Bray statement

[gufct]

I see its all solved now according to O'Connor . Just fill the ground for Cork Game and all is well again!!!!

[Seagull]

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/national-league/financial-crisis-at-bray-wanderers-resolved-for-now-1.3145368

[El-Pietro]

I see its all solved now according to O'Connor . Just fill the ground for Cork Game and all is well again!!!!

That game won't likely go ahead, not unless we concede 3 goals tonight. TNB had the same plan - 5k a game for 5 games and we were grand!

[EatYerGreens]

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/national-league/financial-crisis-at-bray-wanderers-resolved-for-now-1.3145368

I wonder if the FAI are one of the anonymous bodies named in that report as having put money into the club ?

[blueblood]

I wonder if the FAI are one of the anonymous bodies named in that report as having put money into the club ?

Anonymous investors, what's the worst that could happen there?

[Martinho II]

did DOC take over when Pat Devlin left at end of 2013 bray fans?

[sidewayspasser]

Anonymous investors, what's the worst that could happen there?

Portuguese coaches?

[ToberonaTornado]

This story not quite over yet according to D. McD on Twitter. :eek:


Statement from Bray players expected this evening - gather they are not all entirely satisfied with guarantees from the club

https://twitter.com/McDonnellDan/status/883025280406892544

[pineapple stu]

Portuguese coaches?
You mean Bray could slump as low as Rangers?

That's pretty bad...

[nigel-harps1954]

What's obviously happened, in my head anyway, is the FAI have dug them out by giving them an advance payment of their UEFA solidarity money. About €20-30k should see them through the next couple of weeks at least along with Connollys transfer money.

Instead of mystery investors, O'Connor has simply bought some more time.

[ToberonaTornado]

This story not quite over yet according to D. McD on Twitter. :eek:



https://twitter.com/McDonnellDan/status/883025280406892544

Squad considering options.....

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DEEnnd4XcAICnf0.jpg

[bennocelt]

Its the FAI lads, lol:D
Another fine mess JD has landed himself into

[gufct]

PFAI not believing O'Connor's Plan and have looked for cast Iron Guarantees from New Investors and the FAI by Monday. Another blow for O'Connor is that their next home game against CCFC will not go ahead due to Corks European fixtures .

[gufct]

http://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/soccer/soccer-news/bray-wanderers-players-refuse-accept-10751187#ICID=sharebar_twitter

[gufcfan]

I just can't see the FAI actively promoting supporter-ownership as a solution in the Bray situation, or any other.

The FAI is an organisation built on patronage, cronyism and unswerving devotion to its glorious leader. Supporter-owned clubs generally don't go in for any of that bullsh!t and aren't afraid to speak their mind on issues, so they would threaten how the FAI and Delaney do their business. Imagine if the majority of the league involved democratically owned and run clubs - there'd be a revolution overnight !

It's not the clubs being run by supporters that would directly threaten the FAI, it's the fact that they would immediately oust the league chairman once his re-election came up (or sooner if they could force it) and the LOI clubs would have a seat at the very top table of the FAI, one of the people that (in theory) appoints the CEO. They'd burn Abbotstown down before that would be allowed to happen.

[Ezeikial]

It's not the clubs being run by supporters that would directly threaten the FAI, it's the fact that they would immediately oust the league chairman once his re-election came up (or sooner if they could force it) and the LOI clubs would have a seat at the very top table of the FAI, one of the people that (in theory) appoints the CEO. They'd burn Abbotstown down before that would be allowed to happen.

What is the definition of a supporter?

Andy Connolly & Paul Brown, the businessmen owners at Dundalk - are they supporters or investors?
How do you view Ray Wilson at Shamrock Rovers?

What is it that sets supporter-run clubs apart from other models?

[sullanefc]

What is it that sets supporter-run clubs apart from other models?

Democracy.

[Philosophizer]

What is it that sets supporter-run clubs apart from other models?

A club that relies on a big investor is always more vulnerable to a dramatic decrease in budget. All it takes is one guy to decide he wants to reduce or cut his funding and the club is immediately pegged back.

[pineapple stu]

Democracy.
Worked well for Bohs.

[Ezeikial]

A club that relies on a big investor is always more vulnerable to a dramatic decrease in budget. All it takes is one guy to decide he wants to reduce or cut his funding and the club is immediately pegged back.

I understand the concept and recognise the limitations, but how do you define reliance on a big investor?
I presume you do not think investment is negative per se - do you think clubs should only allow investment in certain limited circumstances where this "reliance" is reduced or eliminated?

Can an investor be a supporter?
Can a supporter be an investor?

What distinguishes one from the other?

Are there flaws to a democratic supporter-run model?

[El-Pietro]

A club that relies on a big investor is always more vulnerable to a dramatic decrease in budget. All it takes is one guy to decide he wants to reduce or cut his funding and the club is immediately pegged back.
This is the correct answer.
As stu mentions above supporter models aren't perfect, we have seen that in Athlone and Cobh as well in the past, but with a suppoerter model you aren't relying on a small number of individuals to keep your team afloat.

In our case of course the memory of financial difficulty is still so raw so our group is very cautious by nature in our expenditure. That won't be the same at all clubs but it is likely in the case where a supporters trust or equivalent takes over after some kind of disaster.

[Dalymountrower]

Worked well for Bohs.
Thanks for that.
Yes it did work well. We voted people in, they ( and us) made some spectacular mistakes, we faced the consequences, dug deep from our own pockets and began to discharge our liabilities arising from those mistakes. We learned from them, voted different people in, turned the club around on and off the field and now live within our means.

[pineapple stu]

It didn't work well. It cost you your ground.

You're right that at least the model allowed you to vote people out, whereas I can't see that Bray, say, can do that.

But I think it needs to be acknowledged that Supporter-run clubs aren't a panacea for all ills. The problem with democracy is idiots get a vote, and people can play to that.

They may be the best of a bad lot in terms of governance, I'll certainly allow that. But I think there's arguably a place on every board for someone who has no interest in football, and can more easily step back from the decisions being made and give objective advice.

[Ezeikial]

But I think it needs to be acknowledged that Supporter-run clubs aren't a panacea for all ills. The problem with democracy is idiots get a vote, and people can play to that.


This is a root of questioning and irritation. Many (most) supporters who post on the subject appear blind to difficulties and make far-reaching and romantic claims about the supporter-run model.

I can almost hear the terrace chant - Four legs good, two legs bad

[Dalymountrower]

It didn't work well. It cost you your ground.

You're right that at least the model allowed you to vote people out, whereas I can't see that Bray, say, can do that.

But I think it needs to be acknowledged that Supporter-run clubs aren't a panacea for all ills. The problem with democracy is idiots get a vote, and people can play to that.

They may be the best of a bad lot in terms of governance, I'll certainly allow that. But I think there's arguably a place on every board for someone who has no interest in football, and can more easily step back from the decisions being made and give objective advice.

Yeah, democracy is not perfect but is better than the alternatives as Churchill or someone said, (other than my preferred option of supreme oligarch,surrounding myself with yes men, sycophants and token females- loosely based on the FAI governance model)

[pineapple stu]

Supreme oligarchy probably works best of all if you can find the right people.

But usually you can't

[Philosophizer]

Supreme oligarchy probably works best of all if you can find the right people.

But usually you can't

That's exactly it. Yugoslavia was a huge success but only Tito had the personality to keep everyone happy and hold it together. Once he died the Serbs tried to exterminate the Bosniaks.

I think it was JFK who gave the "democracy is not perfect but it's the best there is" quote. It was a speech in Berlin after the fall of the wall if I'm not mistaken.

Anyway, I digress. I'm not against investors at all, but I think it's always better if the majority (say 51%) of a club is fan owned. Finanvial investors can come tribute to the rest of they wish.

[ger121]

Worked well for Bohs.

Did indeed. Sold the ground twice, ran up a huge debt, sold the ground again, debt cleared, still in ground. Democracy all the way....

[Seagull]

Another blow for O'Connor is that their next home game against CCFC will not go ahead due to Corks European fixtures .
It's on Sunday instead of Friday, hardly a blow. A strange part of this saga is the club's official Facebook page has been sharing articles critical of O'Connor, one with Dylan Connolly who calls him Denis the Menace and another with Keith Long which doesn't pull any punches. They also have the players statement up without comment from the club.

[sullanefc]

Worked well for Bohs.
They're still with us TG.

[legendz]

FAI have dug them out by giving them an advance payment of their UEFA solidarity money.https://www.thesun.ie/archives/football/216063/league-of-ireland-clubs-will-benefit-financially-if-dundalk-progress-in-europe/

Did the league get a solidarity payment of around €381,000 after Dundalk's progress to the EL group stage last year?

[Mr A]

Obviously supporter owned clubs can still make bad decisions and can still run into trouble. Athlone for example are at least in theory a members club but seem to be either a closed shop or there aren't sufficient people willing to become members and cause regime change. On the other hand those two lads in Dundalk could in theory take the Euro money once it hits the club accounts and simply walk away. That would not have been possible under the previous co-op model.

Fan ownership isn't perfect, or anywhere remotely near it. And it certainly would be easier to have a rich owner who would pay someone to do the work I do for free. But on the other hand owning your club is a beautiful thing, even if it comes with responsibilities.

[blueblood]

Was the deadline close of business today for Bray/O'Connor to convince the players everything is OK?

[gufct]

Stuart Gilhooly PFAI Solicitor was on Six One News about Athlone and Bray. He said they had heard nothing back from Bray since Last Thursday when they demanded Cast Iron Guarantees to be forwarded by today and the Squad would be meeting with the PFAI to discuss their options tomorrow.

[Jofspring]

RTÉ radio saying this morning that the FAI are meeting Bray today about guarantees. Considering they were given until close of business yesterday is it a waste of time? Should the PFAI and the players make a stand today and say sorry, too little too late?

[brendy_éire]

Should the PFAI and the players make a stand today and say sorry, too little too late?

A stand how though? If they're still getting paid in full, on time, I don't think there's much they can do.

[Mr A]

Exactly. Even if Bray stopped paying after next week the players may not be able to get out in this window. But they have every right to be concerned. The statements from O Connor have been vague, contradictory and frankly aren't really credible much of the time.

A tweet I saw (private account so can't link it, but have heard story confirmed elsewhere) 2 years ago today Chairman was refused entry by the Gardaí to Carlisle, later got in & changed the locks. This has been a pantomime for some time now and even if the current situation blows over for a bit things will inevitably rear up again.

[Eminence Grise]

Should the PFAI and the players make a stand today and say sorry, too little too late?

This is no time to be thinking of stadium development, man!! You surely can't mean a stand on principle - in this league/country/day and age (delete as appropriate)?

[Seagull]

A tweet I saw (private account so can't link it, but have heard story confirmed elsewhere) 2 years ago today Chairman was refused entry by the Gardaí to Carlisle, later got in & changed the locks. This has been a pantomime for some time now and even if the current situation blows over for a bit things will inevitably rear up again.
I'm not certain but I don't think that's the way it went down. I think a shareholder (can't remember names) and a few others locked the ground, locking the O'Connors out. The O'Connors eventually gained access to the ground with the assistance of the Gardai and they then changed the locks. They (O'Connors) also lost access to the club website around the same time.

[Mr A]

Either way it's all pretty mental. If I were a Bray fan I would be looking to get organised and get a trust in place ASAP. Could make a big difference at some stage.

[pineapple stu]

Wasn't that the time a former director filed a form with the CRO appointing himself director and resigning the others? Completely illegal of course. And mental too.

[Mr A]

Jeez I forgot about that one. Hard to keep track of it all.

[Nesta99]

Wasnt some guy that ran the shop with programmes and merchandising locked out just before that or that he gained access and it peeved people off. It seemed at the time like the McGettigan backed people versus the O'Connors. It was coming to a head to see who would be in control on the match night and one side backed down.

[Seagull]

The players have all transfer listed themselves... https://theleagueofireland.com/2017/07/14/bray-wanderers-players-place-transfer-list/

[sbgawa]

Can players transfer list themselves if the club are not in breech of contract? What's to stop any player transfer listing themselves in that case ? I'm totally with the players BTW just don't see how another club can sign them legally.

[pineapple stu]

Thought this bit was interesting -


The players requested representation from the FAI at this meeting. The FAI did not respond to this request.
I don't know if the FAI needed to be at the meeting - probably wouldn't hurt, but the FAI could say the PFAI being there was enough for them - but they should have responded at least, surely?

[sbgawa]

Thought this bit was interesting -


I don't know if the FAI needed to be at the meeting - probably wouldn't hurt, but the FAI could say the PFAI being there was enough for them - but they should have responded at least, surely?

Don't blame the FAI not being there, this is a dispute between a club and the players, that's the PFAI role.
It shouldn't be up to the FAI to sort out stuff like this. but they should have responded pointing that out

[oldskool]

Thought this bit was interesting -


I don't know if the FAI needed to be at the meeting - probably wouldn't hurt, but the FAI could say the PFAI being there was enough for them - but they should have responded at least, surely?


considering the PFAI offices are actually in the FAI's Offices could'nt one of the FAI people just sat in on the meeting eating popcorn on their lunchbreak or something.

[pineapple stu]

Not blaming the FAI; I agree with your post there. It is a matter for them one way or the other, and if they don't want to attend the meeting, I think that's possibly an ok stance to take, but they should at least reply.

[Yossarian]

Can players transfer list themselves if the club are not in breech of contract? What's to stop any player transfer listing themselves in that case ? I'm totally with the players BTW just don't see how another club can sign them legally.

I agree with this, the players can't unilaterally transfer list themselves without the clubs approval. Even if a player does sign with another club, surely Bray can just withhold their registration?