LOI in Europe 2023

[ifk101]

There is a player drain but noteworthy, not on the coaching side. Given our population base, interest in the sport, and ability to export players, maybe the coaching/ management isn't good enough?

[DCWA]

There is a player drain but noteworthy, not on the coaching side. Given our population base, interest in the sport, and ability to export players, maybe the coaching/ management isn't good enough?

Also through choice Bradley has turned down Lincoln and Higgins has turned down both Notts County and Barnsley in the last year. Had they took those jobs and one or both done well enough could’ve got the ball rolling on that front.

[Eminence Grise]

I had the exact same thought earlier today, IFK. I did a litttle digging into it to see what we might deduce from some basic info.



Manager
Age
Managed Abroad
Coached Abroad
Time as manager


Declan Devine
49
No
Dunfermline, 2006–2007
Fifth season


Liam Buckley
63
No
No
19th season


Ruaidhrí Higgins
38
No
No
Third season


Kevin Doherty
43
No
No
Fourth season


Stephen O'Donnell
37
No
No
Fifth season


Jon Daly
40
Hearts – 5 games, interim.
TPS Turku U23 and Asst Manager, both 2020-21
First season


Stephen Bradley
38
No
No
Seventh season


Damien Duff
44
No
Celtic, 2019-20
Second season


John Russell
38
No
No
Second season


Andy Meyler
47
No
No
Fourth season


Managers in italics are in their first senior managerial role.
Managers in bold previously played for the club they now manage.

Four out of the ten managers are debutants, and if you hold the view that Daly’s five games as interim manager with Hearts realistically counts for very little, then to all extents and purposes half of the division’s managers have never held a full managerial appointment before.

Daly does have coaching experience abroad, as do Devine and Duff – though none of the three have more than one season’s worth of coaching experience.

Half of the managers now manage a club they previously played for – and three of those are debutantes.

Three things jump out at me:


The managerial pool is narrower than it should be, when old boys are so dominant as managers. It's not always a case of better the devil you know.
The pool is too inexperienced: only two managers have more than five seasons (whole or part) on their CVs, and only one of those has over ten seasons. I wonder whether any other top flight domestic league has 50% of its managers in their first appointment. It makes me wonder whether managers are getting increasingly few chances to learn on the job and gain experience, as there is always a younger, presumably cheaper, cohort of debutants and the inexperienced snapping at their heels.
There is a complete and utter lack of experience of continental experience of football at a coaching level, Daly excepted. I’m inclined to discount Scotland, maybe unfairly, but it is largely part of the ‘British’ football tradition, the same as ourselves.


So, throwing out some contradictory inferences for discussion …


The league is not attractive to foreign managers, or club administrators are too insular in their hiring patterns.
The large number of European and further afield players who come here and flop do so because they’re not up to it, or the coaching they get is not sophisticated or evolved enough to maintain their standards.


I haven’t looked back on previous managers, but how many LoI managers went on to manage outside the league after or because of their LoI experience? Stephen Kenny, Pat Fenlon, and Paul Cook jump to mind, though none of them were outside the British sphere.

I’d argue that not producing the players is a lesser problem than not producing the managers. I'm off on holibobs tomorrow, so I won't get to do it, but digging through the last ten years to see how many managers have had more than four seasons or managed at least three clubs, how many haven't managed in the last five years and so on could throw up some interesting data.

[TheBoss]

I know there is a debate about the current level of performance of LOI. Just to add some stats to the equation here. I know that stats can be unreliable and does not take many factors into consideration. But it can be a good judge over a long period of time. So, here is a snippet comparing LOI performances from the last 3 decades:



Decade
Matches
W
D
L
FOR
AGST
W%
D%
L%
F/pg
A/pg
Q
NQ


2000s
136
40
35
61
137
186
29%
26%
45%
1.01
1.37
27
41


2010s
144
33
32
79
130
230
23%
22%
55%
0.90
1.60
23
45


2020s
71
25
13
33
80
105
35%
18%
46%
1.13
1.48
16
18

[EalingGreen]

Decade
Matches
W
D
L
FOR
AGST
W%
D%
L%
F/pg
A/pg
Q
NQ


2000s
136
40
35
61
137
186
29%
26%
45%
1.01
1.37
27
41


2010s
144
33
32
79
130
230
23%
22%
55%
0.90
1.60
23
45


2020s
71
25
13
33
80
105
35%
18%
46%
1.13
1.48
16
18



Interesting stats, to which I would add another if I may. At three points for a win and one for a draw, the percentage of points gained is as follows:
2000's - 155/408 = 38.0%
2010's - 131/432 = 30.3%
2020's - 88/213 = 41.3%

This might suggest an inprovement in results recently, but without necessarily also reflecting in an improvement in playing standards. For with seeding, more new small Associations joining UEFA, plus the introduction of the Conference League, I expect a higher percentage of recent games played were against "minnows" (Andorra, Gib, San Mar etc) than earlier in the century?

[pineapple stu]

In fairness, the changes to the draw in the last 20+ years - including the much easier first-round draws these days, particularly in the Conference League - as well as they ability of the champions to be knocked out three times (like last year) does render those stats largely meaningless

[EalingGreen]

In fairness, the changes to the draw in the last 20+ years - including the much easier first-round draws these days, particularly in the Conference League - as well as they ability of the champions to be knocked out three times (like last year) does render those stats largely meaninglessCrossed in the cloud with my Edited additional paragraph above - "great minds" and all that!

[yurt]

It looks like Rovers going 0/4 this year will end up costing our cup winners (I think in the 25/26 season) a place in the Europa League. Need to be in the top 33 and we're currently 32 but Finland, Latvia and Armenia are all likely to overtake us in the coming days and weeks.

A Derry win would be massive because it would leave HJK as the only Finnish team and we would have a small buffer over them if their results go badly in the next couple rounds, but even that is unlikely.

Kazakhstan and Kosovo will fancy their chances of passing us out too if they can pick up a few results, I think we're going to finish the season in 37th unless Derry and Dundalk pull of something big.

[pineapple stu]

On that note, Valmeiras of Latvia beat Tre Penne of San Marino 7-0 today; means Latvia draw level with us (until Thursday anyway)

They were 4-0 up after 12 minutes, which must be close to a record of sorts? Very rare to see a game start with a spree like that

[oriel]

Hadn't realised that no LOI club has ever come back from a 2 goal deficit in the first leg to win the tie. I was surprised to read that as without checking thought there were a few, Cork City v Cwmbran was one that sprung to mind 93, but they lost 3-2 away and won on away goals.

I do recall Dundalk 2-1 down to Fram of Iceland in 1981 ECWC and won 4-0 at home, but that was 'only' overturning a one goal deficit, need to go one more tomorrow, but not sure I can see more than a 2-0 win, that would take it to ET, but means need to keep them scoreless, not going to easy, at either end.

Still surprised it hasn't been done previously overturning 2 goals, but seemingly it hasn't.

[2 Year Contract]

Hadn't realised that no LOI club has ever come back from a 2 goal deficit in the first leg to win the tie. I was surprised to read that as without checking thought there were a few, Cork City v Cwmbran was one that sprung to mind 93, but they lost 3-2 away and won on away goals.

I do recall Dundalk 2-1 down to Fram of Iceland in 1981 ECWC and won 4-0 at home, but that was 'only' overturning a one goal deficit, need to go one more tomorrow, but not sure I can see more than a 2-0 win, that would take it to ET, but means need to keep them scoreless, not going to easy, at either end.

Still surprised it hasn't been done previously overturning 2 goals, but seemingly it hasn't.

Not quite a first leg deficit but still a 2 goal comeback, in 2009 Pats trailed Krylia Sovetov 3–1 on aggregate with 18 minutes of the second leg to go and ended up advancing on away goals. In that case we won the first leg 1–0 in Inchicore, then went 3–0 down in Russia in the return leg before scoring twice in the final 17 mins

[oriel]

That was a super comeback to be fair by Pats in 09.

[ger121]

Clubs have lost the away leg 1-0 and come back to win 3-0. Two examples that spring to mind are Bohs and Dundalk, both ironically against BATE. So has been done that a LOI team scores more than 2 in a second leg.

[joey B]

Bredabik 6-1 down on aggregate at half time in the second leg,not a great side I think…..

[Philosophizer]

Bredabik 6-1 down on aggregate at half time in the second leg,not a great side I think…..
7-1 down now. They weren’t any great shakes. As shown in the second half in Tallaght Rovers were able to put them under pressure. It’s just that Rovers were way off the pace for the rest of the tie.

[ger121]

7-1 down now. They weren’t any great shakes. As shown in the second half in Tallaght Rovers were able to put them under pressure. It’s just that Rovers were way off the pace for the rest of the tie.

8-3 now on agg. Lot of goals in this game. KI on their way to penalties it seems. 3-3 in that one.

[patsdad]

Dudelange will know how we felt when they did it to us. They’ve just overturned an away leg deficit to level their tie late in the second half then shortly afterwards conceded a sucker punch to go out.

[ger121]

KI win! Into 3rd round of CL qualifiers and guaranteed group stage football.

[joey B]

Klaksvik of the Faroes through on penalties against Hacken ,some result that....

[Philosophizer]

Klaksvik of the Faroes through on penalties against Hacken ,some result that....
Faroese team guaranteed group stage. Breidablik battered by Copenhagen, and Dudelange dumped out by a team from Malta.

Really puts in perspective how badly Rovers and Pats did this year.

[geysir]

Historic scenes in Sweden as Klaksvik dumped Hacken out after a pen shoot out, and fully deserved over the 2 legs. Klaksvik were seeded in that draw having taken on Ferencvarous' coef.
Copenhagen are CL group stage pedigree with 3 home draws, 2 of them against Europa league finalists. It's no wonder they outclassed Breidablik, who would've thought otherwise. Rovers in all probability were fortunate not to be paired with Klaksvik, and manage to just surrender meekly to a low pedigree Ferencvarous.

[geysir]

An interesting tidbit, 6 of the 9 goals in Copenhagen were scored by Icelanders including a hatrick scored by the the son of Breidablik's manager.

[joey B]

Servette had quite a result tonight aswell,red card in the 3rd minute and winning on penalties after being pretty big underdogs in the game....

[Munster Saint]

Faroese team guaranteed group stage. Breidablik battered by Copenhagen, and Dudelange dumped out by a team from Malta.

Really puts in perspective how badly Rovers and Pats did this year.

I can't dispute the poor performances, but to be fair (based on Transfermarkt) that Maltese team have cast the net fairly wide for their player pool with a squad that includes 7 Brazilians, 3 Colombians, 3 Croatians, a Uruguayan, an Albanian, a Jamaican, a Ghanaian and a Frenchman alongside a handful of Maltese.

[cláirseach]

I can't dispute the poor performances, but to be fair (based on Transfermarkt) that Maltese team have cast the net fairly wide for their player pool with a squad that includes 7 Brazilians, 3 Colombians, 3 Croatians, a Uruguayan, an Albanian, a Jamaican, a Ghanaian and a Frenchman alongside a handful of Maltese.

Were very fortunate to get past the Glens.

[pineapple stu]

Potential good news for Derry as Basel lead 2-0 in the first half in Kazakhstan - means they've levelled the tie 3-3 on aggregate now and are probably favourites to advance. Winners play either Derry or KuPS in the next round. Logistically Basel is a heck of a site easier than somewhere on the Russian border in northern Kazakhstan.

[2 Year Contract]

Potential good news for Derry as Basel lead 2-0 in the first half in Kazakhstan - means they've levelled the tie 3-3 on aggregate now and are probably favourites to advance. Winners play either Derry or KuPS in the next round. Logistically Basel is a heck of a site easier than somewhere on the Russian border in northern Kazakhstan.

I hadn’t thought of it that way. I was thinking they’d have preferred to play a team who are ranked well below a club of Basel’s level. Your thinking makes sense though, if the Kazakh's were to knock Basel out then it’s fairly likely they’d beat Derry handy enough anyways so avoiding the financial and logistical burden of a trip to Kazakhstan is probably the best Derry can hope for in the 3rd round (if they get there).

Kazakh's have pulled a goal back and lead 4–3 on aggregate after 55 mins

[2 Year Contract]

Full time in Kazakhstan, a trip to Asia awaits Derry or KuPS

[pineapple stu]

I hadn’t thought of it that way. I was thinking they’d have preferred to play a team who are ranked well below a club of Basel’s level. Your thinking makes sense though, if the Kazakh's were to knock Basel out then it’s fairly likely they’d beat Derry handy enough anyways so avoiding the financial and logistical burden of a trip to Kazakhstan is probably the best Derry can hope for in the 3rd round (if they get there).
Yep - although the LoI did beat Kazakh opposition the only time they met (Pat's in 2011), so you never know.

That said, I'm one of those who'd almost prefer to go to northern Kazakhstan over Basel; sounds far more interesting. Though Basel have the advantage of being a genuinely big club, and playing somewhere like the Joggeli is something LoI clubs don't get to experience too often. Even if, on current season form, any LoI club going there could get thumped.

[refjohn]

1-0 Derry - Cian Kavangh

[pineapple stu]

Derry haven't read the memo and take the lead in Finland! 3-1 up now

[EalingGreen]

Logistically Basel is a heck of a site easier than somewhere on the Russian border in northern Kazakhstan.Tell me about it! For not only is Kazakhstan east of Pakistan(!), but since Putin invaded Ukraine, most of the normal air routes (i.e. via Moscow) are now unavailable. Generally have to go via Istanbul, though Frankfurt may also be available?

That said, it wouldn't take too long a session in a Swiss bar to swallow up the saving on the air fare! ;)

[EalingGreen]

Derry haven't read the memo and take the lead in Finland! 3-1 up nowKups equaliser 1-1 (2-3 aggregate)

Ha! Linfield, 5-2 down to Pogon after the first leg in Belfast, have just gone 1-0 up in Poland. They couldn't could they? :eek:

Nah, the Poles are probably playing their U-15's. Which should still be enough. :p

[joey B]

Maher didn’t cover himself in glory for the equaliser….

[EalingGreen]

Maher didn’t cover himself in glory for the equaliser….Kups now 2-1 up on the day, approaching H-T.

[Philosophizer]

Yep - although the LoI did beat Kazakh opposition the only time they met (Pat's in 2011), so you never know.

That said, I'm one of those who'd almost prefer to go to northern Kazakhstan over Basel; sounds far more interesting. Though Basel have the advantage of being a genuinely big club, and playing somewhere like the Joggeli is something LoI clubs don't get to experience too often. Even if, on current season form, any LoI club going there could get thumped.
Kazakhstan looks amazing. Watched a travel show about it recently on YouTube. Check out CoolVision.

[Philosophizer]

Kups now 2-1 up on the day, approaching H-T.
Damn! Derry had started so well. I had high hopes for them after the early goal.
Looks like McEleney went off after 30 mins.

[pineapple stu]

Kazakhstan looks amazing. Watched a travel show about it recently on YouTube. Check out CoolVision.

Nearly took a train through it ten years ago but left it too late to get a visa. Had to go the full Trans-Siberian route instead and then down through Mongolia - though was also cool, but I'm conscious I've to come back to Kazakhstan alright!

Santa Coloma of Andorra have beaten Niksic of Montenegro 2-0 and are heading for extra time. That'll bring Hibs fans out in a cold sweat as they wait for their game against Andorran opposition later tonight (which they trail from the first leg)

[Nesta99]

Derry haven't read the memo and take the lead in Finland! 3-1 up now

I wish these George Hamilton types would just get lost!!

That pitch in Finland looks awful, massive advantage for the home side and just not on!!

[CSAD]

Im genuinely shocked this tactic of sitting back and defending our lead backfired.

[pateen]

Is the game available online?

[MichaelCherrito]

2-2 now.


Diallo at the second attempt from outside the penalty area. The keeper with a bit of LOI level.


3-2 now. Nice goal through the middle. Derry had started well the second half but you cannot concede two minutes after scoring if you want to make these goals count.

[Philosophizer]

2-2 now.
Go on Derry!

[pineapple stu]

Nope - 3-2 KuPS now

[Nesta99]

Was far too easy to get in behind Derry there, simple one-two and 2 attackers in on goal lining up. I dont recall to many really solid defensive performances that have worked out myself!? I didnt think Derry were sitting in that much tbh especially when have scored 2 away from home. The tie is still there, will need to dig deep though.

[Philosophizer]

Was far too easy to get in behind Derry there, simple one-two and 2 attackers in on goal lining up. I dont recall to many really solid defensive performances that have worked out myself!? I didnt think Derry were sitting in that much tbh especially when have scored 2 away from home. The tie is still there, will need to dig deep though.
Bloody hell they just can’t seem to pull away.

[joey B]

More goals in this for Derry yet,the Finns are no better at the back...

[MichaelCherrito]

Derry very much the better team in the second half. More possesion, more corners, more enterprising than the home side.


3-3 now!!!!

[CSAD]

Derry score, only tuned back in after the first half for the last 10 minutes and credit where its due Derry have went for it in the 2nd half and actually deserve to be leading. It's a shame really after all this they'll probably give up a **** poor goal now after all the hard work.

[MichaelCherrito]

Patching with a header from seven yards out a minute after Kavanagh had spurned a brilliant chance with a close range header.



FFS; try and defend a bit, lads.