All-Ireland League Thread

[EatYerGreens]

Does anybody know any place to read the Norn Irish perspective on the All Ireland league? From reading about it , I thought the football fans in the North would welcome it, but plenty of the hanger on's (the lads who support Rangers over Irish football and were rioting last night) would be hard against it..... but I have no clue really.

Never underestimate the pathological desire of those in the north from a particular background to reject anything to do with the south. And to be happy to be left sitting in a pile of dung, just so long as it's their wee pile of dung (with a flag on top).

There are also many in the north who seem to think that the Irish League is as good if not better than the LOI and that it's going through some sort of major growth period at the moment. There is a lot of arrogance and dismissiveness shown towards the LOI up there (despite the results of the Setanta Cup, Unite the Union Cup, European football etc).

[pineapple stu]

In fairness, there's a lot of arrogance and dismissiveness towards the IL from the LoI side too.

We're the ones with a bankrupt FAI, no pyramid system, top clubs continually going bankrupt, junior and underage and senior clubs barely talking to each other. We're the ones having random businessmen pulling figures out of their arses and then criticising the IL for not seeing what's best for them and jumping on board.

I think that side of things is worth keeping in mind too

[EatYerGreens]

In fairness, there's a lot of arrogance and dismissiveness towards the IL from the LoI side too.

We're the ones with a bankrupt FAI, no pyramid system, top clubs continually going bankrupt, junior and underage and senior clubs barely talking to each other. We're the ones having random businessmen pulling figures out of their arses and then criticising the IL for not seeing what's best for them and jumping on board.

I think that side of things is worth keeping in mind too

Absolutely. Though I don't see the same attitude in the south towards the IL as there is in the north towards us. Which when you factor in results between the 2 leagues is genuinely baffling.

[pineapple stu]

I think the same attitude is there; we can be very dismissive of the IL here. Your own post was a minor example of it for example, describing the league as a "wee pile of dung". The reasons for the attitude may ultimately be more sectarian up the North, but the end attitude is fairly similar nonetheless.

The LoI is a stronger league overall than the IL, but I'm not sure why you're solely focussing on that. There's more to a league than its strength, otherwise none of us would follow the LoI.

[Nesta99]

If the findings of the report were anything to go by he'd probably have gotten change back on a tenner.

We dont know as finances were secret until everyone signed up!

[Nesta99]

Never underestimate the pathological desire of those in the north from a particular background to reject anything to do with the south. And to be happy to be left sitting in a pile of dung, just so long as it's their wee pile of dung (with a fleg on top).

There are also many in the north who seem to think that the Irish League is as good if not better than the LOI and that it's going through some sort of major growth period at the moment. There is a lot of arrogance and dismissiveness shown towards the LOI up there (despite the results of the Setanta Cup, Unite the Union Cup, European football etc).

Apart from the subtle change to yer post I thought you were being ironic EYG as as far as I can recall the standard of IL was looked down upon from LoI circles with plenty of scoffing at a lack of professionalism with players and managers on holidays during European games and grounds rented out clashing with home legs. Progress on ground developments was generally acknowledged too though.

[EatYerGreens]

I think the same attitude is there; we can be very dismissive of the IL here. Your own post was a minor example of it for example, describing the league as a "wee pile of dung". The reasons for the attitude may ultimately be more sectarian up the North, but the end attitude is fairly similar nonetheless.

The LoI is a stronger league overall than the IL, but I'm not sure why you're solely focussing on that. There's more to a league than its strength, otherwise none of us would follow the LoI.

Only I didn't describe the Irish league as a wee pile of dung :rolleyes:

I said that there was an isolationist mentality in some quarters of the north which would be happy to sit in a pile of turds so long as it was their own wee pile with a flag in it. That's an observation about life up there, not just football.

[EatYerGreens]

Apart from the subtle change to yer post I thought you were being ironic EYG as as far as I can recall the standard of IL was looked down upon from LoI circles with plenty of scoffing at a lack of professionalism with players and managers on holidays during European games and grounds rented out clashing with home legs. Progress on ground developments was generally acknowledged too though.

But the results - in Europe, Setanta and Unite the Union Cup - generally bear out the view that the LOI is stronger than the IL. That's therefore just a statement of fact. Yet plenty in the north still look down their nose at us.

[pineapple stu]

But so what if the results are better? Are results the be all and end all? We look down on the Premier League to an extend and I don't fancy many LoI teams' chances against Sheffield United or Burnley.

[wonder88]

Would the Irish League not have a much more 'mixing of both sides' on the playing/participation side than the other main (non GAA) sports like Rugby, Hockey and Cricket. I know it is a class thing but I always find it interesting that this is often overlooked when there is talk of integration in education for example being something that should be done. RTE recently had a rugby player on their programme on a United Ireland putting forward the Unionist case.
Anyone with good knowledge of the Irish League be able to give an estimate of the percentage of Nationalists players there?
Also on average how many players from the south who cross the boarder to play each year?

[Mr_Parker]

The debate about which league is stronger, based on looking only on results between teams or European progress is something that may give give comfort to some, but for clubs and leagues and those that run them, the real strength measurement is having sustainable clubs and a league that does not regularly see clubs lurch from one crisis to the next or go bust.

[Charlie Darwin]

Would the Irish League not have a much more 'mixing of both sides' on the playing/participation side than the other main (non GAA) sports like Rugby, Hockey and Cricket. I know it is a class thing but I always find it interesting that this is often overlooked when there is talk of integration in education for example being something that should be done. RTE recently had a rugby player on their programme on a United Ireland putting forward the Unionist case.
Anyone with good knowledge of the Irish League be able to give an estimate of the percentage of Nationalists players there?
Also on average how many players from the south who cross the boarder to play each year?
All teams are mixed - most teams would have players from the Republic as well.

They're all non-sectarian and some, like Glentoran, are actively anti-sectarian.

[Mr_Parker]

They're all non-sectarian and some, like Glentoran, are actively anti-sectarian.

What on earth are you on about?

[redarmyfaction]

Is it all the years and all the recreational living but I seem to remember a Glentoran banner at an Irish Cup final V Linfield, way, way, way back in the day with 'Glentoran Play Football not Religion' on it

[Bucket]

Don't they have a big sign saying "Jesus loves you" or something in the Oval? Sounds religious to me!

[Charlie Darwin]

What on earth are you on about?
The club are. The fans are another matter.

[mcgonigle]

But so what if the results are better? Are results the be all and end all? We look down on the Premier League to an extend and I don't fancy many LoI teams' chances against Sheffield United or Burnley.

Yes it's called a competitive sport. What else matters?

[Nesta99]

The debate about which league is stronger, based on looking only on results between teams or European progress is something that may give give comfort to some, but for clubs and leagues and those that run them, the real strength measurement is having sustainable clubs and a league that does not regularly see clubs lurch from one crisis to the next or go bust.

Well that backs up EYG's opinion to some extent - are you looking down your nose on LoI Mr P? You have a valid argument on this, but it is a results based game too. If we could put stars over crests for better run clubs IL trumps LoI, 2 runs to European group stages in the last number of years is much more fun!(as a Dundalk fan of course).

[Nesta99]

Is it all the years and all the recreational rioting but I seem to remember a Glentoran banner at an Irish Cup final V Linfield, way, way, way back in the day with 'Glentoran Play Football not Religion' on it

Be nice to add politics to such a banner, if sport and politics can truly be separated also.

[pineapple stu]

Yes it's called a competitive sport. What else matters?
So why don't we pack the whole thing in and all go watch Man City?

[Nesta99]

He did say competitive, not bought...:o

[Mr_Parker]

The club are. The fans are another matter.

Glentoran are no better, nor worse than any other NIFL clubs in the work they do to deal with sectarianism. All clubs work to address such issues. Why do you put them on a pedestal above other clubs?

[Mr_Parker]

Well that backs up EYG's opinion to some extent - are you looking down your nose on LoI Mr P? You have a valid argument on this, but it is a results based game too. If we could put stars over crests for better run clubs IL trumps LoI, 2 runs to European group stages in the last number of years is much more fun!(as a Dundalk fan of course).

Yes the game is results based, but not when the game may be unbalanced because one club is advantaged over another because a blind eye is turned,

[Charlie Darwin]

Glentoran are no better, nor worse than any other NIFL clubs in the work they do to deal with sectarianism. All clubs work to address such issues. Why do you put them on a pedestal above other clubs?
I didn't, I said they're one of the clubs but I'm most familiar with them so I used them as an example. Why are you so touchy?

[mcgonigle]

So why don't we pack the whole thing in and all go watch Man City?

We do watch Man City don't we? We can watch the premiership and go to the LOI, it's a mad concept. What criteria do you think we should decide football matches on? Our programme is better than Sheffield United but as you say I don't fancy our chances against them

[Mr_Parker]

I didn't, I said they're one of the clubs but I'm most familiar with them so I used them as an example. Why are you so touchy?

I'm not touchy, just find it strange that you even put some clubs above others in what they do.

[ToberonaTornado]

I'm not touchy, just find it strange that you even put some clubs above others in what they do.
You seem very defensive and combative Parker. And that's fair enough.At what stage for you is a AIL on? What's the bottom line for NIFL getting involved in an AIL?

[pineapple stu]

We do watch Man City don't we? We can watch the premiership and go to the LOI, it's a mad concept.
Why not just watch Man City and ignore the LoI though?

After all, it's a results game

[Kiki Balboa]

Cant help but feel its bad timing for such an anouncement from the Belfast Telegraph. Could have waited till things died down a little bit (when petrol bombs werent being thrown at police up north) or maybe that was their intention. I guess UEFA want to announce something positive along with the deeply unpopular new Champions league rules. Do think that new language will have to be used around the competition. For example, 'all-Ireland' might put off some up North.

The great thing about LOI is the comparative sizes of clubs. In the next 10 years, its not beyond the possibility of most teams being able to win the league. There was 5 league winners of the league between 2010 and 2020 (from 4 regions). An All-Ireland league adds another 4-6 clubs which are similar stature to LOI, who can all win the league. I think it will work better than something like the Belgian and Dutch league, where you can expect Ajax, PSV and Feyenoord to finish consistantly over Genk, Anderlecht and Liege.

[pineapple stu]

The great thing about LOI is the comparative sizes of clubs. In the next 10 years, its not beyond the possibility of most teams being able to win the league. There was 5 league winners of the league between 2010 and 2020 (from 4 regions). An All-Ireland league adds another 4-6 clubs which are similar stature to LOI, who can all win the league. I think it will work better than something like the Belgian and Dutch league, where you can expect Ajax, PSV and Feyenoord to finish consistantly over Genk, Anderlecht and Liege.
I don't think this analysis stands up to be honest.

In the past six seasons, Shamrock Rovers, Dundalk and Cork have not only won the title or the Cup each year, but have also been runners-up each year (except for Bohs breaking that last year by coming second in the league). That's an unprecedented dominance here.

Cork have since imploded due to mismanagement, and I think Dundalk are on the same road to be honest. Rovers appear to have a much more sustainable model with their academy, and I don't see who's coming through to challenge them at the moment given no-one's beaten them in the league since Sept 2019 (25 games now). Bohs are the obvious ones, but this year hasn't started well. Harps are battling relegation obviously, Sligo could be on the way up but can they launch a title challenge?

And what 4/6 IL clubs are going to challenge for a title? We know it's a weaker league (which isn't to say it's a lesser league) and I don't see any way Ballymena, Cliftonville or Larne (4th to 6th at the moment) could challenge for the title here.

I think a combined league would be more competitive in general - it couldn't not be - but I don't think it's true at all to say that most teams, including 4-6 from the IL, would have a chance of winning an AIL in the next ten years.

[Mr_Parker]

You seem very defensive and combative Parker. And that's fair enough.At what stage for you is a AIL on? What's the bottom line for NIFL getting involved in an AIL?

NIFL itself won't get involved as such discussions can on only be conducted by the IFA due to it being a cross associations issue. The IFA will only fully engage when several key questions are answered and protections are in place. E.g. Financial package, club licensing, European comps etc. Basically, is it viable and good for the IFA and it's member clubs. There are one or two people in the IFA who use such competition's, like the current cross border cup, as nothing more than a vanity project, especially when it comes to votes for FIFA positions.

Personally, I try to call reality, rather than being just defensive or combative.

[mcgonigle]

Why not just watch Man City and ignore the LoI though?

After all, it's a results game

Isn't that what most do anyway?

[Mr_Parker]

Cant help but feel its bad timing for such an anouncement from the Belfast Telegraph. Could have waited till things died down a little bit (when petrol bombs werent being thrown at police up north) or maybe that was their intention. I guess UEFA want to announce something positive along with the deeply unpopular new Champions league rules. Do think that new language will have to be used around the competition. For example, 'all-Ireland' might put off some up North.


There was no announcement. It was more like a speculative story, let alone one given any thought by or involvement of UEFA.

[Kiki Balboa]

I don't think this analysis stands up to be honest.

In the past six seasons, Shamrock Rovers, Dundalk and Cork have not only won the title or the Cup each year, but have also been runners-up each year (except for Bohs breaking that last year by coming second in the league). That's an unprecedented dominance here.

Cork have since imploded due to mismanagement, and I think Dundalk are on the same road to be honest. Rovers appear to have a much more sustainable model with their academy, and I don't see who's coming through to challenge them at the moment given no-one's beaten them in the league since Sept 2019 (25 games now). Bohs are the obvious ones, but this year hasn't started well. Harps are battling relegation obviously, Sligo could be on the way up but can they launch a title challenge?

And what 4/6 IL clubs are going to challenge for a title? We know it's a weaker league (which isn't to say it's a lesser league) and I don't see any way Ballymena, Cliftonville or Larne (4th to 6th at the moment) could challenge for the title here.

I think a combined league would be more competitive in general - it couldn't not be - but I don't think it's true at all to say that most teams, including 4-6 from the IL, would have a chance of winning an AIL in the next ten years.

People said the exact same thing when Rovers won the league in 2011 (.... the 'model club' argument again..). People said the same about Dundalk. LOI history shows no team stays long at the top. As you said, both Dundalk and Cork dominated for 5 years and now look at them. So many clubs in LOI are roughly the same size.

As for the NI clubs, if Ballymena and Cliftonville were playing Dundalk and Rovers instead of Warrenpoint and Carrick Rangers , it would definitly provide a lot more room for growth. Both teams both get 3000 to at least one game a year (which is high considering they dont challenge for the league). There is a gap between ROI and NI football, its espeically the case from 8th place downwards in the Norths premier, who are little more than mid-table first divison teams here.

[Nesta99]

Yes the game is results based, but not when the game may be unbalanced because one club is advantaged over another because a blind eye is turned,

Eg how you were bleating on about pro license requirements? Once again yes rules are rules but having a lesser qualified head coach doesnt offer an advantage/cause imbalance as were are seeing all too obviously currently at Oriel Park. I'd be interested to know what particular blind eye is being turned actually and where you see things unbalance?

[pineapple stu]

People said the exact same thing when Rovers won the league in 2011 (.... the 'model club' argument again..). People said the same about Dundalk. LOI history shows no team stays long at the top. As you said, both Dundalk and Cork dominated for 5 years and now look at them. So many clubs in LOI are roughly the same size.
I think the Rovers setup is different now. If they can bring decently-coached young players through and generate consistent income from that each year, then all they're doing is exactly what most successful smaller clubs on the continent are doing now anyway. They weren't doing that in 2011. It's why I think they could dominate for a while to come, especially while their closest rivals implode by virtue of poor short-term policies.


As for the NI clubs, if Ballymena and Cliftonville were playing Dundalk and Rovers instead of Warrenpoint and Carrick Rangers , it would definitly provide a lot more room for growth.
It would provide a small bit of extra room for growth, not a lot; we need to be realistic about the impact. But to the extent that 4-6 NI teams could challenge for the title in an AIL? No.


Isn't that what most do anyway?
I don't think you know what point you're trying to argue to be honest.

EYG made the point that "The results generally bear out the view that the LOI is stronger than the IL. That's therefore just a statement of fact. Yet plenty in the north still look down their nose at us." I'm saying that results aren't everything when it comes to following football. For you, as a Dundalk fan, to say "What else matters?" is openly hypocritical. You know full well that there's more to following football than results. It's why we're all here following it and talking about it.

[mcgonigle]

I don't think you know what point you're trying to argue to be honest.

EYG made the point that "The results generally bear out the view that the LOI is stronger than the IL. That's therefore just a statement of fact. Yet plenty in the north still look down their nose at us." I'm saying that results aren't everything when it comes to following football. For you, as a Dundalk fan, to say "What else matters?" is openly hypocritical. You know full well that there's more to following football than results. It's why we're all here following it and talking about it.

Same point, that results are predominantly what matters to everyone but a small minority like us on here. If they didn't all clubs would be supported proportionately based on their location and we'd have a well supported little league here.

It's pretty much how people pick their English club, predominantly Leeds, Man Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea, Man City because they were the most successful clubs at the time. It shouldn't be the way but it is

[Source]

According to responses to the article on Twitter, most Northern Irish fans would be against this idea https://twitter.com/SundayLifeSport/status/1378618342668402689

[EalingGreen]

According to responses to the article on Twitter, most Northern Irish fans would be against this idea https://twitter.com/SundayLifeSport/status/1378618342668402689
I wouldn't give too much weight - either way - to a few idiots on Twitter.

But the bit that really caught my eye was this:

"Clubs involved believe they can earn an eye-watering £400m from TV rights alone, a prospect that would be hard to reject out of hand."

What do you all reckon? Is that £1m a year for the next 400 years, or £2m a year for the next 200?

[Nesta99]

I presumed that the 400m was with the Dutch Belgian project!?

[EalingGreen]

I presumed that the 400m was with the Dutch Belgian project!?
Actually you're right, but so what if it is?

It has no relevance to any proposed AIL.

Meanwhile, as far as IL competitiveness goes, Linfield, Crues and Glens already are (or are about to go) f-t. All three have big plans for the future.

And Larne's benefactor has big ambitions (and big money!) to do the same for them - f-t contracts, stadium, European aspirations etc. So that if they can make the same progress over the next 3 or 4 years we've seen over the last 3, then you couldn't discount them.

While Coleraine are very well managed, and Portadown have potential (though they've ****ed it up the wall for a decade or more).

And all the above would surely prompt Cliftonville to try to keep up - Mr.P, any comment?

My guess is that if an AIL doesn't actually materialise for another 3(?) years, and the IL continues in the interim to grow as it has recently, I'd suggest that it could contribute 4, 5 or even 6 clubs who would all be competitive in the company of their LOI counterparts. For if an AIL produced the revenues which its backers are projecting, then being generally well-managed clubs, they all have the potential to grow to be bigger fish in a bigger pond.

[DCWA]

Actually you're right, but so what if it is?

It has no relevance to any proposed AIL.

Meanwhile, as far as IL competitiveness goes, Linfield, Crues and Glens already are (or are about to go) f-t. All three have big plans for the future.

do

Glens and Crues may be full time but some of their practices reek of 1990s part time stuff. That’s likely the fault of their respective managers.

How sustainable that set up is for either of those clubs is is also up for discussion (admittedly that can be said for most clubs on the island).

[Kiki Balboa]

Actually you're right, but so what if it is?

It has no relevance to any proposed AIL.

Meanwhile, as far as IL competitiveness goes, Linfield, Crues and Glens already are (or are about to go) f-t. All three have big plans for the future.

And Larne's benefactor has big ambitions (and big money!) to do the same for them - f-t contracts, stadium, European aspirations etc. So that if they can make the same progress over the next 3 or 4 years we've seen over the last 3, then you couldn't discount them.

While Coleraine are very well managed, and Portadown have potential (though they've ****ed it up the wall for a decade or more).

And all the above would surely prompt Cliftonville to try to keep up - Mr.P, any comment?

My guess is that if an AIL doesn't actually materialise for another 3(?) years, and the IL continues in the interim to grow as it has recently, I'd suggest that it could contribute 4, 5 or even 6 clubs who would all be competitive in the company of their LOI counterparts. For if an AIL produced the revenues which its backers are projecting, then being generally well-managed clubs, they all have the potential to grow to be bigger fish in a bigger pond.

I guess what they are getting at is there is a multiplier effect of when leagues join together.

And also, to be fair, LOI clubs are also improving. Attendences have been steadily growing (1), clubs look better run (esp the Dublin clubs and Sligo). Also, a LOI team has reached the Europa league group stages three times in the last decade. Anecdotally, I feel there is much more positivity and buzz about the league, from within and outside (Although some might disagree)....

Again, I would be excited for AIL. More depth to the league, great away games, higher ceiling for growth, similar football culture (as in *unpopular* league).

(1) https://www.extratime.com/articles/24005/from-the-archives---extratimeie-league-of-ireland-attendance-report-2019/#:~:text=467%2C283%20people%20attended%20315%20lea gue,increase%20of%2023%20on%202018.

[Charlie Darwin]

The great thing about LOI is the comparative sizes of clubs. In the next 10 years, its not beyond the possibility of most teams being able to win the league. There was 5 league winners of the league between 2010 and 2020 (from 4 regions). An All-Ireland league adds another 4-6 clubs which are similar stature to LOI, who can all win the league. I think it will work better than something like the Belgian and Dutch league, where you can expect Ajax, PSV and Feyenoord to finish consistantly over Genk, Anderlecht and Liege.
I wouldn't agree with you on the Dutch and Belgian leagues. Ajax aside, Belgian football has been as strong or stronger than the bulk of the Dutch league in the past four or five years. The Dutch clubs would probably benefit more from the increased money, though.

[EatYerGreens]

I wouldn't agree with you on the Dutch and Belgian leagues. Ajax aside, Belgian football has been as strong or stronger than the bulk of the Dutch league in the past four or five years. The Dutch clubs would probably benefit more from the increased money, though.

Clubs in both countries will benefit. The Belgian clubs wouldn't have voted for it and it wouldn't be being discussed otherwise.

[EalingGreen]

Glens and Crues may be full time but some of their practices reek of 1990s part time stuff. That’s likely the fault of their respective managers.
(Genuine question) How have those "1990's part time" practices manifested themselves?



How sustainable that set up is for either of those clubs is is also up for discussion (admittedly that can be said for most clubs on the island).
Over the last 20-odd years, Crues have clearly managed to move up a level from a minor Belfast side, to one which can take its place amongst bigger teams (on the playing field, at least).

And afaik they have very achievable plans to upgrade the stadium to help cement that standing.

As for the Glens, after a decade or more of mismanagement, they are showing clear signs of getting back their Big Two status, both on and off the pitch.

If (emphasise) they should manage to do that, they are quite capable of taking their place amongst the top half dozen clubs on the whole island.

Again.

(And yes, of course I'm biased, but I think I can produce the evidence to back it up)

[DCWA]

(Genuine question) How have those "1990's part time" practices manifested themselves?

)

Players training on their own, players meeting at opposition ground on day of away games, missing training during the week etc happens at both clubs.

McDermott at the Glens in particular. He is not a professional football manager.

[Charlie Darwin]

Clubs in both countries will benefit. The Belgian clubs wouldn't have voted for it and it wouldn't be being discussed otherwise.
They'll both benefit but as the bigger clubs the Dutch will get the bigger slice of the increase is what I mean.

[EatYerGreens]

They'll both benefit but as the bigger clubs the Dutch will get the bigger slice of the increase is what I mean.

That's not clear at all though. It depends what gets agreed.

As the Belgian league is smaller commercially, it will probably get the biggest proportional increase/benefit.

[Buller]

Yeah the plan is for 10 Dutch and 8 Belgian teams to form an 18 team league; that's where the commercial projections came from. From this ratio I'd imagine the Belgian league currently is worth less than Dutch.

Will be interesting to see how it progresses in any case.