All-Ireland League Thread

[pineapple stu]

I suppose it allowed fantasists and dreamers have a degree of optimism about the future. Looking at it from a romantic perspective.
Best summary I've seen of the whole thing yet.

[sullanefc]

Hard to blame the IFA really. But we have to get our own house in order first anyway. This league isn't exactly growing as it is. We have lost Kilkenny, Kildare, Monaghan, Dublin City etc over the years. Teams in this country don't want to join, you can hardly blame the Irish League teams for not wanting to join either.

I also don't think adding IL clubs to this league is the silver bullet that Lucid thinks it will be. The IL's biggest club, Linfield, didn't exactly sell out TX in Europe did it? Also, the setanta cup had very poor attendances. The likes of Dungannon at home weren't exactly mouth watering fixtures. You'd also imagine the media hyping up the Shamrock v Linfield fixture as the Irish old firm fixture and getting all sorts of sectarian nonsense involved.

Let's grow our own league first. Let's get the Lucid type money for a LOI league first. Improve facilities, make the 1st division a league that new teams want to be part of. Have strict licensing that prevents cowboys from running clubs into the ground that makes a farce of the league.

The likes of Lucid would want more concrete proposals with solid backers before any club could sign up with his plans. A lot more due diligence required. Can't blame the IL clubs and the IFA for taking a cautious approach.

[marinobohs]

Hard to blame the IFA really. But we have to get our own house in order first anyway. This league isn't exactly growing as it is. We have lost Kilkenny, Kildare, Monaghan, Dublin City etc over the years. Teams in this country don't want to join, you can hardly blame the Irish League teams for not wanting to join either.

I also don't think adding IL clubs to this league is the silver bullet that Lucid thinks it will be. The IL's biggest club, Linfield, didn't exactly sell out TX in Europe did it? Also, the setanta cup had very poor attendances. The likes of Dungannon at home weren't exactly mouth watering fixtures. You'd also imagine the media hyping up the Shamrock v Linfield fixture as the Irish old firm fixture and getting all sorts of sectarian nonsense involved.

Let's grow our own league first. Let's get the Lucid type money for a LOI league first. Improve facilities, make the 1st division a league that new teams want to be part of. Have strict licensing that prevents cowboys from running clubs into the ground that makes a farce of the league.

The likes of Lucid would want more concrete proposals with solid backers before any club could sign up with his plans. A lot more due diligence required. Can't blame the IL clubs and the IFA for taking a cautious approach.
Nobody suggested "adding IL teams join this league". It's about a new start covering both leagues.

Yes, we need to grow the LOI but all Prem clubs bar two (Cork and Waterford I think) had increased fan numbers this season so it ain't all bad.
Can only hope the proposed new "structure" doesn't knock things back.

[wonder88]

Wouldn't give up on this yet. The all-Ireland league idea will not go away, I think, because it makes sense.
Nothing stopping those who want to "grow our own league first" from not doing so. They can start straight away both north and south, no need for them to get Lucid involved.
Don't see the extra travel negative at all, if I assume the the top division(at least) would be full-time.

[pineapple stu]

Nobody suggested "adding IL teams join this league". It's about a new start covering both leagues.
I think with respect to the IL guys, if a new league is 14 teams and it's 10/4 LoI/IL (not what's being proposed, but it could well pan out as such - it's proportional to population), then it certainly makes sense to think of it as adding 4 teams to the current LoI.

This whole "new start" stuff is as nonsense as it was when we had a "new" league in 2007.

[sullanefc]

Nobody suggested "adding IL teams join this league". It's about a new start covering both leagues.

Eh, that's not really what I meant. What teams get added to what league is merely a matter of perspective. A Linfield fan has LOI teams added to the league he watches and a Cork City fan has IL teams added to the league he watches. I didn't mean it to sound like the LOI was enveloping the IL.

To rephrase, a merger of leagues on it's own is not going to improve the fortunes of professional football on this island on it's own. A lot more needs to happen first IMO.

[jinxy lilywhite]

There were too many obstacles in place for this plan to work ie. The time frame of delivery and also the money being banded about as prize money as to what's currently on offer.
But it has got the conversation started and a recognition that a lot needs to be done both sides of the border facilitates wise, off pitch administrations etc before an all island league is considered

[disgruntled]

The only way an all Ireland league will ever come into being is if people leave politics & self interest out of the equation & we all know that will never happen.
It needs people to see the bigger picture rather than their own little patch.
Anyone who knows anything about football in this country knows the answer to that question.

The blazers say NO 😡

[sbgawa]

In some way the IFA dropping the boom on this might galvanize lucid as if he doesn't come out with s okmw hard numbers soon the momentum such as it is will be gone and all work to date is wasted.
To be fair to the IFA they have only made official what everyone was saying, no specific plans or numbers.

[pineapple stu]

Very true.

If Lucid is serious, the best thing he could do now is put in some investment/sponsorship into the LoI and help turn it into something that the IL clubs would be interested in joining/merging with.

And even then, that's subject to the idea that there's no particular reason why IL clubs should necessarily want to merge, and that staying where they are can be realism rather than lack of ambition.

[marinobohs]

I think with respect to the IL guys, if a new league is 14 teams and it's 10/4 LoI/IL (not what's being proposed, but it could well pan out as such - it's proportional to population), then it certainly makes sense to think of it as adding 4 teams to the current LoI.

This whole "new start" stuff is as nonsense as it was when we had a "new" league in 2007.

Even if they agreed a ratio (LOI : IL) wouldn't that have to be guaranteed for a period say 5 years or so to allow the league 'bed in' ?.That would mean no relegation/promotion for that period, pretty tough on whomever doesn't make the first cut.
Introducing promotion/relegation from the start cold very easily see one league weakened to an extent 'their' fans might lose interest in the whole thing. Either way, a lot more thought required.

[pineapple stu]

A league where, for example, Ballymena come 14th, Coleraine come 13th, but Bohs in 12th get relegated instead would be a pretty stupid league.

[Eminence Grise]

Random relegation regardless of final position is about the only 'improvement' the FAI haven't considered. Don't knock it. You just know someone in there will think it's a great idea.:rolleyes:

As I see it, the AIL proposal boils down to three options, in order of likelihood:


It's dead in the water.
Lucid scales back the project to the LoI only. Which means losing c.40% of the potential all-island TV audience, plus whatever overseas audience that includes. I doubt his investors would accept a diminished potential return unless they reduced their investment proportionally, so how much better off clubs would be compared to now is debatable.
Lucid provides enough specific financial detail to entice some Northern clubs to break away and join an AIL. And pigs'll fly.

[NeverFeltBetter]

A league where, for example, Ballymena come 14th, Coleraine come 13th, but Bohs in 12th get relegated instead would be a pretty stupid league.

If it's an All-Ireland League, it's an All-Ireland League. Teams from both sides of the border should have to sink or swim. Quotas for northern teams would make a joke out of the entire affair.

[sbgawa]

Random relegation regardless of final position is about the only 'improvement' the FAI haven't considered. Don't knock it. You just know someone in there will think it's a great idea.:rolleyes:







You might be on to something there Eminence.
The team that finishes last (this year UCD) gets 10 tickets, Dundalk as Champions get 1 ticket , Rovers get 2 etc etc.
All the Tickets get put into a big bowl and one ticket is pulled out in the Aviva Stadium in a massive end of season event and that is the relegated team for the year.
If we combine it with the cup final it would be a guaranteed sell out.
Dundalk as Champions have ony 1 chance in 47 of going down but it would still be exciting for their fans.....Rovers would have two chances of their ticket being pulled out TWICE AS EXCITING!!

I salute you sir....
Combine this with an AIL and the sky is the limit

[Mr_Parker]

A little bit more here on why the IFA said no.

https://www.irishnews.com/sport/footballsoccer/2019/11/01/news/ifa-refuse-to-sanction-all-island-league-but-work-will-continue-says-defiant-kieran-lucid-1753569/

[Eminence Grise]

You might be on to something there Eminence.
The team that finishes last (this year UCD) gets 10 tickets, Dundalk as Champions get 1 ticket , Rovers get 2 etc etc.
All the Tickets get put into a big bowl and one ticket is pulled out in the Aviva Stadium in a massive end of season event and that is the relegated team for the year.
If we combine it with the cup final it would be a guaranteed sell out.
Dundalk as Champions have ony 1 chance in 47 of going down but it would still be exciting for their fans.....Rovers would have two chances of their ticket being pulled out TWICE AS EXCITING!!

I salute you sir....
Combine this with an AIL and the sky is the limit

Way too much thinking there. But you can sign me up! Provided we get to use words like metrics, opportunity, blue-sky thinking and overseas investors in the marketing blurbs!

[pineapple stu]

A little bit more here on why the IFA said no.

https://www.irishnews.com/sport/footballsoccer/2019/11/01/news/ifa-refuse-to-sanction-all-island-league-but-work-will-continue-says-defiant-kieran-lucid-1753569/
Pretty damning if even half of it is true unfortunately.

Also - the eircom League?! That takes me back!

[Ezeikial]

You might be on to something there Eminence.
The team that finishes last (this year UCD) gets 10 tickets, Dundalk as Champions get 1 ticket , Rovers get 2 etc etc.
All the Tickets get put into a big bowl and one ticket is pulled out in the Aviva Stadium in a massive end of season event and that is the relegated team for the year.
If we combine it with the cup final it would be a guaranteed sell out.
Dundalk as Champions have ony 1 chance in 47 of going down but it would still be exciting for their fans.....Rovers would have two chances of their ticket being pulled out TWICE AS EXCITING!!

I salute you sir....
Combine this with an AIL and the sky is the limit

Maybe even build in a type of carbon offset bidding where clubs could buyback some of their relegation tickets.

[marinobohs]

A league where, for example, Ballymena come 14th, Coleraine come 13th, but Bohs in 12th get relegated instead would be a pretty stupid league.

Fully agree but a League where 3 IL teams got relegated first season is unlikely to be palatable to our Northern friends (or vice versus).

[redobit]

I always thought that it would be a good idea to run and AIL on a trial basis. Clubs could sign up for say 3 years and if its not working out then go back to the way it is now. No harm no foul. It might be an incentive to get NI clubs backing, knowing it is a trial and up for review in the future.

[marinobohs]

Random relegation regardless of final position is about the only 'improvement' the FAI haven't considered. Don't knock it. You just know someone in there will think it's a great idea.:rolleyes:

As I see it, the AIL proposal boils down to three options, in order of likelihood:


It's dead in the water.
Lucid scales back the project to the LoI only. Which means losing c.40% of the potential all-island TV audience, plus whatever overseas audience that includes. I doubt his investors would accept a diminished potential return unless they reduced their investment proportionally, so how much better off clubs would be compared to now is debatable.
Lucid provides enough specific financial detail to entice some Northern clubs to break away and join an AIL. And pigs'll fly.


Pretty accurate call, and the likelihood now

(1) 90%
(2) 9%
(3) the rest.

[sullanefc]

A league where, for example, Ballymena come 14th, Coleraine come 13th, but Bohs in 12th get relegated instead would be a pretty stupid league.
One way around that would be a conference style system. 1 north and two south. One relegated from each conference.

[El-Pietro]

Pretty damning if even half of it is true unfortunately.

Also - the eircom League?! That takes me back!

Eircom got some value out of that sponsorship deal. It doesn't even exist as Eircom anymore!

[Mr_Parker]

I always thought that it would be a good idea to run and AIL on a trial basis. Clubs could sign up for say 3 years and if its not working out then go back to the way it is now. No harm no foul. It might be an incentive to get NI clubs backing, knowing it is a trial and up for review in the future.

So, for example, NIFL tears up their current TV and sponsorship deals, and then just go back in 3 years time and all would be Ok? Oh, and clubs create a fulltime set up at considerable expense, sign players on that basis, and then just revert if it doesn't work? I could go on, but I think you will get my point.

[pineapple stu]

One way around that would be a conference style system. 1 north and two south. One relegated from each conference.
Basically amounts to the same thing though

[thebronze14]

So, for example, NIFL tears up their current TV and sponsorship deals, and then just go back in 3 years time and all would be Ok? Oh, and clubs create a fulltime set up at considerable expense, sign players on that basis, and then just revert if it doesn't work? I could go on, but I think you will get my point.
So what you're saying Mr Parker is that you're on the fence over the whole all Ireland league thing 🤔

[sullanefc]

Basically amounts to the same thing though
Optics stu. Optics.

[pineapple stu]

Maybe. But it'd look daft as a concept anyway I think. As it does in the States.

Bottom line is I don't think you can - or should - agree a set ratio of IL/LoI clubs in an AIL. It's either a proper league or it's not.

The further problem with Lucid, as I see it, is that the second tier would have been done on a federation basis, not a regional basis. That's really awkward. You could have Harps in the First Division South for example, and if two LoI teams got relegated, then what happens? In a regional split, a middling team geographically will move division, but you can't do that here. So you either promote two LoI clubs - and no IL one - or you relegate an extra IL team from the second flight. But was there even a third tier in all this to start with?

[nr637]

On the issue of finance, Lucid said: "We made it clear to the clubs that two broadcasters are interested, with one ready to do a deal right now in verbal discussions we have had.
"Headline sponsors are also interested, but it's hard for specific deals to be done at this stage without knowing whether a TV deal will be a pay TV deal or have a free-to-air aspect. It makes sense to secure a TV deal first."

Who are the TV broadcasters interested, RTE, UTV, BBC NI, SKY, VIRGIN.............

[WeAreRovers]

https://watch.dazn.com/en-GLOBAL/sports/

[Mr_Parker]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/50297634

[disgruntled]

Pretty accurate call, and the likelihood now

(1) 90%
(2) 9%
(3) the rest.

Agreed. I think its a dead duck.
I always felt that politics would kill this & unfortunately I may be right.
The blazers of the IFA were never going to agree with this no matter what was on offer.
If we could get over the politics then the rest would fall into place but I can't see it happening.

[pineapple stu]

Is it politics or the lack of a plan of substance that's killed this?

The Premier League broke away from the FA back in 1992, so I don't think the IFA have the power to stop this if clubs want to go ahead.

[mrtndvn]

Is it politics or the lack of a plan of substance that's killed this?

The Premier League broke away from the FA back in 1992, so I don't think the IFA have the power to stop this if clubs want to go ahead.

Politics. The substance is there for those with an open mind.

[pineapple stu]

Substance is either there or not. That's kind of what the word means. If it needs an open mind to "see" it, then it's not there.

[mrtndvn]

Substance is either there or not. That's kind of what the word means. If it needs an open mind to "see" it, then it's not there.

Nope. Some people are purposely not seeing it.

[pineapple stu]

Purposely not seeing what though?

I've already said the vision for the league as set out by Lucid was pretty good. I've seen nothing at all to indicate it was deliverable though.

[disgruntled]

Is it politics or the lack of a plan of substance that's killed this?

The Premier League broke away from the FA back in 1992, so I don't think the IFA have the power to stop this if clubs want to go ahead.

I would say both to be honest.
Substance in that the Premier League had the money & organisation behind them whereas here although we have the PCA for some years now nothing has ever come from it.
The very reason the FAI are running the League is because the clubs couldn't organise the proverbial.

Politics in that the IFA are black to the core & would have said no, no matter what was on offer.
Like the FA in the UK the IFA & FAI here will have to be dragged kicking & screaming into agreeing with anything.
In reality if this plan had solid finances & agreements in place it would be a no brainer & there would be little either Irish association could do about it.

[pineapple stu]

"Both" is probably fair enough actually.

[EatYerGreens]

Is it politics or the lack of a plan of substance that's killed this?

The IFA is a unionist-minded organisation. Football in NI has a unionist mindset. The overwhelming majority of clubs in the north are from unionist areas and/or have a fan base that is very largely unionist. Clubs from a Nationalist background are a rare creature indeed in the top 3 tiers of NI football - even though NI as a whole is about 45% catholic and 45% protestant. It is those predominantly unionist clubs in the pyramid that provide the officers that pack the various committees, top table etc in the IFA and NIFL.

It would be naïve in the extreme to think that an organisation which refuses to acknowledge there is an issue with insisting on a unionist flag and anthem for the supposedly cross-community Northern Ireland team is capable of looking at an all-island league in an impartial manner. They are not. There are very many in NI football and the IFA who will oppose it no matter what is involved. They will find lots of reasons and excuses to dress it up as being about football, but fundamentally it will be because they want nothing to do with the south.


The Premier League broke away from the FA back in 1992, so I don't think the IFA have the power to stop this if clubs want to go ahead.

That was a power struggle in which the clubs held the power, and the FA bottled it.

The clubs in NI have very little, to no power in reality. They need the European money - now more than ever. And that is at the behest of the IFA.

[pineapple stu]

I'll acknowledge that the northern mindset must have had a part in the decision alright. I'm surprised Lucid got as far as he did tbh.

But let's not kid ourselves into thinking that an AIL is the cure for all the LoI's ills either, as some posters seem to think. The league is in crisis, but that doesn't mean it can't get worse

[SkStu]

I'll ask this because it is on my mind, Stu. Is your reluctance to see the potential benefits of an AIL down to some protectionism related to how UCD would fare in that kind of set up? That they might become buried permanently in the lower echelons? I would understand if that were, at least partially, the reason because i could see it happening to smaller clubs.

[pineapple stu]

Nope. I've said before I would like to see an AIL.

I simply don't see how the AIL as proposed will deliver anything like the benefits suggested. Comments like "it'd be fresh" or "we have to try something" only serve to underline a serious lack of critical analysis in my view

[nigel-harps1954]

I don't think politics, mindset, or anything vaguely religious or otherwise played any part in the decision of our northern friends.

It's simply the lack of detail. You can't blame them to be honest.

There were a lot of details put out there, but a lot of the key financials were the issue clearly.

[Dalymountrower]

All Ireland cup competition to replace league cups north and south would be an interesting way to try and build confidence in an AIL, if UEFA were minded to throw in an extra Europa place, it might be attractive enough

[pineapple stu]

No way would UEFA sanction an extra European spot for that. It'd be an interesting competition - but would it really be much different to the Setanta Cup? Interesting tournament, but ultimately a failure

[Dalymountrower]

One more club in a preliminary round would be no problem to UEFA, particularly if it's pitched as a friendhip across the barricades. I'd like to teach the world to sing schtick.

[pineapple stu]

It'd set a precedent though. An extra spot for Czechoslovakia? The Baltics? Greece/Cyprus/Turkey? The Tunnocks Cup?

It's even less likely than Lucid's proposal.

[ashbournebohs]

No way would UEFA sanction an extra European spot for that. It'd be an interesting competition - but would it really be much different to the Setanta Cup? Interesting tournament, but ultimately a failure

Such a negative mindset. If it is to succeed it will be down to money. If the chap can deliver even half of what is/has been suggested it will be massive progress. All I've seen is comments like "league in crisis " "ultimately a failure" doomed "never happen" Unless you've been in a room or privvy to negotiations your not best qualified to write it off. I think some people might be a bit surprised it's nearly like the Irish mentality of begrudgement and wanting something to fail