NI boss targets Republic's Gibson

[tetsujin1979]

Which I'm not allowed to download at work. Mentioned back around page 2 of this thread!
Adobe have a service to convert pdf documents to HTML here:
http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/access_onlinetools.html
Should do the job nicely for you

[Réiteoir]

Its a pity the IFA weren't more concerned in offering protection to players like Neil Lennon that DID declare for his "country" of birth only to be harrassed firstly by moronic booing from his own fans before it elevated or was allowed to elevate to death threats and intimidation.

[Not Brazil]

This one is certainly dragging on.

The FAI and IFA have been summoned to Zurich today, to get this sorted out.

IFA winning Gibbo war
Man U star's Republic career in the balance
Sunday, October 14, 2007
By Jim Gracey

Northern Ireland and Republic football chiefs have been summoned to a top level FIFA showdown in Zurich tomorrow for an expected ruling on the Darren Gibson tug-of-war between the two countries.

And indications are that the IFA will win their battle to have the Derry-born Manchester United starlet declared ineligible for the Republic who have already played him in a Euro 2008 qualifier.

That could open up another can of worms for the Republic and have serious repercussions for the young player whose senior international career would effectively be over before it really got off the ground.

Steve Staunton's side, who faced Germany in Dublin last night, could have points deducted for including Gibbo in their Group D 2-2 draw in Slovakia earlier this year.

They could even be booted out of the European Championship 2008 although their chances of qualifying for next summer's finals are slim anyway.

It would also be a bitter personal blow to 21-year-old rising star Gibson whose preference was always for the Republic and having achieved his dream, cannot now play for Northern Ireland, even if he wanted to.

His only hope, if the decision goes against him, would be for the ruling to cover future selections, allowing him to carry on representing the Republic.

IFA Chief Executive Howard Wells was at pains to point out last night:" There is nothing personal in all of this. It is about establishing a point of principle and preventing the Republic from selecting players from Northern Ireland who are not eligible for them.

"It is just unfortunate Darron Gibson has become the focus."

The wrangle has also become a political hot potato, hastening FIFA's determination to come to a resolution.

Republic chiefs and Government figures cited the right of Northern Ireland people, under the Good Friday Agreement, to consider themselves Irish citizens.

The IFA in turn recruited a top London QC and author of a book on the Agreement, Austin Morgan, who argued that the treaty was never intended to cut across sporting statutes.

Now it seems a FIFA ruling is imminent with IFA chiefs confident it will go in their favour. Either way, it will not bolster relations between the two associations.

An IFA insider hinted last night: "We expect the talks to put an end to the poaching wrangle. It has been going on for far too long.

"FIFA wanted us to get round a table and talk with the FAI but we rejected that and insisted on face-to-face talks with them, hence the summons to Zurich.

"We believe it is time to grasp the nettle otherwise we will continue to develop young players at under age level then run the risk of losing out when a special one emerges.

"It's not good enough and we want to put an end to it.

"Darron Gibson is an example of that. He played for Northern Ireland at Under 16 and Under 17 level yet was capped recently by the Republic against Slovakia.

"It's simply not good enough and it is time FIFA implemented the rules governing eligibility which are quite clear and which make young Gibson ineligible to play for the Republic.

"But this is not about young Gibson. The IFA's attitude is that the Gibson case is over but FIFA must act now to clarify the situation once and for all."

The Republic have already been told not to include players born in Northern Ireland until the wrangle has been sorted.

[geysir]

Journalistic licence (to scare) is what they call most of that.
From the Sunday Times Sept 9
Fifa spokesman Andreas Herren said on Friday (Sept 7): “The Fifa Legal Committee reviewed the whole issue at its meeting in mid-August. Subsequently a letter was sent to the FAI for their position on this by mid-September. As the matter is in progress, Legal have not given me further details, apart from stating that there is no specific Gibson case but rather the generic review of the entire situation.”

[Lionel Ritchie]

You just know you're dealing with a wannabee tabloid-writer bullsh1tter when they say things like "an ____ insider hinted"

....An IFA insider hinted last night: "We expect the talks to put an end to the poaching wrangle. It has been going on for far too long
Translation: I'm making it up as I'm going along and this is my opinion and/or preferred option.

[paul_oshea]

You just know you're dealing with a wannabee tabloid-writer bullsh1tter when they say things like "an ____ insider hinted"

Translation: I'm making it up as I'm going along and this is my opinion and/or preferred option.

Richie, thats exactly it. I always think that. ITs journalistic licence to talk sh1te. THey shouldn't be allowed do this anymore, cos there are lots of stupid people out there who would think it true!!!v:Dv:mad:

[Not Brazil]

The IFA have now issued a, somewhat brief, statement on today's meeting.

"IFA Officials met today with FIFA in Zurich to discuss player eligibility.

The IFA reaffirms its commitment to the independence of football internationally and looks forward to FIFA resolving the issue satisfactorily.

There will be no further comment from the IFA on the matter at this stage"

[backstothewall]

If the FAI lose I would expect this to end up in the courts, but it seems pretty open and shut. FIFA & UEFA didn't know better than to try to undermine freedom of movement and trade legislation when Bosman took them on, i doubt they will make the sme mistake with the GFA

[EalingGreen]

If the FAI lose I would expect this to end up in the courts, but it seems pretty open and shut. FIFA & UEFA didn't know better than to try to undermine freedom of movement and trade legislation when Bosman took them on, i doubt they will make the sme mistake with the GFA

Bosman and EU legislation are utterly irrelevant, since that case concerned a dispute between an Employee (Bosman) and his Employer (club). FIFA had no view on the matter, since it was nothing to do with them what terms a Belgian football club, sanctioned by the Belgian League, sought to impose on their employees.

Footballers do not earn their living by playing international football, nor are they employed by any National Association, therefore the Bosman Rules, as redefined to comply with EU Employment Law, do not apply to Gibson, the IFA or FAI.

As for the GFA, how many times does it need to be pointed out that Gibson (and all other people born anywhere in Ireland) were entitled to an Irish Passport and Citizenship long before the GFA was even dreamed of, these facts appearing to be the foundation of the FAI's case for Gibson's eligibility?

In so far as the GFA has any bearing on this case (which it doesn't, imo), it actually harms the FAI's case. This is because part of the process which led to the GFA required the Irish Government to drop its constitutional claim to NI, which it had previously pursued right from the very founding of the Irish Free State...:rolleyes:

[eirebhoy]

I haven't been keeping track of this thread but I'm sure I'm just repeating what others have said. It's only common sense for FIFA to rule in favour of the FAI. 3 years ago this would not have been an issue. That's obviously because 3 years ago once you had a passport you could play for that country. FIFA were forced to do something when countries decided to give passports out to any player that'd improve their team. We're in a unique situation in this country and FIFA wouldn't have thought of that when they changed the rules. They'll have to alter the rules now so that Irishmen up north can represent us. Common sense. Wishful thinking from Jim Gracey.

[blobbyblob]

I believe John Delaney is in Switzerland today to receive the ruling on Gibson.

Anyone hear how it went?

[carloz]

They cant go against the FAI, it could and will get very nasty if they do. I think they will draw a line under Gibson, let him stick to the Republic, and close the door on it happening in the future. How they do this with what is stated in the Good Friday agreement I dont know.
Also i dont know if anyone has mentioned the case of Maik Taylor. There is not one iota of Northern irish blood in him. He was born in Germany to an English father and German mother and only qualifies for Northern ireland through his British passport. If Gibson is deemed ineligable for the Republic then the FAI can argue the same case for Taylor

[danonion]

There's a such thing as Northern Irish blood?

[Maroon 7]

They cant go against the FAI, it could and will get very nasty if they do. I think they will draw a line under Gibson, let him stick to the Republic, and close the door on it happening in the future. How they do this with what is stated in the Good Friday agreement I dont know.
Also i dont know if anyone has mentioned the case of Maik Taylor. There is not one iota of Northern irish blood in him. He was born in Germany to an English father and German mother and only qualifies for Northern ireland through his British passport. If Gibson is deemed ineligable for the Republic then the FAI can argue the same case for Taylor

Presumably that would stop any British passport holder from just declaring for whoever he likes such is the case now?

[gspain]

I believe John Delaney is in Switzerland today to receive the ruling on Gibson.

Anyone hear how it went?


I believe he was just making our case today. The IFA were there last Monday.

I'd expect a ruling before th end of the month.

Maik Taylor wouldn't qualify under the new rules in place since 2004. I think DG will be OK as he declared for us in 2003. The general case is a tough call imo.

[gspain]

Presumably that would stop any British passport holder from just declaring for whoever he likes such is the case now?

The so called "home nations" have their own rules on this that are endorsed by FIFA.

[paul_oshea]

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2007/1022/gibsond.html

looks like good news, actually they have changed the wording to "retrospectively", which sounds like they will be making a change from now on.

[geysir]

The Darron Gibson case was never on the FIFA agenda for review. Everything at the time of Darron's transfer was done by the book. There was not a snowballs chance that FIFA would even consider a change to Darron's registration with Ireland.

[youngirish]

Mixed news for FAI in Gibson dispute


October 23, 2007

The Football Association of Ireland has been informed that Derry-born Manchester United midfielder Darron Gibson can remain a Republic of Ireland player, but no other players with no close family links to the Republic can be drafted into squads in the future.

Gibson represented Northern Ireland at under-16 level before defecting to the Republic.

The decision was said to have been backed up by the Good Friday Agreement, which decreed that anyone born north of the border could hold an Irish passport.

In future, though, the political treaty will hold no sway in deciding the nationality of footballers in relation to the Republic of Ireland side.

Instead, Fifa rules will effectively override the Good Friday Agreement, meaning players must either be born in the Republic, or have a parent or grandparent born in the Republic, to qualify to represent teams within the FAI jurisdiction.

While Northern officials will be unhappy to lose out on Gibson, they will no doubt be celebrating a landmark ruling which ends a period of serious uncertainty within football circles north of the border.

All those points we got deducted eh EalingGreen?

[paul_oshea]

Well in fairness, he was half right/half wrong. The word "retrospectively" says it all really.....

Btw can the FAI appeal it at all?

[gspain]

Well in fairness, he was half right/half wrong. The word "retrospectively" says it all really.....

Btw can the FAI appeal it at all?

It's bad news really if you ignore the spin.

DG was always going to be OK. He declared in 2003 before the rule change. To apply rules retrospectively would open a huge can of worms and rule many players ineligible for their national teams. NI would lose Maik Taylor for example.

It does appear we've lost the case. FIFA haven't made an announcement yet but that is the clear interpretation.

The FAI can appeal. Whether they will or not is another matter. They probably have other things on their mind at the moment.

[geysir]

It's bad news really if you ignore the spin.

DG was always going to be OK. He declared in 2003 before the rule change. To apply rules retrospectively would open a huge can of worms and rule many players ineligible for their national teams. NI would lose Maik Taylor for example.

It does appear we've lost the case. FIFA haven't made an announcement yet but that is the clear interpretation.

The FAI can appeal. Whether they will or not is another matter. They probably have other things on their mind at the moment.

The information out there is that Darron declared in 2005 well after the Annex was in operation.
Darron is 19 years old.
His transfer was lock solid at the time.

[gspain]

The information out there is that Darron declared in 2005 well after the Annex was in operation.
Darron is 19 years old.
His transfer was lock solid at the time.


The regulations came into force in 2004. The Annex clarifying them was issued in 2005.

DG played for us in 2003


http://www.elevenaside.com/boysingreen/irish_soccer_detail.asp?newsid=8150


Bad start for under-17s


October 22, 2003

Rep of Ireland U17 1-2 Austria U17
Noel O’Reilly’s Irish under-17 side suffered a setback in their hopes of making it to the second qualification phase of the Uefa European Championships when going down to their Austrian counterparts in Grenchen, Switzerland on Tuesday evening.

The Irish went into this four-team tournament – from which two sides go forward to the next phase – as one of the favourites to progress following their friendly tournament victory in Hungary in August.

The game appeared to be heading for a scoreless draw before a dramatic final ten minutes, when the Austrians scored twice before Ireland battled back to close the deficit to one before the final whistle.

Substitute Idrizaj opened the scoreline for the Austrians on 71 minutes, and they doubled the lead through striker Hoffer five minutes later.

Leeds United youngster Ian Morris converted from the penalty spot in injury time at the end of the 80 minutes after Ipswich’s Billy Clarke had been deemed to have been fouled inside the area, but the Irish teenagers were unable to find the leveller that would have given them a better chance of claiming one of the two qualification berths.

In the day’s other game, Belarus caused an upset when downing the hosts Switzerland on a 1-0 scoreline in Lyss. Ireland meet Belarus in Lyss tomorrow (Thursday).

Rep of Ireland under-17: Randolph (Charlton Athletic), Keane (Belvedere), Stapleton (Reading), Gibson (Derry City), O’Dea (Celtic), S. Kelly (Kingdom Boys), J.P. Kelly (Liverpool), Morris (Leeds United), O’Carroll (Celtic), Stokes (Arsenal), Hayes (Reading). Subs: Gaynor (Millwall) for Hayes (67 mins), Clarke (Leeds United) for Stokes (75 mins), Fitzgerald (Lourdes Celtic) for Keane (77 mins).

Austria under-17: Kuru, Gramann, Asinger, Suttner, Hackmair, Kreimer, Madl, Walzer, Tosun, Hoffer, Seelaus. Subs: Idrizak for Kreimer (41 mins), Lercher for Seelaus (60 mins), Okotie for Hoffer (80 mins).

[Dodge]

It's bad news really if you ignore the spin
That would be my reading too.

And I think FIFA have rules in place to punish anybody who goes the legal route (which of course the FAI would win)

[shakermaker1982]

very bad news for the lads from across the border who see themselves as Irish.

[Not Brazil]

very bad news for the lads from across the border who see themselves as Irish.

Isn't it just - they'll maybe have to consider playing for the IRISH Football Association team.:eek:

[shakermaker1982]

Isn't it just - they'll maybe have to consider playing for the IRISH Football Association team.:eek:

and get sectarian abuse from some (not all) of the fans? If they've got an Irish passport, see themselves as Irish and don't want to play for a BRITISH team then they should be allowed to follow in Gibson's footsteps IMO.

[galwayhoop]

terrible news for those in the north who don't feel represented by NI. a shame that a major portion of the GF agreement cannot be replicated by football.

ignore the spin, this case was always about more than Darron Gibson. A bad ruling imo for the RoI.

[gspain]

That would be my reading too.

And I think FIFA have rules in place to punish anybody who goes the legal route (which of course the FAI would win)

I don't think the legal route is an option and frankly we wouldn't win. We could use the FIFA appeals process and the Court of Arbitration for Sport.

[geysir]

The regulations came into force in 2004. The Annex clarifying them was issued in 2005.

DG played for us in 2003
http://www.elevenaside.com/boysingreen/irish_soccer_detail.asp?newsid=8150.
Point taken. As I said there is information out there that he declared in 2005.
Obviously not right though.

That means he was 2 days into his 16th year when he played for the u 17´s

[galwayhoop]

:rolleyes:

unfortunately this thread is on its last legs...................

the roundabout will begin to rehash - lennon... we've changed ... we are british and irish at the same time ... you only sing brit songs .... we are the Irish Football Association ... November 1993 ... we've changed ... even nationalists should want to play for us .... No surrender ... a new flag ... a new song ... blah ... blah ... blah

[Not Brazil]

and get sectarian abuse from some (not all) of the fans? If they've got an Irish passport, see themselves as Irish and don't want to play for a BRITISH team then they should be allowed to follow in Gibson's footsteps IMO.

Unfortunately for you, it's FIFA's "opinion" that counts.

Your "sectarian abuse" comment is so tired.

Several Irish Passport holders proudly play for Northern Ireland....none of them receive sectarian abuse.

[galwayhoop]

Valiant effort to keep it going...after nearly 800 posts :rolleyes:

:confused: what are you on about

[paul_oshea]

Tbh honest, I cant see how they could lose if they appealed, the whole idea of FIFA having a legal department and lawyer(s) ( who review all cases individually ), is to ensure that whatever it rules on is legally binding and doesn't infringe on a humans right. It is the right of anyone under the GFA to consider themselves a citizen of Eire, as the passport says, therefore under any ruling they would therefore be allowed to choose who to represent. I have to say I didnt think FIFA would rule this way.

[Mr_Parker]

There is very little new in todays announcement for those of us who have been taking a close interest in all this. Now for the politicians again.....

[ken foree]

i'm sure it's been said but a football organization should follow a nation's law, not the other way around.

[Ordinary Fan]

In most cases would not the grandparents have been born before partition and therefor the likes of Gibson still be qualified for the ROI.

[blobbyblob]

In most cases would not the grandparents have been born before partition and therefor the likes of Gibson still be qualified for the ROI.

Unlikely to be the case unless the player was born in the 70s or early 80s maybe but time rattles on. I could stand corrected however if Gibsons father is a Sugar Daddy.

[paul_oshea]

well heres the thing. If my father decided to get British citizen ship, which he could do due to being born before 1947, then I could do too, as he would have british citizenship

If the player has a grandfather in the same way then he could too.....so i would have thought this worked the other way round too?!

[beano]

It is the right of anyone under the GFA to consider themselves a citizen of Eire
WRONG!
They can consider themselves and be accepted as Irish, British or both. Also "their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments".

That doesn't give them a right to play for a foreign* football team.

* Like it or not, the Republic of Ireland team is just that. They are not a de facto Ireland team.

Whoever said previously this was always about Gibson is way off. Most NI fans are much more concerned about the principle of the Republic pinching our players than this one. Gibson was just the straw that broke the Camel's back and as long as we get the principle of jurisdictional integrity you can keep Gibson, I doubt he'd get near the NI team following his defection anyway.

[Maroon 7]

I don't think the legal route is an option and frankly we wouldn't win. We could use the FIFA appeals process and the Court of Arbitration for Sport.

I'm not sure why you would think we wouldn't win a legal challenge. I would think it's more likely that the FAI would win a legal challenge if they took it far enough. What I would doubt is whether the FAI would have any appetite to begin legal proceedings that could be both lengthy and costly. Eventually I believe it may have to come down to an individual taking a stand at some point to assert his rights.

That would however have to be an exceptionally strong-minded individual.

[co. down green]

The Irish times

The paper reports that the FAI:

described as “good and constructive” its meeting with Fifa yesterday in relation to the eligibility of players born in the North to play for the Republic. A four-strong delegation from Merrion Square came away from Zurich with a commitment that there will be no retrospective changes to the current position. The status of Darron Gibson has, therefore, been resolved.

Beyond that, it remains to be seen what attitude Fifa’s legal people will take to the IFA’s claim that the terms of the political settlement in Northern Ireland altered the situation. “We need some time to review all of the information that has been presented at these meetings,” said a spokesman for Fifa yesterday.

No decisions yet, i still expect the FIFA ruling of October 2006(post rule change) by Heinz Tannler, Director of FIFA's Legal Division, and Corina Luck, Head of their General Legal department stated 'the existing situation in Northern Ireland allows players to choose whether they wish to represent Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland'." to stand.

A bit early for the 'billy boys' to be creaming the pants !!

[gspain]

I'm not sure why you would think we wouldn't win a legal challenge. I would think it's more likely that the FAI would win a legal challenge if they took it far enough. What I would doubt is whether the FAI would have any appetite to begin legal proceedings that could be both lengthy and costly. Eventually I believe it may have to come down to an individual taking a stand at some point to assert his rights.

That would however have to be an exceptionally strong-minded individual.


FIFA decide who is eligible for national teams. They make the rules and if we don't like it then.....

Frankly I can't see the FAI taking it much further anyway. Delaney has enough on his plate and he can spin a positive angle here.

I agree on a player taking a case. That is the most likely outcome of a challenge if such a challenge was to materialise. The IFA would fight such a challenge though and as in the case of Bosman a victory would only benefit others if such a challenge was to be eventually successful.

A grandparent born before partition is a red herring anyway. Even if you had a very old grandparent FIFA's rule talk about being born in the terriritory of the football association and NI was always in the IFA's territory since 1880. In fact such a claim could be used for RoI born and bred players to declare for NI if they had a grandparent born before 1921.

[eirebhoy]

Unfortunately for you, it's FIFA's "opinion" that counts.

Your "sectarian abuse" comment is so tired.

Several Irish Passport holders proudly play for Northern Ireland....none of them receive sectarian abuse.
I think replacing the national anthem should be high on the agenda now do you agree?

[paul_oshea]

In fact such a claim could be used for RoI born and bred players to declare for NI if they had a grandparent born before 1921.

hmm, its not 1921, its 1947 gspain.

[Drumcondra 69er]

hmm, its not 1921, its 1947 gspain.

Think it's 1921 actually, leaving the commonwealth and declaring a republic is different then partition.

[soccerc]

Think it's 1921 actually, leaving the commonwealth and declaring a republic is different then partition.

I believe the actual date to be 6 December 1922, but have also found a reference to 6 December 1921.

[gspain]

The rules in this case are FIFA's rules not those regarding passports or when we gained independence.

The date is open to question. Peter Byrne recounts in the FAI's official history that the association was formed at Molesworth hall on June 1st 1921 although that maybe be the league as opposed to the FAI. We were admitted to FIFA in late 1923. I'm not aware of the dates here if they are recorded.

The rules relate to the terroritory of the football association. Even if a player had a grandparent born prior to 1921 or 1923 then they would have been born in the terrirtory of the IFA so it hardly benefits our case.

Anyway in fairness to FIFA and the IFA it wasn't exactly an earth shattering decision to say that players brought up in NI can only play for NI. However we have had a huge increase in support from NI (presumably mainly if not exclusively nationalists) in recent years and the next DG going to the Brandywell to support Derry City and down to Dublin to support the Roi is being told by FIFA that they cannot play for what they consider to be their national team. However that player is probably also playing schools and club football for clubs who get funding from the IFA and the UK government.

I think there is still some mileage in this one but I reckon it will need a player to make te case now.

[Drumcondra 69er]

I believe the actual date to be 6 December 1922, but have also found a reference to 6 December 1921.

Treaty signed 6 December 1921, approved in the Dail in January 1922.

[Not Brazil]

I think replacing the national anthem should be high on the agenda now do you agree?

It's been pretty high on my agenda for quite some time now - but probably for different reasons than yourself.

I think that if a Northern Ireland player (or "group" of players) raised the issue, it would expediate some change.

Maybe something akin to the practice of the IRFU would be a step forward?

GSTQ & new "anthem" in Belfast

New "anthem" only, away from home.