All-Ireland League Thread

[EatYerGreens]

Yeah the plan is for 10 Dutch and 8 Belgian teams to form an 18 team league; that's where the commercial projections came from. From this ratio I'd imagine the Belgian league currently is worth less than Dutch.

Will be interesting to see how it progresses in any case.

Considering that the Netherlands has a population almost 50% larger than Belgium's (17m vs 11.5m), the Belgians should be bloody delighted with that split.

The huge population difference would be reason enough on its own for the Dutch league to have higher commercial value. It helps as well that it's all in one language too (i.e. less complicated to televise).

[Eminence Grise]

One language? That'll be news in Wallonia. Dutch/Flemish might be the majority language, but there's a sizeable French-speaking contingent (4-5m?) to cater to that tends to be outspoken on matters concening identity and politics that doesn't feel quite in step with the rest of the country. Worth bearing in mind that an All-Ireland league might have to broadcast in English, Irish and Ulster Scots to satisfy similar local sensibilities.:cool:

[pineapple stu]

Let's ignore too that 10% (or whatever it is) of Holland is Moroccan

[Real ale Madrid]

One language? That'll be news in Wallonia. Dutch/Flemish might be the majority language, but there's a sizeable French-speaking contingent (4-5m?) to cater to that tends to be outspoken on matters concening identity and politics that doesn't feel quite in step with the rest of the country. Worth bearing in mind that an All-Ireland league might have to broadcast in English, Irish and Ulster Scots to satisfy similar local sensibilities.:cool:

I quite like the idea of forcing Linfield fans to tune into TG4.


Let's ignore too that 10% (or whatever it is) of Holland is Moroccan

Wha?

[sadloserkid]

Let's ignore too that 10% (or whatever it is) of Holland is Moroccan

2.35% according to the ever reliable Wikipedia.

[pineapple stu]

Fairy nuff.

The point was though that you can't really call anywhere monolingual these days.

[EatYerGreens]

One language? That'll be news in Wallonia. Dutch/Flemish might be the majority language, but there's a sizeable French-speaking contingent (4-5m?) to cater to that tends to be outspoken on matters concening identity and politics that doesn't feel quite in step with the rest of the country. Worth bearing in mind that an All-Ireland league might have to broadcast in English, Irish and Ulster Scots to satisfy similar local sensibilities.:cool:

Read what I wrote again. I was talking about the Dutch League. Which IS all in one language (we'll ignore Frescia for the moment).

[EatYerGreens]

Let's ignore too that 10% (or whatever it is) of Holland is Moroccan

That's just a weird point to make - unless you're claiming that none of them can speak Dutch and it commercially devalues the Dutch league as a result.

12% of the population of Ireland was born elsewhere. That doesn't mean they all can't navigate through life in English.

Has Gemma O'Doherty stolen your keyboard ? :p

[EatYerGreens]

2.35% according to the ever reliable Wikipedia.

Don't be upsetting Gemma now :cool:

[pineapple stu]

That's just a weird point to make - unless you're claiming that none of them can speak Dutch and it commercially devalues the Dutch league as a result.

12% of the population of Ireland was born elsewhere. That doesn't mean they all can't navigate through life in English.

Has Gemma O'Doherty stolen your keyboard ? :p
Not really. Your point was that it (whatever "it" is) was "all in the one language". I (and Eminence Grise) just wanted to counter that lazy assertion.

Wiki says that 25% of Holland isn't Dutch - ok, a lot of them are going to be Belgian/German/Luxembourgish, but still, a lot of them would not have Dutch as their first language. It'd arguably be more noticeable there than here because Dutch is such a relatively obscure language compared to English. I would say there's a sizeable portion with Arabic as their first language for example.

[Eminence Grise]

Read what I wrote again. I was talking about the Dutch League. Which IS all in one language (we'll ignore Frescia for the moment).

I see that meaning now. Wasn't the clearest post, tbh

[Buller]

Considering that the Netherlands has a population almost 50% larger than Belgium's (17m vs 11.5m), the Belgians should be bloody delighted with that split.

The huge population difference would be reason enough on its own for the Dutch league to have higher commercial value. It helps as well that it's all in one language too (i.e. less complicated to televise).

Ah yes, didn't think there was such a large population difference. Yeah they'll be delighted with that split.

[EatYerGreens]

Not really. Your point was that it (whatever "it" is) was "all in the one language". I (and Eminence Grise) just wanted to counter that lazy assertion.

Wiki says that 25% of Holland isn't Dutch - ok, a lot of them are going to be Belgian/German/Luxembourgish, but still, a lot of them would not have Dutch as their first language. It'd arguably be more noticeable there than here because Dutch is such a relatively obscure language compared to English. I would say there's a sizeable portion with Arabic as their first language for example.

This is starting to feel like someone pedantically trying to pick an argument. So let me clarify to hopefully save everyone that pain.

The Dutch League is broadcast within the Netherlands in Dutch (again - let's agree to ignore SC Heerenveen and the minority Frisian language, least you try to have a row over that too :D) . The linguistic uniformity of Dutch broadcasting therefore makes it easier and cheaper to broadcast than the Belgian League, which involves two very separate large languages (meaning different commentary and commentators for games etc). And by splitting the audience for the Belgian League into 2 different large linguistic groups, not only is it more complex/expensive to broadcast, but it's commercial value is also reduced. As it's more expensive to advertise to, and you have to duplicate resources in 2 different languages. And that's all in addition to the more significant issue that Belgium just has a much smaller population than the Netherlands.

Happy now ? :D

P.S. The number of people who speak Moroccan in the Netherlands is utterly irrelevant to any of this btw. Doubly so as Moroccans are ironically a bigger portion of Belgium's population than they are in Holland. But hey - pedants gonna ped...

[pineapple stu]

Well this is what happens when your original posts are as clear as your pyramid structure unfortunately...

[Mr A]

Oh man, having the AIL covered in Ulster Scots is going to be a nightmare.

Or to put it more accurately, och no, haven the AIL happed in Ulster Scoots will be a puure nightmare

[EatYerGreens]

Well this is what happens when your original posts are as clear as your pyramid structure unfortunately...

Pedants gonna ped :cool:

[EatYerGreens]

Oh man, having the AIL covered in Ulster Scots is going to be a nightmare.

No-one actually speaks Ulster Scots though. It's those dastardly Moroccans you need watch out for.

[Source]

Oh man, having the AIL covered in Ulster Scots is going to be a nightmare.

I can hear Stuart Byrne saying "he jundied him aff the bal" and "Stannin there like a mutton-dummy" . Real phases ;)

[punkrocket]

And if that all wasn't enough, there's quite a variety of languages spoken in Morocco. A few variations of arabic, french. and several berber languages as well as spanish in the north.

[EatYerGreens]

And if that all wasn't enough, there's quite a variety of languages spoken in Morocco. A few variations of arabic, french. and several berber languages as well as spanish in the north.

Very true. All of which are busy broadcasting the Eredivisie no doubt :D

(To be fair - the Spanish enclaves in North Africa are not actually Morocco. They're legally bits of Spain that just happen to be beside Morocco).

[pineapple stu]

Actually, the Dutch league is broadcast in Arabic in Morocco.

Which, now that you've clarified your initial point, means it's still somewhat undermined. The Dutch and Belgian leagues both have global TV deals, so there being two broadcasting languages in Belgium and only one in Holland isn't necessarily that big a deal in the global scale of things.

Also, on a more general level and because I don't think this has been mentioned as yet, but the BeNe league doesn't have a TV deal worth €400m. It doesn't have any TV deal. It has a report from Deloitte* saying that a joint TV deal "could" be worth in the region of €250m to €400m. You would have to imagine that the upper boundary of that would be dependent on maximising international rights. Of course, outside of Declan Conroy's fantasy world, the LoI doesn't have to worry about international rights.

* - The cynic in me would also note that Deloitte also said the FAI's finances were fine, so I'll believe those figures when/if I see them.

[EatYerGreens]

Actually, the Dutch league is broadcast in Arabic in Morocco.

Which, now that you've clarified your initial point, means it's still somewhat undermined. The Dutch and Belgian leagues both have global TV deals, so there being two broadcasting languages in Belgium and only one in Holland isn't necessarily that big a deal in the global scale of things.

Also, on a more general level and because I don't think this has been mentioned as yet, but the BeNe league doesn't have a TV deal worth €400m. It doesn't have any TV deal. It has a report from Deloitte* saying that a joint TV deal "could" be worth in the region of €250m to €400m. You would have to imagine that the upper boundary of that would be dependent on maximising international rights. Of course, outside of Declan Conroy's fantasy world, the LoI doesn't have to worry about international rights.

* - The cynic in me would also note that Deloitte also said the FAI's finances were fine, so I'll believe those figures when/if I see them.

Well there is no BeNe league at the moment - just an aspiration in some quarters to have one. So no great surprise really that it doesn't have concrete commercial arrangements yet

The fact that you keep digging the hole on that Moroccan thing is hilarious :D

[pineapple stu]

Well there is no BeNe league at the moment - just an aspiration in some quarters to have one. So no great surprise really that it doesn't have concrete commercial arrangements yet
True, but given the figure was quoted, more than once, by Buller on this thread (https://foot.ie/threads/250083-All-Ireland-League-Thread?p=2037408&highlight=400m#post2037408) - one of the posters most in favour of this - then it's relevant to point out that it is complete pie in the sky at present. So a post like -


So together currently generate €160m between them at the moment, and joining together would push that to €400m. Joining two markets pushes value up disproportionately higher than you would expect.
- is immediately undermined, and that's worth pointing out.


The fact that you keep digging the hole on that Moroccan thing is hilarious :D
Not really - just countering your point about one broadcasting language in Holland affecting the TV rights deal. If you have an argument to make against my suggestion that the number of domestic languages isn't really relevant in the context of a global TV deal, fire ahead.

[EatYerGreens]

Not really - just countering your point about one broadcasting language in Holland affecting the TV rights deal. If you have an argument to make against my suggestion that the number of domestic languages isn't really relevant in the context of a global TV deal, fire ahead.

And still you keep digging ! ;)

Look - it's very simple. Having a league which has to be broadcast domestically in two languages will obviously increase broadcast costs/complexity and make it intrinsically less appealing for advertising. Because you split the potential viewing audience into two, so any commercial entity wishing to target them then has to double their activity/spend to reach the total audience across the two languages. The overseas broadcast stuff is irrelevant in that, as it will always be broadcast overseas in the target language anyway. That has no influence or bearing at all upon the reality of having to broadcast domestically in two different languages across different channels, and the implications that has cost-wise and commercially.

For the love go God, let it go man....

[sbgawa]

At the risk of coming between a rock and a hard place, the languages is in all likelihood a non issue.
I remember watching Grahame Burke at Preston when you could watch whatever Championship game you wanted via the "red Button" on whatever channel was showing it (i think it was BT) by picking your match after pressing the red button from the alternatives offered, the half time adverts were all the same.
You would have the cost of an extra commentator studio based i guess.

[pineapple stu]

At the risk of coming between a rock and a hard place, the languages is in all likelihood a non issue.
I remember watching Grahame Burke at Preston when you could watch whatever Championship game you wanted via the "red Button" on whatever channel was showing it (i think it was BT) by picking your match after pressing the red button from the alternatives offered, the half time adverts were all the same.
You would have the cost of an extra commentator studio based i guess.
Exactly. And the cost of an extra commentator is tiny in the context of the overall package.

EYG is still ignoring the global nature of TV deals these days, which come in all sorts of languages and overseas broadcast is certainly not "irrelevant" as overseas is a growing market and in fact for the Premier League (https://www.sportspromedia.com/news/premier-league-tv-rights-value-domestic-international), overseas is worth almost the same as domestic now. So Belgium having two broadcast languages is tiny in that context, even before you factor in that the broadcast just slots in around ads, etc.

[WeAreRovers]

Broadcaster staffer here, multi-lingual coverage is essentially a non-issue. Carry on...

[Bucket]

But replays are an issue?

[EatYerGreens]

At the risk of coming between a rock and a hard place, the languages is in all likelihood a non issue.
I remember watching Grahame Burke at Preston when you could watch whatever Championship game you wanted via the "red Button" on whatever channel was showing it (i think it was BT) by picking your match after pressing the red button from the alternatives offered, the half time adverts were all the same.
You would have the cost of an extra commentator studio based i guess.

That suggests that the same channels in Belgium broadcast in different languages at the same time. They don't. You have Wallonian language channels and Vlaams language channels (plus German for the east, but we'll ignore that). There isn't just one channel doing both simultaneously. There is no unified national TV broadcaster in Belgium. There aren't even unified broadcasting, media or advertising laws - as they're decided on a regional basis too. Different people watch different 'regional' channels on the basis of the language they use. And not every channel in Belgium is accessible in every part of Belgium either.

It's not like the Irish model where RTE is available in English everywhere, and chucks in the occasional show 'as Gaeilge'.

[EatYerGreens]

Broadcaster staffer here, multi-lingual coverage is essentially a non-issue. Carry on...

Someone who lived in Belgium here (Mechelen). It is in a country where there is no single channel covering the whole place, and instead there are completely separate channels covering each language in each linguistic region.

Belgium makes Northern Ireland look like a model of social/community integration ;)

[nigel-harps1954]

Ireland and Belgium are very different.

[Kiki Balboa]

Someone who lived in Belgium here (Mechelen). It is in a country where there is no single channel covering the whole place, and instead there are completely separate channels covering each language in each linguistic region.

Belgium makes Northern Ireland look like a model of social/community integration ;)

Eh... a bit far , all hings considered....

[Mr_Parker]

Actually you're right, but so what if it is?

It has no relevance to any proposed AIL.

Meanwhile, as far as IL competitiveness goes, Linfield, Crues and Glens already are (or are about to go) f-t. All three have big plans for the future.

And Larne's benefactor has big ambitions (and big money!) to do the same for them - f-t contracts, stadium, European aspirations etc. So that if they can make the same progress over the next 3 or 4 years we've seen over the last 3, then you couldn't discount them.

While Coleraine are very well managed, and Portadown have potential (though they've ****ed it up the wall for a decade or more).

And all the above would surely prompt Cliftonville to try to keep up - Mr.P, any comment?

My guess is that if an AIL doesn't actually materialise for another 3(?) years, and the IL continues in the interim to grow as it has recently, I'd suggest that it could contribute 4, 5 or even 6 clubs who would all be competitive in the company of their LOI counterparts. For if an AIL produced the revenues which its backers are projecting, then being generally well-managed clubs, they all have the potential to grow to be bigger fish in a bigger pond.

Of all you have said, only Linfield have the potential to be a truly full time club. While others have been playing with the concept, none of them are close to what is a full time set up. Indeed I am aware of frustration and doubt within those same clubs, that fulltime football is something that will work in the short to medium term for them. There are a few egos that are driving their push to fulltime, while others in their clubs see the realities. It's the same egos that want to see an AIL so that they can play football manager on a larger scale. If they try to follow the same paths as some LOI clubs, then it will end in tears imo.

As for Cliftonville, and indeed the rest of the clubs, of course they will want to "keep up" with their competitors, but I doubt they will risk their existence just to do so.

[EatYerGreens]

Eh... a bit far , all hings considered....

It really isn't. Belgium basically isn't a single country. It's two countries that just about manage to remain together, with a King and a football team being pretty much the only thing that unifies them. Although even within that the football team inevitably has to take 'sides', as it has to be managed, play etc in one or other language. Same with fans singing.

People don't seem to realise how divided Belgium is. At least NI has a single language that everyone uses, media they all share etc. Just because Belgians don't riot occasionally doesn't make it a more coherent society. Belgium went almost 2 years without a government recently as the two sides couldn't agree on one. And unlike in NI with its recent Assembly down-time, there is no fall back solution when an entire country doesn't have someone to run it. But hey - the big issue there is apparently that a few people are Moroccan....

[pineapple stu]

But hey - the big issue there is apparently that a few people are Moroccan....
Which of course has nothing at all to do with what I was saying.

But you keep telling us how you know more about TV deals than someone who actually works in TV. It would go well alongside your pyramid system that didn't actually have a pyramid system.

[EatYerGreens]

Which of course has nothing at all to do with what I was saying.

But you keep telling us how you know more about TV deals than someone who actually works in TV. It would go well alongside your pyramid system that didn't actually have a pyramid system.

And you keep claiming you know more about Belgium than someone who actually lived there ! :D Which is doubly funny when you have a weird obsession with Moroccans (some 'interesting' holiday experiences to share with the class ?), yet still managed to over-inflate the number in Belgium by a factor of 4.

For the love of God - move on before you make this any worse !

[sadloserkid]

For the love of God - move on before you make this any worse !

He might be able to if you stopped bringing it up.

[pineapple stu]

And you keep claiming you know more about Belgium than someone who actually lived there !
"Living in Belgium" isn't really a point in defence of your claim that having to broadcast in two languages devalues the value of its league's TV rights.

My point that global TV rights are sold in lots of languages so what's one more, and WaR's point that languages don't really impact broadcasting anyway, do counter your point.

And that, so far as I can see, is where the matter sits at the moment.

[EatYerGreens]

"living in belgium" isn't really a point in defence of your claim that having to broadcast in two languages devalues the value of its league's tv rights.

My point that global tv rights are sold in lots of languages so what's one more, and war's point that languages don't really impact broadcasting anyway, do counter your point.

And that, so far as i can see, is where the matter sits at the moment.

MOD EDIT : Stop. Please.

[Real ale Madrid]

Back on topic please lads. It would be great if an AIL had an international broadcast deal but flogging a dead horse with this one.

[EalingGreen]

Of all you have said, only Linfield have the potential to be a truly full time club. While others have been playing with the concept, none of them are close to what is a full time set up. Indeed I am aware of frustration and doubt within those same clubs, that fulltime football is something that will work in the short to medium term for them. There are a few egos that are driving their push to fulltime, while others in their clubs see the realities. It's the same egos that want to see an AIL so that they can play football manager on a larger scale. If they try to follow the same paths as some LOI clubs, then it will end in tears imo.

As for Cliftonville, and indeed the rest of the clubs, of course they will want to "keep up" with their competitors, but I doubt they will risk their existence just to do so.
Fair enough.

What I might have said was that 4 or 5 IL clubs have the potential to match the top 7 or 8 LOI clubs' version of "Full-time" football. (Included in that calculation is that the IFA doesn't lose its current European slots.)

Beyond that, it would require any AIL to generate the increased revenues which would allow clubs to offer proper 52 week contracts of 2 or 3 years to players, some of whom might have genuine sell-on potential to GB/Europe, rather than these one year contracts of 42 weeks which I believe currently operate at some LOI clubs. (Open to correction on that last bit)

As for "ego's" driving some of this, I'm sure you're right. But so long as it's not overdone (i.e. clubs offering ridiculous wages they can never possibly afford), then maybe this egotism might not be such a bad thing, when compared with the lack of vision and ambition which currently holds back some clubs at least?

[Nesta99]

This was a good old laugh, initially looked like a poorly coach bunch of U12s and then a cracker of an own goal. At least the old Lee Dixon back pass that lobbed Seaman had some style!

https://www.bbc.com/sport/av/football/56705838

[Kiki Balboa]

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/sport/northern-irish-clubs-to-retain-european-spots-as-10m-all-ireland-league-to-adopt-split-season-format-40326312.html?fbclid=IwAR0cLq83LREIfsfHGjCFcCg29o0 hvDvgvdf3gX1EVIsWR3VPWlWYige0oH8

This seems to have gone under the radar because of other football news. Its behind a paywall, but the first 2 paragraphs suggest all barriers are removed for it to happen.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Super League! Might want to re-brand that quick.

[pineapple stu]

Sunday Life Sport has been told by informed sources that on offer for such a cross-border competition is up to £10m of funding, underwritten by UEFA through their centralised policy of negotiating television rights.
That paragraph stood out for me. UEFA don't go around underwriting league funding do they? £10m is a significant amount and way more than, say, UEFA solidarity income for the two leagues (which clubs get anyway).

I think the league format is maybe the best way of testing the water while still allowing an easy unravelling if numbers do turn out to be pie-in-the-sky. Which is what £10m sounds to me.

[EatYerGreens]

That paragraph stood out for me. UEFA don't go around underwriting league funding do they? £10m is a significant amount and way more than, say, UEFA solidarity income for the two leagues (which clubs get anyway).

I think the league format is maybe the best way of testing the water while still allowing an easy unravelling if numbers do turn out to be pie-in-the-sky. Which is what £10m sounds to me.

They've certainly got the cash to do so. They could dress it up as being a peace and harmony thing. And given that they're now supporters of smaller leagues combing together, it would help them get one up and running to act as an example for others to potentially follow suit. All for what is a relatively small sum of money for UEFA. So I could see the rationale for them being up for it.

[pineapple stu]

Just because they have the cash to do it doesn't mean they'd go about setting a precedent to go throwing cash around every time a league wants to merge though.

I don't see any particular reason they'd actively be interested in it, tbh

[Kiki Balboa]

Maybe they just see it as a way for smaller and medium level leagues to get more competitive, and generate more revenue.

Rumors were around the place that UEFA was set to announce support for merging of leagues on Monday, 19th. But obviously, other stuff took precedent.

If it goes ahead, it really would be the best (and possibly only) opportunity to implement a full integrated league system within Ireland.

[A N Mouse]

Just because they have the cash to do it doesn't mean they'd go about setting a precedent to go throwing cash around every time a league wants to merge though.

I don't see any particular reason they'd actively be interested in it, tbh

Well the revamped CL/EL/ECL 2024 format sounds interesting, almost like a half-way house to an actual continental league. Would explain why the big boys are throwing the toys out, and trying to shut up shop, or it could just be a pavlovian response to change.

There would be 12 more places, across the three competitions. Though doesn't sound like qualification would be any easier.

If they're looking to run a continental league with more than 100 clubs then it's in uefa's interest that there some semblance of competitiveness, and an element of unpredictability. Merging leagues, and raising standards, would be one way of doing that. Who knows, long term this could become a pyramid structure to the continental league.

And an all Island league here would be an 'easy win' for them, for what in the grand scheme of things is crumbs from the table

[EatYerGreens]

Maybe they just see it as a way for smaller and medium level leagues to get more competitive, and generate more revenue.

Rumors were around the place that UEFA was set to announce support for merging of leagues on Monday, 19th. But obviously, other stuff took precedent.

If it goes ahead, it really would be the best (and possibly only) opportunity to implement a full integrated league system within Ireland.

Political unification is starting to look like a question of when, not if. So it just remains to be seen if football is ahead or behind that eventuality. But it will happen at some stage for both football and politics.