All-Ireland League Thread

[EalingGreen]

Are you drunk? You seem to be implying that I said setting deadlines was a bad thing when I said the exact opposite.Setting deadlines is an idiotic thing, when you don't have anything to back it up.

I mean, if he can't persuade the IFA, who else is he going to go to instead to get the IL clubs on board?

I suppose he could always take his money elsewhere.

If he had any...

[Nesta99]

You were speaking in the present tense RH and I responded accordingly. I am aware that this project could deliver a number of benefits but only if it happens. Doing all to make it happen is needed but I doubt its failure will cost existing jobs as you suggest. You once again have not actually dealt with what I have said in countering your increasingly desperate point!

[EalingGreen]

Meanwhile, yet another LOI PD club must be dreading the next letter from the bank:

[Lee] Power says Swindon have lost a significant amount of money from not being able to play fixtures during the lockdown.

He said an exact figure was "difficult to quantify" but added: "It's well into its millions, not hundreds of thousands, of cash flow that has been lost."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52706893

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Setting deadlines is an idiotic thing, when you don't have anything to back it up.

I mean, if he can't persuade the IFA, who else is he going to go to instead to get the IL clubs on board?

I suppose he could always take his money elsewhere.

If he had any...

Setting deadlines is how business is done. Deadlines are how everything is done actually.

A yes take his AIL money to that other All Ireland Football league...


You were speaking in the present tense RH and I responded accordingly. I am aware that this project could deliver a number of benefits but only if it happens. Doing all to make it happen is needed but I doubt its failure will cost existing jobs as you suggest. You once again have not actually dealt with what I have said in countering your increasingly desperate point!

I wasn't talking in preset tense at all, I was explicitly talking about someone pitching the AIL to investors, TV rights buyers, sponsors. Its literally the whole conversion we're having. Keep up.

If you are in charge of spending a fund of money designed to generate income and you don't meet your targets your job is in trouble, if that is partially down to the fact you put a significant chunk of money aside for a project that was nothing more than an idea on paper relying on a group of historically renowned bigots working with those they're bigoted against.
Well then you're up **** creek without a paddle

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Meanwhile, yet another LOI PD club must be dreading the next letter from the bank:

[Lee] Power says Swindon have lost a significant amount of money from not being able to play fixtures during the lockdown.

He said an exact figure was "difficult to quantify" but added: "It's well into its millions, not hundreds of thousands, of cash flow that has been lost."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52706893

Irrelevant to the conversation. You're just showing your true petty colours now

[Buller]

Dutch and Belgian leagues set for merger.

The consulting company Deloitte has calculated that a so-called BeNe League could generate in the region of €400m a year in television revenue. In comparison, both the Dutch and Belgium top leagues earn about €80m a season in television revenue at the moment.

So together currently generate €160m between them at the moment, and joining together would push that to €400m.

https://www.transfermarkt.com/netherlands-and-belgium-want-to-merge-leagues-euro-400m-in-television-revenue/view/news/354233

Joining two markets pushes value up disproportionately higher than you would expect.

Very obvious opportunity to pump money into both domestic leagues. I think Lucid set a minimum prize money figure of a few million that would have to be secured before it would go-ahead.

I don't see anything to lose by trying?!

[EalingGreen]

Setting deadlines is how business is done. Deadlines are how everything is done actually.

You don't set deadlines you can't keep yourself, if you want to do business. KL indicated last June that he wanted a response by "the autumn", otherwise he couldn't wait around forever.

Then when he didn't get the response he wanted, he suddenly was able to wait around. Even though nearly a year later he still has nothing to offer in terms of hard cash, or even an assurance in principle of same. (Note the words "in principle", btw).



A yes take his AIL money to that other All Ireland Football league...
I'm not quite sure what you mean by that, but just so as you know what I meant, I was merely pointing out that if he cannot satisfy the IL/IFA, then he has nowhere else to go. Meaning that it was silly to try to impose unrealistic deadlines on them.
And even sillier when he then had to row back on his deadlines.



If you are in charge of spending a fund of money designed to generate income and you don't meet your targets your job is in trouble, if that is partially down to the fact you put a significant chunk of money aside for a project that was nothing more than an idea on paper relying on a group of historically renowned bigots working with those they're bigoted against.
There you go again.

Mr. P, who has direct, personal experience in this matter, has explicitly stated that your alleged "bigotry" has nothing to do with any of this.

I have previously pointed out the numerous activities where the IFA has happily and willingly co-operated with the FAI, including:
Blaxnit
Setanta
Carling Nations Cup
Victory Shield
Presidents Cup
Champions Cup
Regions Cup
UEFA U-21 Joint Bid
(Those are off the top of my head - there are others if I could be bothered to look)

I have pointed out where 4 of the 5 key figures at the top of the IFA are from a CNR background, plus many other staff at all levels.

It has also been pointed out that the most vocal support from amongst leading IL clubs has come from the Crues, whereas the most vocal opposition has come from the Reds.

And Lucid himself gave "credit" [sic] to the IFA for still keeping dialogue open only this morning.

ALL of the above constitutes clear proof that your allegations of "bigotry" are completely unfounded, indeed offensively so, whilst offering no evidence of your own.

Which is richly ironic, since another word for "bigotry" is "prejudice" i.e. to pre-judge.

And you have looked at this issue, saw the name "IFA" and immediately pre-judged them, mind made up.

"Physician heal thyself..." :rolleyes:

[Martinho II]

Never heard of Newington are they a belfast based team? I didnt look at the IFA website properly stupid Q what does CNR stand for? Is that catholic nationalist republican?

[Nesta99]

Setting deadlines is how business is done. Deadlines are how everything is done actually.

A yes take his AIL money to that other All Ireland Football league...

I wasn't talking in preset tense at all, I was explicitly talking about someone pitching the AIL to investors, TV rights buyers, sponsors. Its literally the whole conversion we're having. Keep up.

If you are in charge of spending a fund of money designed to generate income and you don't meet your targets your job is in trouble, if that is partially down to the fact you put a significant chunk of money aside for a project that was nothing more than an idea on paper relying on a group of historically renowned bigots working with those they're bigoted against.
Well then you're up **** creek without a paddle

I am well ahead of you RH, I am very glad you saw the flaw in my last post! So you were giving a specific example and I responded generically with a stock answer and hence I am not keeping up hmmm, cherry picked a single part of your point and ran with that and you felt it was a moot point? Funny that! I do hope you see the irony! But thank you for assisting me anyway and being predicable including the passive aggresive insults thrown in since you cant really be Angry RH...

I am bored of this though, people are entitled to their own opinion and interprestation of what is needed. People will make up their own minds on the opinions presented, to continue to flog ones own opinion in slightly varying but essentially the same point over and over has probably had plenty switch off long before now - I am guilty myself of getting sucked in to the going in circles, really saying nothing new, type discussion.

[EalingGreen]

Irrelevant to the conversation. You're just showing your true petty colours nowWhen you say "irrelevant to the conversation", you actually mean "inconvenient to the argument".

For you see, whilst I have freely acknowledged that LOI clubs have legitimate concerns as to the ability of IL clubs to provide competition on the pitch in any AIL, you refuse point blank to acknowledge legitimate IL concerns over the financial stability of many LOI clubs.

How many LOI clubs have gone bust in recent years; and/or are experiencing real financial difficulties presently; and/or rely completely on a benefactor to stay in business; and/or do not own their own stadium; and/or are running at a loss each year?

And that's just the PD - don't get me started on the basket-case that is the FD.

None of which gives me any pleasure; rather as someone who supports an AIL in principle, I don't like to admit either IL or LOI weakness. But in the present economic climate esp, it would be madness for the IL to rush into a speculative venture on a promise, then find they've nothing to fall back on if/when that promise fails to materialise.

And the case of Waterford FC is just the latest example from down South of the precarious nature of LOI club finances.

But heyho, that's probably the fault of the DUP, too....

[EalingGreen]

Never heard of Newington are they a belfast based team? I didnt look at the IFA website properly stupid Q what does CNR stand for? Is that catholic nationalist republican?Newington are a progressive Intermediate team from a Nationalist part of the Antrim Road in North Belfast.
As it happens, they co-operate with their neighbours Crusaders on a number of matters - there was even talk of them building/sharing a new ground a few years back, though that never materialised.

And yes, you're right about "CNR".

Ordinarily I hate to use such designations, or to try to ascertain backgrounds from names etc.

But sometimes when you're faced with ignorant, ill-informed and prejudiced accusations from people like RH, you can't avoid using accepted terms.

Anyhow, like Nesta99 (above), I've had enough of the debate being dragged down to the gutter by the likes of RH and EYG, so I'll leave it there for now.

[ifk101]

What are Glentoran's operating costs out of interest? I see they publish their balance sheet but curious to know what it costs to run Glentoran on a given year.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

You don't set deadlines you can't keep yourself, if you want to do business. KL indicated last June that he wanted a response by "the autumn", otherwise he couldn't wait around forever.

Then when he didn't get the response he wanted, he suddenly was able to wait around. Even though nearly a year later he still has nothing to offer in terms of hard cash, or even an assurance in principle of same. (Note the words "in principle", btw).

Nope he didn't say he wouldn't wait around, that was the journalists added comment. What he said was basically no time like the present. And he did get his reasons for delay when clubs said they liked the general idea but not the format.



I'm not quite sure what you mean by that, but just so as you know what I meant, I was merely pointing out that if he cannot satisfy the IL/IFA, then he has nowhere else to go. Meaning that it was silly to try to impose unrealistic deadlines on them.
And even sillier when he then had to row back on his deadlines.

He set feedback deadlines, which were met. How business works.



There you go again.

Mr. P, who has direct, personal experience in this matter, has explicitly stated that your alleged "bigotry" has nothing to do with any of this.

I have previously pointed out the numerous activities where the IFA has happily and willingly co-operated with the FAI, including:
Blaxnit
Setanta
Carling Nations Cup
Victory Shield
Presidents Cup
Champions Cup
Regions Cup
UEFA U-21 Joint Bid
(Those are off the top of my head - there are others if I could be bothered to look)

I have pointed out where 4 of the 5 key figures at the top of the IFA are from a CNR background, plus many other staff at all levels.

It has also been pointed out that the most vocal support from amongst leading IL clubs has come from the Crues, whereas the most vocal opposition has come from the Reds.

And Lucid himself gave "credit" [sic] to the IFA for still keeping dialogue open only this morning.

ALL of the above constitutes clear proof that your allegations of "bigotry" are completely unfounded, indeed offensively so, whilst offering no evidence of your own.

Which is richly ironic, since another word for "bigotry" is "prejudice" i.e. to pre-judge.

And you have looked at this issue, saw the name "IFA" and immediately pre-judged them, mind made up.

"Physician heal thyself..." :rolleyes:

Are you trying to say with a straight face that the IFA do not have an historical reputation for being bigots? A reputation that may make people hesitant to invest in a project involving them giving up some power and working long term consistently with the FAI? Whether or not the current board members are or not is largely irrelevant because that doubt is in the mind of everyone involved and without written commitments on the IFAs behalf their historical reputation and the number of players electing to play for the FAI does not help them. When you're dealing with business especially marketing departments image is everything and the IFAs image does not portray them as likely to work with the FAI in a power share capacity long term.

Also lucids hardly going to call them out while he still hopes a deal can be salvaged

[RathfarnhamHoop]

I am well ahead of you RH, I am very glad you saw the flaw in my last post! So you were giving a specific example and I responded generically with a stock answer and hence I am not keeping up hmmm, cherry picked a single part of your point and ran with that and you felt it was a moot point? Funny that! I do hope you see the irony! But thank you for assisting me anyway and being predicable including the passive aggresive insults thrown in since you cant really be Angry RH...

I am bored of this though, people are entitled to their own opinion and interprestation of what is needed. People will make up their own minds on the opinions presented, to continue to flog ones own opinion in slightly varying but essentially the same point over and over has probably had plenty switch off long before now - I am guilty myself of getting sucked in to the going in circles, really saying nothing new, type discussion.

You should really be a politician Nesta (not a compliment btw) since all you've said is "you didn't answer my question" without ever actually pointing out what part of the question I didn't answer.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

When you say "irrelevant to the conversation", you actually mean "inconvenient to the argument".

For you see, whilst I have freely acknowledged that LOI clubs have legitimate concerns as to the ability of IL clubs to provide competition on the pitch in any AIL, you refuse point blank to acknowledge legitimate IL concerns over the financial stability of many LOI clubs.

How many LOI clubs have gone bust in recent years; and/or are experiencing real financial difficulties presently; and/or rely completely on a benefactor to stay in business; and/or do not own their own stadium; and/or are running at a loss each year?

And that's just the PD - don't get me started on the basket-case that is the FD.

None of which gives me any pleasure; rather as someone who supports an AIL in principle, I don't like to admit either IL or LOI weakness. But in the present economic climate esp, it would be madness for the IL to rush into a speculative venture on a promise, then find they've nothing to fall back on if/when that promise fails to materialise.

And the case of Waterford FC is just the latest example from down South of the precarious nature of LOI club finances.

But heyho, that's probably the fault of the DUP, too....

I have done anything but refuse to acknowledge the financial instability of LOI clubs. I have quite explicitly said that the whole league is financially unstable

[Kingdom]

Dutch and Belgian leagues set for merger.

The consulting company Deloitte has calculated that a so-called BeNe League could generate in the region of €400m a year in television revenue. In comparison, both the Dutch and Belgium top leagues earn about €80m a season in television revenue at the moment.

So together currently generate €160m between them at the moment, and joining together would push that to €400m.

https://www.transfermarkt.com/netherlands-and-belgium-want-to-merge-leagues-euro-400m-in-television-revenue/view/news/354233

Joining two markets pushes value up disproportionately higher than you would expect.

Very obvious opportunity to pump money into both domestic leagues. I think Lucid set a minimum prize money figure of a few million that would have to be secured before it would go-ahead.

I don't see anything to lose by trying?!

Buller, there's more to that than meets the eye, I would think, and I'd be sceptical of how likely it is to happen. In terms of competition, clubs, influencing factors etc, there's less need for UEFA to stick their necks out and create precident for merged leagues by making a benelux league (for want of a better term). However the argument holds water, that a precedent is a precedent regardless of who sets it.If I'm wrong on this I'll gladly hold my hands up, but I think it's miles away in this jurisdiction to be honest - unless UEFA start from scratch and leave all options on the table in light of the effects of the pandemic.

For a start, there are strong rumours on the ground here that there is a serious financial crisis in Belgian football, in a couple of the big clubs. Such a merger of leagues and the increased finance would definitely solve problems.
I'm not sure about how it would be voted upon, but in Belgium it would likely see opposition from the lower ranked teams who in some cases are over-achieving*. It clearly states 10 Dutch sides and 8 Belgian sides. That definitely creates a two-tier in Belgium, as you could nearly split the big/successful/well-supported clubs over the rest into 8 & 8 in the Jupiler League.

*There are still issues in governing here, and in the split systems (Walloons and Flanders), despite efforts at trying to patch things up. There's an issue as well with the economy. Brussels aside the Flemish region is in much better financial health than Wallonia. I'm not sure how it would go down in Belgium, allowing the better clubs to join what one could describe as a Dutch/Flemish Super League (only Standard and Charleroi would be considered Wallonian's) thus pushing the Wallonian clubs in general into a poorer Belgian National League.

Another aspect as well, and it's referenced in the link you put up, is the European Super League prospect. Ajax are going to be all over that possibility. Not really sure what other clubs could push to be part of it (PSV aren't glamourous enough, while Feyenoord haven't had the success, and Anderlecht are small-fish continentally in the modern game).

I'd be reluctant to use the BE & NL possibility as an example (cue an announcement next month!).
I'm hugely excited by the possibility of an AIL, and don't underestimate the support at government levels either, either politically, or financially. There is big EU money to be tapped into as well for such a project, and our Ministries are pretty good at extracting such funds.

[Bucket]

@EalingGreen, you have mentioned one of the fears of IL clubs is that if the new competition fails, IL clubs will have nothing to fall back on. Why is that? If Lucids option 4 goes ahead, both leagues play as normal for two rounds of fixtures before going into the King of the Island cup. So when it goes tits-up, the IL/LOI will still be there. Won't it?

[EalingGreen]

Are you trying to say with a straight face that the IFA do not have an historical reputation for being bigots?
EG absent-mindedly taps his bigoted Prod fingers as he awaits reference to The Famine, Cromwell and 800 years of oppression, whilst wondering whether RH is ever going to make it into the 21st century.

Even the 20th century would be an improvement... :rolleyes:

Anyhow, whatever else about him, thank goodness Lucid doesn't share your blinkered, unyielding outlook on life. It offers some hope of progress dealing with the real obstacles which are currently blocking progress, rather the ones mouldering away in your imagination.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

EG absent-mindedly taps his bigoted Prod fingers as he awaits reference to The Famine, Cromwell and 800 years of oppression, whilst wondering whether RH is ever going to make it into the 21st century.

Even the 20th century would be an improvement... :rolleyes:

Anyhow, whatever else about him, thank goodness Lucid doesn't share your blinkered, unyielding outlook on life. It offers some hope of progress dealing with the real obstacles which are currently blocking progress, rather the ones mouldering away in your imagination.

Yeah not like the IFA haven't done anything questionable in the last decade.... Nevermind at every international game.

The only major sport on the island with two national teams. Between that and the GSTQ controversy a marketing director is going to be very sceptical of investing in anything without commitments from both sides.

And I'm not talking about Lucid I'm talking about the fact you're asking people whose whole job is centred around aesthetics to put significant sums of money on the line without any commitment from one party. You give anyone 30 minutes on Google to look into the relationship between the FAI and the IFA and they will be skeptical to say the least at the prospect of them working together for the long term in a project such as this and thus will not put any money aside for it.

[Mr_Parker]

Newington are a progressive Intermediate team from a Nationalist part of the Antrim Road in North Belfast.
As it happens, they co-operate with their neighbours Crusaders on a number of matters - there was even talk of them building/sharing a new ground a few years back, though that never materialised.

Newington moved to Solitude a couple of seasons ago. I was going to say they moved to greener pastures, but was afraid that RathfarnhamHoop would jump all over such terminology :act-up:

[Nesta99]

You should really be a politician Nesta (not a compliment btw) since all you've said is "you didn't answer my question" without ever actually pointing out what part of the question I didn't answer.

Ouch! Burnt...

[Nesta99]

Nope he didn't say he wouldn't wait around, that was the journalists added comment. What he said was basically no time like the present. And he did get his reasons for delay when clubs said they liked the general idea but not the format.


He set feedback deadlines, which were met. How business works.



Are you trying to say with a straight face that the IFA do not have an historical reputation for being bigots? A reputation that may make people hesitant to invest in a project involving them giving up some power and working long term consistently with the FAI? Whether or not the current board members are or not is largely irrelevant because that doubt is in the mind of everyone involved and without written commitments on the IFAs behalf their historical reputation and the number of players electing to play for the FAI does not help them. When you're dealing with business especially marketing departments image is everything and the IFAs image does not portray them as likely to work with the FAI in a power share capacity long term.

Also lucids hardly going to call them out while he still hopes a deal can be salvaged

On that logic why would anyone touch the FAI with the legacy of corruption, dodgy dealings, ticket touting, anti-domestic football etc. Lucid is mad in the head to have bothered!

*no answer required!

[Nesta99]

Buller, there's more to that than meets the eye, I would think, and I'd be sceptical of how likely it is to happen. In terms of competition, clubs, influencing factors etc, there's less need for UEFA to stick their necks out and create precident for merged leagues by making a benelux league (for want of a better term). However the argument holds water, that a precedent is a precedent regardless of who sets it.If I'm wrong on this I'll gladly hold my hands up, but I think it's miles away in this jurisdiction to be honest - unless UEFA start from scratch and leave all options on the table in light of the effects of the pandemic.

For a start, there are strong rumours on the ground here that there is a serious financial crisis in Belgian football, in a couple of the big clubs. Such a merger of leagues and the increased finance would definitely solve problems.
I'm not sure about how it would be voted upon, but in Belgium it would likely see opposition from the lower ranked teams who in some cases are over-achieving*. It clearly states 10 Dutch sides and 8 Belgian sides. That definitely creates a two-tier in Belgium, as you could nearly split the big/successful/well-supported clubs over the rest into 8 & 8 in the Jupiler League.

*There are still issues in governing here, and in the split systems (Walloons and Flanders), despite efforts at trying to patch things up. There's an issue as well with the economy. Brussels aside the Flemish region is in much better financial health than Wallonia. I'm not sure how it would go down in Belgium, allowing the better clubs to join what one could describe as a Dutch/Flemish Super League (only Standard and Charleroi would be considered Wallonian's) thus pushing the Wallonian clubs in general into a poorer Belgian National League.

Another aspect as well, and it's referenced in the link you put up, is the European Super League prospect. Ajax are going to be all over that possibility. Not really sure what other clubs could push to be part of it (PSV aren't glamourous enough, while Feyenoord haven't had the success, and Anderlecht are small-fish continentally in the modern game).

I'd be reluctant to use the BE & NL possibility as an example (cue an announcement next month!).
I'm hugely excited by the possibility of an AIL, and don't underestimate the support at government levels either, either politically, or financially. There is big EU money to be tapped into as well for such a project, and our Ministries are pretty good at extracting such funds.

Interesting stuff! You have me intrigued on the pending announcement. I have always tended to dislike proposals for pan-national, European Super league proposals as it just underpinned the growing gap between the haves and have nots in football. Certainly UEFA have been making decisions in trying to head off potential breakaway proposals from super-clubs, by gradually adapting the CL - guaranteeing places for big clubs almost and reducing access for us minnows. Maybe its the current economic woes that are to hit but I am less skeptcal these days. There is merit to the economic, political and social, positive potential that football can have in redefining borders. But as you have very clearlu outlined, there are always going to be people/clubs that will lose out and need to be protected also. I have no idea how that could be done mind.

In AIL terms, and what Buller has mentioned, not kicking off until there is x amount in the prize pot makes a lot of sense. This in itself guages interest from outside the football community. It would need somehow to be shown that this sort of money can be perpetuated beyond a first season, if there is real political will behind the proposals then this is attainable. Maybe I hoped that in some way political leaning on UEFA could have helped address the European qualification conundrum (setting precedences issues aside), but if prizemoney is sufficient, the scramble to get in to Europe (and progress) due to being starved of money domestically, will be less pronounced. Beyond finances in, via increased domestic prizemoney it could stabalise club finances as it helps removes the speculate to accumulate model that has blighted clubs over the years. Yes it is/was self inflicted spending beyond means, but it was aften about improvemnet, even survival if counter intuitive. There is so much potential to an AIL, and a real hope that it comes to pass, but I feel its one of those once in decades moments and if it isnt nailed, is aborted, we wont see another chance anytime soon! If there is political will genuinely behind it - well we have seen how much progress can be made in a relatively short timescale, so i'd be far more hopeful than previously.

Go on give us a hint on the announcement, be it on an AIL or other European footballing developments!!? ;p

[Martinho II]

Considering the funding thats available from the EU would the NI assembly also give funding also too I wonder towards a AIL or would that be from the UK government?

[Mr_Parker]

Considering the funding thats available from the EU would the NI assembly also give funding also too I wonder towards a AIL or would that be from the UK government?

What EU funding is this?

[Nesta99]

I presume it would be mainly under the Peace IV programme. But that runs out this year so Government could look to have another 5 year programme, Peace V which could have the AIL project specified as a significant target project. There are other smaller funds eg for Border regions that could apply but maybe only for some clubs. Socal inclusion funding projects, but would go to individual club initiatives and may not have a direct impact on the sporting side of things. There are cultural funding opportunities that at a push could be applicable. Brexit could have an impact on some of this for IL clubs.

[EalingGreen]

Yeah not like the IFA haven't done anything questionable in the last decade....
Tbf, I'd forgotten about the recent episode where the IFA's CEO got drunk in a hotel near Windsor after a game one evening and ended up singing UVF songs, whilst no-one else at the IFA turned a hair.




Oh wait.

I might just have got some of that wrong....

[EatYerGreens]

Considering the funding thats available from the EU would the NI assembly also give funding also too I wonder towards a AIL or would that be from the UK government?

Governments will fund tangible things like new stadiums etc, but they won't just give cash for prize money if that's what you're thinking?

[Martinho II]

Buller, there's more to that than meets the eye, I would think, and I'd be sceptical of how likely it is to happen. In terms of competition, clubs, influencing factors etc, there's less need for UEFA to stick their necks out and create precident for merged leagues by making a benelux league (for want of a better term). However the argument holds water, that a precedent is a precedent regardless of who sets it.If I'm wrong on this I'll gladly hold my hands up, but I think it's miles away in this jurisdiction to be honest - unless UEFA start from scratch and leave all options on the table in light of the effects of the pandemic.


I'd be reluctant to use the BE & NL possibility as an example (cue an announcement next month!).
I'm hugely excited by the possibility of an AIL, and don't underestimate the support at government levels either, either politically, or financially. There is big EU money to be tapped into as well for such a project, and our Ministries are pretty good at extracting such funds.

This is in relation to Kingdoms previous post about the funding that I was trying to query about.

[Martinho II]

Governments will fund tangible things like new stadiums etc, but they won't just give cash for prize money if that's what you're thinking?

For clubs based in the North though EYG who would they have to have approach? NI assembly?

[nigel-harps1954]

Tbf, I'd forgotten about the recent episode where the IFA's CEO got drunk in a hotel near Windsor after a game one evening and ended up singing UVF songs, whilst no-one else at the IFA turned a hair.




Oh wait.

I might just have got some of that wrong....

That gave me a good chuckle.

[Mr A]

Tbf, I'd forgotten about the recent episode where the IFA's CEO got drunk in a hotel near Windsor after a game one evening and ended up singing UVF songs, whilst no-one else at the IFA turned a hair.




Oh wait.

I might just have got some of that wrong....

Wait are you saying there might possibly be bigotry on both sides of the border? What an extraordinary thought!

[EatYerGreens]

For clubs based in the North though EYG who would they have to have approach? NI assembly?

No government, north or south, will provide prize money for domestic football in Ireland, if that's where you're coming from (apologies- I'm still not clear) ?

Re stadia, there is a Stormont budget available in the north that clubs can apply to.

[Nesta99]

I'm pretty sure that UEFA rules wouldnt allow it anyway. But by backing things elswhere it could free up money that could then be redirected. There can be broad interpretations, especially for social and cultural projects when it comes to applications that have the ear of government.

[Mr_Parker]

I presume it would be mainly under the Peace IV programme. But that runs out this year so Government could look to have another 5 year programme, Peace V which could have the AIL project specified as a significant target project. There are other smaller funds eg for Border regions that could apply but maybe only for some clubs. Socal inclusion funding projects, but would go to individual club initiatives and may not have a direct impact on the sporting side of things. There are cultural funding opportunities that at a push could be applicable. Brexit could have an impact on some of this for IL clubs.

If that's what he was referring to, then there is a long queue to get into.

[Mr_Parker]

For clubs based in the North though EYG who would they have to have approach? NI assembly?

:laugh: Not a mission they would hand out money for such.

[Mr_Parker]

Re stadia, there is a Stormont budget available in the north that clubs can apply to.

There is no budget for such. There is supposed money ringfenced, however it was first announced some 9 years ago. Since then it remains locked away for several reasons.

[EalingGreen]

There is no budget for such. There is supposed money ringfenced, however it was first announced some 9 years ago. Since then it remains locked away for several reasons.
The sum in the Regional Stadium Development Fund was (still is?) £36m.

It was originally formally announced in 2012 (iirc), though it was not meant to be disbursed until 2015 i.e. after the National Stadium Development Funds had been spent on re-building Windsor (i.e. Stage 1, which also covered Ravenhill and Casement).

However, the completion of Windsor was delayed because adjacent building work on Olympic Leisure Centre by Belfast City Council caused cracks to appear in the Kop* after a game in March 2015, meaning it had to demolished and re-built, thereby delaying the Regional stage. And iirc, that meant the Regional money wasn't allocated and begun to be spent before the Assembly collapsed in January 2017.

I personally can't claim any insight into the latest state of play over this money, but the pessimist in me fears that it may be reduced, or even pulled/diverted, such is the present crisis in public finance. But tbf, there hasn't been anything announced on these lines, so maybe it's just a matter of time before it begins to be distributed.


* - Being fairly new, a new Kop wasn't originally planned to be part of the redevelopment of Windsor, but the damage meant it had to be. The IFA sued for the cost of this additional work. And according to the Sunday Life at the w/e:

The case taken against Belfast City Council, a contractor and engineering firm was settled in Belfast High Court last November, and Sunday Life Sport understands the compensation was paid in the last fortnight.
"Both the IFA and Linfield took cases following the forced closure of the West Stand at the National Stadium," explained a Windsor insider. "Linfield's payout was a five-figure sum while the IFA's payout was much greater, in the millions."

[Buller]

Arguments against All Island League proposal:


NIFL clubs all earn the same embarrassing and pathetic amount as LOI clubs do in prize money, when all costs are added up.
It could never happen, Lucid is pulling figures out of the air.
The NIFL is very strong right now and we dont need it because our clubs never go bust.
We definitely wont be able to access Peace funds because the list looking for a slice of the 400m on offer is huge.



Arguments for All Island League proposal:


Modeling shows it could create a league valued 10 times higher than either league within 5 years.
Even in the inaugural year, its likely worth 4 times more value. Unnamed TV companies and sponsors Lucid have talked to backed this up with pre-bids. Conservatively, the initial year could have a prize fund in excess of €2m. An All Island League is a very tasty proposition.
If a minimum pool of prize money from negotiations is not got (€2m was mentioned in the AIL meeting I attended) the league would not go ahead.
With increased wages, youth can stay in Ireland longer, and our teams do better in Europe.
Far bigger chance of regular access to Europa Conference League prize money (which is rumoured to be similar to Europa League prizemoney)


All he's asking is the FAI and IFA to approach UEFA for sanctioning it, so that TV companies and sponsors could bid. Its chicken and egg without that. Proof of concept.

So the argument is that we should definitely not try, even though there's nothing to lose and everything to gain.

[EalingGreen]

Arguments against All Island League proposal:


It could never happen, Lucid is pulling figures out of the air.
The NIFL is very strong right now and we dont need it because our clubs never go bust.
We definitely wont be able to access Peace funds because the list looking for a slice of the 400m on offer is huge.
NIFL clubs all earn just as much as LOI clubs do in prize money, when its all added up.



Arguments for All Island League proposal:


Modeling shows it could create a league valued 10 times higher than either league within 5 years.
Even in the inaugural year, its likely worth 4 times more value. Unnamed TV companies and sponsors Lucid have talked to backed this up with pre-bids. Conservatively, the initial year could have a prize fund in excess of €2m. An All Island League is a very tasty proposition.
If a minimum pool of prize money from negotiations is not got (€2m was mentioned in the AIL meeting I attended) the league would not go ahead.
With increased wages, youth can stay in Ireland longer, and our teams do better in Europe.
Far bigger chance of regular access to Europa Conference League prize money (which is rumoured to be similar to Europa League prizemoney)


All he's asking is the FAI and IFA to approach UEFA for sanctioning it, so that TV companies and sponsors could bid. Its chicken and egg without that. Proof of concept.

So the argument is that we should definitely not try, even though there's nothing to lose and everything to gain.

When you believe in something, but then proceed to misrepresent and sneer at everyone who doesn't exactly believe in it, it doesn't strengthen your case, it merely reduces your credibility.

As well as reducing the likelihood of serious debate on threads like this.

HTH.

[Buller]

On the contrary, I'm trying to put some structure on a meandering 22 page thread that has offered little in substance. It was my reading of it. I'm very interested in it and was blown away at the AIL meeting I attended and nothing I've read here for the against arguments really makes sense to me.
I was not sneering at you.

Can you please bullet point your own arguments against?

[pineapple stu]

Arguments for All Island League proposal:

[LIST]
Modeling shows it could create a league valued 10 times higher than either league within 5 years
What modelling has shown this? Is this based on random figures from Belgium/Holland (completely different countries)? Why would an AIL create such value when the Setanta Cup was largely a damp squib of an event? And what does league value mean anyway?

Vague promises like this are one of the biggest arguments against an AIL tbh.

[osarusan]

What modelling has shown this? Is this based on random figures from Belgium/Holland (completely different countries)? Why would an AIL create such value when the Setanta Cup was largely a damp squib of an event? And what does league value mean anyway?

Vague promises like this are one of the biggest arguments against an AIL tbh.
I never see where these potential big numbers come from, because the only tournament that gives real insight is the Setanta Cup, which faded away after initial moderate success.

Perhaps there's merit to trying to hammer out a structure, then take it to a TV company and see how much they'll pay over a minimum number of years, then see if it's worthwhile.


It would be interesting to see how much a TV company and other sponsors would pay for rights to say a 15-team AIL. My own speculation is that initially the money would be decent (for a short number of seasons - I can't see a TV company committing to a long-term deal straight away), but once the viewing numbers came in (and dropped, as they would), the TV money on offer would drop also.

[ifk101]

I never see where these potential big numbers come from, because the only tournament that gives real insight is the Setanta Cup, which faded away after initial moderate success.

Basically. No concrete evidence an all-island league will work - or cross-border leagues for that matter. (eg The Royal League (Scandinavia's equivalent to the Setanta) didn't work as it ultimately did not attract the attendances or TV viewing figures that were earmarked.) Think there was a Baltic League that went the same way and for the same reasons.

It sounds good in theory but personally don't think it is a runner and surprising to hear there is support for it in IL circles. How would IL clubs (and players) adjust to the travel, time and expense of games down in Cork and the like? And not to disrespect the likes of Dungannon, Glenavon and Larne, but how marketable are these clubs to a presumed wider audience? Because it is only the top of IL that would be considered an addition to the current LOI club make-up?

[Buller]

What modelling has shown this?

Dutch sports data consultants Hypercube conducted a 5 month study on the entire concept. They're experts of going into a league, seeing how it is now, and through data and research, looking at what options there are to give the league a bounce.

They reformed the Danish, Dutch, and Swiss leagues very successfully and pushed revenues up.

Their projections in each of those cases was spot on. They dont pull numbers out of the air, it's backed up by metrics and real data.

They do work on Champions League and Europa League structures for UEFA.


Is this based on random figures from Belgium/Holland (completely different countries)?

No, the entire project isn't based on Belgium and Holland. I'm not sure that had any weighting on any of their actual analysis at all. I was using it as my own example.


Why would an AIL create such value when the Setanta Cup was largely a damp squib of an event?

It turned into a damp squid when Setanta Sports went bust and pulled the prize money. It was a great competition in the early years when there was something to play for, but it became a bit of an afterthought for some clubs, a nuisance even, because they were focused on the league.

The number of dead games in this split season proposal in minimal too, there is always something to play for. Successful competitions have as many moments of ‘glory and disaster’ as possible, and according to this format scores highly on that front.


And what does league value mean anyway?

The monetary value sponsors, broadcasters, and foreign clubs buying players, put on the league.


Vague promises like this are one of the biggest arguments against an AIL tbh.

It's about as concrete as a proposal as you could possibly have for a league that doesn't actually exist.

It's not exactly a leap of faith to investigate it further when you have nothing to lose. It's a well researched proposition by a successful sports data company in Europe - it deserves a looked at further!


How would IL clubs (and players) adjust to the travel, time and expense of games down in Cork and the like?

The split season being suggested would mean the NI clubs in question would only have one trip down to Cork every year.

[pineapple stu]

What modelling has shown this?

Dutch sports data consultants Hypercube conducted a 5 month study on the entire concept. They're experts of going into a league, seeing how it is now, and through data and research look at what options there are to give the league a bounce.
That's not really the question I'm asking though. I'm not asking "Who's done the modelling?", I'm asking "What modelling has been done?"

I've seen enough reports on Irish football by experts over the years which turned out to be utter bull**** once you had a vaguely critical read of them (Genesis, Conroy and Gabay three that come to mind). I remember also talking to Jim Roddy (Derry chairman) at the time of the Platinum One AIL proposal (which even featured on PrimeTime) and he was so far away in the clouds about the prospects it was unbelievable.

The Danish/Dutch/etc leagues had a far more stable base to work off of. The LoI and IL are basket cases by comparison. It doesn't follow that what worked there will necessarily work here.

So you'll have to forgive scepticism being a default position here, especially in the absence of a proper answer.



Why would an AIL create such value when the Setanta Cup was largely a damp squib of an event?

It turned into a damp squid when Setanta Sports went bust and pulled the prize money. It was a great competition in the early years when there was something to play for, but it became a bit of an afterthought for some clubs, a nuisance even, because they were focused on the league.
I think that's a bit simplistic. Or certainly I don't think you've shown cause and effect. I could just as easily say it turned into a damp squib when the novelty wore off, when it was evident IL clubs were struggling to compete (only Linfield were at the races for the most part), and when the tournament was expanded to something closer to AIL levels and UCD v Lisburn Distillery became a fixture. That all started happening around the same time as Setanta getting into trouble. But would it have happened regardless of financial trouble at Setanta? I think it was heading that way anyway. The arguments posted about the Royal League and Baltic League would back that up. And I don't see why an AIL wouldn't veer that way too.



And what does league value mean anyway?
The monetary value sponsors, broadcasters, and foreign clubs buying players, put on the league.
And again, how is this quantified though? It's all very easy to put something like that down on paper. Why's it going to happen? I'm seeing the underpants gnomes from South Park here, where they go from "Collect underpants" to "Profit!" Can you not see there's a big "scene missing" in all of this?

I get that putting money into the league will improve it obviously. But the focus here is on why an AIL in particular would improve things. Why not put money into the LoI and grow league value?



Vague promises like this are one of the biggest arguments against an AIL tbh.
It's about as concrete as a proposal as you could possibly have for a league that doesn't actually exist.
It's a format with no named sponsors or backers or media partners so far as I can see. Now I get that companies can't pony up cash now for something that doesn't exist - but there doesn't appear to be anything solid behind this. Is there even any solid expressions of interest for example? Or why can't these partners come onboard at LoI level first to show some initial commitment (at a lower price, naturally). Then you can get some confidence that something actually exists to build on. I just don't see that right now. And I also don't see what magic touch adding Glentoran/Larne/Crusaders is going to add (with all respect to those clubs) - that's the ultimate unanswered question here.

I've no problems investigating it further btw. I've always said I'm in favour of an AIL on principle. I've said before that the KOTI format is interesting in that (a) it doesn't lose European spots and (b) it can easily be unwound if not a success. But I don't agree with this view that an AIL, Lucid or otherwise, is the sudden panacea it's being made out to be. I would like it to be. But liking something to work isn't how things happen in real life.

[Martinho II]

What modelling has shown this?

Dutch sports data consultants Hypercube conducted a 5 month study on the entire concept. They're experts of going into a league, seeing how it is now, and through data and research, looking at what options there are to give the league a bounce.

They reformed the Danish, Dutch, and Swiss leagues very successfully and pushed revenues up.

Their projections in each of those cases was spot on. They dont pull numbers out of the air, it's backed up by metrics and real data.

They do work on Champions League and Europa League structures for UEFA.


Is this based on random figures from Belgium/Holland (completely different countries)?

No, the entire project isn't based on Belgium and Holland. I'm not sure that had any weighting on any of their actual analysis at all. I was using it as my own example.


Why would an AIL create such value when the Setanta Cup was largely a damp squib of an event?

It turned into a damp squid when Setanta Sports went bust and pulled the prize money. It was a great competition in the early years when there was something to play for, but it became a bit of an afterthought for some clubs, a nuisance even, because they were focused on the league.

The number of dead games in this split season proposal in minimal too, there is always something to play for. Successful competitions have as many moments of ‘glory and disaster’ as possible, and according to this format scores highly on that front.


And what does league value mean anyway?

The monetary value sponsors, broadcasters, and foreign clubs buying players, put on the league.


Vague promises like this are one of the biggest arguments against an AIL tbh.

It's about as concrete as a proposal as you could possibly have for a league that doesn't actually exist.

It's not exactly a leap of faith to investigate it further when you have nothing to lose. It's a well researched proposition by a successful sports data company in Europe - it deserves a looked at further!


How would IL clubs (and players) adjust to the travel, time and expense of games down in Cork and the like?

The split season being suggested would mean the NI clubs in question would only have one trip down to Cork every year.

Very well presented Buller. First I knew of Setanta Sports going bust thought it was Eir who bought them out?
I think it could take off big time this new competition if they trial it this way by keeping the two competitions separate north and south and then merge it towards the end.
The weakness with the Setanta sports cup is there was a mixture of small clubs and big clubs in it. In the first season we were in the group stages of it. I think that this competition can only work properly if the big clubs are in it regularly ie the likes of Linfield and Dundalk. So in this league concept the big clubs should rise to the top regularly.
The more I think about it the more I like this concept imo.
I wouldnt expect the government north and south to finance the prize money thats for the IFA and FAI to sort it out themselves maybe with UEFA chipping in also with this concept.

[EalingGreen]

Vague promises like this are one of the biggest arguments against an AIL tbh.

It's about as concrete as a proposal as you could possibly have for a league that doesn't actually exist.

Brandishing a "How to Make Concrete" book with some photographs of some Belgian concrete in it is not the same as some actual, er, concrete.

Fact is, clubs and Associations north and south have demonstrated their willingness to listen to what Lucid has to offer.

By this stage, they must be entitled to see the concrete. In front of them. On the table.



It's not exactly a leap of faith to investigate it further when you have nothing to lose.

What exactly does Lucid have to lose?

He informs us that he is comfortably off, so that he doesn't actually have to be doing this. In one sense, that must be a good thing, since it means he can be objective and long-term in his thinking etc.

But in another, it must be a real cause for concern, since he (who admits himself he was never a fan of Irish club football before) could easily just walk away and indulge in the next project which takes his fancy should this one crash and burn.

Now ask yourself what the club owners and supporters have to lose if it all crashes?

Basically their clubs, that's what. Clubs which may be modest in many ways, but also clubs which they and their predecessors have usually invested in hugely over decades, often at considerable personal cost and for little or no thanks or reward.

So that for the great majority of them, their ambition is not to win trophies or glory, or make great riches out of it - chance would be a fine thing! Instead, it's usually just to have a go at something they love, before handing it over to the next generation.

And Lucid is asking them to risk all that on a promise, some smart graphics and "models".

Personally I'd be more impressed were he putting in some of the money of his own that he tells us he's made.

[Buller]

Now ask yourself what the club owners and supporters have to lose if it all crashes?

Basically their clubs, that's what. Clubs which may be modest in many ways, but also clubs which they and their predecessors have usually invested in hugely over decades, often at considerable personal cost and for little or no thanks or reward.

So that for the great majority of them, their ambition is not to win trophies or glory, or make great riches out of it - chance would be a fine thing! Instead, it's usually just to have a go at something they love, before handing it over to the next generation.

And Lucid is asking them to risk all that on a promise, some smart graphics and "models".

Personally I'd be more impressed were he putting in some of the money of his own that he tells us he's made.

No absolutely not correct. He's not asking anyone to risk anything.

To reiterate, he's asking the IFA and the FAI to contact UEFA to seek approval to progress the concept.

After that they can set a minimum figure for prize money that would be needed to persuade clubs. €2m pot was mentioned as a baseline minimum required, through sponsorship and broadcasters.

He has been very clear, if this minimum figure is not achieved, the league does not go-ahead. Domestic leagues would not be suddenly scrapped while this progresses in the background. Clubs go on as usual if the minimum pot is not achieved.

The argument that there is some sort of risk in trying to progress the concept isn't really justified.

[pineapple stu]

Buller - what happens if the €2m is raised, then leagues are folded and replaced with an AIL, but the whole thing doesn't work out and two years later the prize money is below the "requirement"?

That's a clear risk. And the Royal League and Baltic League (which is more comparable to an AIL) both indicate it's a very real one.