the rest of us called stop.



Anyhow, here's some more evidence of Scottish fans drinking, singing and generally making an exhibition of themselves in someone elses country...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5EIWA2VZZs&feature=related

[EalingGreen]

Jesus Christ, it's been four pages. Can we talk about football again?

I feel your pain, Charlie, but I fear there is no relief in sight, since we NI fans don't especially care to talk about Wednesday's game(!) and Mr. Photoshop only wants to talk about the carnage and bloodshed of the 'Battle of Ballsbridge'.

"It was Murther, I tell ye, pure Murther..."

[Charlie Darwin]

Ian O'Doherty is sort of known for being "the non-politically correct guy." Anybody who makes it to the end of his column has already lost the argument.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Would they not just take this over to OWC?
Simply because any criticism on there, implied or real, cannot be accepted in line with the uber-paranoia on there.
Which even the likes of the CIA would struggle to comprehend....

Also unsure why EG posted that You Tube link, given the real Scotland fans have far worse about 'Ingerland', and on the basis of their limited 'songbook' that I've heard, the North's fans sing about us.
And they claim to be 'Irish'! Well sometimes.

Not much to do with football, but this farce of a tournament was never going to be....

[SwanVsDalton]

So....Norn Iron fans, how'd you feel about Wednesday night? I though McCourt had on OK game, despite being a carrier defensively, the rest of it was fairly woeful from an NI perspective, just my view....

[fhtb]

Mr Parker. Mr Parker Mr Parker Mr Parker...

[paul_oshea]

Ah fhtb.i thought you were dead

[awec]

So....Norn Iron fans, how'd you feel about Wednesday night? I though McCourt had on OK game, despite being a carrier defensively, the rest of it was fairly woeful from an NI perspective, just my view....

McCourt was our best player. Everyone else was doot. Scotland ripped us to shreds, thankfully they took the foot off the gas or it could have been 5 or 6.

[paul_oshea]

I think the fact that the games conclude all around the same time it makes it better, more of a tournament feel about it. Is scotland v Ireland the last game? I hope so. Good planning ahead if it was :D

[awec]

Yea Scotland Ireland is the last one.

[Charlie Darwin]

I only really watched the second half, but I was surprised McCourt was left on after the raft of substitutions. He was invisible for long periods, although he wasn't helped by the forward he was supposed to be playing off (Patterson?)

[ArdeeBhoy]

Mr Parker. Mr Parker Mr Parker Mr Parker...

And??

Talk about wanting to shoot a Messenger??

[Mr_Parker]

Parker is surprisingly quiet over there. The reason he's on here is because he reckoned he could post his crap and get away with it. ;)

Why did you post, "a good day was had by all" over there too? :rolleyes:

My posts were in response to your comments.

[Mr_Parker]

What "subtle" comments?

Purely by coincidence. There was no connection made by you to your final sentence, nor could one reasonably have been inferred. So why don't you stop lying and admit that it was a blatant 'parting shot' by you to deceive other browsers into believing that you had found a photo of an NI fan confronting the Gardai in Dublin on Wednesday night?

Then why didn't you make that clear?
I'll tell you why, because your posting of that photo was nothing to do with your concern for the accuracy of reporting etc, and everything to do with your desire to denigrate the GAWA, even if it means blatantly lying.

No, I don't "rememer" [sic] and nor will 99.9% of the members of this forum.

And in any case, no-one is accusing the Herald report, upon which you rest what passes for a case, of having made a simple error of fact. Rather, awec and myself are stating that the Herald, in typical tabloid style, took a few incidents of misbehaviour and blew them up out of all proportion, to try to paint a picture of the GAWA that was seriously misleading.

And like night follows day, you piled in on the back of that, to add your tuppence-worth in order to slag off the NI fans. Which would be bad enough, were it not for the fact that you went further in fabricating a photo as "proof", then trying to deny it with the most transparent of fig-leaves when outed.

I am not relying on the Herald and never claimed to be. There were several sources including 2 radio phone-ins including one as the game was taking place as well as personal accounts of NI fans who were in attendance. There have been more reports in other papers since.

I never was making any case as you claim. I challenged someone who was trying to paint the day as all sweetness and light.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Seems fair enough, two sides to every story....

[Predator]

Two sides and the right side.

[co. down green]

Never heard this 'party tune' before, anyone explain the origin?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qwP6Ih5Eds

[ArdeeBhoy]

Can anyone even make out the first minute? And they could at least use their own tunes, FFS?

As for their line about Mr.Sands, ends the myth of 'Football For All', once and all.
And good to see they're hanging on to their own staples songs wise, 'inclusive', me hole.

Messrs. Lennon, McCourt, McGinn & Boyce would doubtless be impressed. Especially given the recent correspondence some of them have received....

[paul_oshea]

I can only make out F bobby sands in that "song", what else are they saying? Is that EG in the background with a scarf? They are acutely aware of the garda siochanna as well in the background.

Can you imagine the uproar if we went up to windsor park singing F the queen and the UDA or the likes. The thing is you wouldn't hear them being sung any where and rightly so.

And there is not a minority there, as people walk through they get involved, laughing and taking videos etc. I'm sure they felt big in a group, in the Irish Republics soccer stronghold to let off some steam. Its a pity the guards didn't actually arrest them, they were inciting hatred after all, directly towards those guards present - "fenians".

[paul_oshea]

I wasn't aware the UVF had a different name -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Citizen_Volunteers

[Charlie Darwin]

Never heard this 'party tune' before, anyone explain the origin?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qwP6Ih5Eds
That is tragic.

[Stuttgart88]

We should ask Bono what he thinks

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12444061

[ifk101]

What's to be gained from playing NI in a game of football?

[osarusan]

What's to be gained from playing NI in a game of football?

Money for the FAI?

[AlaskaFox]

What's to be gained from playing NI in a game of football?

Debut for Shane Duffy, and game time for Wilson and Gibson?

[ifk101]

Money for the FAI?

Only if the IFA is paying the FAI to take part in the competition.

[Sullivinho]

What's to be gained from playing NI in a game of football?

A win. :D

[paul_oshea]

If some eejits that cause trouble at bohs/rovers games, see this video, this could be a disaster.

[Charlie Darwin]

If some eejits that cause trouble at bohs/rovers games, see this video, this could be a disaster.
You mean the Gardai? They were there mate.

[cornflakes]

If some eejits that cause trouble at bohs/rovers games, see this video, this could be a disaster.

they have, read the comments. I presume bohsbill is a bohemians fan

[Mr_Parker]

Only if the IFA is paying the FAI to take part in the competition.

Is everyone not ultimately paying Scotland to take part?

[Predator]

they have, read the comments. I presume bohsbill is a bohemians fan
From 'nosurrender16901'
"keyboard warrior when the video is of me singing loyalists songs in your capital city you stupid ****. if use *******s were playing scotland at windsor park id of been there as well with a rifle or a pistol in my hand. kind of feel sorry for you ***** all the abuse you suffered as a child at the hands of catholic priests you dirty wee choir boy. probably enjoyed it too by the sounds of things your as bent as that ******* stephen gately"

This is the kind of thing that will ensure that the IFA continue to lose prospective players and support. Can a leopard change its spots?

[paul_oshea]

You mean the Gardai? They were there mate.

CD dont even bother starting with that one.

[ArdeeBhoy]

If some eejits that cause trouble at bohs/rovers games, see this video, this could be a disaster.
On the basis of the limited amount I know about Bohs/Shams hoolies. would say that's a non-starter they would 'join forces'.
Even for that shower.

[ArdeeBhoy]

From 'nosurrender16901'
"keyboard warrior when the video is of me singing loyalists songs in your capital city you stupid ****. if use *******s were playing scotland at windsor park id of been there as well with a rifle or a pistol in my hand. kind of feel sorry for you ***** all the abuse you suffered as a child at the hands of catholic priests you dirty wee choir boy. probably enjoyed it too by the sounds of things your as bent as that ******* stephen gately"

This is the kind of thing that will ensure that the IFA continue to lose prospective players and support. Can a leopard change its spots?
No. Ultimately, the paranoia is too great.

[boovidge]

What a depressing video.

[shakermaker1982]

Anybody spot EG in that video?! :)

[EalingGreen]

Anybody spot EG in that video?! :)Your comment may have intended in jest, but I'll have you know I find it offensive to be associated even obliquely with scum like that (in fact, my great regret is that it wasn't possible for a bunch of Gardai to segregate them and batter the living s h i te out of them).

Anyhow, fyi I attended the game courtesy of an avid ROI fan and we socialised very happily before/during* the game with fans from NI/ROI/Scotland, fortunately well out of sight or earshot of the lowlife in the video.


* - We both had to shoot off straight after.

[paul_oshea]

EG but there were a couple of old women coming through, not what you would associate with a scum element, who appeared to be laughing and singing along.

Its commendable for you to say what you have said, given that we have never seen you outrighly condemn this sorta stuff, rather try and deflect or negate the impact, even suggest it didn't happen.

I don't think the cops coming along, segregating would have done anyone any good. Especially if those "fans" went home and said they were dealt severly by the gardai, and the gardai with little or no evidence to prove(those videos wouldn't have been uncovered) what was going on.

[EalingGreen]

Its commendable for you to say what you have said, given that we have never seen you outrighly condemn this sorta stuff, rather try and deflect or negate the impact, even suggest it didn't happen.I have to say I find that comment by you to be a fcuking disgrace, indeed highly offensive.

Nowhere have I ever denied/deflected/defended it when a section of the NI support has misbehaved like so, either here or on any other forum.
Rather as a decades-long fan, I have always sought to give an honest account of the whole picture, drawn from personal experience, "warts and all".

You, however, appear only to read into my comments what you want to read, presumably in order to conform with your own prejudices.

Meanwhile, the likes of 'Mr. Parker' can knowingly and deliberately attempt to pass off an old photo of a Polish hoolie confronting the PSNI in Belfast as an NI hoolie confronting the Gardai in Dublin, without receiving any criticism from you, whilst the Mods sit idly by. Then again, he's "one of us" and we all know that it's only "themmuns" who are the liars, isn't it?

Double Standards or what?


I don't think the cops coming along, segregating would have done anyone any good.I was not suggesting that it was feasible for the Gardai to have separated out the scumbags in such circumstances, and administered some welcome "summary justice" without risking innocent bystanders getting hurt etc.
Rather I was merely making the point that, in common with the overwhelming majority of the GAWA, I would have loved to see it if it were possible.


Especially if those "fans" went home and said they were dealt severly by the gardai, and the gardai with little or no evidence to prove(those videos wouldn't have been uncovered) what was going on.The good people of NI (i.e. the great majority) know better than anyone else just what lowlife these people are - we have to tolerate them in our midst, after all.
Consequently, if they did return with bleeding heads, tales of "police brutality" and (the inevitable) claims for compensation, I have no doubt they would be treated with all the contempt they deserve.
Meanwhile if such treatment meant they were deterred from travelling again to Dublin next May, and disgracing us "by association", then I've no doubt that the vast majority of the GAWA would be doubly delighted

[shakermaker1982]

I was only joking EG.

Just hope these so called fans behave when they next come to Dublin. Don't think they'll get it so easy from the authorities next time around.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Take your reply at face value EG and even the biggest cynic would not say the 'decent fans of the North' should be associated with those numptys.

However, besides the inertia of the Garda, it would be interesting to know what sorts of nos were involved (Which I don't expect anyone to answer, unless they were the police chief in charge!)??
Guessing into almost three figures and what anyone with your stance could and would have done about it, not to mention the Guards.

And without revisiting the dialogue between awec and MP, it would appear definitely not all was 'sweetness and light' and that these people were the sort involved, in additional watering duties for local gardeners....

For the record, with these kind of people (this would be around 'average' in the context of the songbook for a certain team from Govan) would say let them sing what they want. Which they seemed to do anyway.
But the moment they physically misbehave, like annoying local residents and worse, the Guards should treat them just like they belatedly responded to the fascists in '95.

[Not Brazil]

Never heard this 'party tune' before, anyone explain the origin?


There are two "party tunes" in the clip.

The first is "Build My Gallows", with the lyrics as follows:

I Am A Loyal Ulster Man
they Say This Day That I Must Hang
cause I Fought The Ira
they Say That I Must Pay
well They Say This Day That I Must Hang.

so Build My Gallows Build Them High
that I Might See Before I Die
the Antrim Glen And The Hills Of County Down
and I'll See Again The Lights Of Home.

well I Am A Loyal Ulster Man
they Say This Day That I Must Hang
i Fought Those Evil Men
and I'd Do It All Again
they Say This Day That I Must Hang.

so Build My Gallows Build Them High
that I Might See Before I Die
the Antrim Glen And The Hills Of County Down
and I'll See Again The Lights Of Home.

i Am A Loyal Ulster Man
they Say This Day That I Must Hang
well I Fought That Evil Band
and I Freed My Native Land
they Say This Day That I Must Hang.

so Build My Gallows Build Them High
that I Might See Before I Die
the Antrim Glen, The Hills Of County Down
and I'll See Again The Lights Of Home.
the Antrim Glen, The Hills Of County Down
and I'll See Again The Lights Of Home.

I think it's a bit of a "Loyalist's" fantasists ditty, as I am unaware of any "Loyal Ulsterman", who "fought the IRA" and was sentenced to the death penalty.


The second number is called "A Father's Advice", with the lyrics being as follows:

Said a father to his son
"Oh my boy the time has come"
Your country it is calling unto thee
For those rebels once again
To unite us is their aim
And together we must stand to keep her free

Chorus:

Remember, our fathers brave and bold
As they fought for Ulsters cause in far off lands
Oh my father said to me "I must join the Y.C.V"
With a rifle or a pistol in my hand

From Belfast to Armagh
Carade to old Crossgar
From Ballymena to old Omagh town
With their standards flying high
As it was in days gone by
We will rally round the flag for liberty

(chorus)

Come all you Volunteers
Let us fight and never fear
Just like our fathers did so long ago
Though i'm sixteen years of age
In the Volunteers i'll engage
Like our fathers did so many years ago.

The YCV being the junior wing of the UVF.

I hope that's educational.

[Fixer82]

EG but there were a couple of old women coming through, not what you would associate with a scum element, who appeared to be laughing and singing along.

Its commendable for you to say what you have said, given that we have never seen you outrighly condemn this sorta stuff, rather try and deflect or negate the impact, even suggest it didn't happen.


Bit harsh I think on EG.
While I might not always agree with what he says I do find him a reasonable person who often offers another perspective. I'd certainly rather have him around this forum than not. Tis always good to have someone hold up a mirror to ourselves and have us ask questions of ourselves as ROI fans

[SolitudeRed]

Those are Rangers songs being sung I presume? Last time I checked over on ILSF there was a bit of a row going on as some NI fans were upset by the singing of a song which refered to Niall McGinn/Paddy McCourt making Rangers look sh**e, From talking to NI fans I know who would be more 'old school' they talk about a new breed of 'middle class do gooder' NI fans who are becoming increasingly prevalent and who would have a more open mindset, Needless to say he wasn't in agreement with them.

[Not Brazil]

Those are Rangers songs being sung I presume? Last time I checked over on ILSF there was a bit of a row going on as some NI fans were upset by the singing of a song which refered to Niall McGinn/Paddy McCourt making Rangers look sh**e, From talking to NI fans I know who would be more 'old school' they talk about a new breed of 'middle class do gooder' NI fans who are becoming increasingly prevalent and who would have a more open mindset, Needless to say he wasn't in agreement with them.

I believe they are ditties that would be sung by Rangers fans.

Indeed - some people are finding it hard to get their heads around the fact that the majority of Northern Ireland fans want f**k all to do with such "Party Tunes", and consider them to have no place at Northern Ireland games.

[paul_oshea]

Bit harsh I think on EG.
While I might not always agree with what he says I do find him a reasonable person who often offers another perspective. I'd certainly rather have him around this forum than not. Tis always good to have someone hold up a mirror to ourselves and have us ask questions of ourselves as ROI fans

EG/Fixer, I agree fixer82 however, EG you added in the word defended into my post thanks for that, but when I didnt want it in the first place you can remove it again, I stick by the rest, I am not prejudiced, in fact I would be a complete hypocrite if I were given stuff in the past. Its not just NI fans, LOI teams like rovers and bohs(quick get some fairy liquid) down here, and all over English football grounds, in fact the world over, fans try to disassociate these elements with their club, - I am not playing the sectarian card, however these songs and general behaviour have a sectarian element - as by coincidence they just appear at every game looking for trouble, their association by chance per se. And with that point in mind, you have in the past tried to deflect or play down a minority element. That video did not apper to be a minority, with all those who had passed by over the whole duration of the video joining/laughing/whatever. I mean how do we decide what a minority is anyway? If it gets bigger and bigger is it still a minority? Anyway thats a different argument, but EG you left out the point of the two old ladies, and id be pretty sure they knew what was being sung.

NB, i had heard the middle one before but I never knew the lyrics to make out, i googled it to find out, but i think i found a slightlly different version to what you posted, ill see if i can dig it up again. To be fair the second song isn't that bad, its suggestive obviouslly but its within the context that its sung is probably the problem and what the context is. I mean change a few place names/organisations and it could fit into many countrys history.

[paul_oshea]

What worries me, is, I like singing and clapping in general, and just making noise(cos im a bit of a gómb). If I joined in in the sing song and my accent came across would I be set upon? Or could I use fhtb as an example in my defence?

[Not Brazil]

NB, i had heard the middle one before but I never knew the lyrics to make out, i googled it to find out, but i think i found a slightlly different version to what you posted, ill see if i can dig it up again

The middle one of two?