Declan Rice

[jbyrne]

Feck all this 'I wish him well' nonsense.

couldnt agree more.
why would we wish any english player well??

[Razors left peg]

Genuinely think this is a disaster for us. He is top class and will probably be at United or City next season. Having said that, at the age of 19 we all thought James McCarthy was the 2nd coming of Gerrard.

I cant wish him well, I hope he goes on to regret his decision.

[Deckydee]

Hello All

Just want to give my 2 cents on this. Probably what everybody else is saying but this is how I feel about it

(Am very sad that a Declan (like meself) will be playing for Engerland) Boo! Also apologies for my comment above. Blood hit the brain a bit too fast and I was rushing off from work

So………..5 points

Point 1. It’s clear that since the new agent came in that Declans head has been turned and he would have mentioned to him that it would be more lucrative to play for England. HOWEVER Declan is good enough to play for a top team. If he was ever to transfer to Man City the wages he would make would be astronomical. Would it then matter who he would be playing international for? He’d make plenty of money, especially in advertising. Think of the possibilities? Ivomec F? Dosing cattle, sure Joe Cooney made a fortune doing it! Niall Quinn and that Lucozade sport advert? What about Jack and the TSB advert? Dennis Hickey and Wavin pipe? Jason Mcateer and Wash and Go? And let’s not forget Nicky English for Classic Cepravin (smashes mastitis) No shortage of possibilities there for Dec.

Point 2. This is REALLY not good for the future. What I mean is that, how many English born players are currently in our underage systems? Can they be trusted? Should we invest in them? Will they ‘pull a Rice/Grealish’ (copyright DeckyDee) and hop off when it suits them? This does not bode well for the future. It will cause a Lot of issues.

Point 3. Continuing on from what Mr. Kilbane said. I really cannot understand his thinking on this. If you want to play for England, fine, but don’t take 3 caps at Senior level. Underage, maybe, but not at senior level. He has turned our country into a joke, a doormat if you will. You kiss the Irish badge, you sing Amhrán na bhFiann and now he will turn around and sing God Save the Queen? Well, if it worked for Matt Holland…….All jokes aside, this move has truly sickened me. It will be truly upsetting when he will line out for England. What could make matters even worse (this was mentioned in the journal) is that Engerland could play in the EUROS at Landsdowne, imagine that!

Point 4. This brings up the question of being Irish and our identity. I’m a lifelong QPR fan and I’m over at Loftus Road now and again. Plenty of those their ‘claiming to be Irish’ but they only seem to be Irish when it suits them. I know of a couple of lads who support Ireland in the rugby and England in the soccer. I don’t think you should do that, in for a penny and all that.

Point 5. We really should be looking into developing our own players (yes, it has been said a thousand times) but we should. There is no structure and John Delaney needs to GO! Where are the grass roots? Do ye remember back in 1997 when it was said ‘Push rugby to the countryside’? Has it paid dividends? Oh yes!

Rant over

[Fizzer]

All of Rice’s decisions from accepting that first cap for us have been the wrong ones.I genuinely think he’s made the wrong one again.English players are treated with ambivalence by their own ‘supporters’ and at worst with outright contempt occasionally even sick abuse.Inexplicably, this is usually reserved for their top players.Rice could have been immortalized as a national hero for a country that would have worshipped him,but has decided to choose mediocrity and regular underachievement.Anyway, him and the junior PR clown that drafted that vacuous,transparent ‘statement’ are away off now to claim his blue passport or his jellied eels or whatever they’re offering so I hope he has a right royal cockney barrel of laughs with Gareth.
So long as we learn from it, this shameful saga may actually prove helpful to us in the long-run in terms of our policies re promising young dual-nationality players.We’ve two games against Gibraltar and I don’t see why we shouldn’t think about trying to get five or six under 23’s capped over those two games.Similarly,if we’re being bashed 4-0 as we’ve gotten accustomed to in recent times,great chance to give a young fella minutes on the pitch and save potentially an eight month circus in the future.If they don’t accept a call up,then no harm done.

[Deckydee]

' this shameful saga may actually prove helpful to us in the long-run in terms of our policies re promising young dual-nationality players' - Could not agree more!

[Deckydee]

Some good stuff here from Off the Ball > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3UAtNJLXV8

Harsh words from Kilbane! > https://twitter.com/VMSportIE/status/1095765533889318912

Harsh words from Breen! > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ab7oES-DgXM

[Diggs246]

The people of ireland really deserve better then this. Our fans are unbelievable, we travel to games via several airports paying out funds that most of us cant afford. We love our players even when we know they are often average, because we are honest and loyal. Declan Rice is none of those things. I know he is a very good player, but success without integrity is rarely worth it.

[SkStu]

I am honestly sickened by this decision. I posted on here that I thought he would stay with us. My thinking was that it would simply be easier for him to do the morally and ethically right thing in the situation he was in than to turn coat for a potential pay day. As someone said, hes good enough to make a fortune - in the Irish or English colours. Fizzer's post above - in particular the first couple of sentences - really hits the nail on the head for me. He has turned a nation against him, a nation that so badly wanted to worship him. We invested in him, the fans invested their hearts in him, we committed to him and he basically told us to "fck off". I am sickened. I really am.

[Fixer82]

I love that Breen brought up the Rugby team as well. International sport is an absolute joke these days with Kenyans running for Turkey, South Africans and Kiwis playing Rugby for Ireland, Japan and...well anyone really.

[geysir]

Anonymity will surely follow, he coulda' been a contender.

[gastric]

Tets, please move this thread to where it belongs - the rubbish section and lets concentrate on getting an interested player onboard - Ryan Nolan.

[Diggs246]

Tets, please move this thread to where it belongs - the rubbish section and lets concentrate on getting an interested player onboard - Ryan Nolan.

Agreed, give it 24 hours to let people vent and then flush it down the jacks where it belongs

[tetsujin1979]

quoting this to clarify the policy. The thread will be moved when the discussion has run its course.

Rice confirms switch to England
1095714256421560320
I'll leave the thread in the Ireland forum for now, and move it to Other Football when the discussion has taken its course

Please keep your replies respectful

[Eminence Grise]

He can respectfully go f*** himself. With respect. He's hiding behind a press release someone wrote for him today: he could have done the same thing months ago and shown a bit of courage and respect to his Irish team mates and the fans.

I'm English-born: proudly Manc but Irish through and through, so I get the torn thing. This stinks. I wish him no harm or misfortune but he'll have no luck for this. Good though he potentially is, we don't need him. More thoughts on this tomorrow. Maybe. If I still think he's worth it.

[Closed Account 2]

I heard Nike were pushing this, and it wouldn't surprise me if he got a bumper sponsorship deal from them off the back of this.

We need to start actively cap-tieing these players at a younger age. Throw them on for the last 30 seconds of "technically" competitive games (e.g. Gibraltar at home), then they're stuck with us. If they don't want to play those games then ditch them before we embark on developing them for another nations benefit.

[mark12345]

Genuinely think this is a disaster for us. He is top class and will probably be at United or City next season. Having said that, at the age of 19 we all thought James McCarthy was the 2nd coming of Gerrard.

I cant wish him well, I hope he goes on to regret his decision.


I cannot agree with that. I hope the lad does really well in his career. Don't think he'll be at United or City as they will buy big names from abroad and Rice doesn't have the technical grounding in the game to compete with someone like David Silva or Kevin De Bruyne. That aside, put yourself in his shoes - say with a job offer. A company which is in debt and has a shaky future in the short to mid term (Ireland) is looking to hire you. On the other hand, Amazon (England) contacts you and tells you if you join them you could possibly become a top executive at the company one day. You have allegiences to both. Pretty easy decision at the end of the day.
My only regret is that the whole thing was drawn out over 12 months or so. That should never have happened.

[paul_oshea]

To be fair, only Roy Hodgson and Alan Smith would call him that.
Nah it's a London thing. Room is pronounced womb.

I hate to be right again and say I told you so.

"He's sticking with us" that has to br some sort of foot.ie mantra or manifest :D

[paul_oshea]

Cascarinos piece in the times I assume it is was absolutely disgraceful.

I'm not too bothered about it to be honest because like with freakish I knew it would happen so it's not a shock. It would however been a great day for me had he switched to Ireland. I'll smile now when England get dumped out and he is getting abused by the British fans. And torn apart by media and former players alike. How anyone can be proud to be English especially in football I cannot fathom. That was only confounded when an English work colleague told me about his recent weekend away watching Dortmund.

Get the Nolan's and Johansson's in early. Cap them against Gibraltar. And the likes.

[samhaydenjr]

Feck all this 'I wish him well' nonsense.

I for one wish him... well...

Ok, cheer up lads, I've said this before but I thought I'd repeat it - we may have lost Rice, but in the last twelve months we've gained Robinson, Crowley and Lukas Johansson and we've held on to Obafemi, so on to the Euros

[Razors left peg]

I for one wish him... well...

Ok, cheer up lads, I've said this before but I thought I'd repeat it - we may have lost Rice, but in the last twelve months we've gained Robinson, Crowley and Lukas Johansson and we've held on to Obafemi, so on to the Euros
I was actually just trying to think a similar type midfielder in the underage set up and Johansson might be the most interesting in that

[Razors left peg]

I cannot agree with that. I hope the lad does really well in his career. Don't think he'll be at United or City as they will buy big names from abroad and Rice doesn't have the technical grounding in the game to compete with someone like David Silva or Kevin De Bruyne. That aside, put yourself in his shoes - say with a job offer. A company which is in debt and has a shaky future in the short to mid term (Ireland) is looking to hire you. On the other hand, Amazon (England) contacts you and tells you if you join them you could possibly become a top executive at the company one day. You have allegiences to both. Pretty easy decision at the end of the day.
My only regret is that the whole thing was drawn out over 12 months or so. That should never have happened.

Clubs need "home grown players", hence the likes of Fabian Delph at City. I do think City would look at him as an understudy to Ferdandinho

[tricky_colour]

Genuinely think this is a disaster for us. He is top class and will probably be at United or City next season. Having said that, at the age of 19 we all thought James McCarthy was the 2nd coming of Gerrard.

I cant wish him well, I hope he goes on to regret his decision.


Yes, it is early days for him yet, not every player live up to their early expectations. We have a couple of players ranked above him in the
stats so it is not the end of the world!
How many Gerrards are there? Not many!

[boovidge]

https://twitter.com/_DeclanRice/status/977287099849297921?s=20

This lad makes me all warm and fuzzy inside. Strikes me as someone you would love to have as a son. Based on last night and based on everything I've seen and heard from him, I can envisage a great 100 cap career for this lad.


Some of the posts earlier in the thread are brutal now :(

[boovidge]

Anyway as someone with a similar background to Rice I can definitely empathise with his situation regarding his national identity. Kilbane's simplistic attitude of "you're either Irish or English" is really irritating. However, to win 3 senior caps and then switch sides less than a year later is a serious dick move, especially after everything he said before. It's also going to prejudice people against young English-born players in our youth teams which I think is a real shame. What I would have liked from his statement is an apology for taking the three caps without being sure that he wanted to play for Ireland.

[Closed Account 2]

I was born in the England and have lived in the UK for most of my life. I have both a UK and an Irish passport. I don't go round wanting England to lose every game or anything like that, but I would rather have had one Irish cap than a plethora of one's for England. For me it's not 50:50, it's not an "agonising decision", for me it's not even a "decision" at all.

[Fizzer]

Yesterday’s events have clarified something for me. It is really important that our dual-qualified lads don’t face a backlash from this,Boovidge and others are bang on there.Poor oul Mickey Obafemi already had to deal with some of the fallout and did so with class and dignity.However, I really don’t want Bamford to get a shirt now.As for Redmond,he’s playing out of his skin but the fact is he’s just not Irish,I don’t really care what the rules say.Like in theory it’d be great to have the best possible starting eleven on the pitch but an Irish cap should be something precious and not a runners-up prize or something to be used as leverage in contract or sponsorship negotiations.One of the key things to our rebuild of the team has to be a reconnection to the fans.I think I’d rather see McLean kick the ball 20 yards ahead of himself into touch for evermore than have to read some gash about Will Keane retiring from international duty to prolong his club career.im not saying its logical or likely to bring us the most success but we deserve better.

[Diggs246]

Yesterday’s events have clarified something for me. It is really important that our dual-qualified lads don’t face a backlash from this,Boovidge and others are bang on there.Poor oul Mickey Obafemi already had to deal with some of the fallout and did so with class and dignity.However, I really don’t want Bamford to get a shirt now.As for Redmond,he’s playing out of his skin but the fact is he’s just not Irish,I don’t really care what the rules say.Like in theory it’d be great to have the best possible starting eleven on the pitch but an Irish cap should be something precious and not a runners-up prize or something to be used as leverage in contract or sponsorship negotiations.One of the key things to our rebuild of the team has to be a reconnection to the fans.I think I’d rather see McLean kick the ball 20 yards ahead of himself into touch for evermore than have to read some gash about Will Keane retiring from international duty to prolong his club career.im not saying its logical or likely to bring us the most success but we deserve better.

100%. We also need zero tolerance policy going forward. If you turn down a call up your Irish international career could be over that moment

[Olé Olé]

Also, saying he has "equal respect and love" for Ireland as well as England irks the sh*t out of me. If that was the case and the respect and love were so equal, then he'd demonstrate a bit of loyalty to the country that constantly picked and supported him.

[Olé Olé]

Sounness weights in: https://www.balls.ie/football/graeme-souness-declan-rice-405936

[Diggs246]

https://cdn-04.independent.ie/incoming/article37814917.ece/54a2d/BINARY/dec%20rice.png
a picture can tell a 1000 words!

[Murph 1]

Think Souness has hit the nail on the head, Declan Rice declared for England because of money, his agent and those 'close to him' saw the Pound Sterling signs and that was that. The reality is when it comes to mercenary issues-we will always lose out to England.

[osarusan]

"Mercenary"
"Using Ireland as a stepping stone"
"Hope he gets injured"
"Change the rules"

Some of this is very reminiscent of the kind of stuff that Our Wee Country posters get so lambasted for.

[SkStu]

"Football fans in hypocrisy shocker!"

[DeLorean]

Fellow dual-nationalist, Miguel Delaney, gives his take. Instead of tightening up the rules, he suggests they should be loosened even further, which probably won't go down well here - https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/international/declan-rice-england-republic-of-ireland-decision-west-ham-a8778351.html

[Kingdom]

A sad day....but perhaps it's a day that should've happened sooner. Let's be honest, at the very least we took advantage of the "Irish" network by nabbing senior stars like McGeady and McCarthy very early on. We've done it with others.
Of course it hurts, but it hurts on many levels.

There's a line in his statement that tells us everything:
"in all honesty, not one I ever expected to be making at this stage of my career". So he knew that the time would come that he would possibly be offered the chance to play for England, and he still pursued

There is an easy solution to all of this of course, for any future superstars. They are called in advance of a competitive international and told they're going to be selected to play. Bring the family over, huge honour, etc etc. If they decline the call-up you know they're un-interested. You drop them forever. Because what shouldn't be discounted in all of this, are the boys (and girls) who are not Irish-born* who every time they pony up to an International, will have people openly questioning their commitment. Who never wanted to play for anyone other than IE.

That's what makes me want to call Rice a c*nt.

[The Fly]

"Mercenary"
"Using Ireland as a stepping stone"
"Hope he gets injured"
"Change the rules"

Some of this is very reminiscent of the kind of stuff that Our Wee Country posters get so lambasted for.

I think the anger in this instance relates to the senior caps Rice has received. If his appearances had been limited to Irish youth teams, then the reaction would be limited to disappointment imo.

In regards to NI, I've always been of the view that Northern players who desire to represent the Irish national team should make the Irish youth teams/FAI their first port of call. If that doesn't work out then they can switch to NI if they so desire.

[geysir]

In his own head he was genuinely committed to Ireland. He's had his head persuasively turned towards the England team and he did consider that decision.. Playing for England is not seen by him as playing for an opposite dark force.
With Breen and Kilbane it's all black and white as if they haven't the ability to appreciate or value that there are different nuances to Irish identity.
Those two grew up as first generation Irish, both parents irish, lyons tea & kimberly mikado, GAA and summers spent in paradise. Obviously their Irish ethnicity is thickened. But not everybody has that fanatic upbringing.
Rice is 2nd generation and only on his father's side.
I have a 1st cousin once removed, with similar lineage to Declan and similar ethnic ties, he's certainly not a replica of his father's irishness, however it's about 50/50 but the default 50% would be English.

[passinginterest]

The three senior caps thing is definitely the most annoying part of the switch. Generally I can see why players switch at underage level, and I can see why the rule to switch after a senior cap makes sense for lads with one cap in a friendly. I wouldn't go so far as to wish ill on Rice, but I certainly won't be cheering him on in his career. I'd like to see the rules tightened up so it's any competitive senior cap, or more than one senior friendly cap that ties a player permanently.

[Fixer82]

Roy Keane and Ireland being openly trolled by West Ham owner now. Oh the humanity!!!

[TrapAPony]

Ireland need to start weeding out these dual national lads early on. For instance, Conor Coventry (just an example) at West Ham should be called up to the Senior squad and if he refuses then out he goes.

[Closed Account 2]

Ireland need to start weeding out these dual national lads early on. For instance, Conor Coventry (just an example) at West Ham should be called up to the Senior squad and if he refuses then out he goes.

100% this. This is the only variable we can control. Cap tie them early on, it feels a little like we would be hoarding players but it would stop this charade from happening again.

He was our u17 player of the year two years ago a couple of months later we played Moldova, we were 2-0 up at home, we brought on After for Hoolihan and Maguire for Long at the end, if we'd slung him on he'd have been tied to us.

[CraftyToePoke]

Moldova, we were 2-0 up at home, we brought on After for Hoolihan and Maguire for Long at the end, if we'd slung him on he'd have been tied to us.

MON hinted at something at the time, that lead me to believe he would have hedged, but equally that would be a better outcome than this. Also, and this is key, MONs subsequent handling of the Obafemi matter casts complete doubt on his decision making ability in these scenarios.

Cap them, tell them they are getting capped, call them out early I agree, with a tandem strategy of no second chances, if its us pick us but we aren't going to be an either or while you see how the career is shaping up. Take that off the table, even three months ago, and we would have been stronger in this. We have cards, so play them.

[jbyrne]

100% this. This is the only variable we can control. Cap tie them early on, it feels a little like we would be hoarding players but it would stop this charade from happening again.

He was our u17 player of the year two years ago a couple of months later we played Moldova, we were 2-0 up at home, we brought on After for Hoolihan and Maguire for Long at the end, if we'd slung him on he'd have been tied to us.

he had only played less than a couple of hours of premiership football at that stage from memory. we cant cheapen caps in the way you suggest. also, everything that Rice was saying and acted at that stage, and continued to do so after Moldova, gave management no reasons at all to be fearful he would jump ship.


Also, and this is key, MONs subsequent handling of the Obafemi matter casts complete doubt on his decision making ability in these scenarios.


Maybe MON thought the best way of dealing with the obafemi issue was to draw him out and effectively force him to announce there and then that he was fully committed to us. if it was the policy it worked

[Olé Olé]

It's what Wales have done and they've held onto two awesome prospects in Ampadu and Brooks as a result. You could argue both of those guys are on a similar level to Rice in terms of potential.

[livehead1]

Wales have done it extremely successfully.

I'd be more inclined to suggest you offer the call-up and if declined that's the end of the matter. It's likely not to be as clear-cut as that though, e.g. "I'm injured", or "I've just broken into my club side and want to concentrate on that", rather than "I'm keeping my options open".

I suspect what is so galling about the Rice situation is that despite what you can on one reading, take from his statement yesterday, up until England showed an interest he appears to have been determined to play for Ireland. At the very beginning of the speculation Rice gave an interview in which he said words to the effect that there was no decision to make. He didn't have to make that statement, and it's different to Grealish who never (as far as I am aware) gave a similar commitment.

There are lessons to be learned from the top down in the FAI. Should they have a policy similar to the Welsh, where they find these young talents at 16, 17, 18, and tie them early? In Woodburn, Ampadu, and Brooks Wales have potentially guaranteed a competitive side for the next 10 years. None of these were Welsh born. Something has gone dreadfully wrong with the Irish youth set-up over the past 15 years.

[jbyrne]

Wales have done it extremely successfully.
There are lessons to be learned from the top down in the FAI. Should they have a policy similar to the Welsh, where they find these young talents at 16, 17, 18, and tie them early? In Woodburn, Ampadu, and Brooks Wales have potentially guaranteed a competitive side for the next 10 years. None of these were Welsh born. Something has gone dreadfully wrong with the Irish youth set-up over the past 15 years.

what has woodburn done since his decent few weeks in autumn 2017?
brooks is quality but ampudu is far from proven. neither was capped in a game of any great importance by wales.

[livehead1]

what has woodburn done since his decent few weeks in autumn 2017?
brooks is quality but ampudu is far from proven. neither was capped in a game of any great importance by wales.

Woodburn isn't the best example although he's probably got a similar amount of international goals as Shane Long.

If I need to emphasis my point I'll add Daniel James at Swansea and Tyler Roberts at Leeds. Also stick Rabbi Matondo who joined Schalke for £10m in the summer. They're doing a far better job than we are. If, as it seems, the FAI want to recruit second and third generation players, they're doing a very poor job of it.

[jbyrne]

Woodburn isn't the best example although he's probably got a similar amount of international goals as Shane Long.


1 vs longs 17 for Ireland

[TrapAPony]

There are lessons to be learned from the top down in the FAI. Should they have a policy similar to the Welsh, where they find these young talents at 16, 17, 18, and tie them early? In Woodburn, Ampadu, and Brooks Wales have potentially guaranteed a competitive side for the next 10 years. None of these were Welsh born. Something has gone dreadfully wrong with the Irish youth set-up over the past 15 years.

I definitely agree that the FAI should adopt a policy similar to Wales. They need to smarten up re capping younger talent and weeding out those who are humming and hawing about playing for us at senior level. Call dual national lads up early and secure them or call their bluff. If they choose to opt out they should no longer be picked. The Jack Grealish saga was bad enough but this one really takes the biscuit altogether and definitely calls on the FAI to review the entire situation.

[pineapple stu]

Am I right in thinking that if he changes allegiances to England through FIFA, there's no coming back?

So it would be entirely possible that he could end up never being capped by England, but also unable to return to Ireland?