All-Ireland League Thread [Archive] - Page 6

RathfarnhamHoop

04/05/2020, 10:22 AM

Well maybe they should have held the release back a bit, but I suspect they thought the timing had some advantages over a delay - it hasnt worked out that way.

Releasing it now has absolutely no problems with it, what hasn't worked out about it? There's literally no problems with releasing it now.

Delaying releasing it indefinitely until this is all over because of absolutely no reason would just be idiotic from a business perspective or any perspective really.

I'd put any amount of money on that if they hadn't released it you be here saying something like "we haven't heard anything from them in a while, must be struggling to get everything together, not a good sign"

Damned if they do damned if they don't.

Nesta99

04/05/2020, 1:31 PM

The last line is the only part of your post that is not debatable, as yes it is likely that some people would be of the opinion that Stu alluded to, that this is the perfect time with a change in season being forced upon leagues and even that there will be available column inches to discuss the proposal. What hasnt worked out about it? Well what has? Its has achieved nothing bar more questions and almost widespread rejection. If you say to have revealed the report would have been idiotic so be it. I say that that timing is off as everyone in football is preoccupied and it maybe if they wanted to guage a response from clubs then this may not be the the prime time. But it is all a matter of opinin, and both opinions are valid not 'idiotic' either way.

The timing for implemention could be right when leagues return due to the need to changing a league schedule. It would have been a folly to put out the proposal, maybe to take advantage of the disruption, if it is short on key info and it is short on the most important issue of finance! It has moved on from a template for discussion, or you seem to imply so RH, but all I see is a proposal that needs more discussion and preperation. Few clubs, if any, will just take a leap of faith.

RathfarnhamHoop

04/05/2020, 2:58 PM

Nesta99

04/05/2020, 5:08 PM

Timings purely coincidental, they've been saying this was coming around now for ages now sure. Putting together all that information in one place and consulting parties involved doesn't just happen.

You do know the whole report is based on feedback from clubs? They've already got that, publishing this is purely to keep the public in the loop. That's all.

Yes I do know, and as the report 'has been coming for ages' what difference would some additional time make, waiting for a calmer and less complex period, for the report to be issued as 'all' the information is in one place after consultation with parties involved done? Particularly as the report is still missing the most important component! It is my opinion that the public dont care about this currently, many clubs likely dont either. So releasing a report that will need goodwill and a positive response may have been released at an inappropriate time.

RathfarnhamHoop

04/05/2020, 6:56 PM

Yes I do know, and as the report 'has been coming for ages' what difference would some additional time make, waiting for a calmer and less complex period, for the report to be issued as 'all' the information is in one place after consultation with parties involved done? Particularly as the report is still missing the most important component! It is my opinion that the public dont care about this currently, many clubs likely dont either. So releasing a report that will need goodwill and a positive response may have been released at an inappropriate time.

Because this is the stage that they said they'd update the public once they reached it. If they didn't you'd have speculation and people saying that they were trying to hide something.

What component exactly do you think is missing?

The fact you and other people are even talking about it, read the document and watched the videos says the public does care about it. The fact you're posting about it just goes to prove that point.

The report doesn't need goodwill or a positive response at all, because ultimately Dave from Dundalk doesn't get a say and this is a proposal that all the clubs have looked into and like.

The only negative feedback I've seen is lack of European place for joint league winner, something the clubs have 100% already brought up, the name, which is a placeholder, the fact its complicated, which is probably just more down to the fact its new, when it's explained better they probably won't think it is, and the lack of secured money which is a stupid criticism at this stage.

Nesta99

05/05/2020, 12:12 AM

A stupid comment? Finances are what will drive this project without European incentive and without somthing concrete financially, its a premature report. I and others on this forum have been talking about it, maybe other LoI fora also but that hardly is an example that the public care. If the floating fan, sporting media et al are are engaged in this then yes it is a work in progress working - you and I debating it as already dyed in the wool supporters is hardly proof of the general engagement with the idea. Only negative feedbak is on European places? I cant speak for others but there are added criticisms. So all clubs have looked at this and liked, doesnt need goodwill or a positive response? Beyond support for SRFC do you have a vested interest in this? Maybe they shouldnt have gone public until it could be explained properly !

RathfarnhamHoop

05/05/2020, 11:42 AM

A stupid comment? Finances are what will drive this project without European incentive and without somthing concrete financially, its a premature report.

No it really isnt. Not having the information you want isn't the same as being premature. It doesn't have financial information because how are they supposed to secure funding based on an idea alone? Hard enough to get people to invest in LOI never mind with nothing more than, "look i haven't talked to the clubs or associations but will you give me money for something that needs their approval?". Join us in the real world if you think that's how things work. This is what they bring to potential investors to show them something concrete so they invest. The report pretty clearly states that all this is dependent on funding so its not as if they're just ignoring it

I and others on this forum have been talking about it, maybe other LoI fora also but that hardly is an example that the public care. If the floating fan, sporting media et al are are engaged in this then yes it is a work in progress working - you and I debating it as already dyed in the wool supporters is hardly proof of the general engagement with the idea.

No matter when this was released people outside LOI circles weren't going to be discussing it and nor do they need to because that's not what this is for at this stage.

Only negative feedback is on European places? I cant speak for others but there are added criticisms.

Not what I said but okay....

So all clubs have looked at this and liked, doesnt need goodwill or a positive response?

The clubs have looked at it and liked it, and it doesn't need a positive response from random people that just glance at it to progress. Not sure why you tried to group these together. I suspect you still haven't grasp the concept that this isn't for the clubs to look at, its just to keep fans in the loop.

Beyond support for SRFC do you have a vested interest in this?

No, I just have some semblance of an idea as to how these things work.

Maybe they shouldnt have gone public until it could be explained properly !

It has been explained properly, just people think differently and need things explained in different ways to understand them fully. The way it has been explained is perfect for some people which is obvious from the fact that some people understand it perfectly.
An example would be the NFL. You could go get a perfectly intelligent 40 year old person that doesn't watch NFL and try explain how the NFL works to them and they'd be confused, whereas you could go to America, pluck a 10 year old that likes the NFL out of class and they could explain how it works in detail no problem because they've been immersed in it, the format makes sense tot he clubs who've had the opportunity to ask questions to help wrap their heads around it and that's all that matters.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/now-is-the-window-to-properly-discuss-lucids-cross-border-vision-39181220.html

Nesta99

05/05/2020, 4:43 PM

Get back on your spaceship!!

RathfarnhamHoop

05/05/2020, 5:39 PM

Haha good one, realise you're wrong so resorts to (very poor) insults

Nesta99

06/05/2020, 9:49 AM

Not at all, I simply got bored! If I insulted you or looked like I was deflecting with an insult I apologise as Id be sparring with the best on that!

Finlay Harp

14/05/2020, 4:37 PM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52661088

EalingGreen

14/05/2020, 5:28 PM

disgruntled

14/05/2020, 5:51 PM

Interesting perspective.

This bit caught my eye:
The Brandywell outfit encouraged the respective associations and clubs to carefully study to Lucid's proposal, adding that "professional football is a sport, but it is also a business".

Considering DCFC came within an ace of going bust in 2000, then did so in 2009, needed major public money to upgrade the Brandywell and are only competing at present thanks to the generosity of a benefactor, they've not been "taking care of business" very well themselves before now.

I think very few clubs if any both North & South have much to crow about.
The deciding factor in this may be the attitude of the FAI & IFA.

EalingGreen

14/05/2020, 6:11 PM

I think very few clubs if any both North & South have much to crow about.

No doubt. But this was DCFC's statement, not anyone elses.

The deciding factor in this may be the attitude of the FAI & IFA.
That and Lucid's ability to come up with some hard cash from somewhere, rather than vague promises.

Mr_Parker

14/05/2020, 6:25 PM

A nonsense that the IFA & the FAI have agreed to jointly examine the report. That is completely untrue.

Also, it's already been well covered, here and elsewhere, that what is being portrayed in regards prize money, is absolute rubbish.

Mr_Parker

14/05/2020, 6:34 PM

A reminder

2843

EalingGreen

14/05/2020, 8:00 PM

A reminder

2843

Wow!

A reminder what DCFC were claiming:
"It always shocks fans when they discover that the prize money for winning the League in the north is �22,000 and in the southern league the prize money is �110,000."

Versus reality:

IL Net Prize money 2018/19: �372k

LOI Net Prize Money 2019: �150k (GBP conversion)

IL Net Prize Money 2019/20: �397k

Unless there is something missing from the above figures, then it demonstrates just how Delaney was taking the ****.

Buller

14/05/2020, 8:46 PM

Wow, very surprised by this. I think the LOI contribution fees have been permanently axed. They're quite unpopular...

RathfarnhamHoop

14/05/2020, 8:51 PM

Interesting perspective.

This bit caught my eye:
The Brandywell outfit encouraged the respective associations and clubs to carefully study to Lucid's proposal, adding that "professional football is a sport, but it is also a business".

Considering DCFC came within an ace of going bust in 2000, then did so in 2009, needed major public money to upgrade the Brandywell and are only competing at present thanks to the generosity of a benefactor, they've not been "taking care of business" very well themselves before now.

Well yeah that's sorta their whole point... that the current format isn't working and clubs are going bust so change is needed. They're not saying that they're a model to follow in the business side of things, if anything they're saying look we're an example of how hard it is to run a club in this island let's work together and fix that.

EalingGreen

14/05/2020, 10:09 PM

Well yeah that's sorta their whole point... that the current format isn't working and clubs are going bust so change is needed. They're not saying that they're a model to follow in the business side of things, if anything they're saying look we're an example of how hard it is to run a club in this island let's work together and fix that.
So when you can't/won't operate the present system properly, you just throw it out for a new, untested system instead?

Who's to say they'll do any better in the new Utopia?

And exactly what was so wrong with "living within your means"?

I'm not opposed to an AIL in principle - quite the opposite, in fact.

But DCFC are like some 18 y.o. who's keeps pranging the battered old VW Polo his dad bought him for his first car throwing the head up and demanding to be given a brand new Mercedes SL instead - what could possibly go wrong?

My advice would be to demonstrate you can drive safely in what you have before being let loose with something with a lot more oomph.

(Same applies to all clubs, both sides of the border)

Mr_Parker

14/05/2020, 10:22 PM

Wow!

A reminder what DCFC were claiming:
"It always shocks fans when they discover that the prize money for winning the League in the north is �22,000 and in the southern league the prize money is €110,000."

Versus reality:

IL Net Prize money 2018/19: �372k

LOI Net Prize Money 2019: �150k (GBP conversion)

IL Net Prize Money 2019/20: �397k

Unless there is something missing from the above figures, then it demonstrates just how Delaney was taking the ****.

Not only do those figures demonstrate a huge difference in contributions, but the quote of �22k as first prize also needs explained. What The NIFL clubs have agreed is that because 1st place now gets such a large UEFA payment, that the money for that position has been well reduced in order to give more money to the clubs further down the ladder.

RathfarnhamHoop

15/05/2020, 10:42 AM

So when you can't/won't operate the present system properly, you just throw it out for a new, untested system instead?

Who's to say they'll do any better in the new Utopia?

And exactly what was so wrong with "living within your means"?

I'm not opposed to an AIL in principle - quite the opposite, in fact.

But DCFC are like some 18 y.o. who's keeps pranging the battered old VW Polo his dad bought him for his first car throwing the head up and demanding to be given a brand new Mercedes SL instead - what could possibly go wrong?

My advice would be to demonstrate you can drive safely in what you have before being let loose with something with a lot more oomph.

(Same applies to all clubs, both sides of the border)

If it was one club making a loss you might have a point about it being an individual problem. When nearly every club in the league is running that's a problem with the system.

To even try suggest that the whole set up of the LOI in particular isn't at fault for a large proportion of the problems clubs in the league face is sheer ignorance.

To borrow your car analogy, it's more like trying to drive with a dodgy accelerator, yes it's possible to do but it's not exactly easy and you'd really rather the problem gets fixed to say the least.

EatYerGreens

15/05/2020, 11:41 AM

EatYerGreens

15/05/2020, 11:47 AM

If it was one club making a loss you might have a point about it being an individual problem. When nearly every club in the league is running that's a problem with the system.

To even try suggest that the whole set up of the LOI in particular isn't at fault for a large proportion of the problems clubs in the league face is sheer ignorance.

To borrow your car analogy, it's more like trying to drive with a dodgy accelerator, yes it's possible to do but it's not exactly easy and you'd really rather the problem gets fixed to say the least.

Agree with this. The system is wrong. Is any club in the LOI top tier genuinely sustainable ? And if they are (e.g. Sligo may claim to be), will they remain in that tier for much longer ?

Ealing Green's comments just read like repeated pot shots at Derry City. Ironic given that after years of being a financial basket case, Glentoran is itself now also benefitting from/reliant upon benefaction.

EalingGreen

15/05/2020, 1:22 PM

If it was one club making a loss you might have a point about it being an individual problem. When nearly every club in the league is running that's a problem with the system.

To even try suggest that the whole set up of the LOI in particular isn't at fault for a large proportion of the problems clubs in the league face is sheer ignorance.

To borrow your car analogy, it's more like trying to drive with a dodgy accelerator, yes it's possible to do but it's not exactly easy and you'd really rather the problem gets fixed to say the least.
Blaming the "system", like blaming the car is a cop-out.

The problem is quite simple: too many clubs gambling on success by spending money they didn't have.

The IL had this problem a decade or more ago, but in the end they (and the IFA) took ownership of the problem, introduced new rules/procedures and implemented them. As a result, clubs are now largely solvent (if skint!).

EalingGreen

15/05/2020, 1:26 PM

Cheap shot aside : are you disagreeing with what they're actually saying ?I'm disagreeing with the implication of what they're saying, namely that it is somehow inherently and structurally impossible for any LOI club to operate within their means in the present set-up.

Some clubs do so, even if many do not.

P.S. It is hardly "cheap" to point out simple, undeniable facts from the public record.

EalingGreen

15/05/2020, 1:41 PM

Ealing Green's comments just read like repeated pot shots at Derry City. Ironic given that after years of being a financial basket case, Glentoran is itself now also benefitting from/reliant upon benefaction.
Where was I factually incorrect about DCFC?

As for Glentoran, like DCFC they engaged in a financial arms race to try to keep up (with Linfield) and "buy" success etc.

But unlike DCFC, they never went bust, they never walked away from unpaid bills and they cleared their debts (partly by selling land which they owned). On the contrary, they did what it took to get the club back on an even keel even when the team on the pitch was suffering and all without receiving any public money to rebuild their stadium, or with European prize money.

So that with the mess having now been cleared up as much by by the club itself as this new investor, there is no valid comparison with the financial mismanagement at the Brandywell.

Of course, with the new regime's plans to take the club to the next level (f-t status), it may turn out that this is just the next arms race - who knows?

But as my dear old mother would have said: "Let me fall before you catch me".

RathfarnhamHoop

15/05/2020, 1:44 PM

Blaming the "system", like blaming the car is a cop-out.

The problem is quite simple: too many clubs gambling on success by spending money they didn't have.

The IL had this problem a decade or more ago, but in the end they (and the IFA) took ownership of the problem, introduced new rules/procedures and implemented them. As a result, clubs are now largely solvent (if skint!).

Right we'll take the wheels off your car and it'll be your fault when you can't make it drive anywhere, because that's what you've just said.

That's not what's happening because even the clubs not gambling on success and being as frugal as possible are running at a loss or very near to it.

So if Glentoran came out a decade ago and said something needs to change you would have told them to shut up because it's all their own fault?

When you answer bear in mind I have just quoted you saying yourself that changing the system in place helped improve the clubs solvency.

RathfarnhamHoop

15/05/2020, 1:55 PM

Where was I factually incorrect about DCFC?

As for Glentoran, like DCFC they engaged in a financial arms race to try to keep up (with Linfield) and "buy" success etc.

But unlike DCFC, they never went bust, they never walked away from unpaid bills and they cleared their debts (partly by selling land which they owned). On the contrary, they did what it took to get the club back on an even keel even when the team on the pitch was suffering and all without receiving any public money to rebuild their stadium, or with European prize money.

So that with the mess having now been cleared up as much by by the club itself as this new investor, there is no valid comparison with the financial mismanagement at the Brandywell.

Of course, with the new regime's plans to take the club to the next level (f-t status), it may turn out that this is just the next arms race - who knows?

But as my dear old mother would have said: "Let me fall before you catch me".

Being factually correctly means absolutely **** all let's be honest, I could hand pick facts about just about anything to suit any narrative I wanted.

You do know that the Brandywell is and alway has been owned by the council? It's a complicated agreement in fairness but the bottom line is that Derry City Council own the land.

EalingGreen

15/05/2020, 1:58 PM

Right we'll take the wheels off your car and it'll be your fault when you can't make it drive anywhere, because that's what you've just said.

That's not what's happening because even the clubs not gambling on success and being as frugal as possible are running at a loss or very near to it.

If the problem is the car, then fix it.
If the problem is the driver, then drive more carefully.

And until you do, don't just complain that driving anywhere is impossible, so that someone should give you a new car and a new motorway to drive it on, no further questions asked.

So if Glentoran came out a decade ago and said something needs to change you would have told them to shut up because it's all their own fault?

When you answer bear in mind I have just quoted you saying yourself that changing the system in place helped improve the clubs solvency.
Glentoran accepted they'd screwed up and went back to living within their means in order to clear up their own mess.

Over and above that, they and the other senior clubs, in conjunction with the IFA, worked hard to reform the system to make it work.

They didn't just throw their hands up and blame everyone else.

EalingGreen

15/05/2020, 2:05 PM

Being factually correctly means absolutely **** all let's be honest, I could hand pick facts about just about anything to suit any narrative I wanted.

Aye right, let's just ignore the facts then. :rolleyes:

You do know that the Brandywell is and alway has been owned by the council? It's a complicated agreement in fairness but the bottom line is that Derry City Council own the land.Er, yes.

But that doesn't absolve DCFC, it makes it worse! :rolleyes:

That is, even after being gifted a tidy new stadium rebuilt with public money, they still can't manage their affairs.

Or do you imagine that eg their neighbours in Ballybofey or Sligo wouldn't want to be in the same situation?

RathfarnhamHoop

15/05/2020, 2:15 PM

If the problem is the car, then fix it.
If the problem is the driver, then drive more carefully.

And until you do, don't just complain that driving anywhere is impossible, so that someone should give you a new car and a new motorway to drive it on, no further questions asked.

If it were one driver saying it you'd have a point. Every single club in the LOI has said things need to change though so at the stage when there's 20/20(19/19 if you exclude limerick) drivers saying the cars at fault then it's definitely the cars fault.

Clubs are driving carefully, look at sligo, invested in facilities, great local engagement, play the market well, offer low wages, strict budget, yet they still rely massively on extra fundraising.
Just accept that the system is broken despite whatever the chip you have on your shoulder about derry tells you.

Glentoran accepted they'd screwed up and went back to living within their means in order to clear up their own mess.

Over and above that, they and the other senior clubs, in conjunction with the IFA, worked hard to reform the system to make it work.

They didn't just throw their hands up and blame everyone else.

Exactly what Derry did. They may have gone bust in the process but that doesn't mean that since then they've gone back to living within their means just as much as Glentoran.

Which is exactly what Derry have said what should be done. I don't see how you've read it any differently. There's that chip again I suspect.

You clearly have issues with Derry for whatever reason and refuse to see the truth so as far as I'm concerned this conversation is over

EalingGreen

15/05/2020, 3:07 PM

If it were one driver saying it you'd have a point. Every single club in the LOI has said things need to change though so at the stage when there's 20/20(19/19 if you exclude limerick) drivers saying the cars at fault then it's definitely the cars fault.

The clear implication of all that is that it simply isn't possible for the ROI to sustain a professional football league (whether f-t, p-t or a mix of the two), without also bringing in a handful of clubs from outside?

Wow! Whatever happened to the first 80 or 90 years of the LOI then?

Just accept that the system is broken despite whatever the chip you have on your shoulder about derry tells you.

The "system" may be broken, I'll give you that.

But that's hardly the same as saying it's broken beyond repair.

My advice would be to prove you can fix the car and drive it properly, before looking for a bigger, faster car and taking it onto the new motorway.

Just like the IL has been forced to do.

Exactly what Derry did. They may have gone bust in the process but that doesn't mean that since then they've gone back to living within their means just as much as Glentoran.

Wtf!

DCFC are only still in business today because (a ) they were able to walk away from their debts; (b ) they received huge public moneys to gift them a new ground; and (c ) they've had a benefactor pumping huge amounts into the club for a decade(?) eg
The director’s report said that the club’s income for the year [2017] “includes a donation of �225,000 from Philip O’Doherty”:
https://fora.ie/derry-city-fc-philip-odoherty-3781884-Jan2018/

Whatever happens in future, none of that applied to GFC over the same period.

Which is exactly what Derry have said what should be done. I don't see how you've read it any differently. There's that chip again I suspect.

You clearly have issues with Derry for whatever reason and refuse to see the truth so as far as I'm concerned this conversation is over
Right, so when you can't/wont play the ball, you resort to playing the man then?

For the record, I have no "chip" on my shoulder over DCFC. I regret that they were forced to leave the IL, just as I regret that the IL didn't do more/better to keep them.

But it was a long time ago, they're content to be where they are and we're managing without them, so I'm over it.

Moreover, assuming a number of obstacles can be overcome (IFA to remain independent; IL's European places to be preserved; summer/winter calendar; rest of the NI pyramid not cast adrift etc), then I am in favour of any new AIL which could overcome them and offer the rewards being promised.

But just as LOI clubs might (properly) be concerned that too many IL clubs would be uncompetitive on the pitch and drag down the standard of play, as the fan of an IL club, I would be concerned that too many LOI clubs would continue to be irresponsibly run off the pitch and so bring the whole thing crashing down.

At which stage we might not have an IL to go back to.

P.S. When I say "too many LOI clubs", DCFC are only one of that number, and I only single them out because they issued their contentious statement in the first place. Had another club in their situation done the same, my response would have been exactly the same.

EatYerGreens

15/05/2020, 3:08 PM

If the problem is the car, then fix it.
If the problem is the driver, then drive more carefully.

And what should you do when a large part of the problem is the road itself ?

RathfarnhamHoop

15/05/2020, 4:05 PM

Fact you even think their statement is contentious in the first place says I'm right about the chip

EalingGreen

15/05/2020, 6:37 PM

Fact you even think their statement is contentious in the first place says I'm right about the chip
What else do you call it when they appear to have grossly misrepresented the prize money available in the IL (see posts #266, #267 and #271)?

Or talked about football being a "business" as well as a "sport", after two decades of running their own club in anything but a business-like manner?

Has 'Mr. Parker' also got a chip on his shoulder?

Martinho II

15/05/2020, 8:09 PM

Pardon my ignorance on this as this AIL was proposed a good few months ago by Mr Lucid remind me of this proposal of how this will work as I am a bit confused by this?

RathfarnhamHoop

15/05/2020, 8:18 PM

What else do you call it when they appear to have grossly misrepresented the prize money available in the IL (see posts #266, #267 and #271)?

Or talked about football being a "business" as well as a "sport", after two decades of running their own club in anything but a business-like manner?

Has 'Mr. Parker' also got a chip on his shoulder?

Where were Derry factually incorrect regarding the prize money the winner of the IL gets?

How has it not been run in a business like manner? Do you have intricate knowledge of how Derry City FC has been run that shows it hasn't been run like a business? Whatever that means.

RathfarnhamHoop

15/05/2020, 8:20 PM

Pardon my ignorance on this as this AIL was proposed a good few months ago by Mr Lucid remind me of this proposal of how this will work as I am a bit confused by this?

Leagues will run independently up to a point at which point as well as their normal round teams will play teams from the opposite league once each. Points from this round will form a joint league table which will lead to a knockout phase to decide the AIL winner.
That's the TLDR of it anyway.

nigel-harps1954

15/05/2020, 11:55 PM

Exactly what Derry did. They may have gone bust in the process but that doesn't mean that since then they've gone back to living within their means just as much as Glentoran.

Which is exactly what Derry have said what should be done. I don't see how you've read it any differently. There's that chip again I suspect.

You clearly have issues with Derry for whatever reason and refuse to see the truth so as far as I'm concerned this conversation is over

Living within your means doesn't require a �250k cash injection to pay the wages each year.

Either that, or I've grossly misinterpreted what 'living within your means' entails.

Where were Derry factually incorrect regarding the prize money the winner of the IL gets?

How has it not been run in a business like manner? Do you have intricate knowledge of how Derry City FC has been run that shows it hasn't been run like a business? Whatever that means.

You don't need intricate knowledge of how Derry City are run. The public accounts make it plainly clear how they're run. Businesses that require large sums of money pumped in each year to meet costs aren't well run businesses.

oriel

16/05/2020, 2:23 AM

DCFC are only still in business today because (a ) they were able to walk away from their debts; (b ) they received huge public moneys to gift them a new ground; and (c ) they've had a benefactor pumping huge amounts into the club for a decade(?)

Not sure this is true, Derry City are still (by far) the best supported team in NI, even if they play in LOI, last season avg was 3k, compared to next best within NI, which was Linfield at 2,300 I think.

RathfarnhamHoop

16/05/2020, 10:20 AM

Living within your means doesn't require a �250k cash injection to pay the wages each year.

Either that, or I've grossly misinterpreted what 'living within your means' entails.

You don't need intricate knowledge of how Derry City are run. The public accounts make it plainly clear how they're run. Businesses that require large sums of money pumped in each year to meet costs aren't well run businesses.

My point wasn't that Derry are living within their means exactly, it was that they are just as much as glentoran are, ie with a benefactor pumping money in.

Again my point wasn't that they're a well run business it's that they're being run in a business like manner because that description doesn't really make sense because businesses can make losses no matter how well run they are.
Derry aren't just having money thrown at them, there is some hope of a return and the investment isn't endless, that's a business like manner in my books.

DCWA

16/05/2020, 10:58 AM

How many clubs fans, if they are being honest with themselves care about their clubs financial management (or indeed mismanagement)?

If the worst case scenario for a League of Ireland club is to start from scratch in Div. 1 and as a new entity but carrying over every single thing associated with the previous entity except debt (therefore being, in a footballing sense, the exact same club) then there is no real deterrent at all.

If clubs have people willing to throw short term large sum money at them for short term success, is there something to be said for playing the boom and bust game?

In Derry City�s League of Ireland history we have never actually won a League title without financially crippling ourselves, but as a fan I am not sure I would change that to be honest.

Mr_Parker

16/05/2020, 11:05 AM

So if Glentoran came out a decade ago and said something needs to change you would have told them to shut up because it's all their own fault?

While, EG himself might not have done so at the time, many others did when the Platinum 1 AIL proposals were put on the table some years back, when the then Glentoran chairman and vice chairman, were championing the proposals and appeared to be heavily involved. Is it a coincidence that the same former VC is involved in Lucid's group?

Mr_Parker

16/05/2020, 11:06 AM

Where were Derry factually incorrect regarding the prize money the winner of the IL gets?

Yes they were in the context of the the statement they made. They misrepresent the facts.

And my only axe to grind, is with any club, media outlet or others, who continue to misrepresent such.

Mr_Parker

16/05/2020, 11:07 AM

My point wasn't that Derry are living within their means exactly, it was that they are just as much as glentoran are, ie with a benefactor pumping money in.

Again my point wasn't that they're a well run business it's that they're being run in a business like manner because that description doesn't really make sense because businesses can make losses no matter how well run they are.
Derry aren't just having money thrown at them, there is some hope of a return and the investment isn't endless, that's a business like manner in my books.

Have a read at their accounts.

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/NI601341/filing-history

EatYerGreens

16/05/2020, 11:55 AM

EatYerGreens

16/05/2020, 12:02 PM

I don't know Mr Parker or EalingGreen (no relation) to judge, but it wouldn't be unfair to point out that a lot of Irish League fans seem to have a small obsession or shoulder chip about Derry City to be honest. Always saying they should rejoin the IL or jumping on the media stories to that effect, for example, before inevitably claiming they wouldn't want them back when the club yet again makes it clear it won't be moving.

They deny it of course. But there's definitely a touch of the jilted/huffy former lover about some in the north :p

RathfarnhamHoop

16/05/2020, 12:24 PM

While, EG himself might not have done so at the time, many others did when the Platinum 1 AIL proposals were put on the table some years back, when the then Glentoran chairman and vice chairman, were championing the proposals and appeared to be heavily involved. Is it a coincidence that the same former VC is involved in Lucid's group?

My point isn't about what others may or may not have done, it's about EG being hypocritical because one party is Derry City.

Have a read at their accounts.

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/NI601341/filing-history

That shows numbers and not business plan. Running a business isn't as black and white as making a profit or loss

Yes they were in the context of the the statement they made. They misrepresent the facts.

And my only axe to grind, is with any club, media outlet or others, who continue to misrepresent such.

The numbers given are correct though but it could be said they were given in a context to suit the desired narrative, which if you read back through the posts is exactly why I said what I said because once again I said it purely to point out EGs hypocrisy when it comes to Derry City.