All-Ireland League Thread

[EatYerGreens]

There would be no leagues to go back to. If this plan went ahead, then for example, NIFL would be folded. That in itself raises another question. No where in Lucids numbers does he demonstrate who would pick up the tab for broken TV deals, sponsorship other related contracts and redundancy payments for the staff?

It wouldn't be impossible to just go back to separate leagues again if needed in the future. This is something that I imagine could be very easily agreed with UFEA in advance.

The stuff re winding down the current set ups is well made, but is hardly insurmountable. It's the sort of stuff that would be dealt with in detail if and when the fundamental principle of an all-island league was accepted. We're at first base still on all of this, so no point getting bogged down in such minutiae until the basic idea is supported.

[EatYerGreens]

Of course Politics will play a part, but what I am saying is that it is irrelevant to relate that to fans. Why did some journalists feel the need to mention Cliftonville fans as Catholics and Nationalists. Surely most LOI fans are the same. Why not mention that, for example, Cork have mainly Catholic supporters or Rovers are mainly supported by Nationalists. There is no relevance.

Jesus Mr Parker - this is really obvious stuff.

The general expectation is that those form a nationalist-background would probably be a bit more open-minded about and comfortable with proposals for an all-Ireland structure (in pretty much anything) than those from a unionist one. This is hardly news, and a few hours in the north will confirm that there is huge merit in this short-hand view.

Therefore Linfield fans not being supportive of an all-Ireland league would hardly be considered noteworthy, for example. But fans of a nationalist/Catholic club would be. Hence it got mentioned.

I can't believe that needed spelling out TBH :eek:

[Mr_Parker]

To tired to respond to all that tonight, but will do so at some point tomorrow.

[pineapple stu]

I can't provide you with evidence for what will happen in the future. Particularly for something which is a completely new venture. If evidence is what you need to support this, then you'll never support anything in fairness.

Rather - what can be done is take educated assumptions. For example :

- A league covering a bigger area & population is likely to be of greater interest (all other things being equal) to advertisers, broadcasters, sponsors etc than one which covers a smaller area. This is just how the marketing world works.
- Both the IL and the LOI are badly run currently, and receive zero marketing. It is therefore safe to assume that an AIL would do better than that on both scores (otherwise - why would they bother at all ?). And it's reasonable to assume that (again, other things being equal) a product which is marketed will do better than one which isn't. I think the potential upside here is actually quite big, if it's done well.
- The standard of the top level of an AIL is essentially guaranteed to be better than either the LOI or IL are individually. Because it would combine the best from both. So it would be a higher quality product from Day One.
- The novelty factor alone would give the AIL an initial boost (which could then be built upon to create ongoing interest). People and the media like new stuff. It'd be interesting, fresh, possibly even a little edgy. In short - a much easier sell than 2 leagues which have been around for 98yrs and 138 years and have done little to genuinely excite anyone for about the last 50 of those.
- I can see the attraction of a better TV deal for an AIL than for either the IL or LOI individually. Again - due to newness, scale, improved quality etc. Summer football will be very marketable to help fill schedules - which rules the IL out at the moment (not to mention the quality). I also think no-one has really tried hard to secure a good TV deal for Irish football, because those running it clearly don't have much faith in the product themselves (problem child anyone ?) and have done nothing to get it into a sellable state.

There's some of your evidence there. There are no guarantees available for what will happen in the future, so educated and reasonable assumptions are what we have to work with. And I personally think all the above are pretty reasonable assumptions to make. Personally speaking I just can't see how an AIL WOULDN'T be an improvement on the 2 individuals leagues. As it would be nigh-on impossible to not improve on what we currently have.

Sorry EYG - but strategically speaking, that post is rubbish


There's too much "Why wouldn't it work?" and no sign of a "Why would it work?"

You do need some evidence - even if it's just market research or similar. Otherwise you're just taking another hopeful stab in the dark. I can't believe the amount of times I've had to point this out in this thread. If you went into a multi-national company with an idea similar to one which had failed before, and your only logic was "It has to work now", you'd be laughed out of the place. Seriously, that's not how business decisions are made.

On some of your individual points -

+ A league covering a bigger area might be of more interest to marketers - but would it be enough? LoI and IL are pretty niche as it is, and a number of clubs struggle to get sponsors. This kind of income would have to support the proposed prize fund - without that income, the whole thing goes belly up
+ It is not remotely safe to assume that an AIL would be satisfactorily marketed. The entire history of the LoI can be summed up as "expect incompetence". Did Ollie Byrne market Shels well? In any event, what does "well marketed" look like? Would it generate any significant extra interest? Sufficient to keep the investors - if that's what they are - happy?
+ On a global level - and that's what you're competing with here - adding Linfield, Coleraine, Ballymena and Crusaders you the LoI is still a ****e league. I cannot understand the mindset of people who think that's what would turn the whole thing around. It's frankly delusional
+ "Fresh", "interesting" and "edgy" are all empty marketing words which don't actually mean anything. You might get some initial interest, sure. But would it last? Doubtful?
+ If summer football is so marketable, where's the LoI"s TV deal?

The problem here is you're just stating things you'd like to see happen. You've shown no reason why they would happen. Would an AIL be an improvement? Probably. Would it be sufficient of an improvement? Hard to see how. What happens when we don't reach 25 in the UEFA Rankings? ITV Digital all over again as far as I can see.

I'm in favour of the format btw. 14 team Premier and regionalised First Division - good. But format is the thing that's least broken about football in Ireland. Anyone who thinks TV and sponsorship and season ticket money will come flying in just because Coleraine et al join the LoI is talking utter nonsense.

[pineapple stu]

It wouldn't be impossible to just go back to separate leagues again if needed in the future. This is something that I imagine could be very easily agreed with UFEA in advance.

The stuff re winding down the current set ups is well made, but is hardly insurmountable. It's the sort of stuff that would be dealt with in detail if and when the fundamental principle of an all-island league was accepted. We're at first base still on all of this, so no point getting bogged down in such minutiae until the basic idea is supported.
Again - no. If this league is due to come in for 2021, as I think the plan is, then the minutiae absolutely need to be there now. The exit plan if the league folds needs to be in place. All the details need to be there now, because that's what clubs are being asked to evaluate.

I honestly cannot believe this needs spelling out to some people.

[EatYerGreens]

You seem to be treating ordinary fans on here as if they're Kieran Lucid.

I have absolutely no doubt that research etc is being done by the team behind the AIL. They appear to be taking a professional & business like approach to it all. The clubs as a whole will maje a very demanding audience, so they know they have to cover the bases.

So rather than bark at fans on here for not having conducted their own 1,000 sample size in-depth representative telephone and face to face market research to conclusively determine its viability, maybe hold your water & see what the professionals behind it all come up with ?

After all - you don't have any evidence to show that it wouldn't work either ;)

[pineapple stu]

I don't know if you're Lucid - I presume you're not - but this is a discussion forum. If you're going to say a plan would work because it's edgy, fresh and new, then the standard discursive response has to be to disagree with such empty marketing speak. You don't reference why this would be any different to the Setanta Cup. You don't say why this summer league would be ripe for a TV deal when the LoI doesn't have (a paying) one. There's lots of holes in your argument.

I haven't really argued why this wouldn't work because, once again, that's not how these things work. You try find why it would work.

And I've not been convinced by Mooney in the matter. 25th in Europe by 2025 is a stated aim - I think of the Lucid project; certainly of one of them - and that's not remotely achievable. The videos on the Twitter do a good job of describing a successful league, but don't really say how you get there. If it's the case that the investors are going to put in a million a year or whatever it is to drive this, well then what happens if we don't get to 25th? Do they withdraw their support? What then happens to the clubs who have the 2/3 year player contracts the video espouses? That's a recipe for ITV Digital. A poster earlier likened this to playing Ollie Byrne with the whole league, and there's something in that. Certainly LoI history says that it's the more likely outcome.

Obviously none of us are involved in the deal itself - but that's no reason to reduce debate on the matter to "This time it'll definitely work.

[Mr_Parker]

These sort of flawed objections pop up a lot. As if an AIL would mean just taking what currently happens and perpetuating it in a new structure.

The reality is that a new league would be a completely new start run by different people with new rules etc. I'd expect it to take a harder line on the licensing, as it is aiming to be a professional set up. And the bottom line re the FAI not enforcing licensing properly is that they just don't care. The AIL would be run by people who clearly do care about the concept, want it to work, and want it to prosper.

An AIL would not be business as usual, so any objections assuming it would are almost certainly going to be flawed.

You mention 'flawed', and it is appropriate that you do so as you are flawed in your assumption that a new AIL would be responsible for Licensing. Currently such rests with the national associations, not league bodies, as per UEFA Statutes.

[Mr_Parker]

It wouldn't be impossible to just go back to separate leagues again if needed in the future. This is something that I imagine could be very easily agreed with UFEA in advance.

The stuff re winding down the current set ups is well made, but is hardly insurmountable. It's the sort of stuff that would be dealt with in detail if and when the fundamental principle of an all-island league was accepted. We're at first base still on all of this, so no point getting bogged down in such minutiae until the basic idea is supported.

Bogged down in minutiae? Clubs are being asked to commit to this new league in a mater of a few months. We don't have any concrete details, let alone the finer points at this stage! Sure we have been told we cannot even get a commitment from UEFA to the number of European places until the 11th hour and after clubs have signed up to the AIL.

As "just go back", that doesn't need UEFA approval. However, how do the leagues "just go back" to all their sponsors and TV companies who they have torn up contracts with to jump to an AIL? Do they "just go back" to the staff they made redundant? Not to mention the player contracts that they would have agreed to for an AIL that would need to be terminated.

[Mr_Parker]

Jesus Mr Parker - this is really obvious stuff.

The general expectation is that those form a nationalist-background would probably be a bit more open-minded about and comfortable with proposals for an all-Ireland structure (in pretty much anything) than those from a unionist one. This is hardly news, and a few hours in the north will confirm that there is huge merit in this short-hand view.

Therefore Linfield fans not being supportive of an all-Ireland league would hardly be considered noteworthy, for example. But fans of a nationalist/Catholic club would be. Hence it got mentioned.

I can't believe that needed spelling out TBH :eek:

Except that was not the context in which such descriptions were used.

[Kingswood Rover]

Lads the AIL is an idea worth pursuing but similar to brexit nothing will be agreed till all is agreed. This is complicated stuff 2 associations agreeing to a 3rd party running a league that used to be part of their remit. This will happen eventually on this Island that i have no doubt just get on with it and let us get behind it.

[Mr_Parker]

Lads the AIL is an idea worth pursuing but similar to brexit nothing will be agreed till all is agreed. This is complicated stuff 2 associations agreeing to a 3rd party running a league that used to be part of their remit. This will happen eventually on this Island that i have no doubt just get on with it and let us get behind it.


https://youtu.be/AOOs8MaR1YM

[EatYerGreens]

You mention 'flawed', and it is appropriate that you do so as you are flawed in your assumption that a new AIL would be responsible for Licensing. Currently such rests with the national associations, not league bodies, as per UEFA Statutes.

Membership of the AIL would no doubt place requirements upon clubs re many facets of how they operate. It's already been stated that prize money will need to go on facilities etc. This is a form of licensing.

[Mr_Parker]

Membership of the AIL would no doubt place requirements upon clubs re many facets of how they operate. It's already been stated that prize money will need to go on facilities etc. This is a form of licensing.

Are you suggesting league regulations would in some way substitute the Licensing process? I really don't see what you are getting at. While important, facilities only are one part of many components. And regardless, that doesn't negate my point in regards to the apparent double standards being operated.

[Mr_Parker]

Have a read at the restrictions being imposed on Linfield fans announced today for their game against Dundalk in a couple of weeks. These have gone down like a lead balloon with their supporters and will hardly endear support for an AIL.

http://www.linfieldfc.com/ticketinfo.aspx?id=22261

The future?

[sbgawa]

Have a read at the restrictions being imposed on Linfield fans announced today for their game against Dundalk in a couple of weeks. These have gone down like a lead balloon with their supporters and will hardly endear support for an AIL.

http://www.linfieldfc.com/ticketinfo.aspx?id=22261



The future?

Wow !
I know that would be enough for me to say forget it lads i'll skip this one.
Dundalk will hardly reciprocate with this BS??

[Yossarian]

Wow !
I know that would be enough for me to say forget it lads i'll skip this one.
Dundalk will hardly reciprocate with this BS??

If it’s anything like the time we played them in the Setanta Cup then it will be the same, official buses in and out with a police escort.

[Nesta99]

Wow !
I know that would be enough for me to say forget it lads i'll skip this one.
Dundalk will hardly reciprocate with this BS??

It's pretty much the same arrangments that were put in place for the Setanta Cup game we played in Windsor. I have never seen as many riot police at any game Watford v Milwall, for example, included. Way OTT. Be interesting to know if these are Garda reccomendations or internal to Linfield. There wasnt even the slightest hint of hassle for the home leg of that Setanta Cup tie. All that said it was a bit of fun being in a large convoy of coaches heading to Belfast with PSNI outriders stopping traffic etc. Fun but tinted with that fact that it was deemed necessary.

[Mr_Parker]

Which there is absolutely no need for. Straight up the M1 to Belfast. Park the buses on the Boucher Road, with a short 3 minute walk into the ground. That route and side of the ground in completely neutral and sterile. Dundalk fans will hardly see a single opposition fan until they are seated in the stand. It is total overkill and I suspect the only reason such escorts will be put in place is to placate Linfield fans in that it would be used as, "well Dundalk fans have to do similar." Last night Cliftonville played at Windsor and had some 800 supporters at the game. People came by car, coach and on foot without any travel restrictions or escorts.

[Nesta99]

The coaches were all parked up in a retail park (cant remember which one) and fans were searched for flags etc that would be considered inappropriate (so Tricolours really). Didnt stop the damn flares being smuggled in. It was before Windsor Park was redeveloped so we entered the 'new' stand to the right facing the Kop end via a very narrow passage way that had high fencing and barbed wire. As we got to the ground then itself the entire way in to the stand had a line of police decked out in riot gear - then in contrast was a couple of chippy vans at the back of the stand. All Dundalk fans were in a couple of blocks on the upper tier. Kearns scored a hatrick and looked to really enjoy that - touch of irony now.

[Mr_Parker]

The coaches were all parked up in a retail park (cant remember which one) and fans were searched for flags etc that would be considered inappropriate (so Tricolours really). Didnt stop the damn flares being smuggled in. It was before Windsor Park was redeveloped so we entered the 'new' stand to the right facing the Kop end via a very narrow passage way that had high fencing and barbed wire. As we got to the ground then itself the entire way in to the stand had a line of police decked out in riot gear - then in contrast was a couple of chippy vans at the back of the stand. All Dundalk fans were in a couple of blocks on the upper tier. Kearns scored a hatrick and looked to really enjoy that - touch of irony now.

Boucher Road is the retail park you reference. However the entrance to the ground from that direction has been transformed. See pic below. I doubt too that the police will be kitted out like in the past as there is now a much softer approach in recent years. As for flags, numerous nationalities were on display last night including the Tricolour. However there is an unwritten agreement amongst clubs here that if such a flag is for purely political display, ie it does not have a club affiliation displayed on it, then normally it is not permitted. The most infuriating thing for visitors to Windsor these days is that you are not allowed to bring your own drinks inside.

https://live.staticflickr.com/1813/42298226014_9532290e35_z.jpg

[Nesta99]

That is some transformation as previously it was like being walked in to a remand centre. Tbh I can see why you cant take your own drinks in to the ground (I'm presuming you arent talking about a bags of Super T) as bottles of water are often not water lol.

[disgruntled]

Have a read at the restrictions being imposed on Linfield fans announced today for their game against Dundalk in a couple of weeks. These have gone down like a lead balloon with their supporters and will hardly endear support for an AIL.

http://www.linfieldfc.com/ticketinfo.aspx?id=22261

The future?

Shows how much fear they have of the travelling support being infiltrated by undesirables other than their own :)

[Real ale Madrid]

1188026454048681984

[Real ale Madrid]

1188026766943760384

[Real ale Madrid]

First of a few videos in previous posts on the All Island league by Lucid's group.

They will serve as a fantastic monument on balls.ie in 15 years time if it never happens!

[dundalkfc10]

Have a read at the restrictions being imposed on Linfield fans announced today for their game against Dundalk in a couple of weeks. These have gone down like a lead balloon with their supporters and will hardly endear support for an AIL.

http://www.linfieldfc.com/ticketinfo.aspx?id=22261

The future?

Last time was neccessary and was a great night, strange experience. It will be the same again

Was the same for all games in Setanta (offical club buses only) although we wer drinking beforehand v Cliftonville amd Coleraine bars at stadium.

Glentoran away pretty sure team had be escourted out ovrr secruity incident.

If Linfield fans made own way to Dundalk, 100% their would be trouble. Every wannabe provo and scumbag be out

[Mr_Parker]

Last time was neccessary and was a great night, strange experience. It will be the same again

Was the same for all games in Setanta (offical club buses only) although we wer drinking beforehand v Cliftonville amd Coleraine bars at stadium.

Glentoran away pretty sure team had be escourted out ovrr secruity incident.

If Linfield fans made own way to Dundalk, 100% their would be trouble. Every wannabe provo and scumbag be out

Yet Dundalk are pushing the AIL narrative, while the likelihood is that many fans from teams visiting Dundalk from the North will be treated in such a manner?

[dundalkfc10]

Yet Dundalk are pushing the AIL narrative, while the likelihood is that many fans from teams visiting Dundalk from the North will be treated in such a manner?

The club cant control scum on the streets. The Gardai cant even control them so what can Dundalk do?

I cant imagine 4/500 us be safe up around Windsor, Ballymena etc drinking before ganes either.

[Mr_Parker]

The club cant control scum on the streets. The Gardai cant even control them so what can Dundalk do?

I cant imagine 4/500 us be safe up around Windsor, Ballymena etc drinking before ganes either.

Did you not read my previous post about Reds fans at Windsor last night? That is the norm. All Irish League grounds can be accessed by away fans with little or no issues. Few have bars in the vicinity of the away end, and even if they do, people don't gather in them, but rather go straight to games.

However, from what you say, that would not be the norm for many going to Dundalk.

[Nesta99]

Last time was neccessary and was a great night, strange experience. It will be the same again

Was the same for all games in Setanta (offical club buses only) although we wer drinking beforehand v Cliftonville amd Coleraine bars at stadium.
Glentoran away pretty sure team had be escourted out ovrr secruity incident.

If Linfield fans made own way to Dundalk, 100% their would be trouble. Every wannabe provo and scumbag be out

That was brave!!

No way would there be '100%' trouble or no more than there would when Shamrock Rovers/Cork were visiting!!. That said even a minor incident between a Northern and Southern club would be escalated to beyond BS in the media so hence the need to be overly cautious. A single Dundalk (insert any club here) muppet could derail the possibility of an AIL which would be ironic as said muppet would likely be a raging republican shouting about unification. There were no issues at any of the Setanta Cup games that Dundalk were involved in bar the big love in between some Dundalk and Cliftonville fans in the Lilywhite Lounge which was nauseating stuff!

[dundalkfc10]

That was brave!!

No way would there be '100%' trouble or no more than there would when Shamrock Rovers/Cork were visiting!!. That said even a minor incident between a Northern and Southern club would be escalated to beyond BS in the media so hence the need to be overly cautious. A single Dundalk (insert any club here) muppet could derail the possibility of an AIL which would be ironic as said muppet would likely be a raging republican shouting about unification. There were no issues at any of the Setanta Cup games that Dundalk were involved in bar the big love in between some Dundalk and Cliftonville fans in the Lilywhite Lounge which was nauseating stuff!

They were even buying us shots in Coleraine bar. Was as safe as ive felt anywhere

[Nesta99]

It must have changed from my days at UU then so. Good thing obviously but we never dared venture far out of Portstewert of Portrush!!

[Mr_Parker]

It must have changed from my days at UU then so. Good thing obviously but we never dared venture far out of Portstewert of Portrush!!

I you survived those 2 towns, then you could survive anything! :D

[Nesta99]

Dont think my liver was unscathed. They were not towns mid 90s lol. Portstewert was a little less hassle due to not having to run the Dhu Varren gauntlet!!

[Mr_Parker]

IFA say NO AIL. Debate over for now.

[Mr A]

IFA are not having it: https://twitter.com/StevenBeacom5/status/1189923200060268551

[Mr_Parker]

The Irish Football Association has confirmed that it will not sanction any of its member clubs to take part in an all-island (All-Ireland) Football*League*as proposed by*Irish*businessman Kieran Lucid.

Having listened to the proposals from Mr Lucid and his team,*we believe the best interests of our member clubs and football in Northern Ireland are better served by remaining with the club-led model established in 2013 via the Northern Ireland Football League (NIFL)*

NIFL has gone from strength to strength since its inception in 2013 and continues to attract increased sponsorship and funding.*

The present distribution model, unanimously agreed by all clubs, ensures*all 12 teams in the Danske Bank Premiership*benefit from*the*prize fund.

This has created a*balanced league which has seen*a*substantial increase in attendances, awareness and television coverage. The potential income figures quoted in Mr Lucid’s proposals are highly speculative and lack specificity or guarantees.

UEFA competition places, prize monies and youth solidarity funding are important to our clubs and we do not wish to put these in question.

We*greatly*value our association and*club links with the Football Association of Ireland and are happy to both take part in, and enhance, cross-border*cup competitions at all levels.*

We already have the*new Unite the Union*Champions’ Cup,*played*for*between the champions of the Irish League*and*League of Ireland,*the Presidents’ Cup*for Junior sides*in both Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland*and a*proposed*new intermediate level competition.

[nigel-harps1954]

I wonder is this an attempt to kick Lucid into gear with further, more immediate, details?

[Mr_Parker]

I wonder is this an attempt to kick Lucid into gear with further, more immediate, details?

No. It is a no, plain and simple imo.

[dundalkfc10]

No. It is a no, plain and simple imo.

Ulster stays NO to trying something new.

Now thats a surprise

[seand]

In fairness getting buy in from the IFA or FAI to let their clubs bugger off from their leagues was always gonna be a long shot. The plan always seemed to be to get the clubs onside first and worry about the logistics later.

[marinobohs]

In fairness getting buy in from the IFA or FAI to let their clubs bugger off from their leagues was always gonna be a long shot. The plan always seemed to be to get the clubs onside first and worry about the logistics later.

Always going to be a long shot, and to be honest there is a massive amount of work needs to be done before anyone could buy into a AIL. All we can hope is that now the debate has begun that the work needed can be started.
It s vital to the success of the project that an AIL is a well thought out and properly structured league before it commences.Starting with some half baked, warmed up Setanta cup with a 'fix it as we go' mentality is likely to put a proper AIL back decades.

[Mr_Parker]

The key line in the statement.

"The potential income figures quoted in Mr Lucid’s proposals are highly speculative and lack specificity or guarantees."

If you can't get past that point, you are going nowhere and that's what happened.

[pineapple stu]

Not entirely surprising to be fair.

Would the same sponsors not be interested in getting involved in the LoI, even at a reduced rate? Put foundations in place and then build on it.

[Kingswood Rover]

What will happen with the 2 associations when eventually the country reunites, this will happen at some stage, hopefully before i check out.

[oldfan]

IFA are not having it: https://twitter.com/StevenBeacom5/status/1189923200060268551
Did anyone really seriously think that Unionist organisation would do anything else?

[ThirdManRun]

https://twitter.com/ballymenaunited/status/1189987129289531392?s=21

Any hope of the northern clubs defying the IFA extinguished.

Plan dead and buried before it got going. Shame to see. Hard to see how either league will become anything more than they currently are.

[pineapple stu]

But how would the Lucid plan have made the league anything more than it is?

The actuality of it, not the marketing-speak of it. The sentence quoted above is very significant -

"The potential income figures quoted in Mr Lucid’s proposals are highly speculative and lack specificity or guarantees."

It's not an encouraging statement at all. And one that's all too familiar in the LoI.

[ThirdManRun]

I suppose it allowed fantasists and dreamers have a degree of optimism about the future. Looking at it from a romantic perspective.

Now we can go back to wallowing in the mediocrity of going from one format to another.

Even the perceived optimism around the underage restricting is now turned on its head with 75% of players born in 2006 being released from LOI clubs to drop back in to schoolboy football.

A shiny and fresh new idea breathed some life into hopes for the league for some, back to the miserable reality now instead!