NI boss targets Republic's Gibson

[RogerMilla]

They stopped him because he had no connection or allegiance to Qatar and was basically selling his nationality to play for Qatar: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/africa/3523266.stm

that pretty much clears it up for me , it means that even if we make irish citizens of the lads born in the six counties then fifa could later come round and declare them ineligible ? no ?

[stiofain]

Darron Gibson was in the squad for the game against San Marino, which was of course a competive game. Surely UEFA / FIFA would have stepped in then if there was any doubt over his eligibility? Had he appeared in that game, he'd have been tied to the ROI without any doubt.

I can understand Northern Ireland's fustration and i do sympathesise, but if the lad wants to play for ROI, then they'll do well to let it lie.

[RogerMilla]

In an example say of a Polish born footballer with an Irish Passport, uncapped at any level for Poland, is selected to play for Ireland.
Then FIFA says that he has to have at least 2 years residency here.

exactly so see my other post , we could have a nightmare scenario when lads from the north would be declared ineligible for us. I hope the Fai and dept. of foreign affairs are on the ball here.

[Wolfie]

I hope the Fai and dept. of foreign affairs are on the ball here.

The Laurel and Hardy of efficiency and organisation must surely have this covered.

[geysir]

exactly so see my other post , we could have a nightmare scenario when lads from the north would be declared ineligible for us. I hope the Fai and dept. of foreign affairs are on the ball here.
It could happen but it would take quite a revamp of existing regulations.
Not just an interpretation issue.
Young lads in the North are entitled to Irish citizenship by merely being born on the Island.
This is not disputed by the IFA.
At Present FIFA acknowledge that a lad born in the North to have the right to have dual citizenship. So the rules for players who have dual citizenship apply at present.
Those rules are clearly laid out, that a lad can change before the age of 21 as long as they have not been capped at senior "A" level.

Can we trust the FAI? That's a hard ask.
But to their credit so far they give the appearance of playing a cute diplomatic game.
Can we trust John Delaney to pull off an act of audacious skulduggery if need be? in that I think we have the right man.

[EalingGreen]

There is absolutly no hint of an implication that Metrostars fabricated the letter. He merely reposted the letter that was posted in another forum.
He stated that quite clearly and what forum the letter was posted.

Even if the letter did come from the FAI, it is tripe.

Sorry, I took the meaning of your use of "supposed" up wrongly i.e. that you were wondering whether it was authentic or not. Not a problem.

As for the reliability of a letter from that source, you may well be correct, but as I've tried to point out, it is irrelevant to Gibson's case whether Stan picks him in a friendly or a competitive match.

We know Gibson is eligible for the Senior IFA team, but we do not know whether he is eligible for the senior FAI team, nor will we until FIFA gives a definitive answer.

[EalingGreen]

The FAI are under no doubts about Darron's international future.

Sunday Mirror - A spokesperson for the FAI, responding to the Worthington story said " Darron has been with us from under-age level and is completely commited to the Republic set-up. He has no interest in playing for ther North.

I think you will find that the ruling was made by Fifa's Heinz Tannler, Director of the Legal Division, and Corina Luck, Head of General Legal, in a joint letter to the IFA, which was copied to the FAI," in October 2006.

"In it, they informed the IFA that 'the existing situation in Northern Ireland allows players to choose whether they wish to represent Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland'

Worthington needs to stop the begging and go and find a few more German/Englishmen like Maik Taylor to represent 'Are We A Country'

Your faith in the FAI, though touching, does not appear to be shared by all the people who actually live within its jurisdiction, e.g:
Originally Posted by geysir
"Even if the letter did come from the FAI, it is tripe"
OR
Subsequently posted by RogerMilla
"no need for a qualification in the above sentence, the fact that it came from the FAI increases its chances of tripeness!"

As for the Sunday Mirror quotation, as a Statement of Fact, it may be unimpeachible. However, it does not actually state he is eligible for the senior FAI team (never mind demonstrate the means by which he is so eligible).

As for your October 2006 letter (never made public in full by the FAI, afaik), if that was the final word on the matter, why, subsequent to the IFA requiring clarification from FIFA in early 2007, do FIFA still require further information from the FAI as of August 2007?

As for your final "dig" at the IFA and Big Maik, all I will say is that FIFA are perfectly happy with his eligibility to line up for NI and it is they who have the final say on such matters.

Which means that whatever way FIFA decides in the Gibson case, this NI fan will accept their determination. Can we say the same for ROI fans? Even the ones from NI? ;)

[EalingGreen]

Darron Gibson was in the squad for the game against San Marino, which was of course a competive game. Surely UEFA / FIFA would have stepped in then if there was any doubt over his eligibility? Had he appeared in that game, he'd have been tied to the ROI without any doubt.

I can understand Northern Ireland's fustration and i do sympathesise, but if the lad wants to play for ROI, then they'll do well to let it lie.

Stan could include Maradona, or even Madonna, in his squad, should he choose. It does not become pertinent until the player actually takes to the field.

As for your second point, it is nice to see that at least some fans have an appreciation of the IFA's predicament here. Which is that no Association, especially one with such scarce resources and playing population, is going to stand by idly whilst young players they have developed suddenly decide, for whatever reason or none, that they were going to opt for another Association, before their eligibility to do so had even been definitively established. The same principle would apply whether they were opting for ROI or Brazil, England or Bhutan.

In this particular case, the IFA has no gripe against Gibson personally, as evidenced by the fact that they will still offer him the chance* to play international football should FIFA exclude from playing for the ROI.


* - Of course, whether he accepts that chance or not must be entirely up to him.

[EalingGreen]

Looks like we might be able to put this to bed!

http://www.eleven-a-side.com/boysingreen/irish_soccer_detail.asp?newsid=28947

Hopefully Stan gives him a run out...

It is not Stan or the FAI which is the final arbiter in disputed cases, it is FIFA. And they haven't decided yet. Therefore, Stan's giving him a run-out in a friendly establishes nothing. Though his selecting him for a competitive match would be a different thing altogether, if for no other reason than that the opposition would need to be satisfied that all was in order!

[cavan_fan]

Ealing, you keep saying FIFA havent decided and there is some major consideration ongoing. But FIFA have said

The existing situation in Northern Ireland allows players to choose whether they wish to represent Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland

Is this not a decision? Are you relying on the 'existing situation' line?

[EalingGreen]

we could have a nightmare scenario when lads from the north would be declared ineligible for us. I hope the Fai and dept. of foreign affairs are on the ball here.

Surely the nightmare for you would be if lads from the South were suddenly eligible for NI (or some other country)? We'd take Shay Given, who's a "Northerner" as it is...;)

As for the involvement of the Dept. of Foreign Affairs (aside from the irony that you don't mean the Dept. of Irish Affairs!), as I keep saying, FIFA do not deal with Governments, they deal with their own Member Associations on matters such as these.

Still, I know from some of your previous posts that you have absolute confidence in the competence of the FAI when dealing with such matters...:D

[Torn-Ado]

Have a look at this. It's interesting how opinions of his elligibility differ:

http://ourweecountry.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=15485&st=1155

I was under the assumption if he did play for us against Denmark then he couldn't switch back to NI no matter what's said by EalingGreen on that thread.


I would be equally shocked if FIFA cleared him to play for the splinter group to the south

AHAHAHAHA

These fellas crack me up

[cavan_fan]

Surely the nightmare for you would be if lads from the South were suddenly eligible for NI (or some other country)? We'd take Shay Given, who's a "Northerner" as it is...;)

As for the involvement of the Dept. of Foreign Affairs (aside from the irony that you don't mean the Dept. of Irish Affairs!), as I keep saying, FIFA do not deal with Governments, they deal with their own Member Associations on matters such as these.

Still, I know from some of your previous posts that you have absolute confidence in the competence of the FAI when dealing with such matters...:D

I am happy that any ROI player that wants to play for NI can do so. I'll happily petition FIFA to make it so. I'm fairly confident no-one who is close to our team would jump, especially Given

[geysir]

I see that we are back to normality now.
The point you refuse to accept is that Darron at present is 100% FIFA rubber stamped eligible to play for the Ireland senior team.
My source on this matter is FIFA.

My main interest in this matter is that footballers born in NI who feel so inclined should be able to declare for the Irish team.
I know that this matters deeply to many born in the North and this should be respected as is the nationality issue in the GFA.

Should this situation change with some regulation being introduced tying such kids to the federation they grow up under, their natural civil rights would be trampled upon. I would consider that to be a serious injustice.

If it was a simple matter of poaching youngsters away from the IFA, I have no interest in that.

[EalingGreen]

Ealing, you keep saying FIFA havent decided and there is some major consideration ongoing. But FIFA have said


Is this not a decision? Are you relying on the 'existing situation' line?

No, that sentence (afaik) is an extract from a letter* which was sent to the FAI in October 1986.

However, when the IFA learned of it, they considered that FIFA were misapplying their own rules to the situation vis-a-vis NI-born players representing the FAI at senior level.

Consequently, they appealed to FIFA at the beginning of the year. FIFA has not yet made a final determination in respect of the IFA's submission; rather they have been engaged in seeking further information from the two Associations, with the FAI apparently yet to reply to FIFA's latest request.


* - I think I'm right in saying that the FAI has never made the full version of the letter public?

[Hibs4Ever]

Christ that "ourweecountry" website has some SERIOUS sh!te talk on it

[EalingGreen]

I see that we are back to normality now.
The point you refuse to accept is that Darron at present is 100% FIFA rubber stamped eligible to play for the Ireland senior team.
My source on this matter is FIFA.

My main interest in this matter is that footballers born in NI who feel so inclined should be able to declare for the Irish team.
I know that this matters deeply to many born in the North and this should be respected as is the nationality issue in the GFA.

Should this situation change with some regulation being introduced tying such kids to the federation they grow up under, their natural civil rights would be trampled upon. I would consider that to be a serious injustice.

If it was a simple matter of poaching youngsters away from the IFA, I have no interest in that.

Then you with your (unnamed and attributed) source clearly know more about this than Howard Wells, CEO of the IFA who has been working on this for months and who was of this opinion yesterday:

"Worthington's view is shared by Irish FA Chief Executive Howard Wells who is adamant, under FIFA rules, that the Londonderry lad does not qualify to play for a team currently sitting third in Group D behind Germany and the Czech Republic.

Article 15 of the FIFA Statues states that qualification to play international football depends on one of four criteria being fulfilled:

lThe player was born on the territory of the relevant Association.

lHis biological mother or biological father was born on the territory of the relevant Association.

lHis grandmother or grandfather was born on the territory of the relevant Association.

lHe has lived continuously for at least two years on the territory of the relevant Association.

Gibson ticks all those boxes - for Northern Ireland.

On that basis, Irish FA chiefs and boss Worthington fully expect FIFA to rule that Gibson is ineligible to play for the Republic and are eagerly awaiting the decision"

As for the rest of your post, there are a few youngsters in Belfast, no doubt the sons of good "Britons" like Billy Hutchinson, who walk around in England shirts. As such, they would like to represent England (for some unfathomable reason :eek:) Tough! If they are not eligible under FIFA Regs, they can't.

And the GFA, "civil rights" or "Natural Justice" have sod all to do with eligibility to play international football. To do so, you need to be selected by a National Association, acting in accordance with the Regulations and requirements laid down by FIFA. Any country, government or Association which doesn't like that knows what they may do - set up their own organisation (or join the GAA? ;))

As for your last point about "poaching", that is not the issue (though it may exacerbate the situation, where it appears to have gone on).

[EalingGreen]

I am happy that any ROI player that wants to play for NI can do so. I'll happily petition FIFA to make it so. I'm fairly confident no-one who is close to our team would jump, especially Given

Actually, although there were quite a few from the Free State who formerly did choose to represent the IFA - see http://nifootball.blogspot.com/2006/10/dual-internationalists.html for more details - I wasn't being entirely serious in my post!

Personally, I'm quite happy with the basic premise that if you come from NI you play for NI, and if you come from ROI you play for ROI. Oh that life were so simple...

[geysir]

A already stated FIFA regard NI born as having dual national eligibility, that is the status quo ruling at present. The relevant FIFA rules for dual nationals apply.
When the FIFA committee accepted Darron's declaration for Ireland then that means the declaration is rubberstamped.
That is the source.
Howard Wells is in conflict with that. Until FIFA say otherwise Darron's declaration stays rubberstamped.
Howard Wells interpretation of FIFA regulation is just that, an interpretation which conflicts with FIFA's current ruling.
If Darron is capped on Wed. he is tied.

[EalingGreen]

A already stated FIFA regard NI born as having dual national eligibility, that is the status quo ruling at present. The relevant FIFA rules for dual nationals apply.
When the FIFA committee accepted Darron's declaration for Ireland then that means the declaration is rubberstamped.
That is the source.
Howard Wells is in conflict with that. Until FIFA say otherwise Darron's declaration stays rubberstamped.
Howard Wells interpretation of FIFA regulation is just that, an interpretation which conflicts with FIFA's current ruling.
If Darron is capped on Wed. he is tied.

Whatever you say, Boss. :confused:

[co. down green]

No, that sentence (afaik) is an extract from a letter* which was sent to the FAI in October 1986.

However, when the IFA learned of it, they considered that FIFA were misapplying their own rules to the situation vis-a-vis NI-born players representing the FAI at senior level.

Consequently, they appealed to FIFA at the beginning of the year. FIFA has not yet made a final determination in respect of the IFA's submission; rather they have been engaged in seeking further information from the two Associations, with the FAI apparently yet to reply to FIFA's latest request.


* - I think I'm right in saying that the FAI has never made the full version of the letter public?

eg

You seem confused.

The letter sent by FIFA clarifying the right of Northern born players to represent Ireland was actually sent to the IFA in October 2006 and the FAI were copied in on the letter. The letter followed a request from the IFA concerning players representing their country at international level. The letter from Heinz Tannler, Director of FIFA's Legal Division, and Corina Luck, Head of their General Legal department stated 'the existing situation in Northern Ireland allows players to choose whether they wish to represent Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland'."

So i'm not sure what you mean when you say ' when the IFA learned of it ', as the confirmation letter of October 20th was sent to them.

You would be better asking the IFA for a copy of the letter as it was sent last October.

[danonion]

N.I isn't a country and only exists as a footballing side because it was formed before FIFAs laws on such things. So to try and apply these laws is fair how?

[geysir]

Whatever you say, Boss. :confused:

Take it up with FIFA, if you have a disrespect for their rulings.

As for Howard Wells, I have serious doubts about the guy's intelligence.
He is basing his whole arguement on this document.
http://access.fifa.com/documents/static/regulations/PS%20901%20EN.pdf
Clearly this document does not relate to footballers born in the North who wish to "avail", for want of a better word, of their civil right for Irish citizenship.
This document refers to a player taking up a new nationality as in Brazilians suddenly deciding they want to be Qatarians.

[Maroon 7]

Actually, although there were quite a few from the Free State who formerly did choose to represent the IFA - see http://nifootball.blogspot.com/2006/10/dual-internationalists.html for more details - I wasn't being entirely serious in my post!

Personally, I'm quite happy with the basic premise that if you come from NI you play for NI, and if you come from ROI you play for ROI. Oh that life were so simple...

Unfortunately life isn't that simple and it would be a disgrace for any Irish citizen through birth to be denied the chance to play for what he perceives to be his national team.

I can't see FIFA wishing to get involved in what they know is a sensitive case as far as nationality goes on this island. I'm pretty sure they'd like to leave it up to the individual to decide where his footballing allegiance lies given the circumstances on the island regarding citizenship.

I think it's very sad that you see posters on OWC labelling Gibson a "sectarian bigot" just because he wants to play for what he sees as his national side. I believe Chris Baird also comes from a nationalist background but opted to play for NI which is fair enough. It's his decision and it should be respected but equally so should Gibson's decision.

Even if FIFA were to rule against Gibson I could not see it standing up under legal challenge should Gibson or other interested parties go down that route.

[TheJamaicanP.M.]

Unfortunately life isn't that simple and it would be a disgrace for any Irish citizen through birth to be denied the chance to play for what he perceives to be his national team.

I can't see FIFA wishing to get involved in what they know is a sensitive case as far as nationality goes on this island. I'm pretty sure they'd like to leave it up to the individual to decide where his footballing allegiance lies given the circumstances on the island regarding citizenship.

Even if FIFA were to rule against Gibson I could not see it standing up under legal challenge should Gibson or other interested parties go down that route.

Agree 100%. Its as simple as that.

Ealing Green is talking pure nonsense. As for Howard Wells, I think we've established that he isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer.;)

[SolitudeRed]

Christ that "ourweecountry" website has some SERIOUS sh!te talk on it

Never been on it but I've heard that "ourweeminds" would be a more appropriate title for that particular website:)

[geysir]

Here FIFA's legal dept ruled on Samuel ineligibility for T&T
http://www.guardian.co.tt/archives/2005-11-03/sports4.html

The article used for reference is article 15 in the FIFA statutes.
This is the same article that is used to rule on Irish dual nationals.

There is no way that Darron could play for Ireland unless his transfer request has been fully proccessed by FIFA's Players’ Status Committee

[co. down green]

Here FIFA's legal dept ruled on Samuel ineligibility for T&T
http://www.guardian.co.tt/archives/2005-11-03/sports4.html

The article used for reference is article 15 in the FIFA statutes.
This is the same article that is used to rule on Irish dual nationals.

There is no way that Darron could play for Ireland unless his transfer request has been fully proccessed by FIFA's Players’ Status Committee

Strange them that the same Heinz Tannler, director, legal division for FIFA, (mentioned in the above ruling) told the IFA in October last year that 'the existing situation in Northern Ireland allows players to choose whether they wish to represent Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland'

If there was any ambiguity surrounding Northern players representing Ireland there would have been some contact surrounding players like Armagh's Henry McStay or Derry's Saul Deeny playing competitively in the u21 Euro championship qualifiers in 2005 & thus being tied to Ireland for the rest of their careers.

[Fergie's Son]

I appreciate Ealing Green's comments and his willingness to post on this board. After reading the comments at OWC I wonder how welcoming they are to those of a different persuasion? Based on what I read, not very.

That being said, I think while there is some ambiguity in FIFA's stance it seems, based on the weight of evidence, that we can safely make the following conclusions:

1. A player may switch from one country to another, if eligible, before he turns 21 assuming that he has not played an "A" game for the original country.

2. A scheduled senior international friendly would qualify as such an "A" game. Aiden McGeady is a great example with playing in the Community Tournament London several years ago.

So, Gibson has never played for the North in anything resembling an "A" game. He is, by virture of agreements executed between two countries a full citizen of the Republic of Ireland. He has chosen, pursuant to FIFA's mandate, to represent the Republic of Ireland.

If he is capped on Wednesday all it will do is confirm that he is eligible for the Republic and that he will never play for Northern Ireland at a senior level.

[geysir]

Strange them that the same Heinz Tannler, director, legal division for FIFA, (mentioned in the above ruling) told the IFA in October last year that 'the existing situation in Northern Ireland allows players to choose whether they wish to represent Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland'

If there was any ambiguity surrounding Northern players representing Ireland there would have been some contact surrounding players like Armagh's Henry McStay or Derry's Saul Deeny playing competitively in the u21 Euro championship qualifiers in 2005 & thus being tied to Ireland for the rest of their careers.
Nothing strange there, except the illusion within the "Wee Minds" that the FAI have within their vaults a secret letter from Heinz Tannler that reveals the hidden agenda of the conspirators who are out to erode the influence of the IFA

They (Henry & Saul) only get tied when they reach 21 or have played at "A" Level for Ireland.
Samuel was tied to England because he was over 21 when he tried to switch to T&T

[EalingGreen]

eg

You seem confused.

The letter sent by FIFA clarifying the right of Northern born players to represent Ireland was actually sent to the IFA in October 2006 and the FAI were copied in on the letter. The letter followed a request from the IFA concerning players representing their country at international level. The letter from Heinz Tannler, Director of FIFA's Legal Division, and Corina Luck, Head of their General Legal department stated 'the existing situation in Northern Ireland allows players to choose whether they wish to represent Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland'."

So i'm not sure what you mean when you say ' when the IFA learned of it ', as the confirmation letter of October 20th was sent to them.

You would be better asking the IFA for a copy of the letter as it was sent last October.

My mistake: I had thought the letter was sent to the FAI, with a copy to the IFA, not the other way round. Nonetheless, my point stands, which is that on receipt of the letter, the IFA considered that FIFA was misapplying its Regs in the case of NI-born individuals opting to represent the ROI and so took it up with them.

At the very least, they must have raised some doubt in the minds of FIFA, otherwise FIFA would not require several months (and counting) to tell the IFA that they (the IFA) were wrong and that the letter stood. And why would they contact both Associations to require further information from them if they (FIFA) were still so sure of their ground, as outlined in the October 06 letter?

[EalingGreen]

Take it up with FIFA, if you have a disrespect for their rulings.

As for Howard Wells, I have serious doubts about the guy's intelligence.
He is basing his whole arguement on this document.
http://access.fifa.com/documents/static/regulations/PS%20901%20EN.pdf
Clearly this document does not relate to footballers born in the North who wish to "avail", for want of a better word, of their civil right for Irish citizenship.
This document refers to a player taking up a new nationality as in Brazilians suddenly deciding they want to be Qatarians.

My whole point is that the IFA have taken it up with FIFA and FIFA have yet to reply definitively - even after several months.

As for Howard Wells, there are many terms I could use to describe him :eek:, but "unintelligent" is not one. He's actually rather a shrewd operator, who is not usually prone to making public statements which could rebound and bite him on the arse. Besides, he will doubtless have taken legal advice on the matter.

[EalingGreen]

Unfortunately life isn't that simple and it would be a disgrace for any Irish citizen through birth to be denied the chance to play for what he perceives to be his national team.

I can't see FIFA wishing to get involved in what they know is a sensitive case as far as nationality goes on this island. I'm pretty sure they'd like to leave it up to the individual to decide where his footballing allegiance lies given the circumstances on the island regarding citizenship.

I think it's very sad that you see posters on OWC labelling Gibson a "sectarian bigot" just because he wants to play for what he sees as his national side. I believe Chris Baird also comes from a nationalist background but opted to play for NI which is fair enough. It's his decision and it should be respected but equally so should Gibson's decision.

Even if FIFA were to rule against Gibson I could not see it standing up under legal challenge should Gibson or other interested parties go down that route.

I agree that life is not simple and believe it or not, I have a degree of sympathy with someone in Gibson's position. However, if he's not eligible to represent the FAI under FIFA's Rules, then he's not eligible. And whatever Geysir and Co.Down Green etc think, I really don't think Gibson's case is clear cut.

As for FIFA's declining to get involved, this is not like, say, the Tevez case, where they refused to get involved in what was merely a commercial dispute between Joorabchian and WHU; on the contrary, they guard very jealously their jurisdiction over international football - in this case, over player eligibility.
As such, the individual players are positively the last people they will leave such decisions to, since every player from a crap country who was good enough would find a means of playing for a good country! (Or could be seduced by financial considerations)
Besides, with 208 Members (more than the UN, for example), Ireland is by no means the most intractible or sensitive situation they have to deal with, never mind the only one! (Korea? Iraq? Iran? India/Pakistan? The Balkans?)

As for those individuals on OWC who have abused Gibson with unpleasant epithets, I can assure you that they are actually a minority, even if they stand out. Following the news over the weekend that Worthington was trying to persuade Gibson back to NI, the majority of posters either expressed no opposition or welcomed the prospect.

As for FIFA's final determination being appealed in the Courts, any challenger is going to need deep pockets and be prepared to lose, since FIFA hardly ever lose such cases, particularly if it involves political interference. (Their stock tactic is just to say to the aggrieved Association: "Tough. If you don't like it, you don't have to be a Member, you may go elsewhere and form your own governing body." - Works every time!)

[EalingGreen]

Agree 100%. Its as simple as that.

Ealing Green is talking pure nonsense. As for Howard Wells, I think we've established that he isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer.;)

My, my, FIFA should be employing some of you guys, if you can make things simple that they're taking months over!

As for me, I have freely acknowledged that the FAI's case has a certain logic to it. However, that is not the same as saying it will prevail. I can also see the IFA's case.

As for Wells, you've not "established" anything.

P.S. Pls stop slagging off Wells on this issue, since I feel obliged to defend him and that's not something I'm otherwise comfortable with! :(

[EalingGreen]

Never been on it but I've heard that "ourweeminds" would be a more appropriate title for that particular website:)

You've "heard"? What, can you not use a computer to see for yourself? :confused:

Go on, try it! You may not like it, but what the hell, there's antibiotics will clear up anything you catch from it ;)

[EalingGreen]

Here FIFA's legal dept ruled on Samuel ineligibility for T&T
http://www.guardian.co.tt/archives/2005-11-03/sports4.html

The article used for reference is article 15 in the FIFA statutes.
This is the same article that is used to rule on Irish dual nationals.

There is no way that Darron could play for Ireland unless his transfer request has been fully proccessed by FIFA's Players’ Status Committee

I don't know how this has any application to Gibson's case (as you appear to indicate yourself in your later post, #81).

There was no doubt about Samuels as to the player's eligibility for both T&T, where he was born, and for England, where he was brought up. However, having represented England up to U-21 level, he was not eligible to switch to represent T&T in the 2006 World Cup, since he didn't apply to switch until too late (i.e, after his 21st birthday).

None of this applies to Gibson, since he is still under 21, so if eligible to represent the FAI, then there can be no bar to his switching.

The real question is whether he is actually eligible for the ROI (in addition to NI), by virtue of his Irish citizenship, or whether he is not eligible, by virtue of his not fulfilling any of the four additional requirements (born in the FAI's jurisdiction, having a parent born w.i. the jurisdiction, or a grandparent, or having resided for two years continuously w.i. the jurisdiction).

[lopez]

(I know you're all secretly missing me, so here goes! ;))
Really? :rolleyes: I'd prefer it if you f*cked off back to ourweeminds.

[EalingGreen]

If there was any ambiguity surrounding Northern players representing Ireland there would have been some contact surrounding players like Armagh's Henry McStay or Derry's Saul Deeny playing competitively in the u21 Euro championship qualifiers in 2005 & thus being tied to Ireland for the rest of their careers.

Not necessarily. For this to be tested, an interested party (either the IFA, or the ROI's opponents?) would have needed to query the player's participation with FIFA. My guess is that the ROI's opponents will have been unaware and (afaik) the IFA attempted to resolve this with the FAI (Remember this was still a relatively new development, involving "minor" players).

However, it was when their "overtures" to the FAI were unsuccessful, and the number and stature of the players concerned looked like increasing, the IFA became sufficiently concerned to take it up with FIFA.

And you've also got to remember that FIFA will have had no experience of the situation, either, since it was really only in Kerr's time that the FAI discontinued the (1950 FIFA-negotiated) Gentlemans Agreement that neither Irish Association would select the "other's" players.

And since FIFA does not actually revolve round the affairs of one little island on the westernmost edge of an ocean, it is hardly any wonder it's taking them a little time to get round to this topic...;)

(Besides, Deeney and McStay never looked like representing NI's senior team, never mind the ROI's, so their case was somewhat moot. The point about Gibson is that he will likely turn out to be good enough to play full international football, and maybe Kane and O'Connor, as well)

[dcfcsteve]

Yet another case of the IFA throwing their toys out of the pram when a nationalist player decalarses for the Republic. Oh boo-hoo...

Gibson wants to play for the Republic. As an Irish passport holder, that is his right. End of story.

I can't believe Northern Ireland's fans and management are so desparate that they're expending so much energy on this, and are effectively having to resort to press-ganging unwilling players in the media. Laughable...... :o

[co. down green]

My mistake: I had thought the letter was sent to the FAI, with a copy to the IFA, not the other way round. Nonetheless, my point stands, which is that on receipt of the letter, the IFA considered that FIFA was misapplying its Regs in the case of NI-born individuals opting to represent the ROI and so took it up with them.

At the very least, they must have raised some doubt in the minds of FIFA, otherwise FIFA would not require several months (and counting) to tell the IFA that they (the IFA) were wrong and that the letter stood. And why would they contact both Associations to require further information from them if they (FIFA) were still so sure of their ground, as outlined in the October 06 letter?

So, the IFA decided to raise the legibility issue last year (even though Northern born players have been representing Ireland at competitive u21 level for years prior to their raising of the issue & without any interventions from UEFA or FIFA or protests from the IFA ) and were given their answer by FIFA's most senior legal brain, Heinz Tannler who said " 'the existing situation in Northern Ireland allows players to choose whether they wish to represent Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland'.

The IFA then seem to have claimed that FIFA were wrong in their determination, eventhough 'the existing situation' had been in operation prior to their request - Saul Deeny, Henry McStay, Kevin Deery etc..u21 caps.

I think you will find the previous determination, is still the determination and they posturing of the IFA is simply a way to try and save face. The IFA pronouncements were about a big decision by April, then it was May, then June etc.. it won't happen because the FIFA rule regarding players from the North of Ireland playing in the FAI set-up stands.

Worthington is simply joining the witch hunt of young Gibson and the other lads and that in turn is leading to your supporters over on 'Are We A Country' making dangerous comments like this "In my view the reason many of these defectors go to the South is Political. Basically they are sectarian bigots"

The legibility issue is no more an issue today than it was for James Quigley from Derry who played competitive u21 football for Ireland over 10 years ago or for Eugene Ferry, Mark McKeever, Mark Mukendi or Gerard Crossley.

P.S. Uefa seem happy enough with Darron's international choice

http://www.uefa.com/competitions/euro/players/player=74714/index.html

[EalingGreen]

I appreciate Ealing Green's comments and his willingness to post on this board. After reading the comments at OWC I wonder how welcoming they are to those of a different persuasion? Based on what I read, not very.

That being said, I think while there is some ambiguity in FIFA's stance it seems, based on the weight of evidence, that we can safely make the following conclusions:

1. A player may switch from one country to another, if eligible, before he turns 21 assuming that he has not played an "A" game for the original country.

2. A scheduled senior international friendly would qualify as such an "A" game. Aiden McGeady is a great example with playing in the Community Tournament London several years ago.

So, Gibson has never played for the North in anything resembling an "A" game. He is, by virture of agreements executed between two countries a full citizen of the Republic of Ireland. He has chosen, pursuant to FIFA's mandate, to represent the Republic of Ireland.

If he is capped on Wednesday all it will do is confirm that he is eligible for the Republic and that he will never play for Northern Ireland at a senior level.


As regards your opening point, some posters on OWC are not very welcoming to those of "a different persuasion" (as you term it). Sadly, that's the way of these things in a free world. That said, the active membership includes many more people, from many more persuasions than a casual browser might appreciate.

http://ourweecountry.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=19080
For example, Paxter, the guy who opened the above thread asking where he could get an NI flag, is a Catholic who has followed NI for many years. Likewise the first respondent, Belfast Owl, who as well as being a fervent GAA fan, was formerly a ROI fan (I think), now describes himself as NI's "No.1 Convert"

Besides, this Board has its share of charmless oafs, not least Lopez, who stirred himself to make this illuminating one-line contribution to the debate, directed towards me:
"I'd prefer it if you f*cked off back to ourweeminds"

As for the substantive content of your post, your first numbered point is undoubtedly correct and your second numbered point may be so (though it's not strictly relevant to the Gibson case, since McGeady's ancestry undoubtedly makes him eligible for ROI)

However, whilst there is no doubting the validity of Gibson's Irish citizenship, it is as yet unclear (to me at least) whether that alone is sufficient to make him eligible to represent the FAI at football in the absence of his also complying with at least one of FIFA's four "further" tests (i.e. born/parent/grandparent/residence within the Irish Republic)

As for your penultimate point, his selection on Wednesday night will merely confirm that Stan Staunton (and by extension the FAI) considers him eligible for the ROI at senior level. They may be correct, but that is not the same as proving he is eligible. Countries have picked ineligible players before.

P.S. You may well be correct that Gibson may never play a full international for NI. But should that prove to be the case, that will be his choice rather than the IFA's. It will be interesting to see whether he maintains that stance should FIFA eventually determine that he is not actually eligible for the ROI! ;)

[lopez]

...Besides, this Board has its share of charmless oafs, not least Lopez, who stirred himself to make this illuminating one-line contribution to the debate, directed towards me:
"I'd prefer it if you f*cked off back to ourweeminds"...And you'll find you'll get the same message from the heartless bigots at FIFA, UEFA, etc. :D

[EalingGreen]

Yet another case of the IFA throwing their toys out of the pram when a nationalist player decalarses for the Republic. Oh boo-hoo...

Gibson wants to play for the Republic. As an Irish passport holder, that is his right. End of story.

I can't believe Northern Ireland's fans and management are so desparate that they're expending so much energy on this, and are effectively having to resort to press-ganging unwilling players in the media. Laughable...... :o

The IFA has no problem with Nationalists playing for NI; indeed, they successfully lobbied FIFA to allow NI players to travel and compete under an Irish Passport only, should they choose. Similarly, they have no problem with Gibson playing for NI, despite his declared preference, otherwise Worthy would not be trying to persuade him. Indeed, they have no problem whatever with NI-born Nationalists playing for the ROI, provided that they (the IFA) are satisfied that the players are eligible.

However, in the case of Gibson, they are not so satisfied, so they have turned to FIFA for clarification. It may surprise you to know, but such disputes arise all the time amongst FIFA's 208 Member Associations, so the IFA is hardly being uniquely "childish" (to borrow your perjorative imagery).

I have no doubt that if the IFA risked losing players to another Association, including the other British ones, they would take similar action to protect their interests. As, indeed, would the FAI.

And I wouldn't be quite so dogmatic about the outcome of the Gibson case, either; otherwise, the laugh might just be on you! :cool:

[EalingGreen]

So, the IFA decided to raise the legibility issue last year (even though Northern born players have been representing Ireland at competitive u21 level for years prior to their raising of the issue & without any interventions from UEFA or FIFA or protests from the IFA ) and were given their answer by FIFA's most senior legal brain, Heinz Tannler who said " 'the existing situation in Northern Ireland allows players to choose whether they wish to represent Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland'.

The IFA then seem to have claimed that FIFA were wrong in their determination, eventhough 'the existing situation' had been in operation prior to their request - Saul Deeny, Henry McStay, Kevin Deery etc..u21 caps.

I think you will find the previous determination, is still the determination and they posturing of the IFA is simply a way to try and save face. The IFA pronouncements were about a big decision by April, then it was May, then June etc.. it won't happen because the FIFA rule regarding players from the North of Ireland playing in the FAI set-up stands.

Worthington is simply joining the witch hunt of young Gibson and the other lads and that in turn is leading to your supporters over on 'Are We A Country' making dangerous comments like this "In my view the reason many of these defectors go to the South is Political. Basically they are sectarian bigots"

The legibility issue is no more an issue today than it was for James Quigley from Derry who played competitive u21 football for Ireland over 10 years ago or for Eugene Ferry, Mark McKeever, Mark Mukendi or Gerard Crossley.

P.S. Uefa seem happy enough with Darron's international choice

http://www.uefa.com/competitions/euro/players/player=74714/index.html

Notwithstanding that one or two individuals such as Quigley may have slipped through the net initially, it was not so many years as you indicate before the IFA attempted to address their concerns by taking it up with the FAI, in an attempt to resolve the situation amicably, a process which inevitably took time.

Thereafter, for an organisation which normally moves at a glacial pace, they actually moved reasonably quickly by their own standards, to take the matter to FIFA. It is FIFA who have sat on this issue for months since, apparently not least because they are still awaiting information from the FAI.

As for Worthington joining in a witch hunt, that really is a silly point - witchhunters invariably seek to burn their victims when they find them, not invite them to join them at play! Therefore, to try an associate him with one isolated and unrepresentative comment on an entirely unofficial message board is crass and puerile.

Finally, it is not for UEFA to determine Gibson's eligibility. Besides, the information in the link you posted was most likely supplied by the FAI...:rolleyes:

[Fergie's Son]

As for the substantive content of your post, your first numbered point is undoubtedly correct and your second numbered point may be so (though it's not strictly relevant to the Gibson case, since McGeady's ancestry undoubtedly makes him eligible for ROI)


I'd like to focus on the substance of the debate rather than silly insults (though I will note that you have behaved like a gentlemen whilst posting). How is McGeady's ancestry any different? The ROI has always held the position that anyone born on the island is an Irish citizen. Both of Gibson's parents were born on the island as was Gibson. Thus, he is entitled to Irish citizenship. He availed himself of said citizenship. This choice is recognized internationally, including the UK.


However, whilst there is no doubting the validity of Gibson's Irish citizenship, it is as yet unclear (to me at least) whether that alone is sufficient to make him eligible to represent the FAI at football in the absence of his also complying with at least one of FIFA's four "further" tests (i.e. born/parent/grandparent/residence within the Irish Republic)



That's a reasonable position.


As for your penultimate point, his selection on Wednesday night will merely confirm that Stan Staunton (and by extension the FAI) considers him eligible for the ROI at senior level. They may be correct, but that is not the same as proving he is eligible. Countries have picked ineligible players before.


Well we need to focus on what is an "A" international. I think the McGeady case proves that an A international is any full friendly played by the senior team. Countries that have picked ineligible players before usually don't broadcast the fact the way the ROI has with Gibson. Further, the NI/ROI distinction is different from Quatar basically bribing players. In your heart of hearts you know this.


P.S. You may well be correct that Gibson may never play a full international for NI. But should that prove to be the case, that will be his choice rather than the IFA's. It will be interesting to see whether he maintains that stance should FIFA eventually determine that he is not actually eligible for the ROI

It's not going to come to that. Gibson will play for the ROI if he is good enough. FIFA will not rule that he is ineligible.

[geysir]

I don't know how this has any application to Gibson's case (as you appear to indicate yourself in your later post, #81).

There was no doubt about Samuels as to the player's eligibility for both T&T, where he was born, and for England, where he was brought up. However, having represented England up to U-21 level, he was not eligible to switch to represent T&T in the 2006 World Cup, since he didn't apply to switch until too late (i.e, after his 21st birthday).

None of this applies to Gibson, since he is still under 21, so if eligible to represent the FAI, then there can be no bar to his switching.

The real question is whether he is actually eligible for the ROI (in addition to NI), by virtue of his Irish citizenship, or whether he is not eligible, by virtue of his not fulfilling any of the four additional requirements (born in the FAI's jurisdiction, having a parent born w.i. the jurisdiction, or a grandparent, or having resided for two years continuously w.i. the jurisdiction).
The relevance of the Samuel case is that it clearly demonstrates that FIFA use article 15 to decide on cases of dual nationals. Samuels case, a dual national resident in another federation.
There is no real question after that because the 4 so called additional requirements that Howard Wells bleats on about come from another document
http://access.fifa.com/documents/static/regulations/PS%20901%20EN.pdf
That document, only one and a half page long refers to the case of single nationals (Brazilians) wanting to declare for Qatar.
Read the document. This is the crux of the debate.

If Wells is paying good money for legal advice on this matter as you indicate then the lawyers are sucking the IFA out of good money.
Not only that, Wells has failed to do his job properly and continued to misinform the NI fans on this issue, although that does not seem to be too difficult.
I seriously doubt that FIFA will reply any more on this matter.
Their answer on Oct 2006 suffices.

[geysir]

Really? :rolleyes: I'd prefer it if you f*cked off back to ourweeminds.

Your little genie bottle has been rubbed too often for that wish to have any effect. There is no need to resort to direct abuse.
There is a thread debate on the eligibility issue. The issue has direct relevance for EG. Surely he can come on this debate without being molested.

[geysir]

The IFA has no problem with Nationalists playing for NI; indeed, they successfully lobbied FIFA to allow NI players to travel and compete under an Irish Passport only:
The IFA would have been incredibly stupid not to lobby on that issue. Not to lobby would have been the equivalent of shooting yourself in the foot.
Your Howard Wells did not exactly give the the appearance of being the brightest button on that issue, probably waiting to hear from his legal department:) whereas the NI fans unanimously were very fast to make sure the IFA did lobby with haste.

You might consider the possibility that if that ruling was accepted by the IFA it would have benefitted the FAI. To their credit the FAI supported the IFA without regard for personal gain.

[RogerMilla]

Surely the nightmare for you would be if lads from the South were suddenly eligible for NI (or some other country)? We'd take Shay Given, who's a "Northerner" as it is...;)


nah thats no problem at all , if they are fool enough to want to pay for norn iron , i'd gladly let them off !!

[livehead1]

Tell you what lads; I'll ask Deeney if, when he played for Ireland, if it tied him to them forever...then we would have an answer?