Paul McShane

[eirebhoy]

Pretty much why he's a centre half tbh. He's a defender and nothing more. Full backs these days are more about attacking than defending.

[WexCar]

sunderland have recalled him from his loan spell at hull

[dr_peepee]

He played centre half last night for Hull. I only literally caught the last few minutes but the commentater said he was "Solid All Night"..... I still don't know how anyone sees him at right full.

Surprised to hear he was recalled. Will be interesting.

[tricky_colour]

I bet he won't be too pleased if he is recalled and ends up sitting on the bench :)
Mind you, he is Sunderland's second best player according to Actim to 100, and Hull's 5th best, and Irelands 4th for that matter (excludes Championship players)

[Wolfie]

I think people should make a judgement with their own eyes as opposed to the Actim 100.

[tricky_colour]

I think people should make a judgement with their own eyes as opposed to the Actim 100.

Unfortunately it is not possible to watch every player in every match with your own eyes thats why they use many people to do it.
It's easy to have one bad (or good) match cloud your judgement.
It does seem to reflect most peoples opinons quite accurately though and people who are generally beleived to be playing well tend to be at the top.
I actually think it is a very good form guide.

[eirebhoy]

As I said in the Irish abroad thread. Hull's only 2 clean sheets since October have been McShane's 2 games at centre half against Newcastle. And Newcastle have very rarely been kept scoreless this season.

[Wolfie]

Unfortunately it is not possible to watch every player in every match with your own eyes thats why they use many people to do it.
It's easy to have one bad (or good) match cloud your judgement.
It does seem to reflect most peoples opinons quite accurately though and people who are generally beleived to be playing well tend to be at the top.
I actually think it is a very good form guide.

As a form guide - fair enough.

I have to admit, I know next to nothing about the actim 100 - does it have any pretentions above being anything but a form guide?

I just think such stat gathering doesn't provide a true practical worth (or lack of) of a player and what he can contribute to a team ethic.

[irishfan86]

I think the Actim and other statistical databases can be useful, but need to be used in tandem with common sense.

I heard that Roy was becoming very reliant on technology such as this: http://www.soccerperformance.org/specialtopics/companalsystems.htm

This sort of thing can lead to the exclusion of players like Andy Reid, who will be shown on the tracking system to be doing less tracking back, tackling, etc.

Systems like those don't really detect guile and creativity too well. Instead of a penetrating ball that the defender just managed to get to, it's counted as a giveaway, for example.

[Wolfie]

I think the Actim and other statistical databases can be useful, but need to be used in tandem with common sense.

I heard that Roy was becoming very reliant on technology such as this: http://www.soccerperformance.org/specialtopics/companalsystems.htm

This sort of thing can lead to the exclusion of players like Andy Reid, who will be shown on the tracking system to be doing less tracking back, tackling, etc.

Systems like those don't really detect guile and creativity too well. Instead of a penetrating ball that the defender just managed to get to, it's counted as a giveaway, for example.

Yes - that expands on part of the point I was trying to make.

Again, to reiterate. As a form guide - I can accept and understand that.

I'm sure the statistical accuracy captured is sound, with certain methodologies applied - but would you make a practical selection of a particular player for a particular game based on the data?

Consider this scenario:

Steven Finnan crosses the ball across the bows of the Dutch defence. Jason McAteer, unmarked, shapes up to strike the ball.

Freeze the frame.

What was Jason McAteers Actim 100 score at that moment?

Did we really care or did it make a difference?

Was it really going to make a difference statistically what his score was when what was required was composure under pressure and various chains of events that led him to be right there, at that moment?

[Stuttgart88]

I think the key is that stats are quantitative but not qualitative. Applying them in tandem with common sense is a good way of putting it alright.

[an_ceannaire]

This thread is going into my bookmarks and I'll drag it up in a few years time. :)

Look at England's next big thing, Micah Richards. Put him beside John O'Shea and see how impressive he looks.

Richards:
"I am still young and I am still learning. I know I have a tendency to chase people all over the place sometimes but that is where Richard Dunne has been such a big help to me. He is always moving me into the right positions."

I'm really surprised how opinions on McShane have changed. The vast majority of centre halves of his age need to be led. At premiership/international level 99% of 21 year old centre halves need to be led. I actually don't think McShane requires an organiser beside him all that much. Unlike Phil Babb, McShane is learning a lot with every game.

I'm delighted to have Dunne and McShane as our centre backs.

Eirebhoy, what say you now??

[tetsujin1979]

Back on the bench today for Sunderland

[eirebhoy]

He came on after an hour for Nosworthy. Not often you see centre halves being subbed.

[NeilMcD]

1640: GOAL Sunderland 1-2 Aston Villa
Paul McShane almost decapitates Gabby Agbonlahor as the ball bounces on the edge of the area. The foul looks just outside but ref Mike Dean points to the spot and Gareth Barry converts.

[eirebhoy]

haha :D

[Noelys Guitar]

McShane is a trainwreck. Honest player but against quality opposition like the Italian's he will be ruthlessly exposed. Stephen Ireland ran him ragged when City beat Hull 5-0.

[Carrigaline]

Every time he touched the ball, he was booed, and they were his own supporters.

I really can't see McShane having a future at Sunderland.

[eirebhoy]

McShane is a trainwreck. Honest player but against quality opposition like the Italian's he will be ruthlessly exposed. Stephen Ireland ran him ragged when City beat Hull 5-0.
At left back in fairness. We wouldn't judge Dunne at left back.

I thought Colombia had a lot of pace and quality and McShane was motm against them.

It's a real pity he got called back from Hull. The pressure on him at Sunderland must be unreal and confidence rock bottom.

[elroy]

At left back in fairness. We wouldn't judge Dunne at left back.

I thought Colombia had a lot of pace and quality and McShane was motm against them.

It's a real pity he got called back from Hull. The pressure on him at Sunderland must be unreal and confidence rock bottom.

Wonder if Hull will try to sign him permanently now the Finnan deal looks dead. Would imagine he wouldnt cost much more than Finnan would have.

[superfrank]

Well they do have Kilbane now and he can fill in at left-back.

[shakermaker1982]

what was he thinking? Dunne is no better after his lashout.

[Stuttgart88]

I saw the Villa incident on MOTD. Dreadful defending by McShane, total loss of concentration, just like in Cardiff, at home to Serbia and quite a few other occasions. I'd have no faith in him whatsoever in a qualifier. Trainwreck indeed I'm afraid.

[FarBeag]

Same old same old with McShane.Heart on sleeve but s*it footballer.

[eirebhoy]

I saw the Villa incident on MOTD. Dreadful defending by McShane, total loss of concentration, just like in Cardiff, at home to Serbia and quite a few other occasions.
Don't agree that Wales and Serbia were loss of concentration. If anything he was the only one to react against Wales, and Serbia was more his inexperience, assuming Delaney would have been more forward up the pitch. That's just those 2 incidents though. He's obviously been involved in plenty and at fault for plenty. :)

[OwlsFan]

Yeah we're gob****es for booing the worst defender in the Premiership.

Yes, you would be. What is the point in booing a player who gives 100%? There is no doubting McShane's commitment so I can't understand why he would be booed. He doesn't pick himself for the team - his manager does. The fact that he isn't very good and plays for Sunderland is not his fault. Boo Keane who signed him and the manager who picks him. McShane does his best. I hate people who boo playera unless they're lazy and not giving it their all.

[tetsujin1979]

Hull didn't put up much of a fight in keeping him.They didn't have a choice, it was in his contract that Sunderland could recall him at any time.

[SunderlandBohs]

Yes, you would be. What is the point in booing a player who gives 100%? There is no doubting McShane's commitment so I can't understand why he would be booed. He doesn't pick himself for the team - his manager does. The fact that he isn't very good and plays for Sunderland is not his fault. Boo Keane who signed him and the manager who picks him. McShane does his best. I hate people who boo playera unless they're lazy and not giving it their all.

Sbirgia has come under fire for bring Mc****forbrains back. We booed him to get are point across. We don't want him. Its his fault we didn't get a point on saturday. Granted the foul was outside the box but what the hell was the clown doing. The lad is a joke. There is at five LOI defenders better than him. His best isn't good enough and why shouldn't fans let him know that. Well done Paul we lost the game because you can't defend or tackle and you're as slow as **** but hey at least you gave your best.

[FarBeag]

Sbirgia has come under fire for bring Mc****forbrains back. We booed him to get are point across. We don't want him. Its his fault we didn't get a point on saturday. Granted the foul was outside the box but what the hell was the clown doing. The lad is a joke. There is at five LOI defenders better than him. His best isn't good enough and why shouldn't fans let him know that. Well done Paul we lost the game because you can't defend or tackle and you're as slow as **** but hey at least you gave your best.

You’re being very harsh and unreasonable here. McShane is a limited footballer I agree but he does not deserve to be booed by his own so called fans.He does not pick himself for the team, he did not recall himself from Hull, he does not deliberately go out and play badly so he should not be slaughtered because of it. He plays to the best of his limited ability and gives 100%. I hope all Sunderland fans don’t have attitudes like you.

[NeilMcD]

I wonder the fact that he plays rubbish for Sunderland and decent for Hull have anything to do with the fans reaction to him. Am I right in saying that the Sunderland fans were harsh on Kilbane too.

[Drumcondra 69er]

I wonder the fact that he plays rubbish for Sunderland and decent for Hull have anything to do with the fans reaction to him. Am I right in saying that the Sunderland fans were harsh on Kilbane too.

Yeah, they were. They're quick to get on a players back, McShane would be better off had he been allowed stay at Hull.

[eirebhoy]

I wonder the fact that he plays rubbish for Sunderland and decent for Hull have anything to do with the fans reaction to him. Am I right in saying that the Sunderland fans were harsh on Kilbane too.
Kilbane got a very bad time off them. I don't know what I'd call an adult that would boo a guy for not being good enough but it's certainly alongside side the scum and gurriers.

[Razors left peg]

Yeah we're gob****es for booing the worst defender in the Premiership. Everything he did was terrible. His last 2 games he has played for us he cost us the points Nobody likes him!! Hull didn't put up much of a fight in keeping him. Paul if you are reading this 'Fcuk Off'.

Fans booing their own players is ridiculous, whether it be Sunderland fans booing McShane, Arsenal fans booing Eboue or England fans booing Ashley Cole just because he had the audacity to make a mistake and give away a penalty. Not sure what this achieves apart from making the lad more nervous and leading to more mistakes, shows a total lack of brain power by these fans in my opinion....

[John83]

Can I just say this: as a UCD fan, if I booed players for being ****, I'd probably have to sit in the away section where people would look at me strangely for cheering Conor Kenna. Groaning at a mistake, a yell in frustration at a player; these I can understand. Booing someone for not being good enough? Get a life.

[Diarmo]

Sunderland fans seem to have a bad reputation as regards booing their own players. Kilbane, now McShane, and I remember Keane having a go at them earlier this season as well for the same. All the same, I don't think McShane is actively trying to sabotage the club, so why boo him?

[Razors left peg]

Maybe the Sunderland fans are onto something... If Darren Gibson or Glenn Whelan dont play well against Georgia we should start booing them, Sunderland fans seem to think this makes young players improve

[Paddy Garcia]

At left back in fairness. We wouldn't judge Dunne at left back.

I thought Colombia had a lot of pace and quality and McShane was motm against them.
.


I don't recall a MOTM performace. He passed the ball directly to their strikers on a couple of occasions - unbelievably poor - also caught out of position - I do seem to recall though Kiely covering for him & pretty much turning in a MOTM performance - I do think McShane created the opportunity for him though.


Agree with the above points - stupid to boo your own player, rarely works even against the opposition - unless you count the Czechs booing Hunt who duly obliged them!

[drummerboy]

Shameful behaviour by “so-called fans”. As pointed out before its not the first time they have done this. Anton Ferdinand didnt cover himself in glory in the same incident either. Anyway I hope Sunderland fans get what they deserve. RELEGATION.

[SunderlandBohs]

Hang on a minute! He caused us a point on saturday and handed owen a goal (Not to forget the goal and pen that owen should have had) the game against Newcastle. And the less we say about the Everton game the better! If I caused **** up after **** up in my job I would get the head taken clean off me by my customers. I wouldn't expect people to be taken it easy on me saying at least he gives his best!!

[third policeman]

If I caused **** up after **** up in my job I would get the head taken clean off me by my customers. I wouldn't expect people to be taken it easy on me saying at least he gives his best!!

And I dont imagine we're being paid as much as McShane either. It goes with the turf, play well and the crowd love you, play ****e and take the consequences.

[drummerboy]

It amazes me how some fans think that by getting on young players backs they will improve them. McShane has done reasonably well at Hull and played in a team who have being doing a lot better than Sunderland. Isn't it ironic that he starts playing badly when he is in front of Sunderlands’ wonderful supporters. Obviously his confidence has being shattered playing in front of these “supporters”.

[eirebhoy]

I don't recall a MOTM performace. He passed the ball directly to their strikers on a couple of occasions - unbelievably poor - also caught out of position - I do seem to recall though Kiely covering for him & pretty much turning in a MOTM performance - I do think McShane created the opportunity for him though.


Agree with the above points - stupid to boo your own player, rarely works even against the opposition - unless you count the Czechs booing Hunt who duly obliged them!
We had this debate after the match and I can't remember it now but I thought McShane was brilliant that night. Kiely was excellent first half, McShane was good in that half imo. McShane was superb in the 2nd half though and overall motm.

[eirebhoy]

If I caused **** up after **** up in my job I would get the head taken clean off me by my customers.
You should hear Celtic park after Lee Naylor's 5th or 6th mistake in a game. Groans from everywhere. That's frustration though. I myself would find that I'd get shout out or groan when McGeady makes a mistake for Ireland because I want him to succeed so much and I can't help but get frustrated when he messes up. I've no problem with that. It's not nice to hear but we can't really help it. We're talking about booing here though. BIG difference.

[Stuttgart88]

We had this debate after the match and I can't remember it now but I thought McShane was brilliant that night. Kiely was excellent first half, McShane was good in that half imo. McShane was superb in the 2nd half though and overall motm.My recollection is that he had a good enough game, especially considering his error against Serbia. He put his head in where it hurts as he always does but Paddy is right in saying Kiely bailed him out at least once. I remember one one-on-one being directly attributable to a McShane error. That's the thing with CB, play a generally good game and make one mistake, people will think you had a good game if you get away with it (which Dunne has done a few times lately for us) or a stinker if it costs you. I feel that McShane is pretty unlucky at times - any time he gives a free away outside the box the other team seems to score from it - but I guess that's life at a high standard of football.

I notice him a lot making despairing lunging tackles in the box. Now, you could say he's gallantly trying to block shots but in my opinion (because it's a trait I recognise from my own experience as a CB) it's beacuse, like me, he got a bit lost and was trying to recover. Gary Breen always seemed the same at West Ham.

[shakermaker1982]

McShane has all the physical attributes to make it at the top level but seems to lack positional awareness and general football intelligence. I think the Sunderland fans need to be more supportive if they want him to improve. I think he could do a job at centre back if given the support (fans and manager alike) and appropriate defensive coaching.

[Razors left peg]

Ive said it before but I really think he needs to drop down a division for a couple of years while he learns to read the game properly out of the media glare of the Premiership where every small mistake gets highlighted . I do honestly believe that he can become a very good asset for us in the future.

[DeLorean]

Ive said it before but I really think he needs to drop down a division for a couple of years while he learns to read the game properly out of the media glare of the Premiership where every small mistake gets highlighted . I do honestly believe that he can become a very good asset for us in the future.

I think once he starts dropping the divisions that's him completely finished. He's 23 now so I think going somewhere to learn to read the game is not an option. He reminds me of Titus Bramble in the sense that if it can go wrong it will go wrong for him. He'll only improve by playing at the highest level available to him. Defenders generally get better with age and like Bramble, if he's mentally strong enough the mistakes will become fewer and fewer in the coming yrs, if not then he'll be dropping the divisions anyway but won't be coming back up.

[Razors left peg]

I think once he starts dropping the divisions that's him completely finished. He's 23 now so I think going somewhere to learn to read the game is not an option. He reminds me of Titus Bramble in the sense that if it can go wrong it will go wrong for him. He'll only improve by playing at the highest level available to him. Defenders generally get better with age and like Bramble, if he's mentally strong enough the mistakes will become fewer and fewer in the coming yrs, if not then he'll be dropping the divisions anyway but won't be coming back up.

As u said he is only 23, the likes of Steve Finnan and Kenny Cunningham were playing in the lower divisions at his age and had no problem getting to the top flight. There are plenty of players that have learned their trade in the lower divisions and then made it to the top flight later in their careers

[DeLorean]

As u said he is only 23, the likes of Steve Finnan and Kenny Cunningham were playing in the lower divisions at his age and had no problem getting to the top flight. There are plenty of players that have learned their trade in the lower divisions and then made it to the top flight later in their careers

Yes but their careers were a continuous progression from the lower levels. I don't think that is the same thing as a player with 2 or 3 yrs Premier Lge experience being shipped of to the lower leagues for the sole purpose of improving his game. If he's not good enough to improve his game at the level he is at he's certainly not going to playing against weaker players week in week out, regardless of the scrutiny. He seemed to have a fairly successful spell at Hull anyway in fairness from what I saw, pity he couldn't have stayed there for another bit.

[danonion]

He's slow, awkward, short and can't read the game. Why do we think he has potential? Wouldn't it be better to pin our hopes on one of the more exciting prospects in the championship that have yet to prove that they are utter rubbish?

At least Bramble showed flashes of brilliance when at Ipswich. McShane wasn't even any good in the games he got praise for, am I the only one that thought he was rubbish against the Czechs?