Roy Keane

[Cosmo]

Have any of you ever met Keane? Just curious what he's like when there's not a camera in his face....

A mate of mine who has absolutely no interest in football, was drinking with him one night in cork.

This is about 10 years ago id say and he never even heard of him beforehand would you believe!! As I said no interest in football whatsoever!! I always thought he was g@y cos of that! ;)

Anyway he was down visiting his uncle in cork and went down the local with his uncle and was drinking with the uncle and his mates. Was introduced to all his mates and the lads were all wondering why he never battered an eyelid when introduced to keane :D - he was drininking with him and his mates for the night and said he was sound as a pound and actually quite shy at times (despite been surrounded by his friends from years!!)

Though when he came back to drogheda he couldnt remember his name - he was telling me the story (as he knew I was a man utd fan), 'Wheelo, I was drinking with a man utd player in cork last week', 'what was his name', 'eh, keane something' :D

Sorry for going off topic, but I actually always like that story!!

[Fizzer]

I am sorry but i am uunable to come onto this site and read a post like this.
Have you just said that mr.Roy Keane is not a class act, I'm sorry to disagree but is not the same Roy Keane that one:

1. Got Clough from a low standard of irish football(no disrespect loyal limerick fan here) to the big leagues in england.

2. signed for united in 1993 for 3.75 million pounds british transfer fee at the time.

3.was handed the manchester united captaincy from one of the most respected managers in the game.

4. got booked in a chapions league semi-final (knew he would be suspended) and went on to inspire the team to victory and in fergusons words
;It was the most emphatic display of selflessness I have seen on a football field. Pounding over every blade of grass, competing if he would rather die of exhaustion than lose, he inspired all around him. I felt it was an honour to be associated with such a player;

5. the largest crowd ever to attend a testomonial in england attended roy keane.

6. 7 premier leagues, 4 f.a cups , one intercontanintal cup,scotish cup, scotish league i wont even throw in the chapions league he took them to the semi-final off.

7.english football writers player of the year 2000 and players footballer of the year 2000

8.english hall of fame 2004 george best and liam brady the only other two inductees.

9. did he not also make our only placing in fifas top 100 living footballers besides the norths best who is now dead on gone r.i.p

10.named our best player in 94 world cup playing every game

11.and in typical keane fashion refused to celabrate as he saw the defeat to holland as disapointment.

12.got us a draw in landsdowne road against portugal.

13.and that tackle in the first few minutes against the dutch.

14.once and for all put a stop to the problems on plane for international.

15.and in saipan stood up and said that the irish national team shouldnt have to train in sub-standard conditions.
I don.t think anybody ever said this but in 2002 we still had the celtic tiger aura around the country, why were we going on a training camp to a sh*thole like saipan.

16.showed a world cup and euro cup winner, Paddy Vieria of aresnal what t was like to mark a real midfielder on numerous occasions.

I think the 16 points, i have shown you will prove to u that roy keane is definatley a class act, and you say that robbie keane dunne and given are class.

I WOULD HAVE TO DISAGREE ROBBIE KEANE IS A GREAT PLAYER, DUNNE IS A VERY GOOD PLAYER, SHAY GIVEN IS A CLASS ACT AGREED. BUT I THINK IF U ASKED ANY OF THESE THREE PLAYERS WHAT WAS ROY KEANE YOU WOULD GET 3 ANSWERS FROM THE ABOVE

CLASS ACT



LEADER AND MOTIVATER(BEST OUT WEAKER PLAYER)





LEGEND.!!!!!!!!!!!

Or as the corkonians would say GOD



11. Most players would treat defeat as a disappointment but we in fact drew with the Dutch 2-2

[Colbert Report]

11. Most players would treat defeat as a disappointment but we in fact drew with the Dutch 2-2

You're ignorant. We lost the game, it was the second round of the World Cup in 1994. Paul McGrath's goal was disallowed.

[Docboy]

More than likely referring to the game in Amsterdam that we only drew 2-2 after being two up. Great performance that night but Keane was right we threw it away. Will never forget Kilbane's miss that would have put it to bed. If only!

[Colbert Report]

I know exactly which game he meant. He's wrong though, if he had taken the time to read the post that he's quoted he would realise that clearly the game mentioned was the 1994 World Cup game.

The Holland game which we drew 2-2 took place on September 2, 2000.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
10.named our best player in 94 world cup playing every game

11.and in typical keane fashion refused to celabrate as he saw the defeat to holland as disapointment.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Learn how to read!

[Irish_Praha]

More than likely referring to the game in Amsterdam that we only drew 2-2 after being two up. Great performance that night but Keane was right we threw it away. Will never forget Kilbane's miss that would have put it to bed. If only!

We still qualified so it's not really an "if only" moment :p
Unless of course you had been (and are still) waiting since 1987 for Ireland to win an away competitive football game against a team seeded 1st or 2nd. Hopefully this will finally happen next month ;)

[Denis The Red]

http://www.rte.ie/aertel/221-01.html
Just thought that I would add this as another example of the Roy Keane school of "How to win friends and gain peoples respect"

What the f has Daniel Agger got to do with Roy Keane's friends???:p

[Den Perry]

I think Keane is very conscious of creating an image.

If someone watched his guide dog interview with no previous experience with the man, you'd say he was a charming, nice guy.

The media machine would have you believe that this was one of the toughest men alive, and this is largely because of Roy fueling this image himself.

I love football, I love playing football, but when I hear the talk about "hard men," and people shouting "it's a man's game" I have to laugh.

Obviously there are moments in a match that require genuine courage- going up for a header against a goalkeeper who is trying to punch a ball; maintaining your focus while dribbling as you know someone is trying to lunge at you with a sliding tackle; going up for a header against a guy who's been swinging elbows throughout the match, etc.

But the point I'm trying to make is that football for the most part is not violent nor what I would call typically masculine.

The media would make you think Roy was the toughest guy in the world, but I'd pick one of the Irish rugby guys of a similar height/weight to beat Roy in a fight any day.

F uck off with your rugby ****e please

[Den Perry]

I dont remember hearing that Keane said that to Haaland, and his beef was with Haaland for accusing him of faking injury when he was down with a career-threatening one, I dont recall him having a problem with the actual incident that led to the injury.


It was Wetherall, not woodgate. Sorry for being pedantic!!

[Beavis]

Seem to remember something about Keane pulling out of the second leg of the playoff against Iran in November 2001 but being fit days later to play for MU.



Less than 3 days after Iran (no need to emphasise the game's importance) :

Manchester United 2 : 0 Leciester City, November 17, 2001 http://www.redcafe.net/archives/report.php?id=278

Yes he had been out for 4 weeks, but he managed to play a full 90. He had his priorities seriously wrong.

[seanfhear]

What the f has Daniel Agger got to do with Roy Keane's friends???:p
Oops I thought those aertel pages were scribed in stone somewhere for all time.

Me stoopid please don't tell Roy Keane !

[OwlsFan]

Again though Keane stressed last night the reason he lost the plot in Saipan was being accused of faking injury.

Truth hurts. I remember thinking it at the time as well. I also remember an interview with him after the game and Keane smirked as he said "The lads didn't need me".

[Fizzer]

I know exactly which game he meant. He's wrong though, if he had taken the time to read the post that he's quoted he would realise that clearly the game mentioned was the 1994 World Cup game.

The Holland game which we drew 2-2 took place on September 2, 2000.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
10.named our best player in 94 world cup playing every game

11.and in typical keane fashion refused to celabrate as he saw the defeat to holland as disapointment.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Learn how to read!

Nah I read it and his points are jumping from year to year not necessarily in chronological order. Think it's arguable that he's talking about the game in Amsterdam given the emphasis at the time that was put by the keane disiples that he was fantastic because he wasn't happy with a draw and Mick was. Maybe he was talking about 94, if so I would expect most of the players should have been disappointed. Still, i'm not going to say that they shouldn't be entitled to celebrate getting to the knock-out stages of the world cup and I don't think Keane is great because he decided not to join them.

[NeilMcD]

Lads Duff and McGeady did the same thing against Italy. They both missed the Italy game and then played on The Saturday. Is Trap going to accuse them of feigning injury. Are the Irish fans going to accuse them of feigning injury and by Owls Fans logic if you get annoyed or mad by insult you are then guilty. I am glad they do not use this logic in the courts.

[Colbert Report]

No kidding. Roy Keane was the perfect example of professionalism and dedication. I can't believe some "supporters" who claim to know football can't understand this. I was on a mickey mouse pub team a few years back. I totally understand where Roy was coming from. Sometimes standing up for your principles is more important than winning a football tournament.

[bennocelt]

Nah I read it and his points are jumping from year to year not necessarily in chronological order. Think it's arguable that he's talking about the game in Amsterdam given the emphasis at the time that was put by the keane disiples that he was fantastic because he wasn't happy with a draw and Mick was. Maybe he was talking about 94, if so I would expect most of the players should have been disappointed. Still, i'm not going to say that they shouldn't be entitled to celebrate getting to the knock-out stages of the world cup and I don't think Keane is great because he decided not to join them.

could have been the "party" in pheonix park after - which was cringeworthy stuff

[as_i_say]

No kidding. Roy Keane was the perfect example of professionalism and dedication. I can't believe some "supporters" who claim to know football can't understand this. I was on a mickey mouse pub team a few years back. I totally understand where Roy was coming from. Sometimes standing up for your principles is more important than winning a football tournament.

Don't think Ive ever bothered to comment on the Keane saga before but when talking about WC2002 when the Irish team played the best football of any team of a generation (include charltons) to qualify out of an incredibly tough group-to get to that WC (which might not happen again for a long long time) and hear someone say

"Sometimes standing up for your principles is more important than winning a football tournament".

Utter bol1ox. He should have kept his god dam mouth shut till after the tournament.

[Stuttgart88]

More than likely referring to the game in Amsterdam that we only drew 2-2 after being two up. Great performance that night but Keane was right we threw it away. Will never forget Kilbane's miss that would have put it to bed. If only!Yeah, it'd have been 3-1 straight after they scored their first.

I can see Keane's disappointment in that agme alright, but the other side of the coin is that we had a threadbare bench - nobody fit could come on and the starting XI were knackered. Harte was asleep at the back post for Holland's first. Their equaliser was a poxy deflection off Carr and in the last minute the rookie Richard Dunne made the tackle of his life on Kluivert to save a certain victory for the Dutch. I was happy when the final whistle went & McCarthy was well within his rights to congratulate a young team on a good away result when the pundits expected a thrashing.

[Wolfie]

Don't think Ive ever bothered to comment on the Keane saga before but when talking about WC2002 when the Irish team played the best football of any team of a generation (include charltons) to qualify out of an incredibly tough group-to get to that WC (which might not happen again for a long long time) and hear someone say

"Sometimes standing up for your principles is more important than winning a football tournament".

Utter bol1ox. He should have kept his god dam mouth shut till after the tournament.

Gets to the crux of the matter re Saipan. Its easy to get bogged down in the rights and wrongs of what transpired between McCarthy and Keane on the lead up to his exit. Neither behaved admirably.

The salient point is - No matter how much of an affront suffered and how justified he thought he was in walking - Keane should have stayed on and played.

That would have involved integrity, loyalty and a level of self-lessness that a real leader possesses.

A real shame - as much for Keane himself as anyone else.

[back of the net]

I can't believe some "supporters" who claim to know football can't understand this. I was on a mickey mouse pub team a few years back. I totally understand where Roy was coming from. Sometimes standing up for your principles is more important than winning a football tournament.


wat a pile of utter sh*te!!!

[danonion]

I always thought Roy was overrated as a player. He was good but people went over the top with him always.

[SkStu]

just have to disagree - whatever about the rights and wrongs of Saipan, his ability or lack of as a manager or whether or not he is a nice guy or a raving lunatic, the one thing I can say with certainty is that he was a great player. Truly world class. If anything, in my opinion, he was underrated as a player.

[danonion]

just have to disagree - whatever about the rights and wrongs of Saipan, his ability or lack of as a manager or whether or not he is a nice guy or a raving lunatic, the one thing I can say with certainty is that he was a great player. Truly world class. If anything, in my opinion, he was underrated as a player.

I have to disagree. He couldn't be given any more acclaim. But throughout his career there were always better players around in his position. Doesn't fit into my definition of world class.

[DeLorean]

I have to disagree. He couldn't be given any more acclaim. But throughout his career there were always better players around in his position. Doesn't fit into my definition of world class.

What is your definition of World Class?

Do you support any English team? edit- It's ok I see from one of your previous posts that you hate United, I assume it's a factor when your assessing Keane, although I'm sure you will claim otherwise.

[weldoninhio]

I always thought that Keane was a very good player, but definitely a little bit over-rated. I don't blame him or the fans for this, but he was playing at a time when the "Super Duper Premiership on Sky" was being forced upon us and every half decent player in the Prem was being hyped up beyond their or anyones abilities.

[Superhoops]

I always thought Roy was overrated as a player. He was good but people went over the top with him always.

I have no time for Roy Keane as a man, nor do I think he contributed anywhere near as much to the green jersey as he should have, but as a footballer he was class, up there with the best of his generation.

[geysir]

Roy Keane is "the perfect human being"

Eamonn Dunphy

[Razors left peg]

I always thought Roy was overrated as a player. He was good but people went over the top with him always.

now that is just complete rubbish.... Im actually shaking my head in disbelieve of that opinion. I can understand peoples opinions of his personality to a certain extent but to question the man as a player shows a complete lack of any sort of football knowledge.... or just a wind up

[Stuttgart88]

I thought he was unjustly left out of many UEFA player of the year polls. etc. He didn't have the television friendly finesse that others had but he did the simple things brilliantly and consistently. He wasn't superbly talented but was amazingly influential in a game, he could just get a grip on it like probably only Vieira could of his era.

[geysir]

I lost real interest in what a player does for his club a long time ago.

We didn't have a great squad for the WC 2002 qualifiers, but he made the difference to make us a very good team. Probably at his peak, both in terms of respect from the fans and influence on the pitch. Portugal away, is a game I could watch again and again.
With Keane, at least no one was going to fxck with us at the WCF.





Pity about the
http://www.upgradetravelbetter.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/excess-baggage.jpg

[Denis The Red]

Don't think Ive ever bothered to comment on the Keane saga before but when talking about WC2002 when the Irish team played the best football of any team of a generation (include charltons) to qualify out of an incredibly tough group-to get to that WC (which might not happen again for a long long time) and hear someone say

"Sometimes standing up for your principles is more important than winning a football tournament".

Utter bol1ox. He should have kept his god dam mouth shut till after the tournament.

Yeah and still have people as tall as Niall Quinn cramped up in economy while the suits fly first class with champagne, still be training on "car parks" for pitches, still having a laugh and a joke with the media at barbecues while trying to prepare for the biggest tournament of their lives.:rolleyes: Give me a break. Look up "principles" and see it means standing up for what you believe in regardless of the concequences.
Sure, the lads done great and fair play to them and maybe we could have done better with Roy or maybe not, we'll never know, but The Genesis report exonerated both him and Mick so to say he should have kept his mouth shut is like saying the guy has no spine. I don't think so. Football in this country at that level is far better run with the help of Roy's spine.
And if he had said nothing for the sake of the World Cup, as soon as he did open his mouth people would have been lynching him for that too saying crap like "why didn't he say it sooner" and "I thought he was captain" and "he doesn't care about the Irish shirt"... oh wait, a lot of people has done that already, not least on here.;)

[danonion]

What is your definition of World Class?

Do you support any English team? edit- It's ok I see from one of your previous posts that you hate United, I assume it's a factor when your assessing Keane, although I'm sure you will claim otherwise.

My hatred of united only really developed after the chelsea title years, which basically brings Roy Keane out of the equation here. I never said he was a bad player, I'd even say he's great, but not that great. I just found him incredibly frustrating to watch, in most games he took the simple pass instead of the killer ball soooo often. That's not world class.

Because his thuggery took place on the field, it is perfectly fair to take that into account when judging him as a player as well.

In addition I felt the praise of his contribution to Ireland's WCQ campaign in the years leading up to the 02 tournament was inflated beyond reason. It is a total insult to the other 20 or so players who contributed massively to that campaign.


now that is just complete rubbish.... Im actually shaking my head in disbelieve of that opinion. I can understand peoples opinions of his personality to a certain extent but to question the man as a player shows a complete lack of any sort of football knowledge.... or just a wind up

Is dismissing a post as rubbish your usual modus operandi? He was praised on high by the English media during and (especially) after his playing career, and I feel that there were serious limitations to his game. He functioned superbly in a system that worked for United, but I would never say he was one of those players you could replace the first choice central midfielder of any team in the world with and improve the squad.

I don't much care for your manners and I don't reckon I'll miss a well lot by adding you to my ignore list.

[Razors left peg]

I didnt need the english media or anyone else to tell me he was a great player, I and the vast majority of other people could see for ourselves that he was world class by the way he dominated games at the very highest level.
I still cant believe this thread has decended to a level where his ability as a player is being questioned

[bennocelt]

The thing about Roy Keane as a overrated player and all - silly as that is
I bet 99.99% of managers and supporters then would have loved to have him play for their team

[Drumcondra 69er]

I thought he was unjustly left out of many UEFA player of the year polls. etc. He didn't have the television friendly finesse that others had but he did the simple things brilliantly and consistently. He wasn't superbly talented but was amazingly influential in a game, he could just get a grip on it like probably only Vieira could of his era.

Fair assessment for me. You would have to wonder why he was left out of all of those polls etc considering they were voted on by both journalists in some instances and coaches in others? Might it have been his disciplinary issues? At least 10 sending offs as far as I recall (a number for thuggish behaviour such as stamping on opponents, over the ball tackles, swinging punches etc.) while playing for a team that generally gets far more leniancy then others from refs is some going yet gets ignored over here. Had an English player got that record, he'd have a far worse reputation in Ireland for on field behaviour.

[DeLorean]

My hatred of united only really developed after the chelsea title years

Why's that?


I just found him incredibly frustrating to watch, in most games he took the simple pass instead of the killer ball soooo often. That's not world class.

Well I don't think anybody claims that he had the vision of Ronaldinho or Zidane, doesn't mean his other attributes didn't make him World Class. Anyway to each their own, I always thought Vieria was a tad overrated so I can't really talk.

[shakermaker1982]

After following this thread all week I've started reading Red Mist - Roy Keane and the Irish World Cup blues again and it's bringing back painful memories.

[OwlsFan]

Yes, it is an open wound that will NEVER heal until McCarthy, Keane and the fans of the time pass from the planet.

[shakermaker1982]

Yes, it is an open wound that will NEVER heal until McCarthy, Keane and the fans of the time pass from the planet.

a time machine would solve everything!

[Drumcondra 69er]

Yes, it is an open wound that will NEVER heal until McCarthy, Keane and the fans of the time pass from the planet.

I actually think it's improved recently! If we qualify for another tournament under Trap it'll put it further to bed but it'll always be talked about.

If half the country weren't slaves to Man U it might be different! :p ;)

[lionelhutz]

Less than 3 days after Iran (no need to emphasise the game's importance) :

Manchester United 2 : 0 Leciester City, November 17, 2001 http://www.redcafe.net/archives/report.php?id=278

Yes he had been out for 4 weeks, but he managed to play a full 90. He had his priorities seriously wrong.

Ive tried my best to avoid commenting on this thread but I have to respond to this post.

Roy Keane had to persuade Alex Ferguson to allow him to play in the 1st leg in Lansdowne Road cause he had been injured for the previous 4 weeks. The medical team at Old Trafford could have easily said Keane wasn't fit to play either game.

By all accounts at the time, Ferguson wasn't happy that Keane was playing at all so there was no chance he would be allowed play in the away game too. Also, McCarthy stated at the time that an agreement had been made that Keane would play the 1st leg and then go back to OT to treat the injury.

Also, I remember he didn't look fully fit in the home game. He was nowhere near his best.

[DeLorean]

a time machine would solve everything!

This should be where I come in, but alas I'm just a great pretender:(

[John83]

...Look up "principles" and see it means standing up for what you believe in regardless of the concequences...
Telling people to look up the meaning of a word you yourself don't understand is not a good way to win an argument. It is, however, an excellent way to look like a moron.

prin·ci·ple (prĭn'sə-pəl) http://content.answers.com/main/content/img/pron.gif

n.

A basic truth, law, or assumption: the principles of democracy.

A rule or standard, especially of good behavior: a man of principle.
The collectivity of moral or ethical standards or judgments: a decision based on principle rather than expediency.

A fixed or predetermined policy or mode of action.
A basic or essential quality or element determining intrinsic nature or characteristic behavior: the principle of self-preservation.
A rule or law concerning the functioning of natural phenomena or mechanical processes: the principle of jet propulsion.
Chemistry. One of the elements that compose a substance, especially one that gives some special quality or effect.
A basic source.

[John83]

Fair assessment for me. You would have to wonder why he was left out of all of those polls etc considering they were voted on by both journalists in some instances and coaches in others? Might it have been his disciplinary issues? At least 10 sending offs as far as I recall (a number for thuggish behaviour such as stamping on opponents, over the ball tackles, swinging punches etc.) while playing for a team that generally gets far more leniancy then others from refs is some going yet gets ignored over here. Had an English player got that record, he'd have a far worse reputation in Ireland for on field behaviour.
I doubt that's the case. Zidane's record is similarly poor - I can recall at least two sendings off for head butts, and his career total is about ten also*. No, I suspect Keane's exclusion from that sort of list is because he wasn't quite as technically gifted as most midfielders in his class. People over rate that sort of thing a little.

* Wikipedia says 14 total.

[Drumcondra 69er]

I doubt that's the case. Zidane's record is similarly poor - I can recall at least two sendings off for head butts, and his career total is about ten also*. No, I suspect Keane's exclusion from that sort of list is because he wasn't quite as technically gifted as most midfielders in his class. People over rate that sort of thing a little.

* Wikipedia says 14 total.

True and I had considered that when posting originally but Zidane was supremely gifted and couldn't be ignored.

That said, I feel people went too far the other way with Zidane, some of the excuses I heard put forward for his behaviour in the WC 06 final were embarrassing, it was disgraceful to react to a bit of sledging like that regardless of how much a dick Materazzi was and quite possibly cost France a second World Cup.

[Stuttgart88]

with Zidane, some of the excuses I heard put forward for his behaviour in the WC 06 final were embarrassing, Personally I reckon he lost the head, totally disgusted that he missed a great chance only a minute or two earlier, a header he put straight at Buffon. He knew at that moment he had lost the chance to win a second WC and maybe on a personal level he had lost his shot at immortality. Moments later Materazzi's sledging was just the catalyst that prompted him to let it all out.

Is that embarrassing? :)

[Denis The Red]

Telling people to look up the meaning of a word you yourself don't understand is not a good way to win an argument. It is, however, an excellent way to look like a moron.

prin·ci·ple (prĭn'sə-pəl) http://content.answers.com/main/content/img/pron.gif


n.
A basic truth, law, or assumption: the principles of democracy.

A rule or standard, especially of good behavior: a man of principle.
The collectivity of moral or ethical standards or judgments: a decision based on principle rather than expediency.

A fixed or predetermined policy or mode of action.
A basic or essential quality or element determining intrinsic nature or characteristic behavior: the principle of self-preservation.
A rule or law concerning the functioning of natural phenomena or mechanical processes: the principle of jet propulsion.
Chemistry. One of the elements that compose a substance, especially one that gives some special quality or effect.
A basic source.


Jesus, I didn't have the Oxford dictionary in front of me which clearly you do.
What part of my interpretation of the word is any different to your research on it?
Was it:

1. expediency or expedience
Noun
pl -encies or -ences
The use of methods that are advantageous rather than fair or just.

How was leaving the world cup advantageous to Roy?

Or was it:

3. A fixed or predetermined policy or mode of action?

When he clearly had a policy of wanting better professionalism for himself and his team mates.

Or even:

4. He didn't have a basic or essential quality or element determining intrinsic nature or characteristic behavior: the principle of self-preservation.

When he kept it together for the most part until he was obviously ambushed into a reaction by Mick. Would you have shown restraint if you was accused of feigning injury and not caring about playing for your country?
Do yourself a favour and go watch a game of football every now and again. Put down the book and get some fresh air, you'll feel better for it.

[Drumcondra 69er]

Personally I reckon he lost the head, totally disgusted that he missed a great chance only a minute or two earlier, a header he put straight at Buffon. He knew at that moment he had lost the chance to win a second WC and maybe on a personal level he had lost his shot at immortality. Moments later Materazzi's sledging was just the catalyst that prompted him to let it all out.

Is that embarrassing? :)

Nah, that's reasonable! ;) Still a black mark on his career though, who's to say he wouldn't have had another chance in the game or the chance to bury the winning penalty....

[John83]

Jesus, I didn't have the Oxford dictionary in front of me which clearly you do.
I had the internet (and some schooling). I'm going to make the great leap of logic that you did too. The difference is that you described having principles as standing up for your principles no matter the consequences, which is circular and takes things to logical extremes. You based your argument on that.

[tetsujin1979]

take it outside boys