All-Ireland League Thread

[EalingGreen]

No absolutely not correct. He's not asking anyone to risk anything.

To reiterate, he's asking the IFA and the FAI to contact UEFA to seek approval to progress the concept.
Obtaining UEFA approval is only a means to an end, that end being the establishment of a new concept which clubs are being asked to sign their whole future existence up to.

This being a concept which has no guarantees as to who its backers will be, how much actual backing they will produce, or assurances as to how long they will stick around should their own required Return on Investment not materialise.

So yeah, the FAI and IFA could get assurances from UEFA. But were I them, I'd be more interested in assurances from Lucid first.



After that they can set a minimum figure for prize money that would be needed to persuade clubs. €2m pot was mentioned as a baseline minimum required, through sponsorship and broadcasters.

Was this €2m for the first year? The first three years? Five? And why can't he point to a prior agreement of backing, at least in principle?

I mean, when set against the attractive sums he is promising an AIL can generate through TV and sponsorship etc, €2m is piddling. Why doesn't he pony up at least some of it himself from his own resources? After all, if this is the surefire hit he tells us it is, then he'd soon get it all back, with handsome interest.



He has been very clear, if this minimum figure is not achieved, the league does not go-ahead. Domestic leagues would not be suddenly scrapped while this progresses in the background. Clubs go on as usual if the minimum pot is not achieved.

The argument that there is some sort of risk in trying to progress the concept isn't really justified.
Why should the clubs and Associations spend time and effort on a project which its own proposers can't even progress?

I mean, they already have more than enough on their plate just now, or haven't you noticed?

Meanwhile, you might like to study a previous "Unstoppable Idea Whose Time Has Finally Come".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITV_Digital

If you haven't time, just skim down to the section: "Effect on football clubs":

"ITV Digital's collapse had a large effect on many football clubs. Bradford City F.C. was one of the affected, and its debt forced it into administration in May 2002.

Barnsley F.C. also entered administration in October 2002, despite the club making a profit for the twelve years prior to the collapse of ITV Digital. Barnsley had budgeted on the basis that the money from the ITV Digital deal would be received, leaving a £2.5 million shortfall in their accounts when the broadcaster collapsed.

Clubs were forced to slash staff, and some players were forced to be sold as they were unable to pay them. Some clubs increased ticket prices for fans to offset the losses.

The rights to show Football League matches were resold to Sky Sports for £95 million for the next four years compared to £315 million over three years from ITV Digital, leading to a reduction from £2 million per season to £700,000 in broadcasting revenue for First Division clubs.

In total, fourteen Football League clubs were placed in administration within four years of the collapse of ITV Digital, compared to four in the four years before."

No doubt ITV Digital had received all the necessary permissions etc, presumably after impressing the EFL and clubs with colourful charts, models and assurances... :rolleyes:

[Real ale Madrid]

Using the ITV digital thing as a stick to beat this with is a bit harsh. What happened ITV could happen any company or any sponsorship.

[Mr_Parker]

Oh, look what I have missed in the last 24 hours. Buller joins the party to debate all the points made over the last few months, yet only summarises then most recent portions of the debate. If a no intent going back over months of debate. Bottom line is, you don't build a house on sand, especially when the guy attempting to build it, has never built one, and can't even guarantee when or much sand there will be.

[EatYerGreens]

The debate about an all-island league is stuck in a circular hell.

The main argument for it is that it will step-change football in the country, through attracting significantly more revneue. And the main argument against it is that there is no evidence that will happen.

The only way to resolve this would be for both FAs to say to Lucid that if he can come back with proof of funding of X amount, then they will progress with the idea. And if he can't by a certain deadline, then they will consider it dead and disengage fully.

That would then give Lucid what he needs to firm up on the funding (or not). It would bring to an end the pointless hypothetical debate in each direction, and mean that money could and would have to be brought to the table. It would also expose if there are other issues at play for either FA in opposing the idea. And if it wasn't a goer, then it would kill the idea for the foreseeable future and stop it hanging around endlessly as a distraction (which it otherwise will continue to do).

So why wouldn't the FAs agree to this?

[EatYerGreens]

How would IL clubs (and players) adjust to the travel, time and expense of games down in Cork and the like?

If only there already were clubs and players on the island having to make even longer/more difficult journeys on a regular basis that they could learn from. Like in Derry or Donegal. Such a shame that there aren't. As for players having to adjust - they're not flying onto space FFS. How do players adjust when travelling from Southampton to Newcastle, Kilmarnock to Inverness, barrow to Yeovil etc for example ? You'd think we were talking about creating a league covering the greatest physical distance on the planet or something


And not to disrespect the likes of Dungannon, Glenavon and Larne, but how marketable are these clubs to a presumed wider audience? Because it is only the top of IL that would be considered an addition to the current LOI club make-up?

That's a silly question really. How marketable are the likes of UCD or Bray or Cobh to a wider audience? How marketable are Barnsley or even Bournemouth to a wider audience? What does that actually mean, and why does it even matter? We're not trying to create a league of global importance. No Irish club seems able to make themselves particularly attractive even to the people on their own doorstep at the moment sure, as attendances prove. Teams like Dungannon would probably not be perennials in any AIL top tier anyway, so wouldn't have to worry about this too much.

[oldfan]

Will Waterford's attendances increase if they were to play in this proposed AIL?

[Martinho II]

Will Waterford's attendances increase if they were to play in this proposed AIL?

I think it would decrease imo. If it was in their heyday in the 60s/70s there would have being huge interest.

[oldfan]

Indeed. 2 or 3 thousand extra people aren't going to turn up to see Crusaders or Coleraine !

[ifk101]

If only there already were clubs and players on the island having to make even longer/more difficult journeys on a regular basis that they could learn from. Like in Derry or Donegal. Such a shame that there aren't. As for players having to adjust - they're not flying onto space FFS. How do players adjust when travelling from Southampton to Newcastle, Kilmarnock to Inverness, barrow to Yeovil etc for example ? You'd think we were talking about creating a league covering the greatest physical distance on the planet or something That's a silly question really. How marketable are the likes of UCD or Bray or Cobh to a wider audience? How marketable are Barnsley or even Bournemouth to a wider audience? What does that actually mean, and why does it even matter? We're not trying to create a league of global importance. No Irish club seems able to make themselves particularly attractive even to the people on their own doorstep at the moment sure, as attendances prove. Teams like Dungannon would probably not be perennials in any AIL top tier anyway, so wouldn't have to worry about this too much.

What's with the hyperbole? And comparisons with full-time UK clubs? Relax. It's a quite simple point made that's not too taxing on comprehension levels. The IL is concentrated to Belfast - the furthest away game is an hour or so away - fine for a semi-pro club and player, similar to the LSL. If an all-island league is the future, the addition of the top of the IL to an expanded LOI would be preferable imo rather than trying to accommodate a greater number of IL clubs into a structure that pars the IL and LOI.

[EalingGreen]

What's with the hyperbole? And comparisons with full-time UK clubs? Relax. It's a quite simple point made that's not too taxing on comprehension levels.Agree.


The IL is concentrated to Belfast - the furthest away game is an hour or so away - fine for a semi-pro club and player, similar to the LSL. Not really.

Like the LOI, the IL is concentrated to the east. And obviously this "concentration" is exacerbated by NI being so much smaller in area than ROI.

But if you look closer, the 12 IL teams in the Premiership are divided between 9 towns/cities, whereas the 10 LOI clubs in the PD encompasses just 7 towns/cities. (And one of those is in NI! :cool: )


If an all-island league is the future, the addition of the top of the IL to an expanded LOI would be preferable imo rather than trying to accommodate a greater number of IL clubs into a structure that pars the IL and LOI.
Agree that in terms of competitiveness, professionalism and status etc, you wouldn't want a 50:50 split.

So that as things stand*, if you started off with eg the top 8 or 9 LOI clubs, then logically you would only select the top 4 or 5 IL clubs to join them. But this would produce two further problems in turn.

First, any new AIL would have to be a genuine combination of the two leagues, rather than just the old LOI with a few Nordie teams added.

Second, 12 or 14 teams is not enough to sustain such a league, especially if there is to be a proper pyramid below, with P & R.

And frankly, if you're going to add additional teams to take the league up to 16 or 18 teams, then you might arguably find at least as many extra candidates in the rest of the IL Premiership than in the LOI FD.


* - Tbh, the IL clearly needs time to catch up, the 'good news' being that some clubs do appear to be making progress on that front.

[EatYerGreens]

What's with the hyperbole? And comparisons with full-time UK clubs? Relax. It's a quite simple point made that's not too taxing on comprehension levels. The IL is concentrated to Belfast - the furthest away game is an hour or so away - fine for a semi-pro club and player, similar to the LSL. If an all-island league is the future, the addition of the top of the IL to an expanded LOI would be preferable imo rather than trying to accommodate a greater number of IL clubs into a structure that pars the IL and LOI.

It may be a simple point, but it doesn't withstand scrutiny I'm afraid.

Firstly - it's not only fulltime clubs in Britain that face long journeys. Look at Scotland's Fourth tier, where you have Annan on the English border playing Elgin and Cove at the other end of the country in the Highlands. The players seem to be able to cope with that, despite being only semi-pros.

Regardless - the key point is this.

There is only one club in the Irish League which would face longer journies in an AIL than Derry City currently does - and that's Coleraine, and barely by much. They would travel 12 miles further than Derry to get to Cork, for example. Every other club in the IL would face shorter journeys than Derry currently does, and the majority would face shorter journeys than Finn Harps and Cork currently do aswell - especially averaged over a season.

Also - the expectation is that an AIL would lead to more clubs turning professional anyway and there being more money in the league. Which would ease the burden of the travel on both clubs and players alike.

So how would it be unreasonable to expect IL clubs to play in such a league, but it's OK for Derry, Cork and Harps to do so ? Obviously players and clubs would prefer to minimise their journey times. Who wouldn't in life. But if that is an over-riding priority, then it's a charity for mediocrity. Let everyone play in their own little local mini-leagues then and to hell with anything more than an hour or so away.

[EalingGreen]

It may be a simple point, but it doesn't withstand scrutiny I'm afraid.

Firstly - it's not only fulltime clubs in Britain that face long journeys. Look at Scotland's Fourth tier, where you have Annan on the English border playing Elgin and Cove at the other end of the country in the Highlands. The players seem to be able to cope with that, despite being only semi-pros.

Regardless - the key point is this.

There is only one club in the Irish League which would face longer journies in an AIL than Derry City currently does - and that's Coleraine, and barely by much. They would travel 12 miles further than Derry to get to Cork, for example. Every other club in the IL would face shorter journeys than Derry currently does, and the majority would face shorter journeys than Finn Harps and Cork currently do aswell - especially averaged over a season.

Also - the expectation is that an AIL would lead to more clubs turning professional anyway and there being more money in the league. Which would ease the burden of the travel on both clubs and players alike.

So how would it be unreasonable to expect IL clubs to play in such a league, but it's OK for Derry, Cork and Harps to do so ? Obviously players and clubs would prefer to minimise their journey times. Who wouldn't in life. But if that is an over-riding priority, then it's a charity for mediocrity. Let everyone play in their own little local mini-leagues then and to hell with anything more than an hour or so away.
If everything else about an AIL was sorted, then the travelling distances wouldn't in themselves banjax it.

But everything else is not sorted - far from it - meaning that travelling is just one more problem which is hindering it.

Of course, if you were only talking 5 or 6 NI clubs, most or all of whom were f-t, then travel times and costs wouldn't be insurmountable.

Otoh, if there were only that number of NI clubs, then the resulting imbalance would cause problems of a different sort. (Basically, reluctance of IL and IFA to buy into the proposal)

Alternatively, if you admitted more NI clubs, then a lower proportion of their away games would involve travelling long distances.

Except that those extra clubs are more likely to be p-t, which would cause different problems again for an AIL.

In short, it's maybe not so simple as it at first looks. :cool:

[Martinho II]

Bit lost here with abreviations wots p&R and OTOH?

[oriel]

OTOH = On the other hand**
Dont see P&R, but p-t was used = part time

**I have young teenage kids, they only told me last week what TMI was (too much information) - when I was telling them about to be careful online, 'oh you mean LIKE - TMI ?

TTFN - thats one from Only Fools, Del used to the Yuppies - Ta Ta for now !

[EalingGreen]

Bit lost here with abreviations wots p&R and OTOH?
Sorry, Promotion & Relegation.

Also, OTOH (On the one hand) is often followed by OTO - I'll let you figure that one out yourself! :good:

[Martinho II]

Sorry, Promotion & Relegation.

Also, OTOH (On the one hand) is often followed by OTO - I'll let you figure that one out yourself! :good:

OTO on the other?

[Charlie Darwin]

OTO on the other?
On the Oxo - kids are so health-conscious these days that instead of drinking cans in fields they binge on stock cubes.

[Mr A]

On the Oxo - kids are so health-conscious these days that instead of drinking cans in fields they binge on stock cubes.

Honestly Charlie the level of debate on here would be a lot higher if you didn't just throw out stock answers like this.

[EatYerGreens]

Honestly Charlie the level of debate on here would be a lot higher if you didn't just throw out stock answers like this.

What's your beef ?

[Eminence Grise]

Very quick with the finger pointing, Mr A. Takes one to Knorr one.

[pineapple stu]

That's it.

You're going on my ig-Knorr list for that

[oriel]

Regardless - the key point is this.

There is only one club in the Irish League which would face longer journies in an AIL than Derry City currently does - and that's Coleraine, and barely by much. They would travel 12 miles further than Derry to get to Cork, for example. Every other club in the IL would face shorter journeys than Derry currently does, and the majority would face shorter journeys than Finn Harps and Cork currently do aswell - especially averaged over a season.



This is a great point, I always got the impression there is such a comfort zone in the IL with 3pm ko on a Sat and almost in all circumstances fans / players if from the same town back home in before 8pm and in most case well before 7pm.

The island is hardly that big for christ sake, if this is one excuse not to join, I would go as far say any club saying as much, well maybe this is just not for you.

[EalingGreen]

This is a great point, I always got the impression there is such a comfort zone in the IL with 3pm ko on a Sat and almost in all circumstances fans / players if from the same town back home in before 8pm and in most case well before 7pm.

The island is hardly that big for christ sake, if this is one excuse not to join, I would go as far say any club saying as much, well maybe this is just not for you.Tbh, I think this is a bit of a Straw Man.

While some fans might cite the travel distances etc, I don't actually know of one club which is opposed to an AIL just for that reason.

At worst, you might get the odd club which has other reasons for not wanting to join, who will add: "And then there's the travelling, too."

Or think of it this way. All the leading IL clubs (bar a couple?) have accepted Lucid's invitations to hear what he has to say.

They did so knowing the geography of Ireland.

[Charlie Darwin]

This is a great point, I always got the impression there is such a comfort zone in the IL with 3pm ko on a Sat and almost in all circumstances fans / players if from the same town back home in before 8pm and in most case well before 7pm.

The island is hardly that big for christ sake, if this is one excuse not to join, I would go as far say any club saying as much, well maybe this is just not for you.
I think the tradition of the 3pm Saturday kick-off is a bit stronger than just the convenience. Belfast was an industrial town in the 1900s so I'd say the introduction of Saturday as a rest day for the working class was just as key there as it was in northern England. I don't think we really ever had that connection in this part of the island for obvious reasons of neglect.

[EalingGreen]

I think the tradition of the 3pm Saturday kick-off is a bit stronger than just the convenience. Belfast was an industrial town in the 1900s so I'd say the introduction of Saturday as a rest day for the working class was just as key there as it was in northern England. I don't think we really ever had that connection in this part of the island for obvious reasons of neglect.
That is a very good point.

Remember, at the turn of the 20th century, when football was really taking hold, Belfast was both a bigger and a wealthier city than Dublin. That and the links with Scotland was why the game took hold in Ulster before it did in the rest of Ireland.

Though it wasn't until later in the 20th C that we moved to a full five day week - initially factories and mills worked on Saturday mornings as well. Which is why football matches took place on Saturday afternoons: you could work until midday or one o'clock and still have time for a pie and a pint in the pub before going to the match.

And of course the other thing which so bound football fans in NI to the tradition of the 3pm Saturday k.o. was that we didn't (dare) play games on a Sunday.

You know, for the salvation of our mortal souls and all that. :rolleyes:

Then there's winter football, which I know many people are attached to, even despite the logical arguments for moving to a summer season.

Now tbf to Lucid, he's never pretended to be a dyed-in-the-wool fan of club football in Ireland, but when rolling out plans which appear very logical and coherent on paper, I really don't think he "gets" why a lot of fans might not feel the same, bound as they are to habit, history and tradition etc.

[oriel]

I think the tradition of the 3pm Saturday kick-off is a bit stronger than just the convenience. Belfast was an industrial town in the 1900s so I'd say the introduction of Saturday as a rest day for the working class was just as key there as it was in northern England. I don't think we really ever had that connection in this part of the island for obvious reasons of neglect.

Yes totally agreed good point on Belfast, this was indeed the power horse and probably most important city on the Island 100 years ago and more. The rest of Ireland missed out really on the Industrial Revolution as we learned in school. Also when the Irish League was set up this was of course all Ireland and only Bohs and Shels are now still about from the ‘southern’ teams who took part, I think. Hence this is why NI retained the name and when ROI set up theirs in early 20s it was The Free State league and later it’s current name of LOI.

I still think the 3pm Sat ko would be a hard nut to crack for participating clubs to give up, unless the NI clubs played at that time for home and 745 on Friday for eg on away games. The 3pm sat ko will also suit the NI part time clubs who’s players work during the week.

Then again 3pm sat will not be attractive to many broadcasters.

[Martinho II]

Thats interesting that Belfast was the main city of the whole island of Ireland. How much bigger was it than Dublin and what caused Belfasts decline in population?When did Dublin overtake Belfast in status and population size?
Sorry for all the questions but Im a bit intrigued!

[Eminence Grise]

The population of Belfast was a smidge under 400k in 1911 and Dublin around 300k, iirc. Belfast's two biggest industries were shipbuilding and linen and both went into decline by the 1920s - shipbuilding because there was a glut of ships available after the war and linen because cheaper materials were available. Add Prohibition in the US which cut off the whiskey export market and the scene was set for long term economic decline. I don't know when Dublin overtook Belfast but it was bigger by the late 1940s at any rate - which is some shift in less than 40 years.

[EalingGreen]

The population of Belfast was a smidge under 400k in 1911 and Dublin around 300k, iirc. Belfast's two biggest industries were shipbuilding and linen and both went into decline by the 1920s - shipbuilding because there was a glut of ships available after the war and linen because cheaper materials were available. Add Prohibition in the US which cut off the whiskey export market and the scene was set for long term economic decline. I don't know when Dublin overtook Belfast but it was bigger by the late 1940s at any rate - which is some shift in less than 40 years.
The population of Belfast in 1911 was 387k and Dublin's 305k, as you say.
Dublin as a proportion of the 26 counties (3,140k) represented 9.7%.

By 1946, the population of Dublin was 636k, but with the overall population of the 26 having declined slightly to 2,955k, this now represented 21.5%.

In other words, there was a huge population transfer from country to city, doubtless for economic reasons, esp the decline of agriculture.

The picture was different in NI. Between 1911 and 1951 (no 1946 census), the population rose from 1,130k to 1,371k = 18%. Meanwhile, the population of Belfast went from 387k to 444k, an increase of 13%.

I think I read somewhere that at the start of the 20th century, Ulster (9 counties) produced over 75% of Ireland's GDP. And I'm pretty sure (open to correction, mind) that NI was wealthier per capita than ROI right up until the late 1960's.

This began to be reversed in the 70's/80's/90's, primarily due to three factors:
1. The decline of traditional manufacturing industries in the UK (and Western economies generally) hit NI esp hard;
2. The above coincided with The Troubles, which led to private investment, both GB and foreign, withdrawing almost completely;
3. ROI got a much greater economic boost from EEC entry per capita than NI/UK (basically farmers benefiting from the CAP).

And to take this thread back (vaguely) on track, I suspect that if you were to track the fortunes of club football in NI over the same period, you'd find a strong correlation with those economic and demographic trends.

[oldfan]

And before the thread gets back on track Dublin became the Capital of an Independent (very centralised) State which helped its growth no end.

[Mr_Parker]

Refreshingly honest - and applies to many (most?) (all?) fans.

But that's my point. While LOI clubs/fans could naturally be worried that IL clubs might drag standards down on the pitch in an AIL, IL fans/clubs should be worried that LOI clubs might drag the whole league down by their off-the-pitch activities.

For while the IL had to learn a hard lesson after a period when many clubs tried to "buy success" by gambling with money they didn't have, too many LOI clubs appear not to have heeded that lesson.

And while I personally am in favour of an AIL in principle, I would be very worried that it might crash and burn for financial reasons (clubs overspending and Lucid's promises of money unfulfilled), at which point we might not even have an IL to go back to.

Dundalk FC record losses of over €1.2 million for 2019

https://www.dundalkdemocrat.ie/news/sport/547558/dundalk-fc-record-losses-of-over-1-2-million-for-2019.html

[WeAreRovers]

https://belfastmedia.com/langhammer-its-time-for-an-all-ireland-league/

[Martinho II]

Very good piece on this. Hopefully NI based teams will change their minds!

[EatYerGreens]

https://belfastmedia.com/langhammer-its-time-for-an-all-ireland-league/

Punchy.

He's basically accusing the IFA of doing a lighter version of what the FAI has done to the LOI over the years.

[EatYerGreens]

Very good piece on this. Hopefully NI based teams will change their minds!

Largely they won't I fear. Because their decision will be about more than just football.

As a member-run club, I'm not even sure Crusaders would be in a position to support an AIL if it ever came to a vote on one.

I don't think the author of that piece (Mark Langhammer) is from Northern Ireland (anyone confirm?). Which may perhaps contribute to how he views things.

[Martinho II]

Largely they won't I fear. Because their decision will be about more than just football.

As a member-run club, I'm not even sure Crusaders would be in a position to support an AIL if it ever came to a vote on one.

I don't think the author of that piece (Mark Langhammer) is from Northern Ireland (anyone confirm?). Which may perhaps contribute to how he views things.

Yeah hes definitely not Southern based as I would have heard of the name by now as do be on twitter a lot so possibly he could be UK based?

[EalingGreen]

I don't think the author of that piece (Mark Langhammer) is from Northern Ireland (anyone confirm?). Which may perhaps contribute to how he views things.Although his family background was originally Central European, Mark himself is an Norn Iron as brown lemonade - born, brought up, educated and always lived there.

Although he's quite an individualist, never afraid to swim against the tide. For example, away from football, he's a Trade Unionist and Labour/Community activist, who wasn't afraid eg to stand up to the UDA in Rathcoole back in the day. Which is either very brave or very stupid, or both. (I think they put a bomb under his car one time?)

Anyhow, I quite admire him for being prepared to be an outsider, but having said that, he does get carried away, including with the sound of his own voice. Which is why he's not as widely popular as he might be.

Also sticks up for Crues come-what-may, which means his views shouldn't be taken as widely representative beyond the Shore Road.

Definitely a character though, who despite (I think) going to rugby schools, is a proper football man.

[Mr A]

When helping conduct a strategic review with Harps over a decade ago we spoke to various clubs on both sides of the border about how they did things and Mark was incredibly helpful, as where people involved in Cliftonville and Dungannon in fairness, generous with his time and experience and so willing to help out.

[EatYerGreens]

And before the thread gets back on track Dublin became the Capital of an Independent (very centralised) State which helped its growth no end.

But Cork is de real capital, boi !

[Mr A]

But Cork is de real capital, boi !

Has anyone, anytime, ever produced even a moderately cromulent reason for this bizarro claim?

[Eminence Grise]

I'd guess the answer might be here (https://emedicine.medscape.com/article/292991-overview). DSM-5 Cork has a ring to it if a new club name was ever needed.

[oldfan]

Has anyone, anytime, ever produced even a moderately cromulent reason for this bizarro claim?
The Corkie with an inferiority complex - thinks he's only as good as everyone else.

[DCWA]

In a bizarre turn of events the UVF will be competing in the 20/21 NIFL Premiership

https://www.otbsports.com/sport/new-linfield-away-jersey-shares-uvf-flag-colour-scheme-1029026

[Eminence Grise]

Bizarre is... one word to use alright.

[EalingGreen]

In a bizarre turn of events the UVF will be competing in the 20/21 NIFL Premiership

https://www.otbsports.com/sport/new-linfield-away-jersey-shares-uvf-flag-colour-scheme-1029026
This is no comment on the suitability or otherwise of this new kit (though I have the sick bag handy just in case!), but there is rather an important mistake in the text of that article:
"The purple and orange flag of the UVF was first displayed - according to React - "on the U.V.F. review parade held at Balmoral, Belfast in 1912".

The UVF officially ended its campaign of violence in 2007, but during the Troubles they were responsible for more than 500 deaths."

The original Ulster Volunteers formed up under Edward Carson in 1912 to oppose Home Rule. Around the same time, the Irish Volunteers were formed under John Redmond to support it.

However, when WWI broke out, the campaigning around HR was put on hold until the War was settled. Meanwhile, many members of the Ulster Volunteers joined the British Army as part of the 36th (Ulster) Division to fight the Germans in Flanders etc, while members of Redmond's Volunteers joined the 16th (Irish) Division, the two at one stage fighting side-by-side, and with great distinction.

Anyhow, you probably know what happened subsequently (Easter Rising, War of Independence, Partition etc), the point being that at the end of this period, the Ulster Volunteers basically disbanded.

Which was all fine and dandy until a bunch of scum led by Gusty Spence and his cronies got together in 1966 to form a paramilitary gang and chose the name "UVF". As such, they had no connection with the originals and no right to the name.

Therefore that report was quite wrong to segue seamlessly from 1912 to 2007, as though it was all one unbroken line. It wasn't.

All that said, it was still pretty crass - if typical - of Linfield to adopt that particular colour scheme, 1912 or no.

Something like this is far more dignified:
https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/somme-memorial-western-front-linfield-fc-fallen-1334807#gsc.tab=0

[DCWA]

This is no comment on the suitability or otherwise of this new kit (though I have the sick bag handy just in case!), but there is rather an important mistake in the text of that article:
"The purple and orange flag of the UVF was first displayed - according to React - "on the U.V.F. review parade held at Balmoral, Belfast in 1912".

The UVF officially ended its campaign of violence in 2007, but during the Troubles they were responsible for more than 500 deaths."

The original Ulster Volunteers formed up under Edward Carson in 1912 to oppose Home Rule. Around the same time, the Irish Volunteers were formed under John Redmond to support it.

However, when WWI broke out, the campaigning around HR was put on hold until the War was settled. Meanwhile, many members of the Ulster Volunteers joined the British Army as part of the 36th (Ulster) Division to fight the Germans in Flanders etc, while members of Redmond's Volunteers joined the 16th (Irish) Division, the two at one stage fighting side-by-side, and with great distinction.

Anyhow, you probably know what happened subsequently (Easter Rising, War of Independence, Partition etc), the point being that at the end of this period, the Ulster Volunteers basically disbanded.

Which was all fine and dandy until a bunch of scum led by Gusty Spence and his cronies got together in 1966 to form a paramilitary gang and chose the name "UVF". As such, they had no connection with the originals and no right to the name.

Therefore that report was quite wrong to segue seamlessly from 1912 to 2007, as though it was all one unbroken line. It wasn't.

All that said, it was still pretty crass - if typical - of Linfield to adopt that particular colour scheme, 1912 or no.

Something like this is far more dignified:
https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/somme-memorial-western-front-linfield-fc-fallen-1334807#gsc.tab=0

I think the biggest club in the NIFL deliberately modelling their kit on the colours of a sectarian murder gang probably extends beyond crass. I won’t even honour your explanation of the UVF’s history with a response.

It will no doubt sell very well, gotta give them that I suppose.

[DCSIL]

With the 12th of July a month away, perfect timing.

[Martinho II]

There hasnt being much comment here on Wexfords attempt of an awful new jersey on Che Guevera. I think its shocking and disgraceful to have a picture of Guevera to be sneakily put on it. It took me guts of a day to see his image. Hope FAI clamp down hard. Dont mind Bohs one but Guevera takes the biscuit altogether.

[EalingGreen]

I think the biggest club in the NIFL deliberately modelling their kit on the colours of a sectarian murder gang probably extends beyond crass. .
OK, substitute "crass" with "disgusting" or "disgraceful" if you like - you'll get no objection to that from me.


I won’t even honour your explanation of the UVF’s history with a response.

How was it incorrect or misleading?

[DCWA]

.

How was it incorrect or misleading?

I didn’t say it was.

Do we have a pic of Wexford’s Che jersey ?