NI boss targets Republic's Gibson

[Not Brazil]

Who cares what you lot do? I don't.

I understand that it might be a tough oul time for you Paddy, but I was merely responding to a question from eirebhoy.

And...you obviously cared enough to post about you not caring.

[Not Brazil]

I was simply making the point that nobody on here has the slightest interest in the ramblings of you or Ealing Green or your sad statelet team. And what anthem you play in front of your 'team' is your business.

No problem chum.

[soccerc]

Treaty signed 6 December 1921, approved in the Dail in January 1922.

I am well aware of the dates of the treaty.

I was researching a totally different aspect, purchases of motor vehicles by the Irish Free State 1921-29, in the National Archives when I came across a couple of documents relating to the breakway football association of the Irish Free State.

They piqued my interest and I followed through on the files, External Affairs IIRC, and came upon some dates as to who could be given a passport and citizenship. While the treaty was signed in Dec 21, the documents referred to a parent or grandparent born on or before 6 Dec '22.

[Drumcondra 69er]

I am well aware of the dates of the treaty.

I was researching a totally different aspect, purchases of motor vehicles by the Irish Free State 1921-29, in the National Archives when I came across a couple of documents relating to the breakway football association of the Irish Free State.

They piqued my interest and I followed through on the files, External Affairs IIRC, and came upon some dates as to who could be given a passport and citizenship. While the treaty was signed in Dec 21, the documents referred to a parent or grandparent born on or after 6 Dec '22.

No offence mate, just saw 6 December and assumed you were talking aboutthe treaty and you'd got your years mixed up. Probably some agreement giving grace to anyone born within 12 months of the signing. But haven't people from the 6 counties always been entitled to a passport regardless?

[backstothewall]

If FIFA are about to tell me and hundtreds of thousands of others we don't qualify for the Republic, which as far as i can tell is still an if, i would expect they will end up in Laganside courts.

I would imagine if this is the case the FAI will make a point of doing this quickly.

[Bucky-O'Hare]

But haven't people from the 6 counties always been entitled to a passport regardless?

Yes, I don't know why people keep bringing up the GFA as people in the occupied 6 counties have ALWAYS been entitled to Irish passports!

I cant believe FIFA think they can tell us different! How the hell can we not play for the republic while Bosnian Croats and Serbs play for Serbia and Croatia?? The FAI and the Irish government had better get this sorted!!

[MariborKev]

Have we?

I seem to recall having to provide details of grandparents born in ROI on a previous passport applciation.

[backstothewall]

You had to provide details of a parent or grandparent being born in Ireland before partition, in the Irish Republic after partition, or being an Irish passport holder. Potentially it could (and probably would) have been passed through the generations forever.

Then it was changed to born anywhere in Ireland after the GFA, then changed again cos of 9 month pregnant immigrants arriving in Dublin airport from all parts of the world. I'm not sure who isn't entitiled to it now, but i know Me, Darron Gibson, Micheal O'Conner and Tony Kane are, as well as David Healy (if he had any ambition that is)

[gspain]

Have we?

I seem to recall having to provide details of grandparents born in ROI on a previous passport applciation.

Not the case. Your entitlement to an Irish passport and citizenship does not differ depending on where on this island you were born (the rules have changed recently but not regarding NI or RoI).

The GFA merely enshrined th eright because Articles 2 & 3 were being modified.

[paul_oshea]

If FIFA are about to tell me and hundtreds of thousands of others we don't qualify for the Republic, which as far as i can tell is still an if, i would expect they will end up in Laganside courts.

I would imagine if this is the case the FAI will make a point of doing this quickly.


do ye know what,BTW, you could well be a young fella with an ambition to play for the republic, whats to stop you pursuing your dream of playing for us, could be worth a try ;)

[Bucky-O'Hare]

Have we?

I seem to recall having to provide details of grandparents born in ROI on a previous passport applciation.

If u were born on the island of Ireland you were entitled to an Irish passport over the "border". Who did u have to provide those details too?

[cheifo]

I was simply making the point that nobody on here has the slightest interest in the ramblings of you or Ealing Green or your sad statelet team. And what anthem you play in front of your 'team' is your business.

Paddy was there any need for that comment?As football supporters they are entitled to comment on an issue which affects them directly.BTW If you have been keeping up with current events we are not in a position to refer to any other national team as "sad".

[Lionel Ritchie]

Every need. These guys are tolerated far too much on here, some almost fawn at their ramblings. Go visit their forum and see how welcome you are made.

I posted on their for two years and never had any serious problems. Generally just the occasional odd-ball who doesn't want to read opinions of those who don't see things his way. But you get that on every board. Wonder why some people bother logging in to get offended myself...

[Réiteoir]

There's something very wrong when someone, who has never set foot in Ireland, and neither has his parents, and neither has their parents bar one 100 year old oul lad who could have moved to England when he was 12, who has represented England at junior level, who is English, who has previously held an English passport, who has cheered on England as a child, who just wants to play for any international team to further his career and who couldn’t give two ****s about the country can play for Ireland.

However a lad born in Ireland, who is Irish, who carries an Irish passport, who considers Dublin the capital of his country, thinks himself nothing but Irish and who can legally be classed as Irish can't.

The mind well and truly boggles.

[liaml]

This decision just saddens me.

It means my son cannot represent the country

1. He was born in.
2. Has a passport for
3, Who's kit he wears when training with his school and local team.
4. Who's players posters are plastered all over his room.
5. That he goes abroad with me to watch away games

and finally...

6. Is intensely proud of.

The FAI has got to appeal this decision.


-Liam

[paul_oshea]

Liam, I sent that on to the FAI, not that it will probably do anything, but I think TP is right. I also wrote something along "dont abondon them like all those years ago either" :D

[lofty9]

This decision just saddens me.

It means my son cannot represent the country

1. He was born in.
2. Has a passport for
3, Who's kit he wears when training with his school and local team.
4. Who's players posters are plastered all over his room.
5. That he goes abroad with me to watch away games

and finally...

6. Is intensely proud of.

The FAI has got to appeal this decision.


-Liam

Can players without British Passports play for NI? Wasn't there some sort of decision made by FIFA or UEFA stating this? I'm asking this as I know quite a lot of schoolkids from Derry playing football and their families all have Irish Passports for them. If the IFA call them up do they have to produce the British passport to play?

[EalingGreen]

Can players without British Passports play for NI? Wasn't there some sort of decision made by FIFA or UEFA stating this? I'm asking this as I know quite a lot of schoolkids from Derry playing football and their families all have Irish Passports for them. If the IFA call them up do they have to produce the British passport to play?

Absolutely not; so long as he is otherwise eligible to represent the IFA under FIFA Rules, any NI player may hold whatever Passport, or combination of Passports, he likes - British, Irish, Nigerian, Columbian or whatever!

In fact, the "decision" you refer to followed a case of a UEFA under-age Tournament somewhere in Europe where UEFA employed Monitors to check players' ID and age etc (i.e. to avoid ringers, or overage players). There was a problem when one youngster who had dual nationality presented his "other" Passport as ID (i.e. not of the country he was representing). So as to avoid confusion for their Monitors, UEFA sent out a Directive that players must present the Passport of the country which they are representing.

When the IFA heard this, they realised this would present a unique problem for NI, since the "appropriate" Passport which UEFA would now expect to see would be a UK one i.e. the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". Several NI players do not possess (or want) a UK Passport. Therefore the IFA* successfully lobbied UEFA for their players to be allowed to present an Irish Passport instead, should they prefer.


* - Several local politicians attempted to stick their nose in and claim the credit, incl. the Irish Foreign Affairs Minister, but as was subsequently revealed, they never even got to meet anyone from UEFA over this, never mind were in a position to exert any influence! :rolleyes:

[Absinthe]

This decision just saddens me.

It means my son cannot represent the country

1. He was born in.
2. Has a passport for
3, Who's kit he wears when training with his school and local team.
4. Who's players posters are plastered all over his room.
5. That he goes abroad with me to watch away games

and finally...

6. Is intensely proud of.

The FAI has got to appeal this decision.


-Liam

I would get all misty eyed, if your post wasnt inaccurate.

Your son is more than welcome to play for the country he was born in, this is something that this ruling will promote.

The problem is that you dont want your son to play for the country that he was born in, thats not the same thing.

--------

And, as far as going to Laganside courts to appeal this decision, or the highest court in the land........fill your boots. FIFA do not report to any countrys justice system, and therefore will not give a rats ass. They run the football world, and if the FAI dont want to follow their rules, they will not be eligible for any of their tournaments.

The only place you can realistically go, is the Court for the Arbitration of Sport (CAS), whose decisions FIFA pretty much abide by.

---------

And as for your comparisons with the former Yugolavia, there is a FIFA statute in place for that. It covers a Country's boundries changing though political means, which has not happened in this case.

If I remember correctly the players, were given the choice of which country they wanted to represent. After Serbia and Montengro split and join FIFA as two seperate teams, I would expect that the same rules as apply here to be applied. i.e. You would need to be born in the appropriate territory, or your parents, or their parents, which should safeguard peoples choices for 70 odd-years.

As a final thought, do you not think its fair enough that if your family havent been born in a country for 3 generations, that you should be able to represent them at International Level?

[Absinthe]

Northern Ireland's pool of players gets smaller by the week! [quote]

How does Northern Ireland's pool of players get smaller by the week?

[quote=Tuff Paddy;799393]In time there will come a day when a very talented young man will want to play for his country and FIFA will have to rule on it.
You can't force nationality on people, as much as you think you can. Those days are gone pal.


Im not trying to force anything on anyone. I merely pointed out an inaccuracy in his post. He said that his son cant play for the country he was born in, that is a lie. He and/or his son dont want to play for the country they were born in, and thats a seperate issue. They are certainly not prevented from doing so (except by the lack of talent, that afflicts us all! :p)



Funny how you pop up on here with your 1 post. You'll be looking for tickets next!

Everyone has to start somewhere, and there is absolutely no danger of me looking for tickets.

[paul_oshea]

In time there will come a day when a very talented young man will want to play for his country and FIFA will have to rule on it.


unfortunately TP, I cant see that happening, with more and more immigrants in the north, they only know one thing and thats living in britain, they havent any connection to the land in any way northern nationalists/republicans do. THere children will be the exact same. Eventually beliefs get watered down....by bigger things like money

Unfortunately, its one of the things people forget when dealing with immigration and "what makes one, Irish"*

*can be applied to any nationality....

[bennocelt]

I have to say i find this decision dreadful, and cant see how it would hold up in a decent court of law.........

if this is the case, then what are Derry City doing playing in the Eircom league?

[geysir]

I have to say i find this decision dreadful, and cant see how it would hold up in a decent court of law.........

What decision are you talking about?
Stan's sacking?
There has been no decision uttered by FIFA.

[Absinthe]

I have to say i find this decision dreadful, and cant see how it would hold up in a decent court of law.........

if this is the case, then what are Derry City doing playing in the Eircom league?

Why do Monaco play in the French League?

FIFA and UEFA have sanctioned it. Its a fall-out from the troubles and to do with the location of the Brandywell, amongst other reasons. Both the IFA and the FAI agreed to their switch.

And as stated in the above post, in footballing matters, FIFA are above the law, so feel free to take this to any court of law you like. They are powerless.

For your arguement to be correct, Cliftonville (for example) would also play in the Eircom League.

And Geysir, is also correct, FIFA have not made an official statement yet, although I would be surprised if it isnt the same as what has been reported in the media.

[CollegeTillIDie]

I have to say i find this decision dreadful, and cant see how it would hold up in a decent court of law.........

if this is the case, then what are Derry City doing playing in the Eircom league?

Derry City are in the Eircom League by consent of both the IFA and FAI and it is blessed by UEFA. This is the same principle by which Berwick Rangers play in Scotland and FC Vaduz from Liechtenstein are permitted to play in the Swiss Second Division.

[galwayhoop]

Maybe something akin to the practice of the IRFU would be a step forward?

i just knew you were a closet supporter of an All Ireland Team :p:D:D

[shakermaker1982]

Any person born on the island of Ireland is entitled to Irish citizenship.
That person therefore carries an Irish passport.
That person can therefore play for the Republic of Ireland.
End of discussion.

Exactly.

[paul_oshea]

I think a compromise should be reached. Taking into account the Derry situation.

Anybody born on the 32 County Island of Ireland can play for either Northern Ireland or the Republic Of Ireland, with either a British Passport or an Irish Passport. Therefore the likes of fbtn or whatever he is called can play for Northern Ireland like he so wishes. I think this is the fairest compromise of all. Who agrees?

[greendeiseboy]

remember this was the fai(l) that went to fight our corner the same pi*s artists who put the rainbow coalition of zippy, bungle, george and geoffrey in charge of the team

[cavan_fan]

Any person born on the island of Ireland is entitled to Irish citizenship.
That person therefore carries an Irish passport.
That person can therefore play for the Republic of Ireland.
End of discussion.

Sadly not. The mistake here is in the 3rd line. What worries FIFA is that any country can give passports to whoever they want, it means nothing. They are in seriouos danger of getting into the situation that athletics is in that Middle Eastern countries will give passports to talented Brazilian footballers to play for them. Can we all agree this is not the point of International football. Therefore you cant use passports as the deciding factor. FIFA have decided to use place of birth. They have also, preumably decided not to have an Irish excpetion (that's a pity I think).

One thought, I keep hearing how Carlo Cudicini is elgible to play for England now through residency. Is this true and if so isnt the solution for th epeople in question to live and play in the south for a few years?

[Drumcondra 69er]

Sadly not. The mistake here is in the 3rd line. What worries FIFA is that any country can give passports to whoever they want, it means nothing. They are in seriouos danger of getting into the situation that athletics is in that Middle Eastern countries will give passports to talented Brazilian footballers to play for them. Can we all agree this is not the point of International football. Therefore you cant use passports as the deciding factor. FIFA have decided to use place of birth. They have also, preumably decided not to have an Irish excpetion (that's a pity I think).

One thought, I keep hearing how Carlo Cudicini is elgible to play for England now through residency. Is this true and if so isnt the solution for th epeople in question to live and play in the south for a few years?

Yes that is the solution, think it's 2 years. It's hardly likely though given that a talented footballer will probably be with an English club by the time he's 16.

That was how Olivera who knocked us out of the 98 WC play off for Belgium was allowed to play despite being Brazillian which was farcical in itself. It's ludoucris that someone like that is more eligible then someone born in the 6 counties who has their affinity with the ROI team and it's a sectarain stance from the IFA despite their spin. It should be a matter of choice for the individual player given the policits of the area and an exception should be made. The government got involved when the passport rule was changed last year, intetrested to see what their response will be now.

[eelmonster]

Who's to say these potential players haven't lived in the south? Will FIFA be looking for telephone and rates bills to prove residency.

Anyway, as mentioned above, no decision, with the exception of the decision made in respect of the Gibson case, has been taken. It's most likely FIFA will add an Irish clause similar to those in operation wit the UK and Balkan football associations.

[Dodge]

One thought, I keep hearing how Carlo Cudicini is elgible to play for England now through residency. Is this true and if so isnt the solution for th epeople in question to live and play in the south for a few years?

Its 5 years before Irish residents can apply for citizenship. Not going to happen

[Absinthe]

Yes that is the solution, think it's 2 years. It's hardly likely though given that a talented footballer will probably be with an English club by the time he's 16.

That was how Olivera who knocked us out of the 98 WC play off for Belgium was allowed to play despite being Brazillian which was farcical in itself. It's ludoucris that someone like that is more eligible then someone born in the 6 counties who has their affinity with the ROI team and it's a sectarain stance from the IFA despite their spin. It should be a matter of choice for the individual player given the policits of the area and an exception should be made. The government got involved when the passport rule was changed last year, intetrested to see what their response will be now.

Its no more sectarian, than wanting to play for a country to which you have no links. Why should special dispensation be allowed to people in Northern Ireland over everyone else in Europe?

Partition occured circa 1921. How long do you think 'special' deals should be made? As ive already said, the people who this affects, have not been born or bred in Ireland for 3 generations. How long can people claim to be another nationality? Your getting as bad as the Americans, who are 1/8 irish, 1/4 Dutch etc.....:p

The rules only require someone to live in the country that they proclaim to love so much for 2 years, and acquire citizenship. Northern Irish nationalists have already achieved the harder of these two statutes.

[cavan_fan]

it's a sectarain stance from the IFA despite their spin.

I actually dont think it is. I think they dont want to lose players. I'd do the same!

[cavan_fan]

Who's to say these potential players haven't lived in the south? Will FIFA be looking for telephone and rates bills to prove residency.

Anyway, as mentioned above, no decision, with the exception of the decision made in respect of the Gibson case, has been taken. It's most likely FIFA will add an Irish clause similar to those in operation wit the UK and Balkan football associations.

I dont think it would take Sherlock Holmes to work out Gibson hasnt been living in Ireland recently

[Dodge]

How long can people claim to be another nationality? Your getting as bad as the Americans, who are 1/8 irish, 1/4 Dutch etc.....:p
You're not doing yourself any favours with posts as flippant as this. Don't do it again. We all know the political situation, and we all know how each other feels about it...

[as_i_say]

Hopefully the next Irish nordie that wants to play for us will have a dublin born granny and there won't be this issue. Its just unfortunate for him that his next of kin were all born in the 6 counties like him.

I'm sure worthington and his "Irish" FA brigade knew they would never be able to convince Gibson back anyway.

[Absinthe]

You're not doing yourself any favours with posts as flippant as this. Don't do it again. We all know the political situation, and we all know how each other feels about it...

I genuinely wasnt trying to cause offence, and apologise to anyone if I did.

As I have asked 3 times, what makes the Irish situation unique enough to deserve its own statute that allows the FAI to pick players from another country, who have no tangible ties to the Republic of Ireland.

You can bet that this is a/the question that FIFA will have asked.

Before responding, please bear in mind that FIFA, have already ruled that a passport is insufficent in 2004.

[Ireland4ever]

As I have asked 3 times, what makes the Irish situation unique enough to deserve its own statute that allows the FAI to pick players from another country, who have no tangible ties to the Republic of Ireland.



Are you for real or just a wind-up merchant?

[Maroon 7]

Its no more sectarian, than wanting to play for a country to which you have no links. Why should special dispensation be allowed to people in Northern Ireland over everyone else in Europe?

Partition occured circa 1921. How long do you think 'special' deals should be made? As ive already said, the people who this affects, have not been born or bred in Ireland for 3 generations. How long can people claim to be another nationality? Your getting as bad as the Americans, who are 1/8 irish, 1/4 Dutch etc.....:p

The rules only require someone to live in the country that they proclaim to love so much for 2 years, and acquire citizenship. Northern Irish nationalists have already achieved the harder of these two statutes.

And there is the problem of the north wrapped up in a nutshell. One group of people trying to tell another what they are and are not.:rolleyes:

[Maroon 7]

As I have asked 3 times, what makes the Irish situation unique enough to deserve its own statute that allows the FAI to pick players from another country, who have no tangible ties to the Republic of Ireland.


No tangible ties other than the fact that they are Irish citizens through birth.

They don't get given passports out of a cornflakes box you know.

[SuperDave]

They cant go against the FAI, it could and will get very nasty if they do. I think they will draw a line under Gibson, let him stick to the Republic, and close the door on it happening in the future. How they do this with what is stated in the Good Friday agreement I dont know.
Also i dont know if anyone has mentioned the case of Maik Taylor. There is not one iota of Northern irish blood in him. He was born in Germany to an English father and German mother and only qualifies for Northern ireland through his British passport. If Gibson is deemed ineligable for the Republic then the FAI can argue the same case for Taylor

The FAI could if they had any claim over Maik Taylor, but they don't. They could probably send an observation to FIFA. Personally, I think any future player from the north, who wants to play for the FAI, could take FIFA and the IFA to court, probably eventually the ECHR, and succeed.

[co. down green]

As mentioned yesterday no decision has been made by FIFA, the BBC have altered their initial story and IFA exec. Hard Wells has released a statement claiming that FIFA gave given no indication as to a possible outcome.

Today's Irish News editorial pretty much summed up nationalist feeling in the North about the issue 'The IFA would be better concentrating on players who actually want to play for their team'

[Dodge]

As I have asked 3 times, what makes the Irish situation unique enough to deserve its own statute that allows the FAI to pick players from another country, who have no tangible ties to the Republic of Ireland
You know damn well. Seriously, this is a mod warning; Don't be posting things just for effect

[Drumcondra 69er]

Its no more sectarian, than wanting to play for a country to which you have no links. Why should special dispensation be allowed to people in Northern Ireland over everyone else in Europe?

Partition occured circa 1921. How long do you think 'special' deals should be made? As ive already said, the people who this affects, have not been born or bred in Ireland for 3 generations. How long can people claim to be another nationality? Your getting as bad as the Americans, who are 1/8 irish, 1/4 Dutch etc.....:p

The rules only require someone to live in the country that they proclaim to love so much for 2 years, and acquire citizenship. Northern Irish nationalists have already achieved the harder of these two statutes.

'Have no links'??? :D:D It's sectarian in that it's aimed at people who don't feel any afinity to the 6 counties as a statelet and wish to represent the tradition on the island that they do have an afinity to and feel they belong to. They are already entitled to citizenship. You know as well as anyone on here and probably better then mosty that there's a unique situation in the 6 counties and comparing it to other areas is childish in the extreme. Let's be honest you're only trawling here trying to get a reaction in any case.

It'll be a temporary thing anyway, the english can't wait to wash their hands of the north, your own politicians are already looking to get matching corporation tax rates etc as there is in the south, it's all just small steps on the road to reunification, 20 years should do it.....

[Absinthe]

The FAI could if they had any claim over Maik Taylor, but they don't. They could probably send an observation to FIFA. Personally, I think any future player from the north, who wants to play for the FAI, could take FIFA and the IFA to court, probably eventually the ECHR, and succeed.

FIFA will only deal with the CAS. The ECHR have absoutely no sway with FIFA whatsoever. FIFA govern the tournament, therefore to play in the tournament you have to meet FIFA's requirements.

You dont have to take my word for it, it is well documented.

And I am not here 'on a wind up'.

[Absinthe]

'Have no links'??? :D:D It's sectarian in that it's aimed at people who don't feel any afinity to the 6 counties as a statelet and wish to represent the tradition on the island that they do have an afinity to and feel they belong to. They are already entitled to citizenship. You know as well as anyone on here and probably better then mosty that there's a unique situation in the 6 counties and comparing it to other areas is childish in the extreme. Let's be honest you're only trawling here trying to get a reaction in any case.

It'll be a temporary thing anyway, the english can't wait to wash their hands of the north, your own politicians are already looking to get matching corporation tax rates etc as there is in the south, it's all just small steps on the road to reunification, 20 years should do it.....

Citizenship in the sense of holding a passport is not enough to represent a country at football, you can thank FIFA and Qatar for that. That has nothing to do with me. I am trying to deal with facts.

And I am not trying to tell anybody who they are, I myself would regard myself as Irish over British everytime. I am trying to point out that the GFA and holding an Irish passport is irrelevant in the context of playing international football.

If you could look at things objectively, removing all the political baggage from it, why should two FA's be able to pick people from one territory?

Its not even a solely Irish issue, should for example the Slovakian and the Czech Republician FA's be able to pick anyone born within the former Czechoslovakia?

[eirebhoy]

Its not even a solely Irish issue, should for example the Slovakian and the Czech Republician FA's be able to pick anyone born within the former Czechoslovakia?
Slovakia has always been there. It's not as if they decided to break away and invent their own language. It can't be compared with our situation.

[Drumcondra 69er]

If you could look at things objectively, removing all the political baggage from it, why should two FA's be able to pick people from one territory?

Its not even a solely Irish issue, should for example the Slovakian and the Czech Republician FA's be able to pick anyone born within the former Czechoslovakia?


Again, that's an irrelevant comparrison, you are talking about 2 seperate nations there that were artificially combined for a period, I don't believe there's any part of Slovkia where a large prtion of the population consider themselves Czechs or vice versa.

As as been said, no decision has officially been made on this as yet, the media have jumped the gun on it.