Declan Rice

[Cathalsmart]

https://mobile.twitter.com/Jayoconnor8

Interesting stuff here, looks like the one thing in our favour which wasn’t the case with Grealish is the family appear to want him to declare for Ireland, would be nice the WHU and the FA got the message and instead of focusing on this player why don’t they got I don’t know try get Ampadu to play for England...

[Diggs246]

If we take this guy back, the next thing we will have is guys who qualify for us, who will have about 12 caps retiring at 28 years of age.

[nigel-harps1954]

I think you can only empathise with the guy, he's in a tight spot and outside influences at play. At his age, that's not easy to deal with.

However, on the flip side, if he came back into the squad now, how much respect would he have in the dressing room?

[Cathalsmart]

Well he has quite clearly said he want to play for ireland, so with that in mind it would be great if the English FA could take a hint and **** off.

[Diggs246]

I think you can only empathise with the guy, he's in a tight spot and outside influences at play. At his age, that's not easy to deal with.

However, on the flip side, if he came back into the squad now, how much respect would he have in the dressing room?

I can stomach anyone leaving after underage appearances, we would be hypocrites to complain about that. ….But three senior caps... Jesus wept of the cross
The man has wiped his ass with our flag and has repeatedly lied when asked where his loyalties stood over the last few months. just google his quotes when his chairman suggested he would/could play for England

[tetsujin1979]

Cathal, Diggs, knock it off.

[seanfhear]

How much more financially lucrative would it be to be an Established England International both for the Player and for the Club if Selling .

Football is a Business .

[Diggs246]

Our national team is not a business. Our players arnt paid to play for Ireland. If he want money more than ireland Then why would we want him

[dr_peepee]

My work with Stephen Ireland’s career trajectory is done. I’m redirecting all my ill will to Declan Rices career now!!! 🤔

[liamoo11]

its a shame but i wish him all the best he will have an excellent career and I see no reason he wont win 50 plus caps for england. Hopefully we can show some grace and thank him for his service to our underage sides and not repeat the embarressing backlash grealish got

[Diggs246]

Liam i have to say I appreciate your humility. But I really dont agree. We have been used here and he has lied repeatedly in relation to his commitment to our country

[TrapAPony]

its a shame but i wish him all the best he will have an excellent career and I see no reason he wont win 50 plus caps for england. Hopefully we can show some grace and thank him for his service to our underage sides and not repeat the embarressing backlash grealish got

I certainly would not wish him all the best if he jumps ship. He would be worse than Grealish. 3 caps for us at senior level and then decides he is not Irish anymore. Integrity seems to mean nothing these days.

[Olé Olé]

https://mobile.twitter.com/Jayoconnor8

Interesting stuff here, looks like the one thing in our favour which wasn’t the case with Grealish is the family appear to want him to declare for Ireland, would be nice the WHU and the FA got the message and instead of focusing on this player why don’t they got I don’t know try get Ampadu to play for England...

O'Neill did admit that Rice's father wants him to play for us. And Gold did say he wanted Rice to be an England international. There might be a hint of truth in those tweets. But he's handling this really badly. We can say that we don't want him to play for us if he's not sure but he'd be a great option to have and maybe social media and wider backlash isn't doing that cause any favour.

Look, it's the lad's decision. But I'm very disappointed it has come to this. Don't know who I'm most disappointed in.

[liamoo11]

Liam i have to say I appreciate your humility. But I really dont agree. We have been used here and he has lied repeatedly in relation to his commitment to our country

fair enough but he has played numerous times for us since 17s and we owe him respect for that. Every player with Dual nationallity has this option we know this when we bring them on board as 16 year olds. We enter into it with our eyes open so I dont feel we can complain when It goes sour for us.

In our under 15s last season we allowed 2 lads to go over and back between playing for us and england and did the same with 2 different lads at under16. We do It in the hope that some of them will "choose" Us. Its like letting your missus ride your better looking wealtier sworn enemy for years cause you hope she will eventually want to marry you and then going off crying when she shacks up with him fulltime.

if we dont want this issue we need to Stop picking dual players underage and leave It until We are in position to offer them a senior competitive cap and let them come on board then or not .

[youngirish]

Likely his blistering start to the season has caught the attention of the English FA.

[Diggs246]

That is a gag right?

[Eminence Grise]

It seems to me that a system designed to avoid abuse is being used in an abusive way itself, and needs to be overhauled because of unintended consequences.

IIRC, a lot of the impetus for allowing switches of nationality came because, amongst others but principally, France were single-capping promising youngsters eligible for African countries in friendlies. The change allowed players who were subsequently never called up again to escape from being cap-tied, and put an end to cynical and strategic call-ups. Rightly so.

What we have here, however, is a young player who has appeared three times in a single season and for whom not being called into the next squad would have been controversial and unexpected. There is no question of his having being discarded, or of the caps he has won being exploitative: he has graduated from being an under-age international to a senior one seamlessly, along a path that is entirely normal.

He has had his head turned. It seems no more complicated than that. If this was a club versus club situation, we’d call it tapping up. It’s not allowed in club football: it shouldn’t be allowed in international.

The rules need to be rebalanced and at the very least, there needs to be


a minimum period after the last cap has been won (perhaps a full calendar year); and/or
a minimum number of squads for which a player has not been called up for which they were fit and available (perhaps 5 to 7); and
a set number of caps, even if all friendlies, within a given period (perhaps 3 to 5 over 1 to 2 calendar years) at or above which a switch cannot be made because the nation has demonstrated a reasonable commitment to the player

to prevent players, their clubs and agents cynically exploiting a loop hole.

I’ll be honest, I think O’Neill has been far too soft too many times and I’m mad as hell with him. Whatever about Kelly and Grealish they weren’t senior players (though we may yet regret his softly softly approach), and Alex Bruce and Sean Scannell were never likely to make another squad. O’Neill needed to show some balls in this case and protect the integrity of the squad: call Rice up and force both his and Southgate’s hand. The more he lets prospects pull out with no consequences the more it’s going to keep happening.

[the 12 th man]

In March this year Rice said.

"There’s no decision to be made. I have not had a call from the FA and England have never wanted me at under-age level — it’s always been Ireland.

“I’m here with Ireland and I’ve been called up by Martin. I’m really looking forward to this week and I’m looking forward to getting to know the boys better.

“No [I wouldn’t meet with Southgate], not at all. I’m fully focused on Ireland.”

[tetsujin1979]

There was a discussion earlier in the year on Off The Ball, and they mentioned what happened to Grealish. When he was coming through at underage levels, and even when he first appeared on loan at Notts County, there was no real calls for him to play for England, but when he started appearing, and scoring, in the Premier League, Southgate started to be asked why this English player wasn't in the English team, forcing his hand a little. I just wonder if something similar has happened here.

[irishfan86]

I don't get the criticism toward O'Neill regarding going too softly here. I don't think he has a choice. If he antagonizes Rice we will have 0% chance of holding on to him. Pragmatism is the name of the game here. Rice is passionate about playing for Ireland but he will naturally have a love of England too. He is half English and has been raised there, probably has mainly English friends.

It's not looking good that he will play for us now but I am hopeful he has opted out of this Nations League match to ward off the pressure from West Ham to at least show them he's had a good think about it -- and then perhaps he can link up with us next time out.

I'm sure my post will be seen as naïve in the extreme but some suggestions here about a more hard nosed approach or simply saying thanks but no thanks if Rice eventually sticks with us don't make sense to me.

Anyway all of this is a real shame as I was looking forward to seeing him in the green for campaigns to come.

[TrapAPony]

I suppose when you have tripe like this coming from David Gold today then you can see what sort of pressure Rice is under inside the club :

''My hope all a long has been that Declan first becomes an England player and then follows in the footsteps of the great Bobby Moore by becoming the captain of England. Born in England made in West Ham United. dg''

https://twitter.com/davidgold

[The Fly]

''My hope all a long has been that Declan first becomes an England player and then follows in the footsteps of the great Bobby Moore by becoming the captain of England. Born in England made in West Ham United. dg''

https://twitter.com/davidgold

Sounds like one of those Royal Navy ads.

[Cathalsmart]

Declan has clearly shown that he wants to represent Ireland so why doesn’t David Gold just man up and respect his decision.

[samhaydenjr]

It seems to me that a system designed to avoid abuse is being used in an abusive way itself, and needs to be overhauled because of unintended consequences.

IIRC, a lot of the impetus for allowing switches of nationality came because, amongst others but principally, France were single-capping promising youngsters eligible for African countries in friendlies. The change allowed players who were subsequently never called up again to escape from being cap-tied, and put an end to cynical and strategic call-ups. Rightly so.

What we have here, however, is a young player who has appeared three times in a single season and for whom not being called into the next squad would have been controversial and unexpected. There is no question of his having being discarded, or of the caps he has won being exploitative: he has graduated from being an under-age international to a senior one seamlessly, along a path that is entirely normal.

He has had his head turned. It seems no more complicated than that. If this was a club versus club situation, we’d call it tapping up. It’s not allowed in club football: it shouldn’t be allowed in international.

The rules need to be rebalanced and at the very least, there needs to be


a minimum period after the last cap has been won (perhaps a full calendar year); and/or
a minimum number of squads for which a player has not been called up for which they were fit and available (perhaps 5 to 7); and
a set number of caps, even if all friendlies, within a given period (perhaps 3 to 5 over 1 to 2 calendar years) at or above which a switch cannot be made because the nation has demonstrated a reasonable commitment to the player

to prevent players, their clubs and agents cynically exploiting a loop hole.

I’ll be honest, I think O’Neill has been far too soft too many times and I’m mad as hell with him. Whatever about Kelly and Grealish they weren’t senior players (though we may yet regret his softly softly approach), and Alex Bruce and Sean Scannell were never likely to make another squad. O’Neill needed to show some balls in this case and protect the integrity of the squad: call Rice up and force both his and Southgate’s hand. The more he lets prospects pull out with no consequences the more it’s going to keep happening.

That's a brilliant idea, EG, and will probably be the best, the most practical response to this issue. I guess we should allow Rice some time to make a final decision and perhaps it will end up more like the Scott Hogan situation than the Jack Grealish. But if he does switch at this point, it would actually be a particularly disrespectful thing to do, firstly because he knows how difficult the Jack Grealish situation was for Irish football and, secondly, because he was given 3 caps as MON tried to take advantage of a Finals-less summer to broaden options in advance of the Nations League, three caps which could have been used to give Kevin Long or John Egan more game time (or even give a run-out to Conor Masterson) and prepare them for the upcoming games.

[Fixer82]

And saw how first hand how poison it is, according to Shane Supple the coaching is pathetic and the players arent happy as well.

When did Shane Supple say that?

Source?

[Charlie Darwin]

When did Shane Supple say that?

Source?
He didn't, Cathal has a well-known vivid imagination on this forum.

[irishfan86]

When did Shane Supple say that?

Source?

Here’s a link to the article, behind a paywall:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/shane-supple-sees-way-forward-for-republic-of-ireland-hz0d8pj9f

[Cathalsmart]

He didn't, Cathal has a well-known vivid imagination on this forum.


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/shane-supple-sees-way-forward-for-republic-of-ireland-hz0d8pj9f

Who has the vivid imagination now?

[Deckydee]

Well said > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qm6a0XGq7fg

[paul_oshea]

I called it like I called Jack grealish at the time, in this case knowing if England had a decent world cup and Southgate spoke to him in August he'd have his head turned. While the likes of geysir and Charlie Darwin were coming out with the 'hes ours to lose' burying their heads in the sand.

And anyone complaining about what he has said etc hasn't a clue understanding the English language he's articulated himself very well use precise language at all times. Never commiting to us.

[jbyrne]

And anyone complaining about what he has said etc hasn't a clue understanding the English language he's articulated himself very well use precise language at all times. Never commiting to us.

and what about the three times he was capped by us.......... do actions not speak louder than words??
irish fans were fully entitled to believe that was "commitment". not sure you can get a better commitment to playing for a country than actually playing for it..... not once..... but three times!

[gastric]

Welcome to the modern world. A young 19 year old who might be emotionally loyal to Ireland pressured by his agent, club owner and English manager. A young man facing a difficult decision.

[bennocelt]

Because there's no story?

You think?:p

[Deckydee]

So much going on, on the web about this:

https://talksport.com/football/415873/west-ham-declan-rice-england-republic-of-ireland-sam-allardyce/

https://greenstreethammers.com/2018/08/27/should-declan-rice-choose-england-over-ireland/

https://www.herald.ie/sport/soccer/english-pursuit-of-rice-is-no-shock-37258049.html

https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2018/0828/988025-houghton-difficult-choice-for-rice-but-rule-not-right/

[IsMiseSean]

So much going on, on the web about this:
https://talksport.com/football/415873/west-ham-declan-rice-england-republic-of-ireland-sam-allardyce/


I wonder is Big Sam eyeing up the Ireland job in the future and wants to have Rice available.

[Stuttgart88]

I called it like I called Jack grealish at the time, in this case knowing if England had a decent world cup and Southgate spoke to him in August he'd have his head turned. While the likes of geysir and Charlie Darwin were coming out with the 'hes ours to lose' burying their heads in the sand.

And anyone complaining about what he has said etc hasn't a clue understanding the English language he's articulated himself very well use precise language at all times. Never commiting to us.I have been back over every page of this thread and Geysir hasn’t said anything and Charlie D said very little. I think you’re guessing their previous thoughts on this issue. They most certainly did not say “ours to lose”. Wrong player. 2 or 3 here were very positive on Rice’s status with us, a few relatively positive and lots haven’t said anything. So I don’t really see this as a Paul 1 – Foot.ie 0 situation at all.

For full transparency, I’ve personally always been concerned that this would happen. Despite some firm quotes from the lad, I also think he was on the record several other times and I was never fully satisfied with what he said. Stuff like “I’m just happy to be here this week” and even “looking forward to September’s games” could have meant the U21s (which he is also not available for now). There was a lot of scope for a U-turn.

In a private conversation with Paul earlier in the summer we both agreed that it was almost certain the FA will be getting on his case if they hadn’t already.

I said at that time that I was relaxed about Rice’s situation. I felt that “if pushed” I’d bet he’d stay with us but this was very low conviction. I was also relaxed in the sense that it didn’t warrant fretting about – whatever pans out, pans out. It’s not outrageous if he defects – he has been raised in England.

I think a few posters here were a bit too relaxed though, and dare I say it, naive – certainly with hindsight. Like Grealish and James McCarthy before him, Rice’s name barely ever appeared in the papers without the suffix “who can still declare for England”. I didn’t think David Gold’s comments in the summer were as ignorant as some thought. The current FA with its attention to detail in all matters relating to performance and recruitment and St. George’s Park etc is a totally different beast to the one we faced in the previous few decades. They still have plenty of dumbass blazers but on the technical/organisational side they are right on top of their game and it’d be daft to think they’d let Rice slip without a fight if, as assumed, they rate him.

However, where I think Rice is different to Grealish is that he played senior 3 times (and had never tweeted about supporting England at the Euros!). If O’Neill is to be trusted his father is a very decent sort and the family still wants him to play for Ireland. I think Grealish’s dad had his eyes on the money first and foremost.

What has changed since May is that he now has a new firm of agents working for him and they and the club are now putting big pressure on. England’s stock has risen since the WC, as has Southgate’s. That has to be a factor too, though how big is anyone’s guess.

I think Grealish was flipped quite easily. I’d guess that Rice isn’t finding this as easy.

[Stuttgart88]

Indeed, there is no way back from this. He should never be allowed to return. This all makes for very sad reading :o(

Kevin Kilbane - Not happy with decision: https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/international-soccer/former-ireland-star-kevin-kilbane-reacts-strongly-to-the-news-declan-rice-is-deliberating-over-his-international-future-37256102.html

Even after poor Gary Breen stuck his neck out: http://www.offtheball.com/Soccer/Gary-Breen-tells-Martin-ONeill-not-to-worry-about-Declan-Rice
(http://www.offtheball.com/Soccer/Gary-Breen-tells-Martin-ONeill-not-to-worry-about-Declan-Rice)
So much for this: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DlmoHW9WwAEepyF.jpg:large

I see where Kilbane & Breen are coming from but as each generation passes the bond to the aul’ sod dilutes. Even though Rice’s dad is Irish (as is Harry Kane’s) the days of the Irish coming over doing manual labour, hanging around in the Irish music halls, inter-marrying, going to Sunday Mass and then going to the pub in their suits for lunch and an afternoon on the sauce are long gone. Irish pubs everywhere in London are closing down. The Catholic churches near me in Kilburn and Kensal Rise are now predominantly attended by west Africans. 2018 is very different to 1978 and 1988 and the pull of Ireland isn’t as big as it was, and the feeling that you're a member of an Irish community abroad just isn't that big now either. Back when Kilbane and Breen were growing up I think the Irish in the UK had a stronger sense of collective identity.

That said, my own son knows he'd be walking with a pronounced limp for the rest of his life if he ever chose England :)

[DeLorean]

So I don’t really see this as a Paul 1 – Foot.ie 0 situation at all.

That's because it's clearly 2-0. :D

[paul_oshea]

I see where Kilbane & Breen are coming from but as each generation passes the bond to the aul’ sod dilutes. Even though Rice’s dad is Irish (as is Harry Kane’s) the days of the Irish coming over doing manual labour, hanging around in the Irish music halls, inter-marrying, going to Sunday Mass and then going to the pub in their suits for lunch and an afternoon on the sauce are long gone. Irish pubs everywhere in London are closing down. The Catholic churches near me in Kilburn and Kensal Rise are now predominantly attended by west Africans. 2018 is very different to 1978 and 1988 and the pull of Ireland isn’t as big as it was, and the feeling that you're a member of an Irish community abroad just isn't that big now either. Back when Kilbane and Breen were growing up I think the Irish in the UK had a stronger sense of collective identity.

That said, my own son knows he'd be walking with a pronounced limp for the rest of his life if he ever chose England :)

Anti britishness is directly proportional to English born Irish lads playing for Ireland :D

I think though the siege mentality and us against them and general anti britishness played a big part in driving the loyalties of irish offspring in London , manchester and birmingham, and then perpetual sense of injustice, especially with the bombing campaigns and the wrongful convictions. That feeling or sentiment has now gone and Irishness is less prevalent. Also the Irish coming over are moving to the fancy areas and mixing with all sorts and generally more into GAA and Rugby so the Irishness is lost on their children.

[Stuttgart88]

Many are even voting Conservative:)

Like that t-shirt with the 5 evolutionary stages of man (ape through to fully developed and upright human) I think in our case it's
Irish emigrant building worker
Irish plant hire company owner and local businessman
Better educated white collar worker with Irish parents/grandparents
English (American) with a quaint fondness of Ireland who now votes Tory/ Republican;
and then finally outright neo-conservative racist nutjob with a regular spot on Fox news

[Fixer82]

And saw how first hand how poison it is, according to Shane Supple the coaching is pathetic and the players arent happy as well.

I read that Times article.
Supple doesn't say the camp is poisonous and the players aren't happy. I didn't get that at all from what he was saying.
If anything, I felt he was having a go at the modern day footballer

[Fixer82]

I think if a player is capped in a friendly, he should have to wait a couple of years before he can switch allegiance.
The player needs to be protected and the country needs to be protected from players straying at their will.

If the friendly rule was in, we could conceivably cap a load of young dual-nationality players to stop them going to another country in a hope they might develop into an international player in a few years, which is unfair to a player.

I hold out little hope for Rice but that little hope is that he proves me wrong.
Seems like his agent and his Club Owner have his ear at the moment.

[Diggs246]

"Even though Rice’s dad is Irish (as is Harry Kane’s) "

Actually that's a common misconception both Rice and Kane's dads were born and raised in England.

[brine3]

"Even though Rice’s dad is Irish (as is Harry Kane’s) "

Actually that's a common misconception both Rice and Kane's dads were born and raised in England.

It's a common misconception that place of birth or where one spent their childhood has anything to do with Irish nationality law. Any child of an Ireland-born Irish parent is automatically an Irish citizen from birth, no matter where the child is born.

As for Rice, his father is Irish and his mother is English. I'm sure he's feeling torn now that he has to make a decision that will last for the rest of his career. I'm sure he'd like to play for both countries if he could.

[Diggs246]

It's a common misconception that place of birth or where one spent their childhood has anything to do with Irish nationality law. Any child of an Ireland-born Irish parent is automatically an Irish citizen from birth, no matter where the child is born.

As for Rice, his father is Irish and his mother is English. I'm sure he's feeling torn now that he has to make a decision that will last for the rest of his career. I'm sure he'd like to play for both countries if he could.

Sorry I stated that' badly, they were born in England and raised in England, but of course they could feel 100% Irish

[Charlie Darwin]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/shane-supple-sees-way-forward-for-republic-of-ireland-hz0d8pj9f

Who has the vivid imagination now?
Still you.

[Cathalsmart]

Still you.

If I was you I’d worry about my spelling before going after others.

[tetsujin1979]

Brian Kerr stirring the pot on TV3 just now, saying he doesn't think the uncertainty from Rice hasn't come from his agent, or the West Ham owners, or the England setup, and he hopes that nothing happened during Rice's experience with the senior squad so far.

Think that's really out of order from him, he's no idea what caused it, and now he's throwing something else into the mix just to cause trouble for the FAI.

[pineapple stu]

DIY SOS is on TV3 now?

[tetsujin1979]

DIY SOS is on TV3 now? sorry, it was Be3, they're showing Champions League tonight.
Keith Andrews in the studio as well