Declan Rice

[Olé Olé]

I know its a bit mental, but i emailed Palmer about the u21 regulations. He should know the rules before writing an article

Proper order. He could at least run the article by someone like Dan McDonnell, who knows what they're talking about, before publishing it. Or maybe he did and Dan hadn't a clue either.

The regulations are pretty obvious. You would have to imagine that there would be no way he could play for both England and Ireland under 21 within a few months.

[Fixer82]

That Kevin Palmer should have a chat with himself. I have to assume he's using the Daily Mail as his English reports: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-6203291/West-Ham-risk-losing-Declan-Rice-starlet-turns-12k-week-offer.html


Incidentally, I must laugh at the most Daily Mail paragraph possible in that article:
"Rice, who speaks with a London accent, qualifies for the Republic through his grandparents, but was born in the English capital to English parents."

I actually thought his Da was born in Ireland

[Olé Olé]

I actually thought his Da was born in Ireland

Nope. Both his parents were born in Cork though and I'm assuming he heavily identifies Irish, as a result, given that he named his son Declan, that he had Declan in with us once he could and judging by the smile on his face after the debut.

[Fixer82]

Nope. Both his parents were born in Cork though and I'm assuming he heavily identifies Irish, as a result, given that he named his son Declan, that he had Declan in with us once he could and judging by the smile on his face after the debut.

I can't help thinking that if England had had a poor World Cup that this wouldn't be an issue

[Diggs246]

I can't help thinking that if England had had a poor World Cup that this wouldn't be an issue

Don't drive yourself crazy thinking about it. The bottom line is, we bent over backwards for this kid, including bringing him in to train with our senior national team before he had even played in the league. If he defects he has let down dozens of people within our senior management and also within our under age set up, all of whom took a chance on him and gave him his break.

[mark12345]

ah yes... the good old rugby team (or insert whatever irish team is doing well at the time as a stick to hit the football team with) comparison. how many countries actually take rugby seriously?
and remind me again how many knock out matches our rugby team have won in a WC in 8 attempts??

A stick to hit the football team with? I am in no way hitting the football team. I am hitting out at those who are tasked with running the game in Ireland, who continually let us down.
The original point was about Declan Rice and why he isn't (or at least appears not to be) coming on board with us. If he has watched any of our games
of late, he knows that we are still way, way off the pace when it comes to the international game. He likely reckoned if he threw his lot in with us he
would go nowhere, whereas it might be a different story with England. I don't like the way he appeared to use people along the way, but that's the way its turned out.

As far as the Irish rugby team goes, they are arguably the second best in the world right now. You can talk all you want about knock out games, but to win the Grand Slam
in the Six Nations is something which takes a right bit of doing. And we have proved we can beat the best from the Southern Hemisphere also. I am not a rugby fan, but if I am honest
I really admire what the Irish team has done with odds stacked against them on several occasions. I could say the same about Ireland's boxers, amateur and professional. Sort of wish the FAI and LOI could show as much
committment to football in Ireland. I hear its changing with the youth which is good news. But it's long long overdue.

[jbyrne]

A stick to hit the football team with? I am in no way hitting the football team.

really?


Or maybe it was after those imposters in green shirts took the field in Georgia the following September?

[Murph 1]

Fully agree that not a whole lot more could have been done in bringing Declan Rice on board, He has played 3 times for our Senior Team and to defect now would be really,really poor behaviour on his part. I think this whole saga is intertwined with his ongoing contract talks at West Ham . It looks like we will have to wait for a conclusion to his contract talks before he clarifies his International intentions. I for one find this totally unacceptable.

[paul_oshea]

I think the rule needs to change around the amount of friendly games played in succession and/or a time limit of say 3 years.

If any player willing to play a friendly was told that he would then have to wait 3 years before he could switch, he wouldnt be so quick to use it as a stepping stone

[Stuttgart88]

Yeah some change in the rules would make sense alright.

There was talk on YBIG about Rice demanding considerably more than he has been offered by West Ham and that David Gold has made accepting his terms contingent on him being an England international, raising his market value. Right now I'm not sure what international jersey he wears will influence his transfer value. He's one of the hottest young prospects in the EPL and anyone can see that. If I was a buyer I'd prefer an Irish player over an African (due to winter ACoN duty every 2 years) and also Irish over English because he's less likely to be knackered every second summer!

[DeLorean]

I know its a bit mental, but i emailed Palmer about the u21 regulations. He should know the rules before writing an article

It might have had an impact at somebody at The Indo! - https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/international-soccer/john-oshea-hasnt-given-up-hope-on-declan-rice-choosing-ireland-over-england-37355645.html


There have been reports that Rice could be fast-tracked by England although any potential switch could take three months to process, while he would also be ineligible for England's U-21s in the current European Championship as he has already played for Ireland.

[tetsujin1979]

the original article (https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/declan-rice-offered-fasttrack-route-into-the-england-team-as-decision-looms-large-37352548.html) has been updated as well, from this

O'Neill later confirmed that London-born Rice had spoken to Gareth Southgate and his England set-up about switching his international allegiances away from Ireland and a source has now told Independent.ie that the 19-year-old could be named in the England under-21 squad as early as next month before receiving a first senior England call-up in November.

to this:

O'Neill later confirmed that London-born Rice had spoken to Gareth Southgate and his England set-up about switching his international allegiances away from Ireland and a source has now told Independent.ie that the 19-year-old could be named in an England training squad for a friendly in November.

[DeLorean]

My God. Our bullsh!t was exposed lads so we'll just change it.

[tricky_colour]

Why he would want to join a team that have not won anything for 50 years?

[tetsujin1979]

New contact offer for Rice, according to the telegraph: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2018/09/27/west-ham-make-final-improved-contract-offer-declan-rice-frustration/
Article makes the same mistake about him being currently eligible for England's u21 side

[Diggs246]

New contact offer for Rice, according to the telegraph: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2018/09/27/west-ham-make-final-improved-contract-offer-declan-rice-frustration/
Article makes the same mistake about him being currently eligible for England's u21 side

I wonder if he accepts the new deal, will we have answer next week

[marinobohs]

the original article (https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/declan-rice-offered-fasttrack-route-into-the-england-team-as-decision-looms-large-37352548.html) has been updated as well, from this

to this:

Would playing for England in a friendly not still leave him eligible to play for Ireland ? is it not only competitive matches that 'commit' a player ? (similar to his games for us)

[tetsujin1979]

honestly, I don't know. But I think he'd have to change his registration to play for England, which would render him ineligible.

[Diggs246]

Would playing for England in a friendly not still leave him eligible to play for Ireland ? is it not only competitive matches that 'commit' a player ? (similar to his games for us)

Once FIFA rubber stamp his registration he is gone regardless of playing for England. a player can only apply to officially change association once ie he cant change back

[Diggs246]

I was just looking at Declan Rice page on theother forum ybig.ie and we should give ourselves a pat on the back….. as they are talking dog Sh*t … literally

[CraftyToePoke]

I was just looking at Declan Rice page on theother forum ybig.ie and we should give ourselves a pat on the back….. as they are talking dog Sh*t … literally

The great where's all the white dogsh*it these days debate.

At least there is life on there, its nonsense quality wise compared to here, but on here really aint what it used to be.

[Fizzer]

Checked that out,they really are! A few saying that if there’s no news by Thursday we should make his mind up for him.I’d be inclined to agree.His behavior is very poor,yeah he’s young but he’s an adult,it would appear to me that he was overtly conscious that the friendly caps wouldn’t tie him and possibly would serve to call England’s bluff to an extent,which it has done.If that is the case,then its dreadful treatment of the country.Even he does declare for us,which seems highly unlikely,I have serious reservations about him.He could have captained us to a couple of World Cup qualifications and been a national hero but he’s fckd that up completely.Its a shame that a lot of this ‘dilemma’ may lie in the English World Cup campaign which was clearly based on straightforward fixtures and not some Gareth Southgate‘revolution’.Rice is a very,very good player and will most likely get even better,but he’ll soon be getting booed off the Wembley pitch with the rest of them.The Grealish and Kelly situations were bad but this really does suck.
I would hope something could be done to avoid something like this again.Very difficult to solve but one possibility (which will never happen)might be to take advantage of the nations cup games coming up and accept that we’ve been battered off the pitch by both teams recently.Call up all those dual-eligibility players in the under-23 premier league squads and tie them down.If they don’t accept a call-up,forget them.

[Stuttgart88]

I don't think we should do anything rash even if he sits out the October squads. We don't know whats driving all this. Is he just simply torn, is he under pressure from his club during his contract renegotiation, does he think Keane is an aggressive moron, does he think MON is a dinosaur, does he think Steve Walford looks like a pimp...?

[TrapAPony]

I don't think we should do anything rash even if he sits out the October squads. We don't know whats driving all this.?

We had this stringing along rubbish with Grealish already. If he is not in Thursday's squad then we have lost him. I am fully expecting MON to say that Rice needs more time..blah blah blah..when in reality he is not coming back...IMO.

[jbyrne]

I would hope something could be done to avoid something like this again.Very difficult to solve but one possibility (which will never happen)might be to take advantage of the nations cup games coming up and accept that we’ve been battered off the pitch by both teams recently.Call up all those dual-eligibility players in the under-23 premier league squads and tie them down.If they don’t accept a call-up,forget them.

we should never cheapen playing for our country in this way

[CraftyToePoke]

We had this stringing along rubbish with Grealish already. If he is not in Thursday's squad then we have lost him. I am fully expecting MON to say that Rice needs more time..blah blah blah..when in reality he is not coming back...IMO.

Yeah, its this pretence we are some kind of equal opportunity option he needs time to chose between, we aren't, we really are not in this race, lets face it, if, if it's purely the case that the FA have turned his head with little bit of attention to him for the first time ever, after years with us and three senior caps. Unless MON has some very credible assurances this is purely contract related, and is going to end in our favour, we should admit our situation, and bow out, close the door Thursday unless he can name him, there would be more dignity in it for us. Its galling, its torturous, make it stop.

And does anyone here think the MON we have come to know recently, & his tenure generally, would have that kind of a handle on this ? Doubtful, isn't it.

[Diggs246]

we should never cheapen playing for our country in this way

Id add to that, the philosophy of sneakily "cup tying" a player in injury time against Moldova or the like, isnt a sustainable model going forward and it also cheapens our national team

[Fizzer]

Would the goal not be to prevent 19 year olds from cheapening the national team? Rice has Irish senior caps.When he deigns to finally declare that he’s bailed have those caps not been cheapened? The suggestion was admittedly drastic and partly tongue in cheek but there must be some way to avoid what’s happened happening again or at least reducing the risk.

[CraftyToePoke]

Would the goal not be to prevent 19 year olds from cheapening the national team?

I think so too, you wouldn't end up cheapening anything in comparison to how it will be degraded by a defection like this if he goes. You make the guy aware he will likely come off the bench if the game goes to plan, in good time, congratulate him with a smile, then when you get some bullsh*t sick note from his club, but he remarkably plays club ball either side of the International break, you know what you have, a cuckoos egg in the nest. And move on.

If he accepts the call up, you also know what you have, even if you end up not actually playing him after all.

Without some kind of tweak to the rules from FIFA, how else can we avoid these ? Because we do need to.

[marinobohs]

There is zero chance of FIFA changing this, unless to make it more easy to switch. freedom of movement of workers, maximizing career opportunities etc would prevent them even trying. Sure, how many Brazilians play for other countries already ? the only way is to do what we always did - maximize the attraction of playing for Ireland and focus on getting those that we can. traditionally the likes of Aldridge, Townsend, McDonagh etc would have had little link with Ireland until they were 'discovered'. Given the chance to play for England none of them would have worn green (and it would have been a quick choice).


we 'poach' Norn Iron players, have poached England players for decades and now England poach Grealish and (probably) Rice - both born in England, and we call 'foul'. if players choose not to play for us, move on.

To do this we need to restore the team spirit that was such a factor is previously successful teams, even if that means a change in management.

[Diggs246]

There is zero chance of FIFA changing this, unless to make it more easy to switch. freedom of movement of workers, maximizing career opportunities etc would prevent them even trying. Sure, how many Brazilians play for other countries already ? the only way is to do what we always did - maximize the attraction of playing for Ireland and focus on getting those that we can. traditionally the likes of Aldridge, Townsend, McDonagh etc would have had little link with Ireland until they were 'discovered'. Given the chance to play for England none of them would have worn green (and it would have been a quick choice).


we 'poach' Norn Iron players, have poached England players for decades and now England poach Grealish and (probably) Rice - both born in England, and we call 'foul'. if players choose not to play for us, move on.

To do this we need to restore the team spirit that was such a factor is previously successful teams, even if that means a change in management.

Its the senior caps that are making people vomit. Imo

[Stuttgart88]

There is zero chance of FIFA changing this, unless to make it more easy to switch. freedom of movement of workers, maximizing career opportunities etc would prevent them even trying. Sure, how many Brazilians play for other countries already ? the only way is to do what we always did - maximize the attraction of playing for Ireland and focus on getting those that we can. traditionally the likes of Aldridge, Townsend, McDonagh etc would have had little link with Ireland until they were 'discovered'. Given the chance to play for England none of them would have worn green (and it would have been a quick choice).


we 'poach' Norn Iron players, have poached England players for decades and now England poach Grealish and (probably) Rice - both born in England, and we call 'foul'. if players choose not to play for us, move on.

To do this we need to restore the team spirit that was such a factor is previously successful teams, even if that means a change in management.

Freedom of movement and restriction of career opportunities aren't considerations. There's ample case law, at the EU level anyway, that shows that rules that might be seen as restrictive practice in normal industries but which are necessary for the efficient workings and integrity of sport can be kept in place. It's all about how legitimate the restriction is, and how proportional it is.


I see the argument that Rice is cheapening the honour and also the idea of cup tying players but let's face it we're happy to poach from other associations. We win some, we lose some.

[Stuttgart88]

Yeah, its this pretence we are some kind of equal opportunity option he needs time to chose between, we aren't, we really are not in this race, lets face it, if, if it's purely the case that the FA have turned his head with little bit of attention to him for the first time ever, after years with us and three senior caps. Unless MON has some very credible assurances this is purely contract related, and is going to end in our favour, we should admit our situation, and bow out, close the door Thursday unless he can name him, there would be more dignity in it for us. Its galling, its torturous, make it stop.

And does anyone here think the MON we have come to know recently, & his tenure generally, would have that kind of a handle on this ? Doubtful, isn't it.

“O'Neill, who was left waiting by Jack Grealish for a year before the Aston Villa man switched to England, insists the start of the next Euro qualifiers in March is the cut-off for Rice to solve his dilemma.”

https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/international-soccer/declan-rice-to-continue-international-exile-for-nations-league-showdown-against-wales-and-denmark-37370706.html

[DeLorean]

we 'poach' Norn Iron players, have poached England players for decades and now England poach Grealish and (probably) Rice - both born in England, and we call 'foul'. if players choose not to play for us, move on.

I don't think anybody is calling 'foul', we are all well aware of the rules and how we have benefited from same. That's not to say we can't discuss best practice to protect ourselves from such scenarios in the future.

Obviously this episode is particularly tough to take given the potential of the player involved and enthusiasm with which he represented us up as far as and including senior level. But if he deflects, clearly it's all above board and we'll just have to take our medicine.

[DeLorean]

“O'Neill, who was left waiting by Jack Grealish for a year before the Aston Villa man switched to England, insists the start of the next Euro qualifiers in March is the cut-off for Rice to solve his dilemma.”

Forgive me if I don't just take Fallon's word for this without so much as a quote from MON.

[Diggs246]

Forgive me if I don't just take Fallon's word for this without so much as a quote from MON.

Btw Rice himself is a world class sociopath. All those quotes of loyalty and honour were disingenuous to say the least. He asked the media after an u21 fixture not to ask questions about his allegiance and then he went on to play for the senior team against US. Why ask the press that? Unless you know you have a plan to leave. Am I wrong?

[tetsujin1979]

Yes, yes you are.

[marinobohs]

I don't think anybody is calling 'foul', we are all well aware of the rules and how we have benefited from same. That's not to say we can't discuss best practice to protect ourselves from such scenarios in the future.

Obviously this episode is particularly tough to take given the potential of the player involved and enthusiasm with which he represented us up as far as and including senior level. But if he deflects, clearly it's all above board and we'll just have to take our medicine.

Which is pretty much the point I was addressing. The team spirit and togetherness of previous teams has often been referenced as an attraction by former players (including many who 'defected' to us) and I believe this is what we should focus on to recruit players with more than one option. Looking to change rules or expecting FIFA to change rules is unlikely to happen.

I would not be sure the current management set up is best placed to generate such an scenario.

[paul_oshea]

I'm sure in this case he is correct as its probably fairly common knowledge among journos at this stage, but fallon really shouldn't be writing any "breaking" stories anymore. He has lost all credibility, not sure he had any to start with actually.

[Stuttgart88]

Which is pretty much the point I was addressing. The team spirit and togetherness of previous teams has often been referenced as an attraction by former players (including many who 'defected' to us) and I believe this is what we should focus on to recruit players with more than one option. Looking to change rules or expecting FIFA to change rules is unlikely to happen.

I would not be sure the current management set up is best placed to generate such an scenario.

After the Welsh defeat a few ex-pros (Cunningham, Breen and Andrews) were saying on the OTB podcast that this "USP" is diminishing in importance, simply because they hear (or equally plausibly are just guessing) that the atmosphere in the squad isn't great and they don't rate the management set up.

[osarusan]

I see the argument that Rice is cheapening the honour and also the idea of cup tying players but let's face it we're happy to poach from other associations. We win some, we lose some.
Yeah, this is my take on it too.

We didn't seem to be too bothered by the cheapening of the honour when Alex Bruce chose us over Northern Ireland "purely because I think they are a better team", for example. Naturally, it's much more of an issue when we are losing a player in this way than gaining one.

[TrapAPony]

“O'Neill, who was left waiting by Jack Grealish for a year before the Aston Villa man switched to England, insists the start of the next Euro qualifiers in March is the cut-off for Rice to solve his dilemma.”

https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/international-soccer/declan-rice-to-continue-international-exile-for-nations-league-showdown-against-wales-and-denmark-37370706.html

MON is in fairyland if he thinks Rice is going to come back to Ireland in March. I am sickened that Ireland have somehow managed to lose yet another top prospect but one cannot blame Southgate as he is doing what he is paid to do for his country. From now on, Ireland should cap any young dual player showing potential in the 90th minute of a competitive match. We need to be cynical. I don't care what the small few say about the so called ''cheapening an Irish cap''..Secure them for the future just like the much smarter Welsh.

[Diggs246]

]Yes, yes you are.[/QUOTE]

Like the last time, remember I said there was something wrong when Mon felt the need to have face to face meeting with Rice before the last squad announcement and you felt I way off the mark. Am i wrong?

[paul_oshea]

No, No youre not.

[CraftyToePoke]

Yes, yes you are.


Like the last time, remember I said there was something]wrong when Mon felt the need to have face to face meeting with Rice before the last squad announcement and you felt I way off the mark. Am i wrong?

I was thinking the very same when I read tets reply to you earlier, he cut you down then and for some reason, again today.


Because there's no story?

And again today, you are right, a guy belting out a national anthem, in an alien language, while requesting no such questions from journalists, add in a bit of badge kissing, is definitely not normal, I'm not qualified to say its sociopathic, but its something, a wrong upstairs thing.

[Deckydee]

The English are confident (https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/west-ham-s-declan-rice-asks-for-more-time-to-choose-between-england-and-ireland-a3951126.html)

Also, good article here (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/declan-rice-rejects-ireland-again-xwzczcd6h), but can only read half of it

[tricky_colour]

Looks like he is a gonna but it must be difficult for him, I'd bet his dad supports Ireland 100%

[dr_peepee]

All the pantomime booing and hissing aside, he’s only 19. The only thing i’d resent him for is if he doesn’t **** or get off the pot. Soon.

[Fizzer]

How soon?

[Cathalsmart]

More like West Ham want more time to bully him into a decision.